Discussion:
Was "Re: Why do bad things happen to good people?"
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James
2009-05-19 01:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Re: Why do bad things happen to good people?
Hello,

Yes, concerning the Bible's loving God (1 Jo 4:8), why does He permit
"bad things happen to good people"? After all, if you had the power,
would you not stop such things?

The Bible gives us the answer. God does have the power, but He is not
exercising that power at this time. Why not?

God permits those things to occur at this time because of some
universally important issues raised. One was the situation that
happened back in Eden.

God originally created man and put him in a beautiful garden-like
place that had all kinds of delicious foods. (Ge 2:15,16) God also
created man to live forever on the earth, IF he continually obeyed.
(Ge 2:17) Disobedience was the only condition that would bring death
and end his eternal existence on this earth. Thus in the simple
beginning, humans had all that they wanted to eat, and a beautiful
landscape to live in etc. That doesn't sound like a cruel God does
it.

When God created the earth and man, all His other living intelligent
beings, the angels, saw what He did. They observed the situation that
occurred in Eden. A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent), talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doing
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do better
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)

Eve took the bate, fell for it and disobeyed, and Adam later joined
her. Right then and there they rejected God and His perfect guidance,
and instead went with their own.

If God would have destroyed the rebels right then, all the other
intelligent beings that God created would never know if Satan was
right. Thus throughout all eternity there would be doubts if God's
ways are really the best ways. And intelligent creatures at times, no
doubt would forever challenge God's ways. So much for endless peace
and harmony.

Sincerely, James

If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I do
not follow all conversations in ng threads


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I read an article yesterday, "When bad things happen to good people," by =
m sarowitz, 2/8/09. In the article the question was asked, what is the =
point of pain and suffering? When people discuss this topic why do we =
always think there is something the endurer must learn? Why does it not =
address those causing the pain? They see the result of their actions and =
they still don't stop. In what way do people act comparatively? Why =
can't they quit when they have failed at causing the hardship or pain, =
or even injury that they intended to inflict?
This is all to say that there isn't always a point to the pain or =
suffering, and there isn't always something good that can be gleaned =
while going through them. Some might say it brings you closer to God, =
but if you need pain to walk closer to God, you have something to think =
about. Revelations speaks about enduring until the end. It was only =
stated because some will go through injustices, and those are times when =
nothing can be gleaned from the situations that they are forced to go =
through. You can't tell me God wants you awake all night, all day, etc. =
You can't tell me that God wants you to act in a way that he =
specifically said, or his mouthpieces said, you should not act. But =
this is exactly what is suggested when these types of situations are =
considered as trying to teach someone something.
Of course, we can't ignore those times when something is actually being =
said. That is between the individual and God, and he always explains =
why. But not even God would bring back a problem when he punishes.
Something to think about.
George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
2009-05-20 02:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by James
A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent), talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doing
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do better
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)
There is nothing in Genesis 3:3&4 that says anything about a
rebellious angel or Satan. I like the account about the serpent as
told in scripture, rather than the story that James made up. The
Genesis story is inspired by God, the story told by James seems to be
inspired by James. There are a lot of people who are like James and
who think that they can write a better story than is in scripture. I
have never seen one yet who improved on scripture.
g***@comcast.net
2009-05-21 02:06:27 UTC
Permalink
On May 19, 10:12 pm, George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by James
A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent), talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doing
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do better
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)
There is nothing in Genesis 3:3&4 that says anything about a
rebellious angel or Satan. I like the account about the serpent as
told in scripture, rather than the story that James made up. The
Genesis story is inspired by God, the story told by James seems to be
inspired by James. There are a lot of people who are like James and
who think that they can write a better story than is in scripture. I
have never seen one yet who improved on scripture.
While this is not PROOF in the strictest sense, it is persuasive to
many:

Re 12:9 =93And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.=94

Certainly the serpent in Genesis would qualify as an =93old serpent.=94
Here God tell us that this serpent is the Devil, Satan. Further, this
=93old serpent,=94 did deceive Eve and has been deceiving the world for
many years.

Gary McNees
George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
2009-05-22 01:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@comcast.net
On May 19, 10:12 pm, George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by James
A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent), talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doing
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do better
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)
There is nothing in Genesis 3:3&4 that says anything about a
rebellious angel or Satan. I like the account about the serpent as
told in scripture, rather than the story that James made up. The
Genesis story is inspired by God, the story told by James seems to be
inspired by James. There are a lot of people who are like James and
who think that they can write a better story than is in scripture. I
have never seen one yet who improved on scripture.
While this is not PROOF in the strictest sense, it is persuasive to
Re 12:9 =93And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.=94
Certainly the serpent in Genesis would qualify as an =93old serpent.=94
Here God tell us that this serpent is the Devil, Satan. Further, this
=93old serpent,=94 did deceive Eve and has been deceiving the world for
many years.
Gary McNees
First James says: A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent).

But you say Satan was the serpent. Being a serpent and hiding behind
a serpent are two entirely different things. There is nothing in
scripture that supports Satan hiding behind a serpent. Rev. does
refer to Satan as a dragon/serpent which is like the dragon/serpent of
Isaiah 27:1. Below I will explain how the dragon/serpent of Rev.
cannot be the serpent of Genesis 2-3.

Rev. 12:9 and 20:2 are ambiguous as to which old serpent was Satan the
dragon.

Rev. 12:7-9
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the
dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated
and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great
dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil
and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the
earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Rev. 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the
Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

The dragon-serpent of Revelation could well be that of Psalms 74 and
Isaiah 27.

Psalms 74:13-14
13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy might; thou didst break the heads
of the dragons on the waters.
14 Thou didst crush the heads of Leviathan, thou didst give him as
food for the creatures of the wilderness.

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong
sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the
twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Notice! The serpent of Genesis 3:14 from the day God cursed it had to
go upon his belly.

3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your
belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.

So it could not be Satan as Satan stands and walks! And the serpent
of Genesis 3 cannot stand nor walk.

Job 1:6-7
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves
before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the
LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and
down on it."

And again in Job 2:1-2
1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present
themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present
himself before the LORD.
2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered
the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and
down on it."

Satan is said to be standing in Zech. 3:1 where Satan stands on the
right side of Joshua and Psalm 109:6 (KJV) where Satan stands at a
persons right hand.

So Satan can stand and walk, therefore Satan cannot be the serpent of
chapters 2 and 3 of Genesis.
Bob Crowley
2009-05-26 00:43:30 UTC
Permalink
On May 22, 11:48=A0am, George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by g***@comcast.net
On May 19, 10:12 pm, George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by James
A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent), talked to Eve and told her that God had lied and that doi=
ng
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by g***@comcast.net
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by James
things her way could prove beneficial to her; that Eve would do bet=
ter
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by g***@comcast.net
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by James
if she decided for herself what was right and wrong. (Ge 3:3,4)
There is nothing in Genesis 3:3&4 that says anything about a
rebellious angel or Satan. =A0I like the account about the serpent as
told in scripture, rather than the story that James made up. The
Genesis story is inspired by God, the story told by James seems to be
inspired by James. There are a lot of people who are like James and
who think that they can write a better story than is in scripture. I
have never seen one yet who improved on scripture.
While this is not PROOF in the strictest sense, it is persuasive to
Re 12:9 =A0=3D93And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, ca=
lled
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by g***@comcast.net
the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.=3D94
Certainly the serpent in Genesis would qualify as an =3D93old serpent.=
=3D94
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by g***@comcast.net
Here God tell us that this serpent is the Devil, Satan. Further, this
=3D93old serpent,=3D94 did deceive Eve and has been deceiving the world=
for
Post by George the Guy Who Watches Terrapene carolina triungus
Post by g***@comcast.net
many years.
Gary McNees
First James says: A rebellious angel, Satan (cowardly hiding behind a
serpent).
But you say Satan was the serpent. =A0Being a serpent and hiding behind
a serpent are two entirely different things. =A0There is nothing in
scripture that supports Satan hiding behind a serpent. =A0Rev. does
refer to Satan as a dragon/serpent which is like the dragon/serpent of
Isaiah 27:1. =A0Below I will explain how the dragon/serpent of Rev.
cannot be the serpent of Genesis 2-3.
Rev. 12:9 and 20:2 are ambiguous as to which old serpent was Satan the
dragon.
Rev. 12:7-9
=A0Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the
dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated
and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. =A0 And the great
dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil
and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the
earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Rev. 20:2 =A0And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the
Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
The dragon-serpent of Revelation could well be that of Psalms 74 and
Isaiah 27.
Psalms 74:13-14
13 =A0Thou didst divide the sea by thy might; thou didst break the heads
of the dragons on the waters.
14 =A0Thou didst crush the heads of Leviathan, thou didst give him as
food for the creatures of the wilderness.
Isaiah 27:1 =A0 In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong
sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the
twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Notice! The serpent of Genesis 3:14 from the day God cursed it had to
go upon his belly.
3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your
belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
So it could not be Satan as Satan stands and walks! =A0And the serpent
of Genesis 3 cannot stand nor walk.
Job 1:6-7
6 =A0Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves
before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the
LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and
down on it."
And again in Job 2:1-2
1 =A0Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present
themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present
himself before the LORD.
2 =A0And the LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered
the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and
down on it."
Satan is said to be standing in Zech. 3:1 where Satan stands on the
right side of Joshua and Psalm 109:6 (KJV) =A0where Satan stands at a
persons right hand.
So Satan can stand and walk, therefore Satan cannot be the serpent of
chapters 2 and 3 of Genesis.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"Serpent" is figurative language in this context. Snakes / serpents
don't inspire much confidence in most people, since by the time you
realise that one is threatening you, its just about to strike.
They're hard to find, camofluage well, are often deadly, and strike at
extreme speed. It's not surprising then the ancient writers would
have used "serpent" to stand for Satan. Back then there we no anti-
venenes. These days they've probably lost some of their threatening
symbolism due to modern developments in medicine.

I lifted this off another site featuring an interview with an Indian
herpetologist (reptile expert). You'll notice how many people still
die in India each year from snakebite, and the fact it is associated
with gods and devils. That would have been similart to the outlook of
the ancient writer of Genesis.

"How serious a problem is snakebite in India?

The truth is when compared to many infectious diseases that kill
people like simple diarrhoea, the 15,000 to 20,000 deaths by snakes
each year is not one of the really big medical issues in India. In
fact, statistics indicate that you are twice as likely to die of
rabies in India than by snakebite. To me that's very scary! But a
snakebite is also a traumatic experience that many people in the
villages think more about it than about other diseases. It is still
surrounded by mystery and is frequently associated with gods and
devils."

I wouldn't go looking for a literal serpent inhabited by Satan. It is
figurative language.
G***@aol.com
2009-05-27 03:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Crowley
"How serious a problem is snakebite in India?
The truth is when compared to many infectious diseases that kill
people like simple diarrhoea, the 15,000 to 20,000 deaths by snakes
each year is not one of the really big medical issues in India. In
fact, statistics indicate that you are twice as likely to die of
rabies in India than by snakebite. To me that's very scary! But a
snakebite is also a traumatic experience that many people in the
villages think more about it than about other diseases. It is still
surrounded by mystery and is frequently associated with gods and
devils."
I wouldn't go looking for a literal serpent inhabited by Satan. =A0It is
figurative language.
I have, studied herps, taken classes in herpoetology, worked with
herps and published papers about herps.

Of course the book of Revelation is filled with figurative language,
and Satan is not a literal dragon/serpent.

I submit that the dragon/serpent/Satan could not have been the serpent
of the Adam and eve story, for the reasons that I have stated.

Also there is nothing in scripture, literal nor figurative, that says
any serpent was inhabited by Satan nor any other thing. I do not know
how anyone came up with this inhabited stuff.
l***@hotmail.com
2009-05-29 01:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by G***@aol.com
I have, studied herps, taken classes in herpoetology, worked with
This was prior to the fall. This was prior to the flood.
Why do you presume that what you study today did
not exist back then? Can you say, uniformitarianism?

2 Pet 3:4 ...all continues just as it was from the beginning.

but in the very next verse he describes them as being
... willfully ignorant, i.e. deliberately stupid.
SNIP
Post by G***@aol.com
Satan is not a literal dragon/serpent.
SNIP
For one to arrive as such a conclusion, one must
dismiss all normative reading of Scripture. To
be so demonstrative in your affirmation, you must
be God. You must know all that is and all that
is not.

You must also divorce yourself from both the
historic teachings of Judaism as well as the
Church, not to mention about 95% of historical
human culture.

You also illustrate naivet=E9 by dismissing personal
evil when we have a personal God. Of course I'm
arguing from a theo-logical perspective. It seems
that I could not use biblical proof as your method
of interpretation is emotive, not reasoned, not
scientific, not studied. You decide what is and
what is not symbolic.

Perhaps one day you will be able to Jesus what
a fool He was for thinking that it was a personal
evil, Satan, who tempted Him in the wilderness.
DKleinecke
2009-05-29 01:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by G***@aol.com
Also there is nothing in scripture, literal nor figurative, that says
any serpent was inhabited by Satan nor any other thing. I do not know
how anyone came up with this inhabited stuff.
You have raised an interesting question: Who was the first to connect
the snake of Genesis 3 with the serpent of Revelation 12?

If Victorinus of Petau (martyr 304 CE), our oldest commentator on
Revelation knew of the idea he does not mention it.

There is a Jewish apocryphon called "The Life of Adam and Eve". It
seems to have been written in the first Christian centuries (and is
known from documents beginning in the third or fourth). In it the
story is brought over halfway. There the snake definitely is acting as
the agent of Satan. It is not said to have been possessed by Satan,
but in antiquity the usual way to encounter an evil spirit was be
possed by one. A large number of the Christian faithful still believe
in evil spirits and still believe that one might become possessed by
one. I have assumed that "inhabited" is a synonym for "possessed".

Any Christian who knew both "The Life of Adam and Eve" and Revelation
might have completed the chain and made the identification of the
reptiles - one at each end of time. But who was it?
news
2009-05-22 01:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@comcast.net
Certainly the serpent in Genesis would qualify as an =93old serpent.=94
Here God tell us that this serpent is the Devil, Satan. Further, this
=93old serpent,=94 did deceive Eve and has been deceiving the world for
many years.
Gary McNees
B - then there are my people who see the story of Adam and Eve as one
faith taking over another.... The snake, symbolic of wisdom in many
traditions telling Eve to partake of something that she has a right too
when it's being guarded by a God symbolizing materialism and jealousy
trying to keep her from it and have it only for himself. The concept that
wisdom is only for a god and not human beings supposedly made in Gods
image. I am a Christian.

Bren
l***@hotmail.com
2009-05-29 01:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by news
Post by g***@comcast.net
Certainly the serpent in Genesis would qualify as an =3D93old serpent.=
=3D94
Post by news
Post by g***@comcast.net
Here God tell us that this serpent is the Devil, Satan. Further, this
=3D93old serpent,=3D94 did deceive Eve and has been deceiving the world=
for
Post by news
Post by g***@comcast.net
many years.
Gary McNees
B - then there are my people who see the story of Adam and Eve as one
faith taking over another.... The snake, symbolic of wisdom in many
traditions telling Eve to partake of something that she has a right too
when it's being guarded by a God symbolizing materialism and jealousy
trying to keep her from it and have it only for himself. The concept that
wisdom is only for a god and not human beings supposedly made in Gods
image.
Your syncretism was not shared by those who went to their
deaths refusing to burn just on grain of incense to Caesar.

Your syncretism stands apart from the Hebrew scriptures and
the giving of the Law, whose underlying purpose was to
train Israel in antithetical thought forms.

Your syncretism has no relationship with the Gospel of
Jesus Christ of the NT where there is but one and only
one name by which to be saved from the wrath of God.

yet you have to amend your comments by quipping....
Post by news
I am a Christian.
.... because what you espouse has no identity to
Biblical Christianity. You might as well call yourself
the President of the United States.

With no glee I say this, one day you are going to find
out that your wisdom was foolishness and your
syncretism will condemn you to eternal damnation
and torment. You see, God is holy and because He
is loving, He will allow no unholy thing into His
presence. He is long suffering in order that you
might repent of your selfish syncretic synergism
and turn to Him who has freely revealed Himself
in the Scriptures. But you refuse. You choose rather
to design your own idol. An idol made of wood or
stone was always first proceeded by an idol made
in the mind. Man cannot know the unknowable, the
infinite. God must reveal Himself as He is in order
for man to know Him correctly. Why do you
continue to stiffen your neck, Brenda?

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