Discussion:
Seeing With New Eyes
(too old to reply)
rickhur
2008-02-04 01:22:35 UTC
Permalink
A friend once told me that "salvation" is a matter of discovering and
employing the right combination of principles. I think that is right
on. One of the principles I want to discuss is the principle of
"forgiveness". It has been said that forgiveness is a reciprocal
action, that is, God forgives us only as we forgive others. That
sounds like a real principle to me and if we are interested in
"salvation" we should have some idea of what forgiveness is and is
not. There is a forgiving of self that must be understood properly
but
today I am concerned with the forgiving of others.

Letting people do wrong and not holding them accountable is not
forgiveness. That is enabling. But the ability to hold another
accountable without anger or resentment is a good example of
forgiveness. The ability to see another, at each meeting, with new
eyes, with fresh eyes free of yesterdays remembrance of a wrong done,
is getting very close to the goal of forgiving others.


Resentment, which means "to feel again", is to have the same negative
feelings today toward another as you did yesterday. Here are some
examples of resentment based feelings that can be carried forward in
unforgiveness: annoyance, antagonism, bitterness, cynicism,
displeasure, dislike, exasperation, fury, grudge, hate, hostility,
hurt, ill feeling, ill will, indignation, ire, irritation, malice,
outrage, perturbation, rage, spite, umbrage, vexation and wrath.


One of the problems with employing negative emotions is that at any
time the person we are employing them against can realize his error
and repent of it without us ever knowing it. If a soul has repented
and we continue to view them in our mind with yesterdays eyes we will
be guilty of judging them most unfairly. We may never know that a
prisoner in jail has repented, for example. but love waits and hopes
for repentance without anger or resentment. Love is ever ready to
reconcile with those who previously did wrong but have repented of
it.


There is also, of course, a fine line between discernment and
judgment. Discernment sees wrong rightly but minus negative,
judgemental emotion. We have been warned to "judge not" or risk
judgment upon ourselves. Upset, anger and hatred are judgemental
emotions and the measure we use to judge others with will be the
measure used to judge us. If we judge angrily another as unworthy, we
will become unworthy ourselves. Salvation means being saved from
something and in this case forgiveness implies being made free of
judging our neighbor. It is far better to mediate and learn to
separate our soul from negative, destructive emotion rather than to
go
to our grave controlled by negative emotion and thinking towards
others.


Daily Life As Spiritual Exercise
http://rickhur.blogspot.com
shegeek72
2008-02-06 01:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickhur
One of the principles I want to discuss is the principle of
"forgiveness". It has been said that forgiveness is a reciprocal
action, that is, God forgives us only as we forgive others.
God's forgiveness is based on a judgmental God. Though the Bible
recounts a 'revengeful' God that should be feared (particularly in the
OT), I don't feel God is judgmental. I don't see how an all-loving God
could be; when we die I think there can be self judgment. However, we
can ask God to help us forgive ourselves for doing wrong and making
mistakes (Lord knows, I've made enough!).
Post by rickhur
We have been warned to "judge not" or risk
judgment upon ourselves.
That's true. However, I find many 'Christians' don't follow this
precept, particularly with GLBT folks. In essence, they want to stick
their noses in our lives and tell us how to live and promote
discrimination. There have been thousands of GLBT people who've been
rejected by their churches. This is a travesty. The very places they
should receive nonjudgmentalism and support, they don't. The suicide
rates for gay and transgender people, especially youths, are above
average and Christians are a primary cause.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarasresources.net

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org
B.G. Kent
2008-02-07 01:31:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, shegeek72 wrote:

**snip
Post by shegeek72
That's true. However, I find many 'Christians' don't follow this
precept, particularly with GLBT folks. In essence, they want to stick
their noses in our lives and tell us how to live and promote
discrimination. There have been thousands of GLBT people who've been
rejected by their churches. This is a travesty. The very places they
should receive nonjudgmentalism and support, they don't. The suicide
rates for gay and transgender people, especially youths, are above
average and Christians are a primary cause.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
B - for me..if you have to believe in a devil..then those folks are
displaying devil-like attitudes. To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....and those that delve into it...well they are not Christian no
matter what church they go to. Going to a building and saying Lord this
and Lord that does not make one a Christian...acting out of love does.

I.M.O
Bren
Bob
2008-02-08 02:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
**snip
Post by shegeek72
That's true. However, I find many 'Christians' don't follow this
precept, particularly with GLBT folks. In essence, they want to stick
their noses in our lives and tell us how to live and promote
discrimination. There have been thousands of GLBT people who've been
rejected by their churches. This is a travesty. The very places they
should receive nonjudgmentalism and support, they don't. The suicide
rates for gay and transgender people, especially youths, are above
average and Christians are a primary cause.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
B - for me..if you have to believe in a devil..then those folks are
displaying devil-like attitudes. To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....and those that delve into it...well they are not Christian no
matter what church they go to. Going to a building and saying Lord this
and Lord that does not make one a Christian...acting out of love does.
I.M.O
Bren
I believe each person must come to terms with their own view of God.
If it is a favorable view, God will accept it. The church's view of
God is an view for those who struggle to come up with their own view,
so unobtainable that the vast majority just go through the motions of
being Christian.
I believe that belief in God, respect for him, and treating our fellow
man with love and respect will be acceptable to him. I do not believe
that God intended everyone to fit a certain religious mould since he
created each of us with such unique personalities.

Bob
Matthew Johnson
2008-02-08 02:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....
Then why do you display such hatred for the truth? And why do you display it
over and over again?

And don't think you can wriggle out of this one: you display hatred for the
truth every time you claim for yoursel the title 'Christian'. Your beliefs
arenot Christian at all.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
l***@hotmail.com
2008-02-11 01:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
I believe each person must come to terms with their own view of God.
If it is a favorable view, God will accept it.
This sheer lunacy! You can't even live by this principle. NO one
does. You watch your favorite sport team lose a game because one
stupid ref makes an idiot call. You're irate because it is "unjust."
The simple fact is that there are "rules of the game" that must be
followed. God is His own "rule." He cannot act contrary to
Himself.

Idolatry is nothing less than arriving at the wrong answer when asked
the question, "What is God like?" And idol of the mind is even worse
than an idol of wood or metal because "As a man thinketh, so he is."

God cannot act contrary to Himself. So if you do not believe in Him
as He has revealed Himself to be, then He simply cannot accept you.
You can sit in your garage looking at you Yugo and hypnotize yourself
into believing it is Ferrari but the reality does not change.
l***@hotmail.com
2008-02-11 01:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
I believe each person must come to terms with their own view of God.
If it is a favorable view, God will accept it. =A0
Try this logic with Uncle Sam when you short change him on your
taxes. "But I thought you were really serious that I had to pay taxes
on all of my income!"

It doesn't matter what you believe. The bumper sticker, "God said
it. I believe it. That settles it" gets it wrong. The true reality
is, "God said it. That settles it."
R P
2008-02-11 01:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....
Then why do you display such hatred for the truth?
You mean the truth as decided by Matthew Johnson?
Post by Matthew Johnson
And don't think you can wriggle out of this one: you display hatred for
the
truth every time you claim for yoursel the title 'Christian'. Your beliefs
arenot Christian at all.
Once again, Matthew decides who IS Christian and who is not....

(I thought that was up to Christ to decide...)
shegeek72
2008-02-11 01:52:23 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 7, 6:42 pm, the suspect Matthew Johnson
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....
Then why do you display such hatred for the truth? And why do you display it
over and over again?
Let me give you an example of hatred: at a Gay Pride parade several
years ago, there was a group of Christian protesters holding the
typical homophobic signs. When I passed I looked at them and smiled.
What I got in return was the purest look of hate I've ever seen in my
life. Similar to the hate you express over and over again in this NG
Post by Matthew Johnson
And don't think you can wriggle out of this one: you display hatred for the
truth every time you claim for yoursel the title 'Christian'. Your beliefs
arenot Christian at all.
Anyone who says to another: "You are not a Christian,' certainly is
not a Christian himself.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarasresources.net

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org
Matthew Johnson
2008-02-12 03:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
On Feb 7, 6:42 pm, the suspect Matthew Johnson
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....
Then why do you display such hatred for the truth? And why do you display it
over and over again?
A very unconvincing example, since none of your readers can verify
your claim concerning their expressions.

[snip]
Post by shegeek72
Similar to the hate you express over and over again in this NG
Nor can we verify this claim. So again, very unconvincing.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
And don't think you can wriggle out of this one: you display hatred for the
truth every time you claim for yoursel the title 'Christian'. Your beliefs
arenot Christian at all.
Anyone who says to another: "You are not a Christian,' certainly is
not a Christian himself.
Nonsense. If I say to one of my Hindu coworkers, "you are not a
Christian", they will wonder why I am commenting on it at all, but
most will not take offense. In fact, usually they are the first to say
it.

So as usual, you have had no legitimate response, only falsehood and
irrelevnt distraction. But such is to be expected out of someone with
such a burning hatred for the truth.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2008-02-12 03:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....
Then why do you display such hatred for the truth?
You mean the truth as decided by Matthew Johnson?
NO, that is not what I mean and you know it. You are being predictably
dishonest.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
And don't think you can wriggle out of this one: you display hatred for
the
truth every time you claim for yoursel the title 'Christian'. Your beliefs
arenot Christian at all.
Once again, Matthew decides who IS Christian and who is not....
(I thought that was up to Christ to decide...)
Do you have to heard the anathemas with your own ears to figure it out? Then I
suggest you show up at the right place on Mar 17 to hear the Church's judgment.
I did not make the decision; through the authority granted by Christ to the
Church, the Church has already made it.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2008-02-12 03:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....
Then why do you display such hatred for the truth?
You mean the truth as decided by Matthew Johnson?
Post by Matthew Johnson
And don't think you can wriggle out of this one: you display hatred for
the
truth every time you claim for yoursel the title 'Christian'. Your beliefs
arenot Christian at all.
Once again, Matthew decides who IS Christian and who is not....
(I thought that was up to Christ to decide...)
B - as far as I am concerned...it is.
Anything beyond that is idolatry.


Bren
B.G. Kent
2008-02-12 03:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Let me give you an example of hatred: at a Gay Pride parade several
years ago, there was a group of Christian protesters holding the
typical homophobic signs. When I passed I looked at them and smiled.
What I got in return was the purest look of hate I've ever seen in my
life. Similar to the hate you express over and over again in this NG
**snip

B - brava....what would Jesus do? I personally think he would love all and
not judge. I personally believe he would state "those without sin cast the
first stone" and then to top it off I would personally think that he would
have no problem whatsoever with those who took some of the strongest
lessons to learn and teach...who sufferred for helping others to see how
intolerance does not help..that there is no separation..that we are ONE.
Those who stand on the sidelines and scream sin sin sin...to the
GLBT community are simply lost in their hatred..calling it "hatred of the
sin and not the sinner" ...trying to protect themselves with that so that
they won't face their own hypocrisy..their own evil. They are far more
concerned with the "flesh" in telling how to share love and sex...then
they should be and they know it deep down inside. The spirit is more
important than anything...God could not care less who we have sex
with..but how we love...issues of trust and kindness...how we honour a
spirit..compassion. Focusing so much on the body..the actual act of
sexuality these "Bible thumpers" have lost their way as far as I am
concerned.

The simply mask their hatred in convenient twistings of the Bible....and
the mask is rather a thin one.

I have gay friends, Trannies friends and like other people ..some are
kind..some not so...people are people and we are all on this long walk
..this path to God..this path inward.

Get over it.

I.M.O
Bren
A Brown
2008-02-13 02:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
Similar to the hate you express over and over again in this NG
Nor can we verify this claim. So again, very unconvincing.
We can only verify this claim by the number of people that have obseverved
same....
A Brown
2008-02-13 02:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....
Then why do you display such hatred for the truth?
You mean the truth as decided by Matthew Johnson?
NO, that is not what I mean and you know it.
I know there is one person in this newsgroup (as others have pointed out),
that claims to be the arbiter of right/wrong and "Truth". Everyone else is
labeled and the name calling begins. (See below)
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
And don't think you can wriggle out of this one: you display hatred for
the
truth every time you claim for yoursel the title 'Christian'. Your
beliefs
arenot Christian at all.
Once again, Matthew decides who IS Christian and who is not....
(I thought that was up to Christ to decide...)
AJA
2008-02-13 02:50:24 UTC
Permalink
The bickering and rudeness in this group continues unabated.
Aren't there some posting rules about being polite, if not Christian rules
about humility and kindness? This is a moderated group, right?
Re this thread, I suggest we all take another look at Romans 2, if not the
entire letter.
Blessings,
Ann
Matthew Johnson
2008-02-13 02:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by shegeek72
Let me give you an example of hatred: at a Gay Pride parade several
years ago, there was a group of Christian protesters holding the
typical homophobic signs. When I passed I looked at them and smiled.
What I got in return was the purest look of hate I've ever seen in my
life. Similar to the hate you express over and over again in this NG
**snip
B - brava....what would Jesus do? I personally think he would love all and
not judge.
But He _is_ the judge!
Post by B.G. Kent
I personally believe he would state "those without sin cast the
first stone" and then to top it off I would personally think that he would
have no problem whatsoever with those who took some of the strongest
lessons to learn and teach...who sufferred for helping others to see how
intolerance does not help..that there is no separation..that we are ONE.
Those who stand on the sidelines and scream sin sin sin...to the
GLBT community are simply lost in their hatred..calling it "hatred of the
sin and not the sinner" ...trying to protect themselves with that so that
they won't face their own hypocrisy..their own evil.
Just as you will not face your own hypocrisy and evil? You quote out of context,
about "those without sin cast the first stone", yet here you are casting the
stone of "hypocrisy" and "evil" against others.

[snip]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2008-02-14 04:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
Similar to the hate you express over and over again in this NG
Nor can we verify this claim. So again, very unconvincing.
We can only verify this claim by the number of people that have obseverved
same....
But you never _know_ that number. Most of them post nothing.

That you continue to pretend that you can know that number is just another proof
of your deep intellectual dishonesty. But I, for my part, am not surprised by
this. For _every_ one of your posts has shown the same inclination to
dishonesty.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2008-02-14 04:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
To me hatred will never be a Christian
trait....
Then why do you display such hatred for the truth?
You mean the truth as decided by Matthew Johnson?
NO, that is not what I mean and you know it.
I know there is one person in this newsgroup (as others have pointed out),
that claims to be the arbiter of right/wrong and "Truth".
Like so many of the things you say you 'know', this is not even true.
Post by A Brown
Everyone else is labeled and the name calling begins. (See below)
So says the kid in the peanut gallery who does little else but label
others -- falsely.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
And don't think you can wriggle out of this one: you display
hatred for the truth every time you claim for yoursel the title
'Christian'. Your beliefs arenot Christian at all.
Once again, Matthew decides who IS Christian and who is not....
(I thought that was up to Christ to decide...)
Then _leave_ it up to Him to decide and stop writing these posts from
the peanut gallery!
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
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