Discussion:
Is the New Jerusalem a literal city?
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Pastor Dave
2006-06-16 02:46:38 UTC
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Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Most people are waiting for this world to be destroyed
and a new world to be created, that they believe they
will live on, with regenerated, physical bodies.

I would suggest that, "flesh and blood cannot inherit
the Kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50) and also that
"the Kingdom of God is within us" (Luke 17:20-21),
not outside of us.

Anyway, after this supposedly physical "new heaven
and earth", they believe that a physically literal city,
called the "New Jerusalem", will literally come down
out of the sky, to be where the old Jerusalem was and
that God and Jesus will live in it, here on Earth. Of
course that leaves us with the question of what will
happen to the Holy Spirit, but that's another story. :)

Don't get me wrong folks, I'm not trying to point a
judgmental finger at anyone. I was taught to read it
that way also. But I had a hard time with reconciling
certain verses that spoke of certain time frames and so,
once I investigated them, it caused me to look again at
certain passages that seem to be cornerstones of futurist
doctrines. And in investigating them and reading them
without reading these futurist doctrines back into the
passages, I found that a whole different picture emerged!

You see, we are taught in the modern church and by the
Christian TV shows and books, that this is what the Bible
is saying and because Revelation is really the hardest
book to understand, when you have a futurist view,
people tend to shy away from studying it and rely on
what these other sources say and when they read the
couple of passages that are quoted out of context, or
only half of a verse is quoted, they open their Bibles up
to Revelation and say to themselves, "Yup, there it is,
just like he/she said!" and don't investigate any further
than that. (:

Again, I'm not judging anyone. I am simply stating a
fact, which I know that years ago, I also was guilty of.
But once I decided that I needed to know the truth
about these "end times" passages, I prayed and asked
God to show me the truth, whatever it was and to help
me not to read someone's doctrine back into the
Scriptures. And as for Revelation 21 (and many other
passages), that is exactly what happened, praise God! :)

And so my question is, by what Scriptural authority
do they believe this New Jerusalem is a physically
literal city? Do the Scriptures actually teach that?

The believers in this, who are Futurists and whom
I call "end timers", cite Revelation 21:1-2,9-27 as
proof for their belief, since it mentions this city,
the New Jerusalem and gives what appears to be
a description of a physical city.

I would suggest however, that this is not a physically
literal city and that it is a symbolic representation
of the Kingdom of God which is within us and cannot
be pointed at, which tells us that it cannot be seen
with the human eye.

It seems to me that Jesus was answering the question
about whether or not the Kingdom of God was a physical
place, when he answered the Pharisees, who did believe
in a future (from that point in time) physical Kingdom
of God and asked Jesus when THAT would happen.

And let us note that Jesus did not say, "But later, it
will be physical" in His response, so the "He was talking
about it temporarily being spiritual" claim doesn't work
and it simply adds to the words of Jesus and we certainly
don't want to be guilty of that, amen?

So let's take a look at what Jesus actually said and
let us not add to what He said.

Luke 17:20-21

20) Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when
the kingdom of God would come, He answered them
and said, The kingdom of God does not come with
observation;
21) Nor will they say, See here! or See there!
For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.

Now some will argue that the word translated as "within",
should be "among". That is not correct. However, even
if we did say that were true, that would mean that Jesus
said that it was among them and it would place it at that
time, not in their future. So that doesn't help anyone
get around what Jesus said, no matter how much they
want it to be about our time and physical. And what
type of approach to Scripture demands that we add to
what Jesus said, so that we can believe what we choose
to, rather than submit to the authority of Scripture?

Anyway, let's look at some of the verses from these
passages, found in Revelation 21 and see whether
or not they support the idea of a physically literal
New Jerusalem, or if, as I said, it is a symbolic
representation of the Kingdom of God, which is
made up of the church, with God living within
us, as He promised.

But before looking at the passages, let us recognize
two Scriptural facts...

1) The Lamb is Christ.

2) The bride of Christ is the church.

Now let's take a look at the passages and see what
they actually tell us and please, read them carefully
ad prayerfully...

Revelation 21:9-10

2) Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as
a bride adorned for her husband.
9) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls
filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked
with me, saying, Come, I will show you the bride, the
Lamb s wife.
10) And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and
high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy
Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

Now let's look at what the above passages say...

1) The angel tells John that he will show John
"the bride, the Lamb's wife" (v9).

2) The Lamb is Christ. Therefore, the angel
is going to show John the bride of Christ.

3) The bride of Christ, as we know, is the church.

4) The angel shows John the New Jerusalem (v10).

5) Conclusion: The New Jerusalem is the church
and not a literal city, since the angel was showing
John the bride of Christ and showed him the
New Jerusalem.


Now after reading these passages, having been shown
these facts, what do we do with the belief that it is a
physically literal city? Should we hang on to it? Or
should we abandon it?

Well, that depends on whether Scripture determines
if our doctrine is correct, or if we would rather filter
Scripture through our doctrine and don't care if our
doctrine is in contradiction to Scripture, because our
doctrine is the most important thing to us.

Shouldn't we admit to ourselves that Revelation has
explained the symbolism of this "New Jerusalem"
and that Revelation itself tells us clearly that this
New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ, which we know
is the church and therefore, cannot be a literal city?

Or should we insist that Christ married a literal city,
because we do not want to give up our doctrine? (:

Those are our only two options.

But let us look further at this subject and lets look at
part of the description of this "city", since I know that
many will think...

"But there is a description of it. Why would God
describe it with these details, if it isn't a physically
literal city?"

Well, okay, but doesn't asking that question ignore
the fact that we just saw that it can't be physically
literal, because Christ does not marry a city? :)

I mean, I think it is clear that it is a fact that the
city is actually a symbolic representation of the
bride of Christ, which is the church. So while I
understand why you might ask that question,
wouldn't that question really be an attempt to
avoid accepting what has already been proved?
And attempt to get around what you now see
the Bible clearly saying?

But even so, let's look at part of the description,
just to make the point about the symbolism in it.

For time and length concerns, I will not go into every
detail of the description given, but let's look at some
of the important points in the description and see if
we can glean some information, that helps us to
understand that the description is also symbolism.

Now remember, whether or not you think each point
I make about the symbolic description of the city is
exactly correct or not, is irrelevant. My explanation
of this part is not being done so that you can now judge
whether or not it's a physically literal city, or if it's
symbolic. We have already settled that issue above.
I am merely at this point, trying to help you understand
what part of the description means and to further help
your understanding of these passages. In other words,
to help your study along, now that you can hopefully
see that the city is a symbolic representation of the
Kingdom of God within the church, which as Jesus
said, is within us (Luke 17:20-21, quoted earlier).

Again, I don't want to try to go into every detail,
since that would require many pages of text. :)

But let us now look at the city and see the symbolism
in the description of the building of it...

There are 12 gates (v12). They have the names of
the 12 tribes of Israel on them and the Gospel
went out to the Jew first. And Jesus was a Jew.
And from as early as Genesis 49, we are told that
what would happen in the last days, would involve
the 12 tribes of Israel, not the whole planet.

As a side note, the Greek word for the planet Earth
("kosmos", see Mat 13:35 & John 1:9), is not used
once in Revelation. At most, Revelation speaks of
the Roman Empire, the known world and the
destruction discussed is what comes upon Jerusalem
(spiritually called "Babylon"), which Jesus confirmed
in the parallel account to His discourse on the end,
which is found in Luke 21 (see Luke 21:20-22).
But that also, is another story. :)

The city has 12 foundations (v14), upon which are
the names of the Apostles.

Each wall is 144 cubits (v17). And 144,000 symbolically
represents the fullness of the Jews coming in (12,000 for
each of 12 tribes (v16), as shown in Rev 7:4-8).

And of course, we know that Christ is the chief corner
stone of the building of it. :)

Now let's compare Scripture to Scripture, instead of
trying to assume that man's doctrine is correct and
forcing Scripture to fit into that doctrine.

Ephesians 2:19-22

19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and
foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints,
and of the household of God;
20) And are built upon the foundation of the
apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself
being the chief corner stone;
21) In whom all the building fitly framed together
groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:
22) In whom ye also are builded together for
a habitation of God through the Spirit.

Hmmm...

Let's lay the verses out here together. I will quote
Ephesians again and place the relevant passages
from Revelation in between them.

Ephesians 2:19-22

19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and
foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints,
and of the household of God;

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven, prepared
as a bride adorned for her husband." - Rev 21:2

20) And are built upon the foundation of the
apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself
being the chief corner stone;

"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations,
and in them the names of the twelve apostles of
the Lamb." - Rev 21:14

21) In whom all the building fitly framed together
groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:
22) In whom ye also are builded together for
a habitation of God through the Spirit.

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God
Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."
- Rev 21:22

Now here we have Scripture interpreting Scripture.
Can we now admit that it all fits together this way?
Or will our stubbornness and vanity win out again,
because we want it to be all about us and we love
to think that it is all about us coming back to this
world, remade into a paradise, in regenerated bodies,
with no stain of original sin in us anymore?

That's a serious question, not an attack.

Let us realize that Adam and Eve had no "original sin"
and they lived in paradise, with no concern about death.

And what happened? Think about that for a moment
and see if this whole "Earthly paradise, in regenerated
bodies without the stain of original sin" guarantees us
peace forever.

And how about the fact that we are not only placing
ourselves in linear time again, but also God, if He
also lives on Earth. Huh???

It is "through the Spirit", as it says above.

Not "through the body", as we tend to want to believe.

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God."
- 1 Cor 15:50

Luke 17:20-21

20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come, he answered
them and said, The kingdom of God cometh NOT
with observation:
21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there!
for, behold, the kingdom of God is WITHIN you.

Let us also look at one more thing regarding this
supposedly physical city of New Jerusalem.

The belief of the end timers is, as I described above,
that they will live on a new planet Earth, in paradise,
in regenerated, physical bodies.

What is also important, is to note that the belief is
that at this point, all of the sinners are gone. They
are not on this planet anymore and the Scriptures
tell us that they will be destroyed, long before the
New Jerusalem supposedly physically comes down
out of the sky and even before the new heaven and
earth are supposedly physically created.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of
life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15

And Jesus told us that they will be destroyed.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able
to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to
destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

Now many quote the passage about "their worm dieth not".
But that passage says that THEIR WORM dieth not. It
doesn't say that THEY aren't destroyed.

This leads up to my point. When we take a look at what
the Bible says about the New Jerusalem, after it is
physically on Earth according to their futurist doctrine,
it tells us that sinners are still present.

Revelation 22:14-15

14) Blessed are those who do His commandments,
that they may have the right to the tree of life, and
may enter through the gates into the city.
15) But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually
immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever
loves and practices a lie.

So my question is, who are these sinners who are outside
the gates of the city, if all of the sinners have been
thrown into the lake of fire and have been destroyed?

One person suggested that it doesn't say that they are
right outside the gates. Nor even that they're on Earth.

Well, this only leaves outer space! :)

Now where does the Bible give any indication whatsoever,
that sinners are going to be sent to outer space? <lol!>

It doesn't, especially since they were destroyed and
shouldn't be anywhere! :)

What the end timers are waiting for physically isn't
going to happen. And what they are waiting for
spiritually has already happened, if they would only
accept it and partake of it.

"Taste and see that the Lord is good". :)
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

"What part of 'THOU SHALT NOT' don't you understand?"
Matthew Johnson
2006-06-19 16:01:39 UTC
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Post by Pastor Dave
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Most people are waiting for this world to be destroyed
and a new world to be created, that they believe they
will live on, with regenerated, physical bodies.
Already, in your very first sentence of the post, you are wide of the mark.

No, 'Pastor' Dave, certainly not _most_ people. Only millenarianists are waiting
for this. But since Catholics and Orthodox, when added together, outnumber
Protestants, millenarianists are certainly NOT in the majority.

Alas, having started out with this whopper of an error, your post only went
downhill after that.

[snip]
--
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Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
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