Innate sin

[b***@allvantage.com]

Re: Innate sin
What does the bible say about innate sin and our sin nature? Are we really
born with innate sin or do we just have a sinful nature that leads us to
sin?

Jonathan,

Actually both. Because of the sin of Adam, he lost his perfection and
became imperfect. Thus when he had offspring, based on the laws of
genetics etc, all his offspring were born imperfect. As Job put it at
Job 14:4,

"Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!" (NIV)

Thus at this time, no person is strong enough not to ever commit any
sins since we are all "impure". Ro 5:12,

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death
through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"
(NIV)

If a baby dies before or after birth, will the baby go to heaven? I
was about to search for scripture on these topics and would love if you guys
could give me some verses or point me in the right direction.

God views even an embryo as a person. Ps 139:16,

"Your eyes could see my embryo.
In your book all my days were inscribed,
every one that was fixed is there." (New Jerusalem Bible)

And here is what happens when a person dies. Ec 9:5,

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."
(NIV)

Also Ps 146:3,4,

"3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no
salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very
day his thoughts perish." (NASB)

Notice that the dead people described above "know nothing" because
their "thoughts perish" at death. Thus they do not continue to live
elsewhere at that time. Their hope is in the resurrection of the dead.
Ac 24:15,

"and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a
resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." (NIV)

So do they then get to make it to Heaven? The Bible holds out two
destinations for humans. Some (a small minority) will go to Heaven, but
the vast majority will live right here on a cleansed earth. Jesus
referred to that group at Mt 5:5,

"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV)

If all good people go to Heaven, how can they "inherit the earth"?
(more on this subject if you are interested)


Sincerely, James


***********************************
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Thanks,
Jonathan King

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by b***@allvantage.com

Re: Innate sin
What does the bible say about innate sin and our sin nature?

Nothing. Both "innate sin" and "sin nature" are theological
constructs. Neither term actually occurs in the Bible. Nor is either
term the best way to explain what _does_ occur in the bible.

Post by b***@allvantage.com

Are we really born with innate sin or do we just have a sinful
nature that leads us to sin?

I am not sure what you think the difference between these two
alternatives would be.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Jonathan,
Actually both.

No, actually neither.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Because of the sin of Adam, he lost his perfection and
became imperfect.

This much is true, but what has that got to do with his _nature_? And
in what _way_ did it become 'imperfect'?

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Thus when he had offspring, based on the laws of genetics etc, all
his offspring were born imperfect.

That sounds like a partial answer to the above questions, but only
partial. Do you really think that genetics defines our entire nature?
It sounds like you do, but it is not definitive, so I can't be sure.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
As Job put it at Job 14:4,
"Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!" (NIV)
Thus at this time, no person is strong enough not to ever commit any
sins since we are all "impure". Ro 5:12,

What has _strength_ got to do with it? That is not what the
translations I use read there.

I should also point out that you are relying on a contentious
translation of "EN hWi", which _could_ mean 'because', so that it is
"because all have sinned", but could also mean, "in whom" so that it
becomes "in whom all have sinned". And there are other possibilities.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death
through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all
sinned" (NIV)

Again: is it 'because', or 'in whom' or even simply the weaker 'in
that'?

Post by b***@allvantage.com

If a baby dies before or after birth, will the baby go to heaven? I
was about to search for scripture on these topics and would love if
you guys could give me some verses or point me in the right
direction.

God views even an embryo as a person. Ps 139:16,
"Your eyes could see my embryo. In your book all my days were
inscribed, every one that was fixed is there." (New Jerusalem Bible)

Why are you switching from NIV to NJB? And what a bizarre translation
this is! Are all his days fixed or not? Are you trying to pull the
wool over our eyes with a bizarre translation?

Post by b***@allvantage.com
And here is what happens when a person dies. Ec 9:5,

Ah, so you _are_ trying to pull the wool over our eyes! The use of
this contentious translation proves this beyond the shadow of a
reasonable doubt.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is
forgotten." (NIV)

Ah, ah, ah! Not so fast. 'Memory' can mean either their own faculty of
memory, or the rememberance concerning them among the living. For
nefarious you choose the former, but other intepreters chose what fits
with the rest of the Bible message much better, namely:

For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any
thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them
is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 JPS)

"Memory of them" is much more natural in English as meaning
_rememberance_ concerning them. It would be very odd, even non-native
English to say that it means "their [faculty of] memory".

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Also Ps 146:3,4,
"3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no
salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that
very day his thoughts perish." (NASB)

Again, the questionable translation: it should be PLANS, not
'thoughts'. And their plans _do_ perish, since they can do nothing
anymore.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Notice that the dead people described above "know nothing" because
their "thoughts perish" at death.

Wrong, as shown above.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Thus they do not continue to live elsewhere at that time.

Wrong again. If that were so, then Jesus could not have told the
Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, since nobody would have taken it
seriously.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Their hope is in the resurrection of the dead. Ac 24:15,

But this does not contradict their "continuing to live elsewhere".

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a
resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." (NIV)

And they _do_ have this hope, since the resurrected state is better.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
So do they then get to make it to Heaven? The Bible holds out two
destinations for humans.

Two _final_ destinations: heaven and hell.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Some (a small minority) will go to Heaven,

And no JW will be in that number.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
but the vast majority will live right here on a cleansed earth.

No. You are interpreting too literally where you should not.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Jesus referred to that group at Mt 5:5,

No, He did not. This is an intensely biased interpretation.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV)

This is where you are too literal. 'Earth' here means the Kingdom of
Heaven, the _inheritance_ of the righteous.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
If all good people go to Heaven, how can they "inherit the earth"?

I just answered that question.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
(more on this subject if you are interested)

More, but worth less, no doubt.