Was "Re: Sound Doctrine"

[James]

Re: Sound Doctrine
For the past year I have been attending a Pentecostal bible study at a local church.
Recently I have become aware of a difference between the Pastor s
understanding of basic doctrine and my own. I found your site and
would value your opinion regarding our respective views.
We both agree that Jesus Christ is divine. However he believes
Almighty God left heaven and was born as baby Jesus. During his time
on earth the Holy Spirit was in charge of heaven, and then after
Jesus rose from the dead he returned to heaven and sent the Holy
Spirit to be with us on earth.
I believe Almighty God (the Father) sent his Son into the world who
was born as baby Jesus, died and rose from the dead, and ascended
into heaven, and now the Holy Spirit is on earth as a result of our
relationship with our heavenly Father which we have through The Lord
Jesus.
It seems the basic difference in our theology is, I see Jesus as The
Son of God, and the Pastor sees Jesus as Almighty God.
I should value your observations.
Yours
Pip

Pip,

The Pastor needs to read his Bible. Let's see a few things that God's
word says about Jesus.

It never calls him 'Father', nor 'Almighty God' etc. Rather, the Bible
consistently tells us he was the "son" of God, not God. For example Lu
1:31b,

"So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." (NIV)

And Joh 10:36,

"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent
into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said,
`I am God's Son'?" (NIV)

Also, Jesus (before he came to earth) was a CREATED being, thus He
can't be God who has ALWAYS lived.

Jesus created: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of
all creation." (NASB)

God always lived: Ps 90:2,

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the
world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (NIV)

Thus you are correct in not agreeing with that Pastor, since his
beliefs clearly are not in harmony with God's word, the Holy Bible. (2
Ti 3:16)


Sincerely, James

**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

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----

<snip>

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by James

Re: Sound Doctrine
For the past year I have been attending a Pentecostal bible study at a local church.
Recently I have become aware of a difference between the Pastor s
understanding of basic doctrine and my own. I found your site and
would value your opinion regarding our respective views.
We both agree that Jesus Christ is divine. However he believes
Almighty God left heaven and was born as baby Jesus.

So close, and yet so far! The idea that He _left_ heaven is a terrible
mistake. God is everywhere present and filling all things (Jer 23:24).

Post by James

During his
time on earth the Holy Spirit was in charge of heaven,

This is bizarre, too. If he had _left_ heaven, then there is no way to
make sense of the passage:

Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been
baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit
descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from
heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased." (Luk
3:21-22 RSVA)

Note carefully: "the _heaven_ was opened", and only then did the
Spirit descend, only then was the voice of the Father heard. This
shows that both the Father and the Spirit were in heaven.

Post by James

and then after Jesus rose from the dead he returned to heaven and
sent the Holy Spirit to be with us on earth.
I believe Almighty God (the Father)

And I believe both you and your pastor are guaranteeing confusion for
yourselves by insisting on this _equation_ of "Almighty God" and "the
Father".

Post by James

sent his Son into the world who was born as baby Jesus, died and
rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and now the Holy
Spirit is on earth as a result of our relationship with our
heavenly Father which we have through The Lord Jesus.

As the Jeremiah quote shows, The LORD himself is in all places, even
in OT times. He did not wait for NT times for His Spirit to fill the
earth.

Post by James

It seems the basic difference in our theology is, I see Jesus as The
Son of God, and the Pastor sees Jesus as Almighty God.
I should value your observations.
Yours
Pip

Pip,
The Pastor needs to read his Bible.

That may be true, but your need to read it is far more acute.

Post by James
Let's see a few things that God's word says about Jesus.

But you were _very_ biased in your selection of which 'few things' to
cite.

I wish I could say I was surprised. But I am not. I have known for a
long time now, that "selective citation" is a basic weapon in the JW
arsenal for deceiving people with false arguments leading to falser
conclusions.

Post by James
It never calls him 'Father',

Well, duh! Of _course_ it never calls Him 'Father'. The Father and Son
are _distince_ persons of the Trinity.

Post by James
nor 'Almighty God'

Not true.

Post by James
etc. Rather, the Bible consistently tells us he was the "son" of God,
not God. For example Lu 1:31b,

Two problems here: 1) you are relying on an impossible translation of
Titus 2:13 when you say "consistently .. not God", and 2) the only
'son' God could have from before the beginning of all things _is_ God
(Jn 1:1-2).

Recall the verse that is so embarassing for the JW, when translated
correctly:

awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God
and Savior Jesus Christ, (Tit 2:13 RSVA)

Now be careful to avoid any equivocation: when this verse says "our
great God and Savior", this is ONE PERSON. It _cannot_ be referring to
the Father in "our great God" and to the Son in "Savior". Rather, it
is calling Jesus Christ both 'Savior' and "our great God".

This is how the Greeks themselves have interpeted this verse in Greek
since earliest times.

Post by James
"So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." (NIV)
And Joh 10:36,
"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and
sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I
said, `I am God's Son'?" (NIV)
Also, Jesus (before he came to earth) was a CREATED being,

False. He was never created, but _predates_ Creation. If it wasn't for
JW equivocation, this would have been crystal clear from John 1:1-3:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made
through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
(Joh 1:1-3 RSVA)

So before _anything_ was made (created), the Word already was.

Post by James
thus He can't be God who has ALWAYS lived.

Wrong again, see above.

Post by James
Jesus created: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn
of all creation." (NASB)

You misunderstood what birth this "firstborn" refers to. It refers to
His resurrection from the dead. He really _is_ "firstborn" of the
resurrected.

Post by James
God always lived: Ps 90:2,
"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the
world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (NIV)

As did Jesus Christ, as shown by John 1:1-3.

Post by James
Thus you are correct in not agreeing with that Pastor, since his
beliefs clearly are not in harmony with God's word, the Holy
Bible. (2 Ti 3:16)

And neither are yours.