Question for "non-believers"

[Inco Warren]

This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.

My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?

For me, they are definitely not the same; definitely two different
personalities. The one of the OT is mean, jealous; the one of the NT
is merciful, forgiving...

Inco

[Bob]

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?
For me, they are definitely not the same; definitely two different
personalities. The one of the OT is mean, jealous; the one of the NT
is merciful, forgiving...
Inco

Sometimes it seems that way. I reconcile the difference to myself like
this:
The development of the human race is like raising children. When
children are young, they need firm guidance. When they do something you
tell them not to do, you punish them. When they are good, you praise
them. As they get older and more mature, your relationship with them
changes as their attitudes change. As they become adults, you love
them as they are. I think God went through the same process with the
human race and the bible shows that changing relationship.

Bob

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?

B - hmm solid as possible facts? there's facts in the Bible? anyway...let
me put it this way...is one of your hands the same as the other hand?
They are different but still attached to the body..still part of the all.
For me God is everything and every seemingly individual thing is an aspect
of that God. We are ONE in diversity. Jesus seems miles away from
Jehovah....one kind and loving and accepting..the other stern and jealous
and unforgiving who prefers one kind of people (the Hebrews) over all
others. I like the Jesus version personally.

Bren

[SherLok Merfy]

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?
For me, they are definitely not the same; definitely two different
personalities. The one of the OT is mean, jealous; the one of the NT
is merciful, forgiving...
Inco

Hence came a legal question in the past: "New Testament, or Old
Testament?".
Liberal or conservative? Go to an emirate, jenerally, to know a society
that is conservative and therefore takes something like
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians2014:34;&version=15;
(1 Corinthians 14:34) seriously. These days, we let women vote and
teach.

Thence comes the question "Freedom or Control?". Same question,
concrete terms.
Another term for control is bondage and terror. I've met women that
wouldn't curb their tongue without it, not that I would bother trying
to curb such a tung. I wonder what kind of man would?

So, um, which testament's more conservative? Jenerally, I would agree
and say the old, and this particular passage is a notable exception.
What is not an exception is the speaker (Peter) promoting himself, like
in
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:37;&version=15;
verse thirty-seven of the same chapter and book as before.

[k***@astound.net]

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?
For me, they are definitely not the same; definitely two different
personalities. The one of the OT is mean, jealous; the one of the NT
is merciful, forgiving...

Have you heard of Marcion?

This idea was once proposed and seriously considered. Then rejected by
the vast majority of Christians.

[E***@gmail.com]

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?
For me, they are definitely not the same; definitely two different
personalities. The one of the OT is mean, jealous; the one of the NT
is merciful, forgiving...

A very interesting question. From Psalms 102:27 it would seem that He
is indeed the same. Hebrews 13:8 says that Jesus is the same
yesterday, today and forever. In order to for God to be God He would
have to be constant and unchanging, else how could you have faith that
He will treat all equally with no respect of persons? One of the
primary problems with the peoples in the Old Testament including Israel
was that of idolatry. They did not look to the true God who was the
source of their salvation, but to the works of their own hands. This
is what caused the jealousy of God towards the people. It may seem
mean for God to condem the wicked, but there must be Justice. God was
just as merciful in the Old Testament as he was to those in the New
Testament was when they yielded to His will and turned from their
iniquitous ways and embraced the gospel.

[Eric]

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?
For me, they are definitely not the same; definitely two different
personalities. The one of the OT is mean, jealous; the one of the NT
is merciful, forgiving...

A very interesting question. From Psalms 102:27 it would seem that He
is indeed the same. Hebrews 13:8 says that Jesus is the same
yesterday, today and forever. In order to for God to be God He would
have to be constant and unchanging, else how could you have faith that
He will treat all equally with no respect of persons? One of the
primary problems with the peoples in the Old Testament including Israel
was that of idolatry. They did not look to the true God who was the
source of their salvation, but to the works of their own hands. This
is what caused the jealousy of God towards the people. It may seem
mean for God to condem the wicked, but there must be Justice. God was
just as merciful in the Old Testament as he was to those in the New
Testament was when they yielded to His will and turned from their
iniquitous ways and embraced the gospel.

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by k***@astound.net

Post by Inco Warren
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?
For me, they are definitely not the same;

Have you heard of Marcion?

Yes, he and the Gnostics are interesting. Some were even explicit that
the God of the OId Testament really did create the world but is evil.
While the real God who sent Jesus also sent the snake in the garden.
(kind of like Prometheus bringing knowledge).

-G

[zach]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?

B - hmm solid as possible facts? there's facts in the Bible?

Yes, Brenda, you can strip all of the supernatural aspects away and
there are still plenty of facts in The Bible. But once again, in your
arrogant self-righteousness you miss the point of arguing _in context_.
The question is comparing the _fact_ of what is written in one section
of The Bible, and reconciling it with the _fact_ of what is written in
another section.

[b***@juno.com]

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?

This is the ancient heresy known as "Marcionism." Look it up in
Wikipedia. This was one of the most successful early heresies, so that
the Roman Catholic Church considers this possibly the most dangerous
heresy ever to spring up. (The idea that the two Testaments are two
different Gods, I mean).

Post by Inco Warren
For me, they are definitely not the same; definitely two different
personalities. The one of the OT is mean, jealous; the one of the NT
is merciful, forgiving...

Well, that's just a little bit too neat and tidy.

For example, in the prophecy book of "Revelation," (the very last book
of the NT) we have the largest Divinely-ordained massacres of the whole
Bible. It is God's final judgment on mankind. And whatever killing God
did in the OT, is nothing compared to what He plans to do at the End of
the World, according to Revelation.

However, before you freak out and start getting scared, bear this in
mind. Romans 11:32 makes it plain that God will have mercy on all men.
Just because God is planning on killing billions of us, is no big deal,
because we will all get saved in the end, and experience infinite
happiness. Death is just a blink of an eye compared to eternal
happiness in heaven.

So don't worry about God killing people. His love still triumphs in the
end, as we all get to heaven at the very end of all things. After we've
been in heaven thirty trillion centuries, we probably won't even be
able to remember who God killed.

(Reminds me of that wedding scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
"Let's not worry about who killed whom....... marriage is supposed to
be a HAPPY occasion......" :)

[zach]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Inco Warren
This is a question directed to people who know about the Old and New
testament but not necessarily believe (totally) in them.
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?

B - hmm solid as possible facts? there's facts in the Bible?

Yes, Brenda, you can strip all of the supernatural aspects away and
there are still plenty of facts in The Bible. But once again, in your
arrogant self-righteousness you miss the point of arguing _in context_.
The question is comparing the _fact_ of what is written in one section
of The Bible, and reconciling it with the _fact_ of what is written in
another section.

[h***@geneva.rutgers.edu]

About the OT and NT gods being different:

Jesus' teachings are consistent with the prophets. The prophets were
sceptical of "conventional religion", emphasizing a new covenant
written in the heart. Their ideal was Israel as a light for the
nations. Jesus himself claims his teachings are based on the Law and
the Prophets. It would be odd indeed if he is teaching a different
God.

The original question said he wanted the opinion of someone who
didn't take the Bible literally. I'm one.

I do see differences between the OT and the NT. But the OT (and to a
lesser extent the NT) has quite a range of viewpoints. The real
problem is with Israel seeing God as the sponsor of genocide. This
seems quite inconsistent with Jesus' teachings. But I would argue that
it is also inconsistent with the more advanced teachings of the
prophets.

I can't say why the difference. I believe there are several possible
causes, but I can't tell what the mix is.

* It's fairly standard to believe that God revealed himself
progressively. People in the earliest time weren't ready to hear
everything God had to say. It is possible that until the experience of
the Exile, the people were not able to worship God without getting rid
of members of all other religions.

* It's also possible that people didn't hear everything God was
saying. When he demanded that Israel separate themselves from
idolatry, they may have heard him as saying "kill the idolaters", even
though that isn't the approach he would take in the end.

[gilgames]

<<
Have you heard of Marcion?

This idea was once proposed and seriously considered. Then rejected by
the vast majority of Christians.
No. Marcion was rejected because he taught that the God of the Old
testament is the Creator of the Evil, for this reason he denied that the
Old Testament God is real God, and he procrastinated the set of the
books according to his doctrine.

Naturaly there is just One God, but the Old Testament saw Him in
differently than the Christianity.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by k***@astound.net

Post by Inco Warren
My question is: For you, based on as solid as possible facts, is the
god of the Old Testament the same as the one of the New Testament?
For me, they are definitely not the same;

Have you heard of Marcion?

Yes, he and the Gnostics are interesting.

'Interesting'? They taught a delusion that lead many to perdition, and you call
them 'interesting'?

[snip]

[gilgames]

<<
I do see differences between the OT and the NT. But the OT (and to a
lesser extent the NT) has quite a range of viewpoints. The real
problem is with Israel seeing God as the sponsor of genocide. This
seems quite inconsistent with Jesus' teachings. But I would argue that
it is also inconsistent with the more advanced teachings of the
prophets.
Not really. Jesus was not liberal, He did not believed that the human
life is the highest value: God is the highest value in the NT too.

The Deuteronomium is a legal contract between God and His nation. They
get every helo for the survival, they had to keep Gods Law, and if they
don't do they will be exterminated in the most cruel way. That happened
in AD 70 as Jesus clearly predicted commonly called as 'abomination of
desolataion.

laszlo

[B.G. Kent]

Post by zach
Yes, Brenda, you can strip all of the supernatural aspects away and
there are still plenty of facts in The Bible. But once again, in your
arrogant self-righteousness you miss the point of arguing _in context_.
The question is comparing the _fact_ of what is written in one section
of The Bible, and reconciling it with the _fact_ of what is written in
another section.

B - obviously you don't see sarcasm ....I know there are facts in the
Bible....but few...very very few that can be sustantiated. Arrogance? I
don't know the meaning of the word...perhaps you confuse arrogance with
anger at bigotry. First one would have to prove the "fact" to make it
"fact" of one thing in one section of the bible...to be able to reconcile
it with proven "fact" in another section.
By your understanding Harry Potter could be filled with facts.
Is there any need for ad hominem attacks?

Bren