" Language of God"

[Altway]

Open Letter To Dr. Francis S. Collins

Dear Sir,

I enjoyed your book "The Language of God" and thought it was enlightening. I
am in full agreement that Science and religion are compatible. Not only
this, they complement each other and are two sides of the same thing. In so
far as Religion is also interested in Truth, science ought in fact to be
included in Theology. However, I was rather disappointed at the end because
of what I regard as a serious error of thought.

You admit that God as the ceator of the Universe must be a Supernatural
being and yet you use natural reason, which is adapted to the created world,
to speculate about Him. In reality we know about God only because of His
revelation into our spirit.

The fact is that the doctrines of the Christian Church regarding the
Divinity of Jesus, Vicarious Atonement and Trinity cannot be found in the
teachings of Jesus in the New Testament, but are speculations 300 years
later, taken from Pagan sources - Mithraism or even ancient Egypt.

What Jesus taught was:-

"Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of
heaven, but He THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. Many
will say to me in that Day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophecied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful
works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME,
YE THAT WORK INIQUITY." Matthew 7:21-23

"And this is Eternal Life that they might know THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD and
Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent." John 17:3
"While I was with them in the world I kept them in THY NAME..." John 17:12

"He that hears my word and believes on Him that sent me, hath everlasting
life, and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death into
life." John 5:24

Note that it is not belief in Jesus but in the Father that leads to
salvation.

"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall
neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, WORSHIP THE FATHER." John
4:21

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship
the Father in spirit and truth: for the Father seeketh such to worhip Him."
John 4:23

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one,
that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Mt
19:17

Jesus did not do or speak of himself but what God instructed.
(John 5:30, 6:38, 57, 7:16, 8:28, 10:37-38, 12:49)

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is
just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which
hath sent me." John 5:30

"..I do nothing of myself; but as the Father hath taught me, I speak these
things." John 8:28

Therefore, if you wish to be a good follower of Jesus you have to "Surrender
to God".

The phrase "Son of God" is symbolic and refers to one led by the Spirit of
God. (John 1:12 and Romans 8:12) Jesus was called Messiah or Christ because
it means one anointed by God as in the following:-

"The spirit of the Lord Jehovah [is] on me, Because Jehovah did ANOINT ME
to proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart,
to proclaim to captives liberty, And to bound ones an opening of bands."
Isaiah 61:1

Even Paul did not believe in Trinity:-

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ
Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5
"There is actually to us one God the Father,...and there is one Lord, Jesus
Christ" 1 Cor 8:6
"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" Eph
4:6
"And ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's" 1 Cor 3:23

Thus John 1:1 should be "...Word was God's" [Theos=God, Theou=God's]

You also made a mistaken assertion about the view of man in the Quran as you
will find if you read the following verses:- Quran 2:30-31, 4:1, 15:29,
32:9, 8:24, 23:12-17 71:17, and 56:61

Yours sincerely,

H. Arden

[DKleinecke]

Post by Altway
Open Letter To Dr. Francis S. Collins
...
You admit that God as the ceator of the Universe must be a Supernatural
being and yet you use natural reason, which is adapted to the created world,
to speculate about Him. In reality we know about God only because of His
revelation into our spirit.

It seems to me that the error, assuming there is one, is not in using
"natural reason" (in fact, there is no other kind of reason) but
rather in "speculating about God" (I have removed the sexist
pronoun).

It would be far better for us, it seems to me, to accept God, in as
simply-minded a way as is possible, in the terms in which God presents
himself to us. I can see no reason, apart from morbid curiosity, to
lust for more information.

It is not a priori obvious that the Universe had a creator (use any
sense of that you want). But it is easier on the human mind (that is,
easier to reconcile with natural reason) if there is one. I agree
there is one.

It is not a priori obvious that the creator of the Universe is the God
whom we meet in prayer and meditation. Marcion, for example, rejected
the idea. In my mind this is THE religious postulate - the God whom we
meet in prayer is the Creator. We, and I include myself, exert
ourselves existentially and accept the postulate.

Not everyone accept the Religious Postulate. To those for whom there
is no God to meet in prayer the postulate is meaningless. Those among
them who accept the idea of a creator are deists - the others are
atheists.

All that said - why it is necessary to know more about God? All that
can possibly really matter is our personal relationship with God.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Altway
Open Letter To Dr. Francis S. Collins

One problem with these "Open Letters" is that you can't control who will really
respond to them;)

Post by Altway
Dear Sir,
I enjoyed your book "The Language of God" and thought it was enlightening. I
am in full agreement that Science and religion are compatible. Not only
this, they complement each other and are two sides of the same thing. In so
far as Religion is also interested in Truth, science ought in fact to be
included in Theology. However, I was rather disappointed at the end because
of what I regard as a serious error of thought.

Which casts much doubt on the value of your agreement.

Post by Altway
You admit that God as the ceator of the Universe must be a Supernatural
being and yet you use natural reason, which is adapted to the created world,
to speculate about Him. In reality we know about God only because of His
revelation into our spirit.

Then what about Rom 1:18-20?

Post by Altway
The fact is that the doctrines of the Christian Church regarding the
Divinity of Jesus, Vicarious Atonement and Trinity cannot be found in the
teachings of Jesus in the New Testament,

As _so_ often in this NG, when the sentence starts with the self-referenctial
"the fact is...", the sentence is not factual at all!

Yes, they _can_ be found in the teachings of Jesus in the NT. That is what
centuries of careful reading of the documents has given us.

Post by Altway
but are speculations 300 years

NO, they are not 'speculations'.

Post by Altway
later, taken from Pagan sources - Mithraism or even ancient Egypt.

Nor are they "taken from Pagan sources". This is a completely groundless myth.

Post by Altway
What Jesus taught was:-
"Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of
heaven, but He THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. Many
will say to me in that Day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophecied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful
works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME,
YE THAT WORK INIQUITY." Matthew 7:21-23
"And this is Eternal Life that they might know THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD and
Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent." John 17:3
"While I was with them in the world I kept them in THY NAME..." John 17:12
"He that hears my word and believes on Him that sent me, hath everlasting
life, and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death into
life." John 5:24

And you do not hear His word, as you show so clearly with the intensely
anti-christian bias of your selective citation. For the _very preceding verse_
shows how wrong you are! It is:

that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor
the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
(Joh 5:23 RSVA)

But how do we honor the Father? Why, with worship. So this implies that those
who hear His word honor the Son with worship too.

Post by Altway
Note that it is not belief in Jesus but in the Father that leads to
salvation.

Note that because of the verse you so slyly omitted, these two are NOT
separable. You are not offering the Father true worship if you deny worship to
the Son.

[snip]