Discussion:
In the clinch with Christianity, a man-made religion (as all others)
(too old to reply)
Carl Sagan's billions
2009-05-20 02:12:07 UTC
Permalink
The intent of this post is not to preach or to convert but to let
other
searchers know how I struggled, overcame, outgrew and finally
had to reject Christianity.

I struggled for many years (when I was a student) trying
to understand Christianity, God, Jesus, Satan, Genesis, etc.

I tried to come to grips with the basic doctrines, core beliefs and
ideas of Christianity, i.e., with the real essence of Christianity. I
tried to understand the various teachings and also the contradictions
in Old versus New Testament.

What was the truth? Why? What did it all mean?
Why all these stories? Why were 66 old Jewish books selected
from among the many and bundled into a Western bible?

Why and how did Christianity and Islam arise from Judaism?
Why did the Christian merciful and loving God require his son to die
for us at a cross, where did the fall in the Garden of Eden
come from and what was its meaning, who was Satan, where is heaven,
who or what is God, is there a soul, etc., etc.,

Questions and questions and always more questions.

I also tried to understand the behavior of so-called Christian
nations, colonizing or wreaking havoc in non-Christian countries
(and now again conducting horrible neo-colonial bombing wars for
oil and gas on non-Christian darker-skinned peoples in Asia and
Africa (Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Philippines, to name a few).

I tried to understand the enslavement and killing of Africans, the
mass murder of native Indians, and the many horrible wars waged
by Christian Americans and Europeans on poor, often darker
skinned, people all over the world. And the World Wars started
by Christian nations in Europe.

Christianity was supposed to be a religion of peace, of turning
the other cheek, of loving your neighbor like yourself,
and it was very clear to me it was not, its philosophies did not
work, or did not enlighten its believers, or at least did not
seem to lead to a better and more humane world.

I contemplated the Genesis creation story, with Adam and Eve
as the first human couple, Noah and the flood, the many prophets,
the Messiah, the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the resurrection,
revelations, and the many stories and prophecies in the Bible.

Then very slowly (over at least 5 years) I came to understand
and accept several truths described below. These truths enabled me to
gradually throw off the yoke, the blinders and the intellectual
shackles imposed by a long childhood indoctrination in Christianity.

And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)

I BECAME FREE ----- FOREVER ----- !

That was still pretty dramatic, e.g., when I read Robinson's
Honest-to-God and followed his brave search for answers (a search
beyond the usual Christian dogmas and ideas) I cried
and shivered.

While reading his questions and ideas, he suddenly made me
realize it's both bold and brave to jettison anything that does not
make sense. He was trying to get there but in the end he did not
fully make it. He could not break through and become free.

But he was the first one who made me see a glimmer of
light and hope in my own search: To think 'out of the (Christian)
box', and especially to no longer feel restricted by ancient 'holy'
books and ideas, to no longer feel obliged to take ideas and beliefs
at face value, i.e., to no longer accept:

"We can't explain it, but you have to 'believe', it's all true!"
"God has a plan for you, but we can't begin to understand it."

Then my struggle completely changed from thinking solely about
what was written, translated, changed, edited, and embellished
in the Bible and trying to make sense out of THAT, to thinking about
what really made sense - to me.

This was followed later by thinking about Teilhard de Chardin's
fantastic and elaborate ideas of increasing complexity. As
Robinson he was searching for answers and came up very
ingeniously with divine forces driving towards increased complexity.

As Robinson he also did not quite make it, but in his thinking
he was jumping miles ahead of the ordinary Christian theologian.
The standard Christian answers were not working for him either.
So with endless creativity he developed grandiose and remarkable
new ideas as a substitute for the explanations by Christianity that
failed him.

That was later followed by Dobzhansky's books on evolution,
Bertrand Russell's courage, wisdom and ideas,
books on comparative religion, and others.
I slowly began to realize:

'There was no need to struggle anymore - forever':

Not due to surrender, but due to liberation: Liberation from
irrationality, illogic and indoctrination in ancient religious
beliefs.

I understood ---- and (as happened with Galileo when he understood the
position of the earth and its path in the solar system) these insights
and thereby this freedom was really irreversible.

I understood that religion develops in any human tribe or culture,
and that different cultures will develop different religions. And
with those insights the hold of mental slavery in the form of
Christianity (as well as the philosophies of life of related, similar
mono-theistic religions = believing in one single all-powerful
God', i.e., Islam and Judaism) was broken - - forever.

The mind broke free and I was now flying unencumbered.

No longer mentally stunted, no longer kept in intellectual captivity,
no longer bogged down in difficult struggles and confusion about
the hodgepodge of ideas provided by ancient 'holy' books and various
derived books.

These are the 10 basic (simplified) truths I came to understand:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
ideas and concepts that accompanied the development of
various cultures. These ideas evolved over generations and were
of course influenced by other religions, cultures and people
migrations.

They were gradually accepted, adapted, embellished and written
down as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life, the (new)
gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.

2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.

Why? Evolution is a fact and nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that - per definition -
makes us immortal) suddenly inserted in a certain species and
at a discrete point in time by an external power/deity.

If I contend that the 'soul' was suddenly inserted in a living
"human" being, e.g., 1 million years ago, I must then believe that
his or her parents of practically the same intelligence did not have
a soul. Why would a deity start with inserting a 'soul' in a new
infant at a discrete point in time? And maybe insert a soul in his/
her future mate as well so that all descendants from then on would
have a soul (while discounting the parents, and their parents, and
their parents, etc., all with practically the same intelligence)?

For me that does not make sense so I face two conclusions:

All living beings have a soul (e.g. as part of the 'essence' of LIFE,
however we define that) or no living beings have a soul. As I
do not believe a worm has a soul, I conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being is a man-made construct."

It is man-made because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
exist forever, that we consist of more than matter and that
that extra is basically immaterial and will go on forever.

We also fear death. We cannot accept being gone forever.
We cannot accept never to see loved ones again.
We cannot understand death and the reason for death.

We must deny death so we must believe we are immortal.
We also have a need to formulate reasons for our existence.

We have a deep need to believe that we will outlast all the
pain and misery in our earth-bound lives and will 'live happily
ever after' in a glorious place of light and joy called 'heaven'.

3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are man-made, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are man-made. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally and developed written
and unwritten rules, rites and laws: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.

4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free
choice to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting,
death, etc., already existed millions of years before human beings
came about.

That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point in time where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice
to obey or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at
the cross to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and
never (suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).

The Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all sins
for all people forever for all times. That brilliant idea of hope
and total redemption and forgiveness by the almighty ruler
likely arose from much older pagan religions that had human
sacrifices at their core:

The ultimate sacrifice, as proof of total obedience and worship,
is giving up your most valuable and loved 'asset', which is to give
up/offer/sacrifice your own SON (as in the Abraham-Isaac story).

That's why 'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ
- the Son, God's own Son - was sacrificed by God, the Father,
and died for the sins of all mankind.

This was really a BRILLIANT and UNLIMITED expansion of the
original but much more limited idea behind human sacrifices.

Not only did the all-powerful God himself give part of himself (the
Son) as the sacrifice, this sacrifice was so big, so ALL
encompassing, so full of love and acceptance and mercy, that
it forgave ALL sins of ALL human beings for ALL times --
forever!!!

This idea is really mind-boggling in its ingenuity, vision and scope.

However as our species, Homo Sapiens, evolved over millions
of years, there was never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago.

That means Eve disobeying God and eating from the fruit
never happened. That means the 'fall' in the garden of Eden
never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g. a million years
earlier never happened.

That means the philosophy of Jesus Christ having to die for
our original sin, for us disobeying God, has no basis in fact.

Our ancestors millions of years ago did not have the
intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.

Even if the ideas of original sin and the fall are allegories,
they do not make sense versus the path of our evolution.

So the core philosophy of Christianity (that we disobeyed
God out of free will and thereby sinned and therefore needed
punishment and therefore needed Jesus to save us) is not true.

5. The Christian concept that we can only be saved by accepting
Christ as our savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.

There are also over 200-400 billion stars in our own galaxy,
the Milky Way, and at least 100-200 billion OTHER galaxies in
the visible universe, each one on average containing over
100 billion stars.

Assuming only 1 inhabited 'civilized' planet per billion stars, which
is a very conservative estimate, then there are over 10,000
billion (!) inhabited planets in our visible universe. It is
illogical to assume that God sacrificed his son on tens of millions
or even tens of billions of planets.

6. All religions are man-made, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into very structured and fixed beliefs = organized religion.
As cultures develop differently, also depending on geographic
location, available resources, trade, closeness with other
cultures, etc., their religions develop(ed) differently.

That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of
existing religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations
are created all the time, all over the world.

There are always new cultural developments and new thinkers
with new ideas, creative thinkers who reject or modify or
re-interpret the older ideas and are able to entice multitudes with
new insights of hope.

7. All religions and their spin-offs are man-made, and the concept
of 'God' in Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man-made.

As nowhere in the material world we see real physical acts/actions on
matter by a 'God', there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian or Islamic or Jewish
God (who controls, guards, acts on matter = interferes in our material
world) exists.

8. So we have to face the fact, with courage but without despair,
and conclude that:

'GOD' IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.

As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:

There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
our physical environment.

That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce/assume
a supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter.

Therefore the conclusion is that God as defined by
Christianity, Islam and Judaism does not exist and was made up.

The concept of God as a single all-powerful ruling entity sprouted
from preceding religions and cultures, and is man-made.

You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
When you are matter or tied to matter (e.g., light, sound,
magnetism) you can be observed, measured, etc., and
thus be proven to exist.

If you cannot prove it exists, you cannot convince me to
believe it exists. If you cannot prove it exists, you cannot
prove it is all-powerful and acts on matter.

Examples:
The recent terrible cyclone in Myanmar, over 100,000 dead.
The recent terrible earthquake in China, over 80,000 dead.
In the 2004 tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 innocent
people died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.

The earth core is still cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.

Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
He does not cause these disasters, and he does not prevent them.

9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
most profound mystery of all

--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----

does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors and determines everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.

In the coming centuries many more mysteries will be resolved.
That means religions/religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute 'truths'
as described in 'holy' books in various religions.

Religions always consist of a mixture of man-made philosophies,
myths, theories, taboos, legends, laws, rules, remnants of earlier
religions, etc.. Explanations from hundreds of years or even much
longer ago will be pushed back or often changed or voided by
science and more rational explanations.

That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our own existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a new and science-based
explanation of life and death, or even reform itself into a more
rational philosophy of life. The gap cannot be bridged.

So it will remain an anti-scientific and mostly STATIC belief system,
based on fixed explanations for life and death and
the reason for our existence, made by men and women who
lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.

The contradiction and discrepancies between what we learn from
science and the fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands
of years ago will grow. Christianity and other similar religions
will have difficulty to survive as a philosophy of life.

The psychological human need for spirituality will not disappear,
but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such as Christianity,
Islam and Judaism will become less and less acceptable to
more and more people.

The rites, rituals, songs, communal feelings, music, spiritual
teachings and social interactions may survive but the doctrines and
dogmas cannot survive in their current absolutist forms.

10. The core issue is really a direct conflict between:

o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and

o the scientific/rational approach or persona

Spirituality will probably stay in various forms; dogmatic religions
based on ancient fixed beliefs will probably slowly disappear or
remain with smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated, the
un-enlightened, the desperate or the permanently indoctrinated.

As we all know, indoctrination in the first twenty-some years of
one's life is superstrong and often will never be overcome. The brain
seems to get hardwired in believing in the non-rational
it was fed so many times and with so much 'compelling' force.

There often may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
probably will (albeit very slowly) void ancient belief systems.

However, religion can very well hang on for a very long time,
even when becoming unsatisfactory to many more people, e.g.
when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
and complexity of the physical universe and its inhabitants.

But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment, sports, and
the unending accumulation of material possessions:
The absence or substitute for or even opposite of spirituality.

This basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
including Christianity and Islam, in their core will stay so anti-
science. They can never embrace a much more rational belief
system that so clearly exposes the fallacies in their inherited
belief system.

============================================
Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?

Instead of believing in fixed philosophies, laws and taboos
created by men and women many hundreds and even thousands
of years ago (people who did not know any better (not their fault)),
it is much better to determine your own beliefs and truths.

This goes hand in hand with investigating and coming to grips
with the many insights provided by science.

That will enable us to leave behind outdated laws, fears,
prejudices, misconceptions, racism, intolerance,
supremacy feelings, and ancient ideas about death,
heaven, hell, sin, soul, gods, etc.

That freedom will jettison all the religious ballast that is a
constant obstruction and obstacle to a better, more rational
and more humane world. Rejecting Christianity is not a loss,
it is an opportunity for a more tolerant and humane world.

Rationality does not ENSURE more humanity, but in my
opinion it is a more promising path than non-rationality.
Rationality combined with strong humanism may guide us
to a better world of fairness, the alleviation of poverty,
of global sharing and caring, to justice and peace and
to the avoidance of wars.

Do I think this is feasible? Not that much: Power, greed, racism,
and power politics are superstrong human and societal forces
(for injustice, wars, killing, irrationality, waste, destruction,
hate, intolerance, violence, etc.).

But it may show the direction of hope which we can then analyze
rationally. That may empower and enable us to plan a path and
build societal AND global structures to channel, restrict or even
partially control the beast.

Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions
DKleinecke
2009-05-21 02:06:25 UTC
Permalink
On May 19, 7:12 pm, Carl Sagan's billions <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

<much too long to copy>

Reasonably eloquently done, if not very original. We have been
wrestling over all of these matters for a long time now and doubtless
will continue to wrestle for the foreseeable future.

I just want to comment on one snippet which is, to my mind, the crux
of all your words
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
'GOD' IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
In a word that has been tossed around a couple of times recently -
this is presuppositional.

The presupposition being that "our material world = universe" is all
that matters. The basis of most of the rest of argument is that you
"find it illogical" that you cannot find god in the physical world. I
think you are projecting your own opinions onto god - if you were god
you wouldn't be so difficult to find.

But, as we must keep saying, god is transcendental. Mankind cannot
understand god. Any hint that god "should" be "thinking" as one thinks
is an error.

That you cannot locate god in the physical universe is no surprise.
God created the physical universe so god cannot possibly be in it. But
god is easy to locate if you look beyond the physical universe into
what might be called the psychic universe. God hasn't disappeared,
died or absconded.
news
2009-05-22 01:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by DKleinecke
But, as we must keep saying, god is transcendental. Mankind cannot
understand god. Any hint that god "should" be "thinking" as one thinks
is an error.
That you cannot locate god in the physical universe is no surprise.
God created the physical universe so god cannot possibly be in it. But
god is easy to locate if you look beyond the physical universe into
what might be called the psychic universe. God hasn't disappeared,
died or absconded.
B- I believe God is apart of all that is. I see God in everything. Doesn't
it depend on what people think God looks like? I see God as both having a
face and faceless.
God is both in it and around it ...the watcher and the reflection.
I.M.O
Bren

l***@hotmail.com
2009-05-21 02:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
The intent of this post is not to preach or to convert but to let
other
searchers know how I struggled, overcame, outgrew and finally
had to reject Christianity.
Fair enough. I have read your post all the way through and
see similarities and contrasts. Will you give what I am about to
write the same recognition.

First, I will say that your rejection can either be final or
it may be what many of us have experienced, temporary. When
I came out of seminary, having great difficulty finding an
assembly of believers that honored the scriptures, slowly
my wife and I began to look at Sunday as a wonderful day
off from work and a day free to ourselves. As the first child
came, 2 years later, we again felt the need to find a church,
if for no other reason, to raise our children in the values that
only true Christianity affords. It, after all, granted me a
strong work ethic which in turn afforded me the wherewithall
to climb the corporate ladder. But in time, I was, and I think
my word is correct, extruded into teaching an adult Sunday
school class. And me being who I am, could not teach at
the normal level, dove into developing and explaining the
Reformed/Biblical doctrines that the Church had held to for
nearly 2 millennia. That led into a class on the attributes,
then into Romans. So many lives where changed by the
time we were forced out of that little church for taking such
a firm stand on sola scriptura, that it set me once again to
ask of my inner self, "What's it all about."

I did not really return to my faith, (or rather, was dragged back
before Him, or as Anselm wrote, "... hope in Him whom you
fear,. Flee to Him from whom you have fled. Boldly call on
Him whom you have haughtily provoked") for another 10-15 yrs.
What did occur at that time was a rationalistic approach to
faith. In time He did as Jude's doxology proclaims, having
kept me all those years (without my full realization of it), He
established my proverbial feet before His presence and I
turned back to Him. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. What
I thought had be leading me away from Him, only, in the
final analysis, led me back to Him in a more sure and more
realistic and personal way.

You may presently reject Him, but if He has chosen you
to be one of His sons, He knows how to discipline and goad
you back into the sheepfold. Otherwise there is no other
conclusion to draw other than...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for
if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they
went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
I struggled for many years (when I was a student) trying
to understand Christianity, God, Jesus, Satan, Genesis, etc.
I =A0tried to come to grips with the basic doctrines, core beliefs and
ideas of Christianity, i.e., with the real essence of Christianity. I
tried to understand the various teachings and also the contradictions
in Old versus New Testament.
If your presupposition was that they contradicted one another,
then I must conclude that your searching for the Truth was
either a shallow one, a brief one, or one that had already self-
determined the end before being the quest. i.e dishonest
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
What was the truth? Why? What did it all mean?
Why all these stories? Why were 66 old Jewish books selected
from among the many and bundled into a Western bible?
39 "old Jewish books"
and 27 New ones, though it might
be debated as to whether or not Luke
was a Jews, a Greek proselyte of Judaism.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
Why and how did Christianity and Islam arise from Judaism?
This proves that your studies where not sincere nor
scholarly. Islam did not rise out of Judaism.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
Why did the Christian merciful and loving God require his son to die
for us at a cross,
Again, such a question can only reveal an outsiders
inquiry. Evidently you never studied or pondered "good vs
evil." You didn't give thought to the fact that He is a thrice
Holy God. You still haven't seen the analogy of your own
existence to that which is based in God's. You get upset
when some one cuts you off in traffic or indignant when the
ref makes a bad call that causes your team the game. Why?
Why can you get upset in a relativistic way but the infinite
God cannot require satisfaction for sin in an absolute way?
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
where did the fall in the Garden of Eden
come from and what was its meaning, who was Satan, where is heaven,
who or what is God, is there a soul, etc., etc.,
Ah, the question of the ages and the Long War Against
God. As Paul concluded, "It is ALL from Him, through Him
and to Him." Why did God allow sin to come into the world
of existence that He designed and called forth? For His own
good pleasure. That His creation might know Him and freely
honor Him. Back to Jude's doxology, "He who is able to keep
you from stumbling." "Able" is the same root word that Paul
uses in Rom 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of God
for it is the POWER unto salvation..." We get our word
dynamite from this Greek word. And quite naturally, one asks,
"Ya, I know He is able, but that is not the crux of the question
is it? Is He willing." And to answer that question all one has
to do is look at the cross. If He gave you His best, will He not
freely give you all the rest? "Willing?" Perhaps the greatest
understatement man is capable of.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
Questions and questions and always more questions.
But Christianity answers more questions than any other truth
system and leaves the believer with fewer *real* questions to
resolve. It is after all, a faith system as are all systems of
truth because man is finite. He can never produce any absolute,
or as Daniel Bell of Harvard once termed, a "transcendental
ethic." That is, man, apart from God, is left alone in his little
dingy floating in the vast, empty ocean of relativity.

I really feel that you have not honestly looked at both
sides of the coin.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
I also tried to understand the behavior of so-called Christian
nations, colonizing or wreaking havoc in non-Christian countries
(and now again conducting horrible neo-colonial bombing wars for
oil and gas on non-Christian darker-skinned peoples in Asia and
Africa =A0(Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Philippines, to name a few).
Sigh! You do not adequately appreciate the doctrine of depravity.
You have not bothered to look deep within yourself to realize that
even for the true believer, if He did not keep us from falling, we
would all fall away. Look at Jude or even its cousin, 2 Pet 2, where
the falling away of Israel, of Sodom & Gomorrah, even some
within the angelic realm, and lastly, within the Church itself where
false teacher covertly slide in and introduce their damnable
heresies -all apostatized. Left to themselves, all reason-able
creatures fall away. To grow to maturity as a human means that
we grow more independent of our parents and more self sufficient
for ourselves. But that is opposite of the spiritual reality where
maturity is where we become more and more dependent upon
His provision, His strength, His keeping, His guidance, His will
and design for holiness and thus happiness.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
I tried to understand the enslavement and killing of Africans, the
mass murder of native Indians, and the many horrible wars waged
by Christian Americans and Europeans on poor, often darker
skinned, people all over the world. And the World Wars started
by Christian nations in Europe.
Many things have been done in the name of religion or the god of
that religion. But ultimately it doesn't reflect God, but the
depravity
of man without God.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
Christianity was supposed to be a religion of peace, of turning
the other cheek, of loving your neighbor like yourself,
and it was very clear to me it was not, its philosophies did not
work, or did not enlighten its believers, or at least did not
seem to lead to a better and more humane world.
Perhaps you, like most, have not yet come to realize that depth
of the statement, "Many are called, but few are chosen." As I
have grown older and more pondersome of these very questions
that you raise, the more I have come to the hard realization that the
believing remnant is truly small. I attend a wonderful assembly of
believers now where the Scriptures are afforded their proper place.
But it's not perfect. If it had been perfect, as soon as I became
a member it ceased to be perfect because before God I KNOW that
I'm not perfect.

All this things you are bringing up are excuses, not reasons for
unbelief.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
I contemplated the Genesis creation story, with Adam and Eve
as the first human couple, Noah and the flood, the many prophets,
the Messiah, the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the resurrection,
revelations, and the many stories and prophecies in the Bible.
Then very slowly (over at least 5 years) I came to understand
and accept several truths described below. These truths enabled me to
gradually throw off the yoke, the blinders and the intellectual
shackles imposed by a long childhood indoctrination in Christianity.
And amazingly but steadily and happily (and also irreversibly)
I =A0 BECAME =A0 FREE =A0----- =A0FOREVER =A0----- !
That was still pretty dramatic, e.g., when I read Robinson's
Honest-to-God and followed his brave search for answers (a search
beyond the usual Christian dogmas and ideas) I cried
and shivered.
While reading his questions and ideas, he suddenly made me
realize it's both bold and brave to jettison anything that does not
make sense. He was trying to get there but in the end he did not
fully make it. He could not break through and become free.
In philosophy this has some relation to Cartesian doubt. It is
an impossible pursuit therefore merely a theory. Man, made in
the image of God cannot "jettison" certain things. Socrates
note that the unexamined life isn't one worth the living is not a
false statement, but absolutely true. But we are all different
and not all able to pursue that end to the same degree. Yet,
"to whom much has been given, much is expected" means that
if you have been gifted with the wherewithal to intellectually
ponder these things, then if you don't put forth the maximum
effort to resolve this conflict (2 Tim 2:14ff) then the greater
will be your condemnation or shrinking back when you are
finally called before Him.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
But he was the first one who made me see a glimmer of
light and hope in my own search: To think 'out of the (Christian)
box', and especially to no longer feel restricted by ancient 'holy'
books and ideas, to no longer feel obliged to take ideas and beliefs
"Has God truly said...."
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
"We can't explain it, but you have to 'believe', it's all true!"
"God has a plan for you, but we can't begin to understand it."
The consent of faith is by its very nature a "forced" consent. It
is not determined by volition but by the sheer evidence. The
consent of the will has no tendency toward evidence such as to
elevate supposition into belief. Augustine said somewhere that
we know what rests on reason but we believe what rests on
authority. Its not that faith is unreasonable, it's just that it is
not grounded or based upon it. Certainly an act of reason
underlies all faith while an activity of faith underlies all knowledge
(we, after all, are not omniscient). But in the final analysis, it
must be accepted that reason rests on an authority which is
beyond itself. So you see, belief is the primary condition of
reason not that reason is the ultimate basis for faith. Take some
time to chew on this and you will recognize that what I write is
as we act and live.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
Then my struggle completely changed from thinking solely about
what was written, translated, changed, edited, and embellished
in the Bible and trying to make sense out of THAT, to thinking about
what really made sense - to me.
This was followed later by thinking about Teilhard de Chardin's
fantastic and elaborate ideas of increasing complexity. As
Robinson he was searching for answers and came up very
ingeniously with divine forces driving towards increased complexity.
As Robinson he also did not quite make it, but in his thinking
he was jumping miles ahead of the ordinary Christian theologian.
The standard Christian answers were not working for him either.
So with endless creativity he developed grandiose and remarkable
new ideas as a substitute for the explanations by Christianity that
failed him.
That was later followed by Dobzhansky's books on evolution,
Bertrand Russell's courage, wisdom and ideas,
books on comparative religion, and others.
Not due to surrender, but due to liberation: Liberation from
irrationality, illogic and indoctrination in ancient religious
beliefs.
I understood ---- and (as happened with Galileo when he understood the
position of the earth and its path in the solar system) these insights
and thereby this freedom was really irreversible.
I understood that religion develops in any human tribe or culture,
and that different cultures will develop different religions. =A0And
with those insights the hold of mental slavery in the form of
Christianity (as well as the philosophies of life of related, similar
mono-theistic religions =A0=3D believing in one single all-powerful
God', i.e., Islam and Judaism) was broken - - =A0forever.
Wow! All of the above paragraphs take me back 30 years to
when I was a student of philosophy. Philosophy is the handmaiden
of theology, not vs. The scholastic realized this. To the degree
they moved away from the normative reading of scripture, to
that degree their seeking to resolve truth became a vain and
totally unsatisfying pursuit. Live long enough and you will
experience the same. Oh so many books I would ask you to
read. If you have read and actually studied Chardin (are you
coming out of the RC system of belief?), then you've had,
apparently, some formal training in the field of philosophy.
Personally, in my own walk & questioning, Van Til and his
student, Francis Schaeffer led me out of the woods of despair.
I came to realize that I could have my deep intellectual
pursuits and at the same time, have my biblical Christian
faith. They were/are not at odds. It point of fact, apart from
the biblical explanation, nothing really, in the final analysis, makes
sense. If you throw off the historic/grammatic reading of the
Genesis record, you cut off the feet of the whole body of
Biblical revelation. To do so is to utterly miss the depth of
meaning concerning the incomprehensibility of God and man's
place in that system. Read Os Guinness's old work titled,
"Dust of Death" wherein he surveys the various schools of
thought and reveals quite convincingly each of their inadequacies
and untruths.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
The mind broke free and I was now flying unencumbered.
No longer mentally stunted, no longer kept in intellectual captivity,
no longer bogged down in difficult struggles and confusion about
the hodgepodge of ideas provided by ancient 'holy' books and various
derived books.
1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
ideas and concepts that accompanied the development of
various cultures. These ideas evolved over generations and were
of course influenced by other religions, cultures and people
migrations.
You are quite right. All religions are man made. The problem is
that Christianity is not a religion. Religions, by their definition,
are
system which offer or provide avenue's where by men can seek to
obtain favor or merit with God. Biblical Christianity will have none
of this. It specifically spells out that men do not seek after God
except in a self-honoring way, therefore not truly seeking HIm.
Therefore it is up to God to seek us out, to regenerate us, to
enlighten us to the truth, to grant to us the favor of faith, and then
to keep us from falling. As I mentioned at the opening, "It is all
from Him, through HIm and to Him." If you don't understand this
basic tenant, then it is not Biblical Christianity that you are
rejecting,
but some self made religious idea that you have created for yourself.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
They were gradually accepted, adapted, embellished and written
down as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life, the (new)
gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact
No, if you are truly understanding of definitions, you would realize
that 1) it claims of itself to be a "theory," 2) that technically it
does
not even rise to that definition but rather is merely a model, 3) in
order to declare it a fact would mean that you would some how be
able to reproduce it. Finitude denies any absolute conclusion as
such. Evolution is as much a "religion" as anything out there. In
fact, it is probably the oldest of all religions because if you are
wise in biblical concepts, then you could perceive that when Satan
Lucifier came into existence, then seeing everything else coming
into existence, he reasoned that the Tri-une God Himself came
into existence prior to himself and therefore, he too could evolve
into "God." This is the whole underlying premise of Isa 14 Eze 28.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
and nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that =A0- per definition -
makes us immortal) suddenly inserted in a certain species and
at a discrete point in time by an external power/deity.
and without realizing it, though you want us to believe that you
are philosophically minded, you have ripped out beneath you
all basis for law, for community, for love, for personal meaning
and worth, etc. You are philosophically trained, no? Then you
should have considered the fruit of your thesis taken to its
natural end.
SNIP Obviously, way too much here to reply to in one sitting,
let alone in one reply.
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions
I personally met Carl. Did you ever have that "pleasure?" He
was an arrogant SOB. He belonged to that same community
which claims to entertain all possibilities but in fact, is in fact
part of a very closed "universe" of ideas. I know because I was
part of the scientific community at its zenith level of pursuit in
the field of high energy physics. They would let everyone and
their uncle come and lecture on this or that new idea, but have
a creationist vs evolutionist debate -ya right! I can personally
attest to real hostility for those who pursued and fought to have
open discussions. It got very mean and nasty. Violent in
some part. And this is who you claim to be your hero?
d***@aol.com
2009-05-21 02:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Sagan's billions
The intent of this post is not to preach or to convert but to let
other
searchers know how I struggled, overcame, outgrew and finally
had to reject Christianity.
Having been an atheist for many years I can sympathize, I could not
even conceive how such a being as God could exist. But there are a few
things to consider.

1. Some very intelligent people do believe in God. Religion in general
and Christianity in particular have some very wise and perceptive
adherents, if you think they are all just fools... well I doubt you
are being honest with yourself.

2. If only the physical world exists then reason is meaningless. There
is no rationality.

3. You cannot blame a philosophy for the behavior of some people who
claim to support it. Sure religion has been used as an excuse for
wars, however on only this point I tend to agree with Marx, all wars
are economic. How else do you explain people of different faiths
living side by side for centuries suddenly turning on one another in
the name of religion.

4. You have conveniently ignored the vast amount of good that is due
to Christian ideals, the end of slavery, recognition of "God given"
rights beyond the control of the state, aspiration of equality (before
the law and before God) {not perfectly realized I grant.} Most of the
societal values you laud are only prevelent in countries where
Christianity has a major influence.
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