Discussion:
Xians, "Original sin" is WRONG!
(too old to reply)
mike3
2007-03-26 03:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

It is. If you admit free will, you have to deny original sin. If you
believe that choices make a person who they are, then when they are a
baby and have made no choices, there can be no "sin" there, as they
have not actually done a wrong. Also, it relies on a literal
historical interpretation of Genesis, that Adam and Eve REALLY
existed, REALLY ate this fruit, etc. instead of it just being a moral
story (the best interpretation.). But the Genesis account is NOT
history -- for one, where does it say it is? It doesn't. Interpreting
it as such also contradicts science (evolution, etc.). Why would God
decieve us (one argument I've heard against science)? Your Bible says
that God is all-good. Lying is bad. Therefore, God does not lie. This
can not be used to justify a literal interpretation either, since God
did not put up there a declaration "THE FOLLOWING IS AN ACCOUNT OF
LITERAL HISTORY."

"Original sin" is a bad doctrine. Christianity and many othe religions
choose to take doctrines like it as "canon" even though one's
*interpretation* of canon is *NOT* canon.

I'm curious, why then do a lot of Christians

... believe in original sin, and

... believe that the Bible must be taken literally?
Matthew Johnson
2007-03-27 01:00:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike3
Hi.
It is. If you admit free will, you have to deny original sin.
Not true. How the two can coexist is not easy to understand or explain, but this
_was_ one of the main topics of St. Augustine's book "De Libero Arbitrio".

I haven't found this on the Web in English, but there is a reasonably good
French translation at http://membres.lycos.fr/saintaugustin2/librearbitre/. Even
more amazing, the original is at
http://www.augustinus.it/latino/libero_arbitrio/index2.htm.

So don't expect me to recapitulate the whole thing here;) But I will say at
least this much: it sounds to me like you are confusing "free will" with
"omnipotent will". The freedom of our free will is far from absolute.

[snip]

Now if, as you would have us believe, these two notions were absolutely
contradictory, then how could someone as important to the entire history of
Western Philosophy fail to see the contradiction? It is simply not possible.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

---

[www.ccel.org has several works about free will and predestination, but
apparently not this one. You might be able to find a similar explanation
in one of those works. --clh]
shegeek72
2007-03-28 01:48:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike3
I'm curious, why then do a lot of Christians
... believe in original sin, and
The "original sin" interpretation of the metaphorical Adam & Eve was
created by Christians. It never made sense to me, nor others,
particularly in my church. I cannot believe that an all-loving God
would create babies already loaded with sin. Indeed, babies have the
purest hearts I've experienced.

I think the story of Adam & Eve is telling us that we are all God-like
and it's the "falling away" of knowing this that the account refers
to. The nakedness factors into this: since when one is in an ecstatic,
filled-with-God state it makes no difference if one is clothed or not.
Nakedness being "shameful" or "sinful" is a judgment.

Judgment is the prerogative of judges, not God, nor people.
Post by mike3
... believe that the Bible must be taken literally?
I've touched on this before. Taking the Bible literally doesn't allow
critical thinking concerning the periods in history, culture, social
norms and context into consideration. If one doesn't want to think
while reading the Bible, then taking it literally is a panacea.
Unfortunately, this results in misinterpretations, the most glaring
being homosexuality, that has caused untold numbers of gay and lesbian
people pain and rejection.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org
b***@dodo.com.au
2007-04-03 04:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by mike3
I'm curious, why then do a lot of Christians
... believe in original sin, and
The "original sin" interpretation of the metaphorical Adam & Eve was
created by Christians. It never made sense to me, nor others,
particularly in my church. I cannot believe that an all-loving God
would create babies already loaded with sin. Indeed, babies have the
purest hearts I've experienced.
I think the story of Adam & Eve is telling us that we are all God-like
and it's the "falling away" of knowing this that the account refers
to. The nakedness factors into this: since when one is in an ecstatic,
filled-with-God state it makes no difference if one is clothed or not.
Nakedness being "shameful" or "sinful" is a judgment.
Judgment is the prerogative of judges, not God, nor people.
Post by mike3
... believe that the Bible must be taken literally?
I've touched on this before. Taking the Bible literally doesn't allow
critical thinking concerning the periods in history, culture, social
norms and context into consideration. If one doesn't want to think
while reading the Bible, then taking it literally is a panacea.
Unfortunately, this results in misinterpretations, the most glaring
being homosexuality, that has caused untold numbers of gay and lesbian
people pain and rejection.
--
Tara's Transgender Resourceshttp://tarafoundation.org
That sin exists should be evident to all, especially at the end of the
20th century with it's record number of dead from war and persecution.

It had it's origins somewhere. However the problem in one sense is
what we might call "compounding sin", where one man sins, and his sin
affects several others in different ways. In turn they may well sin,
and so the problem grows. It is not stopped until someone forgives
another, and even then forgiveness is only effective if the one who
did the original wounding recognises the damage he or she has done,
and repents. Otherwise the end result keeps growing.

To add to the mystery, God allows the devil to be the "Prince of this
World". So on the one hand we have God expecting us not to sin, and
on the other setting up the scene so that sin is inevitable. I
suppose this might be what Paul wrote as "God has consigned all men to
disobedience, that He may hae mrecy upon all" (Rom 11.32). This is
cold comfort to someone who is a victim of a concentration camp, which
is the sort of final result which sin leads to.

It is this "compounding sin" which a baby is born into, and which will
affect it at some stage during it's lifetime. What will happen is
that as the child grows older, it will tend to gravitate towards
sinfulness. People who would never dream of violently assaulting
another may well find they have no objection to the expedient thrill
of unmarried sexual cohabitation, despite God's antipathy to it,
largely because so many other people are already doing so. A person
who detests violence may welll find that it is necessary to join the
defence forces to defend his or her country against an invader, and
thus participate in violent acts themselves. We will all find
ourselves part of a hypocritical economic system, where CEO's pay
themselves obscene amounts of money, whilst claiming the ordinary
worker is not worthy of their hire. Some of us will aspire to the
same greed.

Trying to track down the exact origins of this tendency would be
impossible. But even if the Genesis account is a mythical version of
it, the fact remains we have an inbuilt tendency to sin, aggravated by
the pervasive influence of the prince of this world.

About the only positive effect is that it allows some lights to glow a
little brighter - Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Dietrich Bonhoeffer,
and other saintly people.
shegeek72
2007-04-05 03:13:31 UTC
Permalink
I've heard this theory before.

It presupposes that humans are born degenerates and will "sin," and do
bad things, unless they become Christians. But there's no evidence for
this, scientific or otherwise. It's strictly an interpretation of
parts of the Bible, albiet a popular one, but just as wrong as the
interpretation that the homosexuality in the Bible refers to the
monogamous, longterm relationships of today.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-09 01:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
I've heard this theory before.
It presupposes that humans are born degenerates and will "sin," and do
bad things, unless they become Christians.
You seem not to have studied the dynamic of sin. I suggest you find a
copy on line or somewhere else and read Muller's "On The Chrisitan
Doctrine of Sin." Though written in the 1800's, I have found no
fuller
discussion of the doctrine.

In the above sentence, you betray a false understanding of what it
means to be a Christian in relation to sin. This side of eternity,
the regenerated man yet retains his sin nature. Indeed, he has
been given a new nature, a capacity to please God, but nowhere
is it taught in Scripture that God is in the business or patching up
the "old man." The old nature is ever and only oriented toward
self, regardless of its thoughts, words or deeds. Romans 7
illustrates the fact that the "born again" Christian is never, in
this life time, free from this selfish orientation.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.

In this epistle, John nowhere allows for perfectionism. Christians
always struggle with self while they are in these corruptable bodies.

Also, you seem to have a shallow view of "sin." Sin is not to
be defined by worldly idealism. Sin is anything and everything
which is not wholly and perfectly oriented toward the good
pleasure of God. This means that you could put the wealth of
a Bill Gates in the Sunday offering plate each and every week
and if not generated by the Spirit, it would be a sheer nothing
before the eyes of God. He is the only reference point.
Post by shegeek72
But there's no evidence for this, scientific or otherwise.
2 Cor. 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds
of the unbelieving...
1 John 2:11 ....walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is
going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

And who said it, "An unexamined life is not one worth living?"
All one has to do is look into his or her own heart to see the
evidence of the original sin - self orientation. There is no
"good" outside of God. And unless you've been born again,
you are incapable of it for you are only and ever oriented to
pleasing, glorifying self for it is you one and only reference
point.
Post by shegeek72
It's strictly an interpretation of
parts of the Bible, albiet a popular one, but just as wrong as the
interpretation that the homosexuality in the Bible refers to the
monogamous, longterm relationships of today.
Rom. 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and
forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads
you to repentance?
Rom. 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you
are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation
of the righteous judgment of God,

You may get away with revisionism before men, but what
will that matter when you are judged by God's Word
unfornicated? Above you illustrate the fact that self orientation
is at the root of all sin.
Matthew Johnson
2007-04-09 01:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
I've heard this theory before.
You have? Then why did you get it wrong when you described it?
Post by shegeek72
It presupposes that humans are born degenerates
And that 'presupposition' is pretty well corroborated by the daily paper.
Post by shegeek72
and will "sin,"
This too, is ocrroborated by the daily news.
Post by shegeek72
and do
bad things, unless they become Christians.
And this is where you got it wrong -- terribly wrong. There is no 'unless' here:
they _keep_ on doing bad things even after they become Christians. You have been
intruding in this NG long enough to notice that.
Post by shegeek72
But there's no evidence for
this, scientific or otherwise.
And with this blooper, you reveal that you do not understand "scientific
evidence" either.
Post by shegeek72
It's strictly an interpretation of
parts of the Bible, albiet a popular one, but just as wrong as the
interpretation that the homosexuality in the Bible refers to the
monogamous, longterm relationships of today.
Another major blooper! The word 'homosexuality' never occurs in the Bible. But
the so-called "monogamous, longterm relationships of today" which you refer to
are clearly included in the condemnation in 1 Cor 6:9-10. You will NOT enter the
Kingdom of Heaven as long as you put yourself under this condemnation.

Worse, you mislead others into putting themselves under the same condemnation,
which increases your punishment.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
shegeek72
2007-04-10 01:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
In the above sentence, you betray a false understanding of what it
means to be a Christian in relation to sin.
<snip>

This is your opinion and entitled to it, but don't expect other
Christians (or non-Christians) to agree.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.
<another snip>

None of your quotes explicitly mention "original sin." It's a concept
created to explain the mythological story of Adam & Eve, but is
inaccurate.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org
h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
2007-04-10 01:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.
None of your quotes explicitly mention "original sin." It's a concept
created to explain the mythological story of Adam & Eve, but is
inaccurate.
Rom 5:12 ff seems the clearest statement in the NT: Sin came through
Adam, and spread from him to all of humanity.

There's lots of things associated with Original Sin that I don't
necessarily agree with. E.g. the idea that we are guilty of Adam's sin
itself. I Cor 15:22 could be taken to mean this, but I think Paul
means that the human nature we get from Adam is corrupted, not that we
are literally guilty of his actions.

Jesus tends not to be so doctrinal. But a major part of his mission
was to forgive sins and reconcile people to God. The presumption was
that everyone needed this. The only people who were in real trouble
were those who thought they didn't have sin. See e.g. Matt 9:10 ff.

Some have also gotten the impression that according to Original Sin
the image of God in us has been obliterated. That's certainly not the
case. We are created in the image of God. However that image of God
has been blurred by sin.

There's a term in Reformed theology, "total depravity." That doesn't
mean that everyone is as bad as they possibly can be. The term "total"
is used to emphasize that all aspects of humanity are affected by sin.
For example, it's not the case that our spirit is pure, and only the
body is corrupted. Views like that were apparently held by some people
influenced by neo-Platonism. Christianity does not believe that we are
pure souls captive in impure bodies. Sin affects all of us, starting
from the will.

Original sin would seem to be one of the most obvious concepts in
Christianity. It is a recognition that nothing we do is perfect. That
doesn't mean that people are incapable of doing good. Rather, it's a
recognition that in everything we do there is at least some
imperfection, e.g. self-centered motivation. Thus nothing would
strictly speaking merit reward from God, apart from his grace. But
we do have his grace.
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-11 02:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
There's lots of things associated with Original Sin that I don't
necessarily agree with. E.g. the idea that we are guilty of Adam's sin
itself. I Cor 15:22 could be taken to mean this, but I think Paul
means that the human nature we get from Adam is corrupted, not that we
are literally guilty of his actions.
After Adam, no man could sin as he did other than Christ. Adam
had but one orientation originally -that being to please God only.
His reference point was never self but totally derivative of God.
What we share with Adam is our orientation to self. We are born
oriented only to pleasing self. Only the regenerate man can
orient himself to please God as acceptable by God. So you
are right in that we cannot replicate Adam's sin but that does
not equate to mean that we did not inherit Adam's "sin" which
is self orientation.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
There's a term in Reformed theology, "total depravity." That doesn't
mean that everyone is as bad as they possibly can be. The term "total"
is used to emphasize that all aspects of humanity are affected by sin.
Technically it means that man has but one orientation aside from
the grace of God regenerating a new orientation.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
For example, it's not the case that our spirit is pure, and only the
body is corrupted. Views like that were apparently held by some people
influenced by neo-Platonism. Christianity does not believe that we are
pure souls captive in impure bodies. Sin affects all of us, starting
from the will.
Sin disrupted the personhood of man, that being often defined as
having emotion, intellect and volition. Sin doesn't affect one aspect
anymore than the other. The orientation of man is but in one
direction
so all aspects of man are ruined. If man gives a million dollars to
the poor, he does so with self as the reference point whether it be
to make himself feel better about himself or whether it be in seeking
vain glory in one form or another. Man is born biased and there is
nothing with man that can reorder that bias. It is only "from above"
that man can become "born again." It is solely a divine act based
solely on the divine good pleasure.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Original sin would seem to be one of the most obvious concepts in
Christianity. It is a recognition that nothing we do is perfect. That
doesn't mean that people are incapable of doing good.
From the divine perspective, it does. From the human perspective,
we equate actions which reflect the image that man was created
after as being genuine, pure, acceptable by God. But they never
are unless a man first be born again then only if he is both led
and empowered by the Spirit. Outside of that all action is only
of the selfish flesh.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Rather, it's a
recognition that in everything we do there is at least some
imperfection, e.g. self-centered motivation.
And for the mature Christian, this becomes more and more
recognized the further the Spirit leads him in his sanctification.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Thus nothing would
strictly speaking merit reward from God, apart from his grace. But
we do have his grace.
As Francis Schaeffer put it, it is only when the regenerate man
does the Lord's work in the Lord's way, under the guidence and
power of the Spirit, does he actually accomplish divinely
acceptable "good." However, the regenerate man is still
quite capable of doing the "Lord's work" in the power of the
flesh. And if we are sensitive to the Spirit, we will confess that
much of what we do is exactly at that position.

The most sober recognition of this fact is when Christ Himself
declares that in the day of judgment, many will come before Him
claiming, "Lord, Lord" but with astonishment and horrow they
will be rebuked by Him when He counters, "Depart from Me. I
never knew you." Thus Paul in 2 Cor 13:5 exhorts us all to
examine our faith with due diligence. Man is quite capable of
fooling himself.
Matthew Johnson
2007-04-11 02:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.
None of your quotes explicitly mention "original sin." It's a concept
created to explain the mythological story of Adam & Eve, but is
inaccurate.
Rom 5:12 ff seems the clearest statement in the NT: Sin came through
Adam, and spread from him to all of humanity.
I am so glad, Charles, that you showed the commendable caution of saying
'seems'.

After all, when we put aside all the tendentious translations, looking at the
_whole_ history of interpretation of this verse, it no longer seems so very
'clear' in its alleged support of the dogma of "original sin".

In fact, in the first 1000 years or so of commentary by the Greek Fathers on
this verse, you will not even _find_ the expression "original sin"; it is only
later, when Augustine and Aquinas were translated into Greek, that we start to
find this term among them.

So what do we find? We find that many [all?] of the Greek Fathers did not even
_agree_ with the Old Latin translation on which Augustine relied; they did _not_
translate "EF'hWi" as "through whom". On the contrary: they were split between
rendering it as 'because' or as 'for that' (which is the KJV translation).

Not so 'clear' after all.

[snip]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2007-04-11 02:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
In the above sentence, you betray a false understanding of what it
means to be a Christian in relation to sin.
<snip>
This is your opinion and entitled to it, but don't expect other
Christians (or non-Christians) to agree.
Newsflash: even many of us who disagree with Loren on many things will agree
with him on this: you _do_ betray a false understanding of it.

Why, it is so obvious, I would even dare say anyone who knows what he is talking
about will agree with Loren on at least this point.
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves,
and the truth is not in us.
<another snip>
None of your quotes explicitly mention "original sin."
You miss the point. He was focusing not on proving "original sin", but on
disproving your straw-man caricature of it. 1 John 1:8 does this quite well.

[snip]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
b***@juno.com
2007-04-13 04:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Rom 5:12 ff seems the clearest statement in the NT: Sin came through
Adam, and spread from him to all of humanity.
Original sin seems to be a terrible doctrine, unless you also consider
the second half, which is Christ's 100 percent successful
nullification of that original sin.

It's like this. Adam ate the wrong apple. This was on track to be 100
percent successful at sending everyone to hell.

But then Christ died on the correct cross. This led to a complete, 100
percent reversal of the consequences of Adams actions. Exactly like
Adam was able to transmit sin to everyone, Christ (the second Adam)
was able to transmit righteousness to everyone.

It is absurd to claim that somehow Adam was more successful than
Christ. Especially since Romans 5 tells us that grace from Christ
abounded MUCH MORE than the sin from Adam did.

But let's back up. If original sin is false, then every person is
responsible for their own damnation. And everybody would also be
responsible for their own salvation. But the situation is not like
that. Original sin is true, every child would have been headed for
damnation, but Christ reversed the process, thus every child is headed
for salvation eventually. But not on their own merits at all. Rather,
solely upon the merits of their Redeemer.

That is the true gospel.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
There's lots of things associated with Original Sin that I don't
necessarily agree with. E.g. the idea that we are guilty of Adam's sin
itself.
If we are not "guilty" of Adam's sin, we can not be "guilty" of
Christ's righteousness either. In order to accept the imputed
righteousness of Christ, you have to also accept the imputed
sinfulness of Adam. The two are the flip sides of the exact same coin.
The best part is, both sides of the coin lead to humility, which is
the chief virtue.

If you deny original sin, or if you deny that Christ's actions were
sufficient to save you, (and claim you have to do something in
addition to clinch the deal) you are claiming more importance for
yourself on both counts. That is, you are planting seeds of pride,
when everyone knows humility is where it is at.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Cor 15:22 could be taken to mean this, but I think Paul
means that the human nature we get from Adam is corrupted, not that we
are literally guilty of his actions.
You think that, but you are wrong. The exact same principle is
operating in both cases: Adam's sin is credited to us, and Christ's
righteousness is likewise credited to us. Both use the method of
undeserved imputation. In both cases, you don't get what you deserve
under human standards of justice. Human Justice is not the underlying
principle, but rather Divine Election and Mercy.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Jesus tends not to be so doctrinal. But a major part of his mission
was to forgive sins and reconcile people to God. The presumption was
that everyone needed this. The only people who were in real trouble
were those who thought they didn't have sin. See e.g. Matt 9:10 ff.
Claiming that babies don't have sin at birth is the same as saying
that they don't need Christ if they die at childbirth. Thus, Christ
would NOT be the savior of all men, but only of those who made it past
infancy.

Under this scenario, the best thing would be to always commit
infanticide, since they would always go straight to heaven. So what if
they miss this incredibly risky life? Much better to kill them as
sinless infants, in order to insure them against the possible horror
of eternal damnation. If original sin is not true, then infanticide
should logically become standard practice.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Original sin would seem to be one of the most obvious concepts in
Christianity. It is a recognition that nothing we do is perfect. That
doesn't mean that people are incapable of doing good. Rather, it's a
recognition that in everything we do there is at least some
imperfection, e.g. self-centered motivation. Thus nothing would
strictly speaking merit reward from God, apart from his grace. But
we do have his grace.
Not only us, but all mankind will eventually be transformed by Grace.

----

[Paul argues that just as death spread to us from Adam, so does Jesus'
salvation. That does not require us to be guilty of Adam's specific
sinful action, just that the results spread to all of us and leave us
in a situation where we require God's grace.

As you may know, Reformed theology tends to emphasize sin as a
condition of alienation from God, rather than emphasizing specific
"sins". So what we inherit from Adam is the condition that resulted
from his action, not the actual action. Calvin's commentary on Romans
makes this clear.

I never said that babies don't have sin. The paragraph to which you
append this comment says nothing about babies. It says only that
everyone has sin. In fact I believe that everyone, even infants,
inherit the problem of sin, where sin is taken as the condition of
alienation from God. Even if they haven't committed a sinful act, or
at least not one for which they are responsible, they still need God's
grace. However I trust that God has ways of applying grace to infants.
(I am taking no position on the claim that anyone dying in infancy is
automatically saved. If it's true, it's because God chooses to bestow
grace on all of them.)

--clh]
gilgames
2007-04-14 01:12:12 UTC
Permalink
<<
Original sin seems to be a terrible doctrine, unless you also consider
the second half, which is Christ's 100 percent successful
nullification of that original sin.
Only after the second coming. In this state of the world we live live
outside of the Paradise, and we die. Also there is no separation between
the good and the bad
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-17 00:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@juno.com
<<
Original sin seems to be a terrible doctrine, unless you also consider
the second half, which is Christ's 100 percent successful
nullification of that original sin.
Only after the second coming. In this state of the world we live live
outside of the Paradise, and we die. Also there is no separation between
the good and the bad
This is not so. After the 2nd Adv. Christ sets up His kingdom. Mt 25
address the division of those who are good servants and those who
are goats. Those goats, unbelievers in fact, are carried away even as
in the days of Noah (Mt 24:37ff) Believers are left to enter into
that
kingdom both Jew and Gentile, and repopulate the earth after it's
decimation during the Tribulation. It is obvious that men of earth
during
that dispensation still carry within them the "old nature," but the
fact
that at the end of that thousand year reign of Christ in Jerusalem,
Satan is released and is able to gather to him once again, the nations
to rebel against the Divine King.

After the Millennial Kingdom, then the dead are called before the
Great White Throne and there receive the declaration of the degree
of torment they will suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire.

The believer in Christ after Pentecost, who dies physically, only he
is separated from the "old man." No matter what the conditions here
on earth, even with Christ Himself seated on the Throne of David in
Jerusalem, men will yet rebel against God. It is only in the eternal
state that regenerate men will all be sealed in that holy state.
Matthew Johnson
2007-04-18 02:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by b***@juno.com
<<
Original sin seems to be a terrible doctrine, unless you also consider
the second half, which is Christ's 100 percent successful
nullification of that original sin.
Only after the second coming. In this state of the world we live live
outside of the Paradise, and we die. Also there is no separation between
the good and the bad
This is not so.
Yes, it is so. That is what the "Parable of the Wheat and Tares (Mat 13:24-30)"
is about.

Only if you ignore this parable can your dispensationalist interpretation of Mt
25:31-46 fool anyone.

But really, even if you do ignore the one parable, you should have known better
than to believe your dispensationalist interpretation: for the last verse of the
pericope condemns your interpretation. After all: how can this division be after
His "2nd advent" and not at the end of the world, when the last verse reads:

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal
life."
(Mat 25:46 RSVA)

This makes it clear that the entire passage Mt 25:31-46 _must_ refer to the end
of the world, NOT to the beginning of some mythical "millenial kingdom".

[snip]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
gilgames
2007-04-18 02:47:41 UTC
Permalink
<<
This is not so. After the 2nd Adv. Christ sets up His kingdom. Mt 25
address the division of those who are good servants and those who
are goats. Those goats, unbelievers in fact, are carried away even as
in the days of Noah (Mt 24:37ff) Believers are left to enter into
that
kingdom both Jew and Gentile, and repopulate the earth after it's
decimation during the Tribulation. It is obvious that men of earth
during
that dispensation still carry within them the "old nature," but the
fact
that at the end of that thousand year reign of Christ in Jerusalem,
Satan is released and is able to gather to him once again, the nations
to rebel against the Divine King.

After the Millennial Kingdom, then the dead are called before the
Great White Throne and there receive the declaration of the degree
of torment they will suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire.

The believer in Christ after Pentecost, who dies physically, only he
is separated from the "old man." No matter what the conditions here
on earth, even with Christ Himself seated on the Throne of David in
Jerusalem, men will yet rebel against God. It is only in the eternal
state that regenerate men will all be sealed in that holy state.
If I understand you well outside of the definition of the Second Coming
we agree. Today the good and the evil are mixed, in the eternal world
the good and the evil will be separated.

As for the 1000 years reign I believe it is the past and was between the
4th and 14th Centuries, and the Satan is released now. If you believe
differently so be it for you.

laszlo
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-20 02:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
As for the 1000 years reign I believe it is the past and was between the
4th and 14th Centuries, and the Satan is released now. If you believe
differently so be it for you.
But this does not correlate with Christ's linking of it to the
prophecy of Daniel and the 70th week. Nor does it correlate itself to
the other OT prophecies especially in relation to John's use of them
in Rev.

But aside of that aspect there is still the mater of why you accept
the literal aspect of "Satan is released now" but not accept the
literal aspect of "1000 yrs." In that Satan is to be chained up during
those 1000 yrs, any encapsulating of the Dark Ages is absurd. Sardis
is a clear exposition that Satan was hardly chained up during that era
of Church history.

The best and least problematic rendition of Rev 20 is that the 1000 yr
reign of Christ on earth, in fulfillment of the covenantial promises
made to both the individuals therein (ex. Abraham) and to the nation
of Israel, places Christ literally on the throne of David in Jerusalem
for a 1000 yrs. This fulfills both the OT promises and prophecies as
well culminates the Divine illustration that no matter how good an
enviornment fallen man is placed in, he will, in the end, still be
rebellious. The release of Satan at the end of the future millennial
reign of Christ results in the ending of time where men yet retain
their fallen nature. The "sheep" which enter into this Kingdom are not
recepients of resurrected bodies which allows them to yet procreate
and repopulate the human race on earth during that 1000 yrs. This one
of the reasons why the Church has no involvement in the 70th week
(Tribulation era) or the Millennial Kingdom.

You're interpretation totally overlooks and denies the national
promises made to Israel by God .....

Heb. 6:17-18 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to
the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose,
interposed with an oath, in order that by two unchangeable things,
in which it is impossible for God to lie.....

HEBREWS This epistle is directed at Jewish believers.

The Dispensational system of eschatology adheres to a normative
reading of the Scriptures without having to default to some
mystical spiritualization of the text as done by those who adhere
to the allegorical methodology. One must provide evidences
for figurative interpreation and typological application let alone
the dismissal of the literal reading of the Word especially when
the literal reading best adheres to the OT prophecies and their
fulfillment.
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-20 02:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Only if you ignore this parable can your dispensationalist interpretation of Mt
25:31-46 fool anyone.
Not so. Rather it is you false interpretation of the dispensational
interpretation that is unjust. This passage is the judgment of the
Gentiles at the end of the "Great Tribulation" (Mt 24;21). The
Dispensational interpretation complies with Mt 24:37ff in that it is
the unrighteous, both Jew and Gentile that are taken away prior to the
Kingdom Age. Mt 25:1ff speaks of the Jewish judgment while Mt 25:31ff
alludes to the Gentile judgment. Those that remain yet on earth, as
illustrated by Noah in Mt 24:37ff, as those that repopulate the earth.
Post by Matthew Johnson
But really, even if you do ignore the one parable, you should have
for the last verse of the pericope condemns your interpretation.
After all: how can this division be after His "2nd advent" and not
at the end of the world, when the last verse reads: > And they will
go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal
life." (Mat 25:46 RSVA) > This makes it clear that the entire
passage Mt 25:31-46 _must_ refer to the end of the world, NOT to the
beginning of some mythical "millenial kingdom". > This is not
difficult to answer if you would actually exegete the text in front
of you. For in v. 34 there is time markation, "Then." This does not
have to be the inaguration of the Millennial Kingdom any more than
it has to correlate to the "Then" in v 1.
When interpreting prophecy one has to allow for "peaks" and "valleys."
This is well illustrated for us in many places. One of the easiest to
see is Isa 61, which Christ read in the temple (Luke 4:16) but stopped
after reading the first line in the 2nd vs. The "favorable year of the
LORD" was not coordinate with "and the day of vengenace of our God"
immediately following. There is a peak in Mt 25 of the judgment
between Jews and Gentiles as to who enters the literal kingdom on this
earth with a valley of a 1000 years between the peak of vs 34ff which
speaks of entrance into the eternal kingdom.

Your objection is without support. You also have to deny the oath of
Heb 6 and the unconditional nature of the covenants made to literal
Israel the nation. You deny Paul's teaching of Rom 9-11 and his
teaching in Gal 6:16 in their context. "Those who will walk by this
rule [i.e. sola fide] peace and mercy upon them [Gentiles] "kai" the
Israel of God, [believing remnant of Israel] as required by the
context and intent of that epistle. Especially note worth is a
comparison to the "Church of God" in 1 Cor 10:32.

Notice also that v. 31 does not yet have Christ seated on the throne
of David. The "worthless slave" in the preceeding parable was banking
on a non-literal return of Christ to set up His literal kingdom. Now
where does that place you?
gilgames
2007-04-23 02:30:24 UTC
Permalink
***@hotmail.com wrote
<<
But aside of that aspect there is still the mater of why you accept
the literal aspect of "Satan is released now" but not accept the
literal aspect of "1000 yrs." In that Satan is to be chained up during
those 1000 yrs, any encapsulating of the Dark Ages is absurd. Sardis
is a clear exposition that Satan was hardly chained up during that era
of Church history.
My view is that the Church was blodily persecuted till the early 4th
Centruy, than She had power until the Great pandemics in the 14th
Century, and since that time the evil is loose. Naturaly we are not
perfect, there was blood in that 1000 years too, but we have to comapre
it related to 100 million innocent victims of the 20th Century.

<<
You're interpretation totally overlooks and denies the national
promises made to Israel by God .....
I had an uncle, a priest who was in solitary for seven years. One gourd
get him a Hebrew copy of the Deuteronomy. He refreshed his Hebrew and
read it repeatedly. He became preaterist (?spelling). The key is chapter
28, and it completely was fulfilled in AD 70.

Naturally no one, only the Father knows the future.

laszlo
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-24 03:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
My view is that the Church was blodily persecuted till the early 4th
Centruy, than She had power until the Great pandemics in the 14th
Century,
I guess our definition of "The Church" stands in opposition to one
another.
Post by gilgames
and since that time the evil is loose. Naturaly we are not
perfect, there was blood in that 1000 years too,
But this is quite contrary to Isaiah's prophecy of that era being
when the lamb laid down with the lion.
Post by gilgames
but we have to comapre
it related to 100 million innocent victims of the 20th Century.
????????
Post by gilgames
<<
You're interpretation totally overlooks and denies the national
promises made to Israel by God .....
I had an uncle, a priest who was in solitary for seven years. One gourd
get him a Hebrew copy of the Deuteronomy.
Gourd's aren't well known for that sort of thing.
Post by gilgames
He refreshed his Hebrew and
read it repeatedly. He became preaterist (?spelling). The key is chapter
28, and it completely was fulfilled in AD 70.
Preterism does not conform to actual history. It is eisegetical in its
interpretation of the appropriate passages. Also, I don't get the link
between Deuter and preterism.
Post by gilgames
Naturally no one, only the Father knows the future.
Well yes and no. Yes, as to the exact moment when the 70th week
begins but no in that prophecy clearly outlines the events of that
week, what occurs to inaugurate that event and what occurs after
the week as fulfilled by the 2nd Adv. God has not kept silent as to
the various aspects of either the Tribulation or to the Millennium.

Preterism fails to give enough credence to the "already/not yet"
aspect of prophecy. Here Deuter should have been instructional
to your uncle for therein is given the test for a true prophet. The
"already" aspect of prophecy testifies to the truth of the "not yet."
b***@juno.com
2007-04-27 01:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@juno.com
[Paul argues that just as death spread to us from Adam, so does Jesus'
salvation. That does not require us to be guilty of Adam's specific
sinful action, just that the results spread to all of us and leave us
in a situation where we require God's grace.
But if a baby is not guilty of inherited sin, it has no sin at all,
and thus would not need to be saved by Christ. Sin means you are
guilty of something. Babies are guilty of Adam's sin, and later in
their life they add their own sins to the pile.
Post by b***@juno.com
As you may know, Reformed theology tends to emphasize sin as a
condition of alienation from God, rather than emphasizing specific
"sins". So what we inherit from Adam is the condition that resulted
from his action, not the actual action. Calvin's commentary on Romans
makes this clear.
But is a "condition" something we can be culpable for? If our sin
nature at birth is just a condition, it seems we would not need to be
saved from it, and the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ would not
apply to us while we were infants.


Also, the passage of Romans 5 seems to make it clear that Christ's
righteousness is imputed (unjustly in a good way) to cover our sins.
The same principle seems like it should apply to Adam's sinfulness.
Post by b***@juno.com
I never said that babies don't have sin. The paragraph to which you
append this comment says nothing about babies. It says only that
everyone has sin. In fact I believe that everyone, even infants,
inherit the problem of sin, where sin is taken as the condition of
alienation from God. Even if they haven't committed a sinful act, or
at least not one for which they are responsible, they still need God's
grace. However I trust that God has ways of applying grace to infants.
(I am taking no position on the claim that anyone dying in infancy is
automatically saved. If it's true, it's because God chooses to bestow
grace on all of them.)
If babies have sin, what precisely are they guilty of, if not Adam's
sin? If they are "guilty" of having just a "condition" is that really
something they can be blamed for? Can an inborn condition really be
considered to be a sin?

Can we really be blamed for a condition that we are born with? Why
would Christ have to die a substitutionary death for that? Sin usually
seems to involve blameworthy actions, but how can a baby be
blameworthy for a condition they are born with?

Now I realize that saying that babies are guilty of Adam's sin has
similar problems. However, so does the flip side by saying that we are
"guilty" of the righteousness of Christ, which leads us to salvation.
But accepting the righteousness of Christ in place of our sins is the
heart of the gospel.

Nobody seems to have any problem with just accepting the rightousness
of Christ, why can't we do the flip side of the same coin with Adam's
sin? In my opinion, if we accept the imputed righteous actions of
Christ, we should also be willing to accept the imputed sinful actions
of Adam.
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-30 01:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@juno.com
Post by b***@juno.com
[Paul argues that just as death spread to us from Adam, so does Jesus'
salvation. That does not require us to be guilty of Adam's specific
sinful action, just that the results spread to all of us and leave us
in a situation where we require God's grace.
But if a baby is not guilty of inherited sin, it has no sin at all,
and thus would not need to be saved by Christ. Sin means you are
guilty of something. Babies are guilty of Adam's sin, and later in
their life they add their own sins to the pile.
An infant is guilty of Adam's sin. Original sin has been imputed down
into Adam's posterity. This is all true but why has no one here
provided the Scriptural evidence for it? The case to be made
supporting this fact is an easy one for the scriptures provide verse
after verse alluding to it. My aim here is to provide an introduction
to the evidence. Those who wish to argue contrary to the fact must
argue against the Scriptures themselves, not what I am about to write
concerning them....

Gen. 5:3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became
the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and
named him Seth.

Might as well start at the beginning, ehy? Here we are given a
distinguishing factor. Adam's posterity is not after the image of
God, but after the image of Adam. Adam now
has fallen. When the fountain has become polluted, all that streams
forth from that fountain will also be polluted. "A bad tree cannot
bring forth good fruit, can it?" The placement of Gen 5:3 is very
important for it follows Genesis 4. It is not until after the lengthy
obituary list, revealing that sin has spread to the race because Adam
can only begat mortals. Adam not only inaugurated the process of
physical death, but spiritual death as well and he only
is able to propagate that which is "after his kind" (Gen 1:21, 24,
25). Those who come after Adam have inherited his fallen nature which
incorporates within it corruption and death (1 Cor 15:49-50; cp v.
22).

It is interesting to note that almost all translation incorrectly
interpret Ps 14 (which, BTW, is the only Ps repeated nearly verbatim
in Ps 53).

NASB: Ps. 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They
are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who
does good.

KJV: Psa. 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They
are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth
good.

KJV: Psa. 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none
that doeth good.

ASV: Psa. 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They
are corrupt, they have done abominable works; There is none that doeth
good.

But this is not what the Hebrew text actually presents. The Hebrew
literally reads:

"The Fool, in his heart, said, 'No God.'" The point isn't atheism.
The point is a resolve not to align ones self with God. It is a
declaration of non-allegiance to the Creator. But this is not the
point of our discussion. The point is the radical change in number.
Note that "The Fool" is singular. It is a reference directly to
Adam. Immediately following, the number becomes plural, "they," i.e.
Adam's posterity. It is a corporate event.

In both the Psalms and Proverbs, the "fool" is not one who is lacking
in intellectual understanding. It is not intellectual unbelief that
marks the "fool," it is the enmity of one who has rebelled against the
Sovereign Omnipotent of creation. "They" which are described in the
remainder of both Ps 14 and Ps 53 are the children of Adam. ALL have
become rebels. All are, by scriptures declaration, "fools." Paul
exhibits this in Rom 3 where he combines several OT text to read:

Rom. 3:11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for
God;
Rom. 3:12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good, There is not even one. "
Rom. 3:13 " Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they
keep deceiving," " The poison of asps is under their lips";

It is interesting that Paul notes the "poison of asps." As most know,
a new born asp is born with poison already available to it. It does
not need for poison to first develop within its body nor run down to
the store to purchase poison, it inherits it from its parent.
Likewise the children of men. They inherit the corruption of Adam.

One of the most referenced verses in this connection (and not
incorrectly I might add), is:

Ps. 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my
mother conceived me.

But this verse hardly stands alone in its testimony.

Gen. 8:21 And the Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said
to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man,
for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never
again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Job 14:1 "Man, who is born of woman, Is short-lived and full of
turmoil.
Job 14:4 "Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!

Job 17:14 If I call to the pit, 'You are my father'; To the worm, 'my
mother and my sister';

This is an interesting verse because the "worm" is in the Hebrew
actually a grub which is bred in and lives upon putrefaction.
Existence commences in an impure state. It is now the nature of all
men born of Adam. Only the earthy, the sensual, the devilish
propensity now
is inclined in men. Why else did the Messiah have to born of a
"virgin?" Luke 1:35 declares that it would be born only of the woman
so that it might then be "that holy thing." It the Messiah had come
forth from man's productivity, it too would have inherited the
corruption, both physical and spiritual.

Prov. 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod
of discipline will remove it far from him.

Prov. 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his
own way brings shame to his mother.

Again, "foolishness" is not an intellectual failure, it is a positive
principle of evil. It does not indicate idiocy but innate sinful
rebelliousness.

Lam. 3:27 It is good for a man that he should bear the yoke in his
youth.

The discipline of the parent is the order of God's government.
Corporately that discipline comes from local, state and federal
governments. But it all starts in the home. Correction is required
because the nature of the child is naturally rebellious.

Is. 48:8 ".....and you have been called a rebel from womb."

By nature, ever son and daughter of Adam is a "child of
disobedience" (Eph 2:2). It is an internal disposition which leads to
external acts. It is the inclination of man that is now ruined and
unless one is "born again", i.e. "born from above", the sad fact of
reality is that none can "see the kingdom of God." This is Paul's
scope in the Rom 3 passage quoted above. This is why he terms the
corruption of the nature of man as the "old man." This nature is
coeval with our beings. Our very "hearts" are "deceitful above all
things" and that from the first moment of existence.

Total depravity is the doctrinal distinction. Scripture almost
assumes it to the degree that it assume the existence of God Himself.
Those who argue against it do so from the "vain imaginations" of their
own mines for Scriptures have declared the fact from the beginning.
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-30 01:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@juno.com
But is a "condition" something we can be culpable for? If our sin
nature at birth is just a condition, it seems we would not need to be
saved from it, and the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ would not
apply to us while we were infants.
Some like to argue that if original sin is inherited from Adam then
where is the evidence of equal corruptability. Certainly I have known
those who have rejected the Gospel but live very ethical lives. But
there seems to be at least three objections to this supposition.

One. All things considered, it is an illogical conclusion for there
is no dictate that corruption will expressly manifest itself in
exactly the same manner, let alone the exact same extent. Many
factors come into the resolve. Take those who are raised by ungodly
parents to those who are raised by god fearing parents. There are
those who grow up in educational poverity as opposed to those who grow
up in an "intellectual" society. This is easily illustrated by the
historical evidence that as both having the Scriptures translated into
the common tongue and the advent of "science" and education to the
masses, the standard fare of the Middle (Dark) Ages of superstition,
open demonic activity, open paganism, and worse were dispelled or at
least driven underground. A refined enviornment does place a measure
of restraint upon the corrupt nature of men. Outward conduct is
regulated by many factor. However though there are diversities in
men's lives, the original causality of all of man's imaginations is
impure and non-inclined to please God.

Two. The sovereign restraint of men by God. (2 Thes 2:6, 7; Rom
1:24, 26, 28).

Three. The very nature of evil itself. I will not devolope this
point now but if a full study wish to gained of it, one needs only to
find and read Mullers' two volume exposition, "The Christian Doctrine
of Sin."
l***@hotmail.com
2007-04-30 01:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@juno.com
Nobody seems to have any problem with just accepting the rightousness
of Christ, why can't we do the flip side of the same coin with Adam's
sin? In my opinion, if we accept the imputed righteous actions of
Christ, we should also be willing to accept the imputed sinful actions
of Adam.
This is an excellent point however, IMHO, I believe you over state the
case by alluding to it as being the "flip side of the same coin."
THis is not true because all inherit Adam's fallen nature while all do
not inherit Christ's righteousness. Rom 5 is a comparative analysis,
not a parallelism. Universalism has no monolithic scriptural
support.

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