State of God's Multiverse

[qquito]

Dear Everyone:

Since everybody knows about God only PARTIALLY, nobody can preclude
the possibility that God has made a MULTIVERSE instead of a UNIVERSE.

Suppose that is the case and, therefore, there are a multitude of
parallel and identical universes, and each started exactly the same
way with its Adam and Eve.

Now the question. Uptill now, has the Fall of Man occured in ALL of
the parallel universes? Or has it occured only in SOME of the
universes? If the latter, what's it like to be in one that the Fall
of Man has NOT occured?

Thank you for reading and replying!

--Roland

[Red]

Post by qquito
Since everybody knows about God only PARTIALLY, nobody can preclude
the possibility that God has made a MULTIVERSE instead of a UNIVERSE.
Suppose that is the case and, therefore, there are a multitude of
parallel and identical universes, and each started exactly the same
way with its Adam and Eve.
Now the question. Uptill now, has the Fall of Man occured in ALL of
the =A0parallel universes? Or has it occured only in SOME of the
universes? If the latter, what's it like to be in one that =A0the Fall
of Man has NOT occured?
Thank you for reading and replying!
--Roland

Pure speculation. But given the inquisitive nature of man, I'd say it
occurred in all multiverses. If not by Adam or Eve, surely by one of
their kids.

Red

[qquito]

Thank you, Red, for your reply! What you say suggests that either the
Fall of Man is part of God's plan, or God is unable to make a Man that
would NOT fall. In other words, there is simply no chance for Man not
to fall.

Post by Red
Pure speculation. But given the inquisitive nature of man, I'd say it
occurred in all multiverses. If not by Adam or Eve, surely by one of
their kids.
Red

[Gordon]

Post by qquito
Thank you, Red, for your reply! What you say suggests that either the
Fall of Man is part of God's plan, or God is unable to make a Man that
would NOT fall. In other words, there is simply no chance for Man not
to fall.

Yes, the fall of man was definitely a part of God's plan, but it
wasn't a malevolent plan at all. God has us all going through
this brief interval of exposure to sin and rebellion for the
express purpose of "educating" us to the level of competency that
will insure that none of us will ever want to go back and tinker
around with sin and rebellion, again, once we have been granted
immortality and absolute sovereignty.

Gordon

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by qquito
Thank you, Red, for your reply! What you say suggests that either the
Fall of Man is part of God's plan, or God is unable to make a Man
that would NOT fall. In other words, there is simply no chance for
Man not to fall.

No, that does not follow, as Augustine proved so well in "De Spiritu &
Littera". I won't recapitulate the details here. I will only say that
in order to get your conclusion from your premises, you need something
more, such as Empiricism.

'Red' did not assume such Empiricism. Why should you?

[snip]

[Red]

Post by qquito
Thank you, Red, for your reply! What you say suggests that either the
Fall of Man is part of God's plan, or God is unable to make a Man that
would NOT fall. In other words, there is simply no chance for Man not
to fall.

1. I don't believe the "fall of man" was planned by God. But surely
he knew that by giving man "free will", the odds were humongous that
he would. Put a man alone in a room with nothing but a table with a
book on it. Tell him to ignore the book. I guarantee 99.99% will
check out the book within 1 hour.

2. In order to make a man that would NOT fall, he would have had to
eliminate the "free will & curiosity" criteria. In other words we
would not have the traits that make us human.

3. That being said, I believe that the whole story of Adam & Eve is
symbolic rather than factual. It is man's excuse/rationale for "why
we are the way we are".

Would this also be true in a multiverse? No way of knowing, but I
would expect any modernized society got to the modernized status
through curiosity, ability to reason, & hard work just like we did.

Red

[qquito]

Thank you, Red, for your reply! What you say suggests that either the
Fall of Man is part of God's plan, or God is unable to make a Man that
would NOT fall. In other words, there is simply no chance for Man not
to fall.

Post by Red
Pure speculation. But given the inquisitive nature of man, I'd say it
occurred in all multiverses. If not by Adam or Eve, surely by one of
their kids.
Red

[qquito]

Post by Red
1. I don't believe the "fall of man" was planned by God. But surely
he knew that by giving man "free will", the odds were humongous that
he would. Put a man alone in a room with nothing but a table with a
book on it. Tell him to ignore the book. I guarantee 99.99% will
check out the book within 1 hour.

R: Well, since God is omniscient, He certainly had foreseen what would
happen. If He had not liked what He foresaw, He would not have made
the world this way. You speek of "odds".

Post by Red
2. In order to make a man that would NOT fall, he would have had to
eliminate the "free will & curiosity" criteria. In other words we
would not have the traits that make us human.

R: No, He does not have to eliminate the "free will". Since God is
omnipotent, He can create a man with both "free will" and reasonable
intelligence so that he can choose---in stead of being forced---NOT to
eat the "forbidden fruit". As in today's world, everybody can FREELY
choose to jump off a skyscraper or a cliff, to lie his/her body on a
railway to be run over by a train, to put his/her hands in an oven, to
throw his/her own money on the street, to burn his/her own house,
etc., etc.. But most people CHOOSE not to. The reason? They have
adequate intelligence to know the consequence. By the same token, if
Adam and Eve had been intelligent enough to know the consequence, they
would have NOT eaten the forbidden fruit.

Post by Red
3. That being said, I believe that the whole story of Adam & Eve is
symbolic rather than factual. It is man's excuse/rationale for "why
we are the way we are".

R: Many believers think it is literal truth. If Adam and Eve's story
is up to free interpretation, which part of the Bible is NOT?

Post by Red
Would this also be true in a multiverse? No way of knowing, but I
would expect any modernized society got to the modernized status
through curiosity, ability to reason, & hard work just like we did.
Red

[qquito]

Gordon: You would NOT play a real life-and-death game with your son
just to "educate" him.

God is omnipotent by definition, which means He can "educate" you
without letting you actually go through the real ordeals.

--Roland

Post by Gordon

Post by qquito
Thank you, Red, for your reply! What you say suggests that either the
Fall of Man is part of God's plan, or God is unable to make a Man that
would NOT fall. In other words, there is simply no chance for Man not
to fall.

Yes, the fall of man was definitely a part of God's plan, but it
wasn't a malevolent plan at all. God has us all going through
this brief interval of exposure to sin and rebellion for the
express purpose of "educating" us to the level of competency that
will insure that none of us will ever want to go back and tinker
around with sin and rebellion, again, once we have been granted
immortality and absolute sovereignty.
Gordon

[Gordon]

Post by qquito
Gordon: You would NOT play a real life-and-death game with your son
just to "educate" him.
God is omnipotent by definition, which means He can "educate" you
without letting you actually go through the real ordeals.
--Roland

True, because I don't have the power to ressurect him and
compensate him for this suffering.

Education without experience equates to a form of puppet. Would
God want us as puppets?

Gordon

[qquito]

Do we educate a child about the danger of snake-bite by actually
letting a cobra bite him/her, or the danger of drowning by atually
forcing him/her under the surface of water? If we merely tell him/her
the danger, are we making the child a puppet? --Roland

......
Education without experience equates to a form of puppet. Would
God want us as puppets?
Gordon

[B.G. Kent]

Post by qquito
Do we educate a child about the danger of snake-bite by actually
letting a cobra bite him/her, or the danger of drowning by atually
forcing him/her under the surface of water? If we merely tell him/her
the danger, are we making the child a puppet? --Roland

......
Education without experience equates to a form of puppet. Would
God want us as puppets?
Gordon

B - I figure to know of the danger one has to first have had some one who
experienced it first hand to even though that it IS a danger.

just a thot.
Bren

[Gordon]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:54:07 GMT, qquito <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Education can take many forms. We don't have to experience things
first hand to learn from the experiences of others. I doubt any
of us would give serious regard to the risk of drowning, or a
cobra bite had we never heard of or seen the effects such an
event had on someone else. Gordon

Post by qquito
Do we educate a child about the danger of snake-bite by actually
letting a cobra bite him/her, or the danger of drowning by atually
forcing him/her under the surface of water? If we merely tell him/her
the danger, are we making the child a puppet? --Roland

......
Education without experience equates to a form of puppet. Would
God want us as puppets?
Gordon

[qquito]

If God's form of education has to involve countless wars, murders,
epidemics, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, cancers, heartattacks,
snake-bite, bear-attacks, traffic accidents, religious wars, etc.,
etc., what will be Satan's form of education?

Post by Gordon
Education can take many forms. We don't have to experience things
first hand to learn from the experiences of others. I doubt any
of us would give serious regard to the risk of drowning, or a
cobra bite had we never heard of or seen the effects such an
event had on someone else. Gordon

Post by qquito
Do we educate a child about the danger of snake-bite by actually
letting a cobra bite him/her, or the danger of drowning by atually
forcing him/her under the surface of water? If we merely tell him/her
the danger, are we making the child a puppet? --Roland

......
Education without experience equates to a form of puppet. Would
God want us as puppets?
Gordon

[B.G. Kent]

Post by qquito
If God's form of education has to involve countless wars, murders,
epidemics, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, cancers, heartattacks,
snake-bite, bear-attacks, traffic accidents, religious wars, etc.,
etc., what will be Satan's form of education?

B - that IS Satan's form of education...then again I don't believe in
Satan as an entity..only as the fear that resides in people. We believe we
are separate from God...so in that fear we are cast out to make all kinds
of mistakes and learn lessons. God doesn't cause those things to
happen....our fear does.

I.M.O
Bren

[Gordon]

Post by qquito
If God's form of education has to involve countless wars, murders,
epidemics, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, cancers, heartattacks,
snake-bite, bear-attacks, traffic accidents, religious wars, etc.,
etc., what will be Satan's form of education?

May I suggest that you review the first two chapters of the Book
of Job. God doesn't instigate all these harsh situations, but he
does allow Satan to exercise his agenda, and Satan does have
enormous capabilities for causing the hardships you mention.

God is allowing us to fully explore ALL the vagaries of sin and
rebellion and learn enough about these things to assure God that
we will never, ever want to go back and tinker around with any of
it again, once we have been granted immortality and complete
sovereignty.

We won't be puppets, pre-programmed to comply with the will of
God. We will be absolutely sovereign beings who will do the will
of God because this shall then be exactly and precisely our own
will. Gordon

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by qquito
Since everybody knows about God only PARTIALLY, nobody can preclude
the possibility that God has made a MULTIVERSE instead of a UNIVERSE.

Your conclusion does not follow from your stated premise.

Post by qquito
Suppose that is the case and, therefore, there are a multitude of
parallel and identical universes, and each started exactly the same
way with its Adam and Eve.

Why bother?

Post by qquito
Now the question. Uptill now, has the Fall of Man occured in ALL of
the parallel universes? Or has it occured only in SOME of the
universes? If the latter, what's it like to be in one that the Fall
of Man has NOT occured?
Thank you for reading and replying!
--Roland

The email addresses listed in 'qquito', but the signature is 'Roland'. How did
this happen?

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by qquito
Since everybody knows about God only PARTIALLY, nobody can preclude
the possibility that God has made a MULTIVERSE instead of a UNIVERSE.

Your conclusion does not follow from your stated premise.

Post by qquito
Suppose that is the case and, therefore, there are a multitude of
parallel and identical universes, and each started exactly the same
way with its Adam and Eve.

Why bother?

Post by qquito
Now the question. Uptill now, has the Fall of Man occured in ALL of
the parallel universes? Or has it occured only in SOME of the
universes? If the latter, what's it like to be in one that the Fall
of Man has NOT occured?
Thank you for reading and replying!
--Roland

The email addresses listed in the NNTP header is'qquito', but the signature is
'Roland'. How did this happen?

[B.G. Kent]

***snip

Post by qquito
Now the question. Uptill now, has the Fall of Man occured in ALL of
the parallel universes? Or has it occured only in SOME of the
universes? If the latter, what's it like to be in one that the Fall
of Man has NOT occured?
Thank you for reading and replying!
--Roland

B - interesting Roland. Obviously..as with most anything to do with
spirit...we can only guess or muse upon it. I do see the story of Adam and
Eve as a pre-Judaic mythos....hard for me to see it as literal...so I'm
out of this. :) sorry!

HOpe you had a blessed Christmas.
Bren

[Bob Crowley]

Post by qquito
Since everybody knows about God only PARTIALLY, nobody can preclude
the possibility that God has made a MULTIVERSE instead of a UNIVERSE.
Suppose that is the case and, therefore, there are a multitude of
parallel and identical universes, and each started exactly the same
way with its Adam and Eve.
Now the question. Uptill now, has the Fall of Man occured in ALL of
the parallel universes? Or has it occured only in SOME of the
universes? If the latter, what's it like to be in one that the Fall
of Man has NOT occured?
Thank you for reading and replying!
--Roland

Such a universe would be static, since there would be no need for that
version of Adam and Eve to do antything other than tend the garden.
To some extent we're driven to solve problems because problems arise.
In that universe there would be no problems.

One more reason why the Fall was planned, and not a "Whoops! They've
stuffed it up! Now what will I do?" And that's also why the devil's
there. He's a catalyst. Due to his presence, the outworkings of evil
in the world are greatly accelerated, forcing us to make decisions as
to which way we'll go ourselves.

And without him there would have been no Fall. So for any fair
comparison to a "Multiverse", for things to be equal, God would also
have to create another highly intelligent Deceiver for each universe.

I suspect God finds one at a time unpleasant enough to deal with. He
would also have to create multiple Hells.

[qquito]

Well, since God is omnipotent, it is not a bit more tiresome to create
a multitude of identical universes.

Will the Heaven be static? Do the souls in Heaven have to fight evils
and solve pratical problems?

---Roland

......
Such a universe would be static, since there would be no need for that
version of Adam and Eve to do antything other than tend the garden.
To some extent we're driven to solve problems because problems arise.
In that universe there would be no problems.
One more reason why the Fall was planned, and not a "Whoops! They've
stuffed it up! Now what will I do?" And that's also why the devil's
there. He's a catalyst. Due to his presence, the outworkings of evil
in the world are greatly accelerated, forcing us to make decisions as
to which way we'll go ourselves.
And without him there would have been no Fall. So for any fair
comparison to a "Multiverse", for things to be equal, God would also
have to create another highly intelligent Deceiver for each universe.
I suspect God finds one at a time unpleasant enough to deal with. He
would also have to create multiple Hells.

[Bob Crowley]

Post by qquito
Well, since God is omnipotent, it is not a bit more tiresome to create
a multitude of identical universes.
Will the Heaven be static? Do the souls in Heaven have to fight evils
and solve pratical problems?
---Roland

......
Such a universe would be static, since there would be no need for that
version of Adam and Eve to do antything other than tend the garden.
To some extent we're driven to solve problems because problems arise.
In that universe there would be no problems.
One more reason why the Fall was planned, and not a "Whoops! They've
stuffed it up! Now what will I do?" And that's also why the devil's
there. He's a catalyst. Due to his presence, the outworkings of evil
in the world are greatly accelerated, forcing us to make decisions as
to which way we'll go ourselves.
And without him there would have been no Fall. So for any fair
comparison to a "Multiverse", for things to be equal, God would also
have to create another highly intelligent Deceiver for each universe.
I suspect God finds one at a time unpleasant enough to deal with. He
would also have to create multiple Hells.

We don't know what heaven will be like. What we do know is that the
sons of God will have glorious freedom. I'm not particularly enamored
of falling down singing Hallelujah for eternity, or standing around on
golden streets playing frisbee with our halos.

The same God who made earth, with all the things there are for us to
do here, is the same God who created Heaven. If the family style is
anything to go by, there'll be things to do, but they won't be the
onerous rubbish that often comprises work here.

I remember an old pastor who had a driven personality. He used to
work very hard, to an extent which would have exhausted most other
people, but even he in one of his sermons said. "One of my ministerial
friends once said to me, "Brother, think of all the work we'll be able
to do when we get to heaven!" I thought to myself, "Blow that for a
joke. The first thing I'll be doing when I get to heaven will be to
look around for a good bush to crawl under and lie down.""

We don't know what heaven will be like. And why worry? To get there
all you've got to do is die.

It reminds me of a sticker I saw on a car recently. "Don't take life
so seriously. It isn't permanent."

[qquito]

Well, since God is omnipotent, it is not a bit more tiresome to create
a multitude of identical universes.

Will the Heaven be static? Do the souls in Heaven have to fight evils
and solve pratical problems?

---Roland

......
Such a universe would be static, since there would be no need for that
version of Adam and Eve to do antything other than tend the garden.
To some extent we're driven to solve problems because problems arise.
In that universe there would be no problems.

...>

I suspect God finds one at a time unpleasant enough to deal with. He
would also have to create multiple Hells.

[Matthew Johnson]

In article <5z9ij.1702$***@trndny04>, Bob Crowley says...
[snip]

Post by Bob Crowley
We don't know what heaven will be like. And why worry? To get there
all you've got to do is die.

Why, oh why, isn't it obvious how WRONG this is? If that were all there was to
it, so many of the warnings in Scripture would be completely pointless. Yet they
are there, so your conclusion must be false.

Besides: if your conclusion were true, then there would be no point to the
viaticum and extreme unction. But the Tradition of the Church is clear: both are
very valuable and useful, far from 'pointless'.

[KC]

Post by qquito
Since everybody knows about God only PARTIALLY, nobody can preclude
the possibility that God has made a MULTIVERSE instead of a UNIVERSE.
Suppose that is the case and, therefore, there are a multitude of
parallel and identical universes, and each started exactly the same
way with its Adam and Eve.
Now the question. Uptill now, has the Fall of Man occured in ALL of
the =A0parallel universes? Or has it occured only in SOME of the
universes? If the latter, what's it like to be in one that =A0the Fall
of Man has NOT occured?
Thank you for reading and replying!
--Roland

Matter and antimatter are extremely opposed to each other, so much so
that they annihilate each other when they come in contact. Yet they
were both made by God to exist in the same universe. There are many
parallels of A vs B, i.e. good vs evil, God vs Satan, atheists vs
believers, muslims vs christians, Republicans vs Democrats, and the
list goes on & on. Perhaps God just enjoys a little excitement in his
life and making man to see what outrageous things he would do added to
that feeling.

KC

[qquito]

If that is indeed the case, then the God is no different from the
Roman emperors who enjoyed watching the fight between lions and human
slaves. And we should forget such idea as God's love. Or we have to
agree that the Roman emperors LOVED the slaves and lions that were
pitted against each other in the coliseum. --Roland

......
Matter and antimatter are extremely opposed to each other, so much so
that they annihilate each other when they come in contact. Yet they
were both made by God to exist in the same universe. There are many
parallels of A vs B, i.e. good vs evil, God vs Satan, atheists vs
believers, muslims vs christians, Republicans vs Democrats, and the
list goes on & on. Perhaps God just enjoys a little excitement in his
life and making man to see what outrageous things he would do added to
that feeling.
KC