Discussion:
Female Subordination and Biblical Communism
(too old to reply)
norak
2007-09-21 02:37:45 UTC
Permalink
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule. It is the man who makes the decisions. When I asked the pastor
why this was so he pointed to the bible, which says that the woman
should not speak against the man. Just as the church submits to Christ
so too the woman submits to the man. The pastor then told me that the
reason why the man must rule is because if the female has equal power
then there would be chaos. If any group of humans wish to behave well
then someone must be in charge. Wouldn't this then mean that Communism
is a superior political system to democracy? Democracy in the
household means everyone has a say in how the house is run, including
the woman. Communism implies centralized control by the man.
Therefore, is communism supported by biblical teaching?
Helmut Richter
2007-09-24 04:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by norak
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule.
This is somewhat imprecise. The main proof text quoted is Eph.5:22-33 which
explains what each of the two has to bring and not what each should exact
from the partner. So, the man is not to rule but his wife is to submit to
him; the woman is not to demand her husband's love but he is to love her.
"Love" in this context is defined as "just as Christ loved the church and
gave himself up for her". *If* a man loves his wife in exactly *this* way,
any kind of dictatorship over his wife is certainly impossible.
Post by norak
It is the man who makes the decisions.
In quite some marriages, it would be a great progress if the man would
indeed make the decisions and stand by them instead of blaming his wife for
everything that has gone wrong. Making decisions is a problem only when it
is meant that the man does not carefully listen to his wife and then act
according to the utmost love and respect of her. Again, the paragon is
Christ loving and ruling the Church, which is by no means by making
arbitrary decisions in a dictatorial way.
Post by norak
When I asked the pastor
why this was so he pointed to the bible, which says that the woman
should not speak against the man. Just as the church submits to Christ
so too the woman submits to the man.
Yes, and as I quoted Paul already: Just as Christ gave up his life for the
Church, so too the man gives up his life for his wife.

Ruling without giving up one's life is not Christ-like.
Post by norak
Wouldn't this then mean that Communism
is a superior political system to democracy? Democracy in the
household means everyone has a say in how the house is run, including
the woman. Communism implies centralized control by the man.
Therefore, is communism supported by biblical teaching?
Equating "Communism" with dictatorship is somewhat bizarre, given the
majority of dictatorships that are not at all Communistic. And on
dictatorship, I have already commented.
--
Helmut Richter
B.G. Kent
2007-09-25 02:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Richter
Equating "Communism" with dictatorship is somewhat bizarre, given the
majority of dictatorships that are not at all Communistic. And on
dictatorship, I have already commented.
B - People have never seen REAL communism at work yet. What we have seen
is communistic dictatorships.

Bren
**Rowland Croucher**
2007-09-24 04:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by norak
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule. It is the man who makes the decisions. When I asked the pastor
why this was so he pointed to the bible, which says that the woman
should not speak against the man. Just as the church submits to Christ
so too the woman submits to the man. The pastor then told me that the
reason why the man must rule is because if the female has equal power
then there would be chaos. If any group of humans wish to behave well
then someone must be in charge. <>
First, see http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/8195.htm

And ask 'If God wants to appoint Deborah as leader of the nation,
because Barak is not leadership-material, how can God do that if there's
a universal principle involved?' (I'm glad God is not a legalist).

--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)

Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/

Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
B.G. Kent
2007-09-25 02:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by norak
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule. It is the man who makes the decisions. When I asked the pastor
why this was so he pointed to the bible, which says that the woman
should not speak against the man. Just as the church submits to Christ
so too the woman submits to the man. The pastor then told me that the
reason why the man must rule is because if the female has equal power
then there would be chaos. If any group of humans wish to behave well
then someone must be in charge. <>
B - The Church and the Bible is not God. I believe that men wanted women
to be subjecated and wrote it into the Bible to support their beliefs.

Bren
l***@hotmail.com
2007-09-27 02:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
B - The Church and the Bible is not God. I believe that men wanted women
to be subjecated and wrote it into the Bible to support their beliefs.
The you are truly not a follower of Christ for Christ verified the
authority of
the Scriptures. In point of fact, He came to fulfill them.

What you illustrate is what is expressed in the curse of the woman in
the
garden as "having desire for your husband." That word "desire"
implies
that she will always have somewhere in her fallen nature the desire to
usurp his office as leader. So on both counts you fail in your
understanding
and your presumption.
B.G. Kent
2007-09-28 02:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by B.G. Kent
B - The Church and the Bible is not God. I believe that men wanted women
to be subjecated and wrote it into the Bible to support their beliefs.
The you are truly not a follower of Christ for Christ verified the
B - No I follow Christ. No...Christ was SAID to have verified the
"word"...that does not mean that he took the Old Testament literally
or for that matter actually did this.



Again you confuse a book and those that wrote and collated it with Christ.
Bren
shegeek72
2007-09-24 04:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by norak
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule. It is the man who makes the decisions.
[snip]

Subordination of women, as well as slavery, can be found throughout
the Bible. Indeed, some churches used biblical approval of slavery to
condone it. During biblical times women were considered "property." So
it's not surprising that the Bible, written by men, would be
patriarchal. Your pastor in misinformed.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarasresources.net

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org

---

[I'm not qualified to comment on the OT views, but this is an unfair
characterization of the NT. Paul teaches some subordiation, but also
that in Christ there is no male or female. And he also indicates that
man should submit to the woman. Jesus is unusual for the time in
having female disciples. The NT is not quite the way modern feminists
would like it, but it is far from seeing women as property. --clh]
Matthew Johnson
2007-09-25 02:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by norak
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule. It is the man who makes the decisions.
[snip]
Subordination of women, as well as slavery, can be found throughout
the Bible. Indeed, some churches used biblical approval of slavery to
condone it. During biblical times women were considered "property." So
it's not surprising that the Bible, written by men, would be
patriarchal. Your pastor in misinformed.
He may be 'misinformed', but not as badly misinformed as you are. Where do you
get this idea that "some churches used biblical approval of slavery to
condone it."? No church has done that for over a century now.

So no, it is you who is 'misinformed', and that seriously -- as the Moderator
has already pointed out correcting your one-sided presentation of the NT
teaching.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Helmut Richter
2007-09-25 02:23:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
During biblical times women were considered "property."
Often heard, never with any evidence. Any slightest hint to that?

As some hints to the contrary, consider some OT examples:

- When the men had agreed about Rebekah's marriage, it went without saying
that the ultimate decision is upon herself (Gen.24:57). Eliezer had
already reckoned with the possibility that she might refuse (V.39). This
is more typical for dealing with individuals than with property.

- The writer of the history of judges finds nothing remarkable about a
woman reigning Israel (Judg.4:4).

- Ruth and her mother-in-law pursued their interests themselves.

- The two lovers in the Song of Songs display no difference in their
interest, initiative, and influence on how they shape their erotic
relationship.

- A female manager of a commercial enterprise is portrayed in Prov.31
("She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a
vineyard. ... She sees that her trading is profitable.").

It was a very patriarchal society - but not all prejudices we have today
about patriarchal societies are true as well. I have yet to see hard
evidence for such statements as yours.
--
Helmut Richter
shegeek72
2007-09-26 02:47:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
He may be 'misinformed', but not as badly misinformed as you are. Where do you
get this idea that "some churches used biblical approval of slavery to
condone it."? No church has done that for over a century now.
I said "used," as in past tense. You're so drawing for straws that you
have to misstate what I wrote. Pathetic.
Post by Matthew Johnson
So no, it is you who is 'misinformed', and that seriously -- as the Moderator
has already pointed out correcting your one-sided presentation of the NT
teaching.
Then why doesn't the NT include women, as well as men, as followers of
Christ?

As for being "misinformed," I'm learning more all the time, which is
further substantiating that anyone who believes the homosexuality in
the Bible refers to the loving, longterm, monogamous relationships of
today is sorely misinformed.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarasresources.net

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org

---

[It does. Jesus had key female disciples such as Mary Magdalene, and
Mary the mother of James and Joseph. They both followed Jesus and
provided support (presumably monetary) for him. They stayed with
him for the crucifixion and resurrection, which is more than we can
say for the men. Jesus' mother, and Mary the mother of John, were
both leaders of the Church in Acts. Paul acknowledges several women
as leaders of the Church. --clh]
l***@hotmail.com
2007-09-27 02:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Subordination of women, as well as slavery, can be found throughout
the Bible. Indeed, some churches used biblical approval of slavery to
condone it. During biblical times women were considered "property." So
it's not surprising that the Bible, written by men, would be
patriarchal. Your pastor in misinformed.
--
No it is you who fails in both appreciating the authority of Scripture
and its interpretation. But anyone who has been at SRC for more than a
week already expects that out of you. You only hold to what you are
willing to believe. Your's is a designer religion and bears no
relationship with reality.
Post by shegeek72
[I'm not qualified to comment on the OT views, but this is an unfair
characterization of the NT. Paul teaches some subordiation, but also
that in Christ there is no male or female.
But the context is only concerning salvation.
Post by shegeek72
And he also indicates that
man should submit to the woman. Jesus is unusual for the time in
having female disciples.
Your liberal slip is showing CH. They weren't "disciples." A little
Jewish study would clear that misunderstanding. Telmedim or
"disciples" never left their rabbis side. Christ was unusual in that
He chose His Telmede rather than the customary routine where around
the age 12, after having memorized the books of Moses, a young man
would follow a rabbi around to see if that particular rabbi would
accept his petition to become a telmede or whether that particular
rabbis teaching style was what he was pursuing. Usually after about 6
mo. the young man would approach the rabbi and then petition him for
acceptance as a telmede. A rabbi would then question him concerning
the completeness of his memorization of the scriptures and if that
prove sufficient would then question him in regards to what the rabbi
had taught in the past to see if he had been listening or had the
wherewithal to comprehend him.

There are no women in scripture that meet this paradigm. Only the
twelve. You of course are using the common understanding of the term
and not the strict understanding which, again, only the 12 male
disciples fulfilled.
Post by shegeek72
The NT is not quite the way modern feminists
would like it, but it is far from seeing women as property. --clh]
And that is based upon the freedom / form dynamic which only
Biblical Christianity ever taught. There must be a proper form
for proper freedom to be exercised and enjoyed. God has revealed
in His word that He made them male and female. He didn't make
two males and then a female or transgender one of the males into
a female, He made them different. To discount this fact is to place
God under your heal. He is patient and longsuffering but the time
will come when such attitudes and actions will meet their Maker.

----

[No. Jesus' liberal slip is showing.

You say only the Twelve qualified under Jewish criteria as disciples.
I deny both the statement and its relevance.

Acts 1:21 makes it clear that there were others who met the same
criteria as the Twelve.

I doubt that Jesus used the criteria you mention. Jesus did not follow
rabbinic tradition in everything. As is well known, some he explicitly
rejected. There is no sign that he tested the Twelve in the way you
suggest. Indeed I think there are signs that the Twelve wouldn't have
passed. Unlike the process you describe, he called them. And I think
he called them not because of what they were, but what with his help
they could become.

Furthermore, the NT makes a distinction between the Twelve and the
term "disciple." See Luke 6:12. Mat 27:57 uses the term of Joseph of
Arimathea, who probably hadn't been with Jesus throughout his
ministry. In Luke 17:3, Jesus uses the term in a way that clearly
means any follower.

Note that I didn't say there were any women among the Twelve. But I'd
say the women of Mark 15:40 are disciples in a fairly strong sense.
They were with him both in Galilee and when he went to Jerusalem. And
of course Acts 9:36 refers to a woman as a disciple.

--clh]
Matthew Johnson
2007-09-27 02:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
He may be 'misinformed', but not as badly misinformed as you
are. Where do you get this idea that "some churches used biblical
approval of slavery to condone it."? No church has done that for
over a century now.
I said "used," as in past tense. You're so drawing for straws that
you have to misstate what I wrote. Pathetic.
No, it is you who is "drawing for[sic] straws". For I did not
"misstate what you wrote". Read it again. i quoted your exact words.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
So no, it is you who is 'misinformed', and that seriously -- as the
Moderator has already pointed out correcting your one-sided
presentation of the NT teaching.
Then why doesn't the NT include women, as well as men, as followers of
Christ?
What are you talking about? Of course it does, just as the Moderator
points out below.
Post by shegeek72
As for being "misinformed," I'm learning more all the time, which is
further substantiating that anyone who believes the homosexuality in
the Bible refers to the loving, longterm, monogamous relationships of
today is sorely misinformed.
Anything that 'substantiates' that false conclusion is not
'learning'. It id diabolical deception. But alas, such deception is
all you want to learn.

If you were really learning, you would have learned to stop posting
such total nonsense as this last post of yours. But you keep on making
the same mistake over and over. This is a _classic_ example of someone
who refuses to learn from his/er own mistakes.
Post by shegeek72
[It does. Jesus had key female disciples such as Mary Magdalene, and
Mary the mother of James and Joseph. They both followed Jesus and
provided support (presumably monetary) for him. They stayed with
him for the crucifixion and resurrection, which is more than we can
say for the men. Jesus' mother, and Mary the mother of John, were
both leaders of the Church in Acts. Paul acknowledges several women
as leaders of the Church. --clh]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
l***@hotmail.com
2007-09-28 02:38:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
[No. Jesus' liberal slip is showing.
You say only the Twelve qualified under Jewish criteria as disciples.
I deny both the statement and its relevance.
Acts 1:21
Luke 6:12. Mat 27:57 Luke 17:3, Mark 15:40
Acts 9:36 refers to a woman as a disciple.
Had this all answered and hit the discard instead of the send button.
Haven't got time to do it all over right now. Look up didaskeiv in
the TDNT and read the entire section.
B.G. Kent
2007-09-28 02:38:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
Subordination of women, as well as slavery, can be found throughout
the Bible. Indeed, some churches used biblical approval of slavery to
condone it. During biblical times women were considered "property." So
it's not surprising that the Bible, written by men, would be
patriarchal. Your pastor in misinformed.
--
There are no women in scripture that meet this paradigm. Only the
twelve. You of course are using the common understanding of the term
and not the strict understanding which, again, only the 12 male
disciples fulfilled.
B - No..just the Magdelene who was a Mary and his wife.


In my opinion.

Bren
h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
2007-09-28 03:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Acts 9:36 refers to a woman as a disciple.
Had this all answered and hit the discard instead of the send button.
Haven't got time to do it all over right now. Look up didaskeiv in
the TDNT and read the entire section.
TDNT notes some similarity between Jesus' disciples and those of the
rabbis, but concludes Jesus is Lord, not rabbi, and the commitment for
a disciple is a commitment to his person as Lord, and obedience to
him.

In talking about Act 9:36 they note two possibilities, one that she is
one of the disciples, and the other that she is a Christian. They
believe that in Acts, disciple is used for all Christians. One
possibility is that Acts 9:36 is calling the woman a disciple in the
same sense as others in Acts. But Christians are people with faith in
Christ as Lord, committed to obedience to him. So I think this is a
distinction without a difference.
Matthew Johnson
2007-10-01 23:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
Subordination of women, as well as slavery, can be found throughout
the Bible. Indeed, some churches used biblical approval of slavery to
condone it. During biblical times women were considered "property." So
it's not surprising that the Bible, written by men, would be
patriarchal. Your pastor in misinformed.
--
There are no women in scripture that meet this paradigm. Only the
twelve. You of course are using the common understanding of the term
and not the strict understanding which, again, only the 12 male
disciples fulfilled.
B - No..just the Magdelene who was a Mary and his wife.
How typical of your presumption, Bren. She was a disciple, NOT his wife. He had
no wife. That would have been quite inconsistent with his mission on Earth,
since He was to die and ascend to Heaven at such a young age.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
l***@hotmail.com
2007-10-01 23:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Acts 9:36 refers to a woman as a disciple.
Had this all answered and hit the discard instead of the send button.
Haven't got time to do it all over right now. Look up didaskeiv in
the TDNT and read the entire section.
TDNT notes some similarity between Jesus' disciples and those of the
rabbis, but concludes Jesus is Lord, not rabbi, and the commitment for
a disciple is a commitment to his person as Lord, and obedience to
him.
Very good. Yes, He taught from an authoritative that no one else
had or could. But that does not dismiss the fact that He still
followed
the custom of rabbi/telmedim. The scriptural note that He celibrated
the passover meal at the age of 12 and that He began His ministry
with the baptism and laying on of hands by John and the witness
of the Father at the age of 30 all follow the tradition of rabbi. And
though rabbis through the years have been forlorn to admit, those
who have objectively studied the gospel accounts declare that
Jesus was a very special rabbi, of a sort that little more than a
dozen have ever by so noted, that being a rabbi "with authority."
A very special requirement of having memorized then entire
Jewish scriptures and having two rabbis "with authority" recognizing
the fact and laying their hands on him and declaring it. John
and the Father are just such witnesses.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
In talking about Act 9:36 they note two possibilities, one that she is
one of the disciples, and the other that she is a Christian.
The Acts 9 account parallels Paul's doctrinial teachings on deacon-
eses. In fact the verse actually notes her service which compared
to 1st & 2 Tim is exactly what Paul taught.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
They
believe that in Acts, disciple is used for all Christians.
I don't. I view it from the Jewish perspective which transitioned
into
the Church elder/deacon roles.
Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
One
possibility is that Acts 9:36 is calling the woman a disciple in the
same sense as others in Acts. But Christians are people with faith in
Christ as Lord, committed to obedience to him. So I think this is a
distinction without a difference.
This still does not meet the distinction of "talmede." (I can't
type this word as it should be transcribe. It is actually
"talmid" with a carrot over the "i". I spelled it as it sounds).

If you have access to a "Theological Wordbook of the OT", on
p. 480 under 1116, second column, you'll find it explained. A
talmede is a "scholar", a Rabbi and his students are termed
talmidim (carrots over each "i") or apprentices. Israel was
also considered collectively as talmidim, "apprenticed to
the torah of God. The Jewish Talmud gets its name from this
root." Talmidim is only of the 24 divisions of priests, a
"teacher of the law" being a rabbi specialized in the first five
books whereas a rabbi "with authority" was that an much
much more. Gamaliel (Acts 5:34-40) was one who was
regarded as a rabbi "with authority" and Paul "was brought
up...at the feet of Gamaliel" (Acts 22:3). This is a Jewish
idiom referring to the closeness of the student to his
teacher. "How much dust do you have on you" refers
to following close to the rabbi, so close that the dust
that his sandal kicked up landed upon the disciple closest
to the rabbi. John's leaning on the breast of Christ also
illustrates this.

The broadest meaning of disciple in relation to Jesus
comes from those instances where the term may be
used of the multitudes who followed Him. For example,
in Mt 5:1 it is unclear whether the multitude is identified
synonymously with the disciples or the disciples are a
smaller group within the multitude. Likewise, in Lk 6:13
Jesus chooses the 12 disciples from a larger group of
"followers" also called disciples. In these settings Jesus
is teaching and the multitude is willing to be taught, and
thus in the general sense they could be called disciples
(Mt 5:2ff.; Lk 6:20ff.).

John 6 contributes an important truth about disciples.
While the chapter begins with a distinction between the
multitude and the disciples (cf. vv 2-3, 11, 22), we later
learn that among the group of disciples are unbelievers.
After Jesus' Bread of Life discourse, John tells us that
"many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, 'This
is a hard saying: Who can understand it?'" (v 60). In His
answer to them Jesus said, "But there are some of you
who do not believe," which John indicates included Judas
Iscariot, who would betray Jesus later (v 64). When the
text notes that "from that time many of His disciples went
back and walked with Him no more" (v 65), we are led to
assume these unbelievers are a large part of the departing
group. However, at least one unbeliever, Judas Iscariot,
remains with the twelve disciples (v 67).

This interchange with Jesus in John 6 shows that the
term "disciple" in its broadest sense can even refer to
unbelievers so obviously it could include women. But
the stricter meaning of the term, one that is noted in
the chosing of a replacement of Judas, will not allow
such a conclusion. Not a few scholars equate the
stricter meaning with "apostle." They were chosen
in the same sense that a rabbi would select who he
would teach and who he wouldn't.

This brings me to my final point and that is that the
12 were 12 young men who had not made the grade
and been accepted by a rabbi for apprenticeship. This
is why when called, they followed Jesus so readily. The
talmid and talmidim relationship was part of the senerio.
Peter was the only disciple that was of "age" and that
is proven by the fact that only he and Jesus had to
pay the temple tax derived from the fishes mouth. This
would have made them 21 or older. The other disciples
were all teenagers!!!
B.G. Kent
2007-09-24 04:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by norak
the woman. Communism implies centralized control by the man.
Therefore, is communism supported by biblical teaching?
B - LOL..perfect. The subjucation of women has really nothing to do with
God or Jesus...it's all about men in power being afraid of nature and
women birthing children is a sign that we have sex and this was looked
down upon despite many of the church fathers having mistresses etc. It's
really a sick repressive fear of our instinctual selves that causes men to
want to subjucate women.
A consensus of equals always works better than one leader.

In my opinion.
Bren
Matthew Johnson
2007-09-26 02:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by norak
the woman. Communism implies centralized control by the man.
Therefore, is communism supported by biblical teaching?
B - LOL..perfect. The subjucation of women has really nothing to do
with God or Jesus...it's all about men in power being afraid of
nature and women birthing children is a sign that we have sex
As so often with you, Bren, this claim is absurd. The 'fear'or
"looking down on sex" you prate about is entirely the product of your
own imagination. You don't understand why they teach what they do, so
you make up explanations of your own, explanations that have nothing
to do with reality and everything to do with your own denial of
reality.

The reality you are hiding from is that they had a _reason_ for what
_you_ falsely label "fear of nature and looking down on sex". It is a
_good_ reason. It is because they understood Genesis 1-4 better than
you do: they realized that the mission of Man (first Adam, then Christ
after Adam failed) is to unify the divisions of nature, without
destroying the distinctions, much as Christ unifies the human and
divine natures in himself without confusion or division. And to unify
male and female in this manner can only be done by chastity, whether
the "relative chastity" of marriage, in which husband and wife enjoy
each other, or the radical, absolute chastity of monasticism, which is
closer to the chastity of Christ Himself.

Besides: if you have never heard a woman say the same thing (about
chastity), it is because you have all your life listened only to the
wrong women.
Post by B.G. Kent
and this was looked down upon despite many of the church fathers
having mistresses etc.
And this is another classic example of your denial of reality. No, it
is simply not true that "many of the church fathers had
mistresses". Among Church _Fathers_ only Augustine did (it is doubtful
we can consider Theodore of Mopseustia a "Church Father"), and
obviously he gave that up and repented of it before he was
baptized. Baptism, in case you didn't know, wipes away all sins.
Post by B.G. Kent
It's really a sick repressive fear of our instinctual selves that
causes men to want to subjucate women.
The "sick repressive fear" is in _you_ Bren, motivating your gross
slander against the Church Fathers, whom you fear and hate. How
Christlike of you!
Post by B.G. Kent
A consensus of equals always works better than one leader.
No, it does not. Consensus fails often also. Look at the consensus of
the German voters of 1932 chose. Or US voters of 2004;)
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2007-09-24 04:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by norak
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule. It is the man who makes the decisions. When I asked the pastor
why this was so he pointed to the bible, which says that the woman
should not speak against the man. Just as the church submits to Christ
so too the woman submits to the man. The pastor then told me that the
reason why the man must rule is because if the female has equal power
then there would be chaos.
The Bible does not say that there would be chaos. That is his own guess
explaining the Biblical rule.
Post by norak
If any group of humans wish to behave well
then someone must be in charge. Wouldn't this then mean that Communism
is a superior political system to democracy?
No, it would not. For in every real democracy, some kind of political hierarchy
evolves, even in Athens in their Golden Age.
Post by norak
Democracy in the
household means everyone has a say in how the house is run, including
the woman.
Surely it must imply more than that. Besides: even if "the man makes the
decisions", that does not mean that no one else has a say, it only means that
the man has the _last_ word.

So your definition of "democracy in the household" leaves much to be desired.
Post by norak
Communism implies centralized control by the man.
?? What do you think the definition of _Communism_ is? It sounds to me like you
have confused it with state socialism. But according to all Marxism, Leninism
and Stalinism, state socialism was only a temporary stage on the way to building
Communism.
Post by norak
Therefore, is communism supported by biblical teaching?
Of course not.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
l***@hotmail.com
2007-09-27 02:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by norak
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule. It is the man who makes the decisions. When I asked the pastor
why this was so he pointed to the bible, which says that the woman
should not speak against the man.
I think most people have wrong presuppositions concerning this.

First off, it is the **office** of the wife that is below that of the
man in his role as head of the household. However, the woman
is equal in dignity and respect. A wise husband seeks his wife's
counsel and considers it when making decisions. It is not a matter
of a master/slave relationship, but it is a matter of reflecting upon
the Father/Son releationship. Christ submitted Himself to the
will of the Father. Now was He any less Divine than the Father
or less wise? No. But His office was.

Second, have you never read, "He who is first shall be last and
he who is last will be first." Now apply that to our discussion!!!
t***@acenet.net.au
2007-10-01 23:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by norak
I was told in a sermon that in a Christian household the man is to
rule. It is the man who makes the decisions. When I asked the pastor
why this was so he pointed to the bible, which says that the woman
should not speak against the man. Just as the church submits to Christ
so too the woman submits to the man. The pastor then told me that the
reason why the man must rule is because if the female has equal power
then there would be chaos. If any group of humans wish to behave well
then someone must be in charge. Wouldn't this then mean that Communism
is a superior political system to democracy? Democracy in the
household means everyone has a say in how the house is run, including
the woman. Communism implies centralized control by the man.
Therefore, is communism supported by biblical teaching?
Getting off the topic a bit, my first pastor (a Methodist moon-
lighting as a Presbyterian) was in most respects the wisest man I've
met. I've gone Catholic since, which is something he predicted years
ahead of the event, at a time when I wasn't even thinking about it.

He was a conservative in most things, and despised the communist
record in human rights. I'm pretty sure he was a member of what we
call the National Party in Australia (a conservative party which
supports the rights of graziers, pastoralists, farmers and so on). He
told me that he and another pastor once wrote the National Party
policy on social service, a document which stood for years in their
policy.

But I also remember him saying to me that he thought communism was
God's idea, but the devil got hold of it first through the militant
Bolsheviks.

He quoted one line ... "From every man according to ability: to every
man according to need". Then he commented "it has an almost Biblical
ring to it". So what I had was a conservative pastor commenting to me
that he thought Communism was God's idea. Or if you like, there's
enough to go around for everyone's need, but not everyone's greed.

Personally I think he was right - I think Communism was God's idea,
but the devil got hold of it first, and implemented his version of
it. So now it is thoroughly discredited, and you'd never get the
church to support it, due to the intense suffering the communists
inflicted on Christians, amongst others.

This is where I disagree with those who say God can never be
frustrated. I think He can, in the sense that He knows what He wants
for us, and it is good. But He has to take the risk that we will
misuse His plans, and moreover He has allowed the devil the
opportunity to manipulate our wills. I am sure He is often frustrated
in individual human lives, as He sees the lives of individuals, for
whom He had plans, wrecked either by their own actions, or the actions
of others, or both.
l***@hotmail.com
2007-10-03 23:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@acenet.net.au
But I also remember him saying to me that he thought communism was
God's idea,
did he say communism or socialism? Private property was accounted for
in OT law. Even in the NT, no one was forced or made to feel
unspiritual
for not selling all their goods for a sociological distribution.
Private property
is also divinely provided as in Job and Jacob, etc.
t***@acenet.net.au
2007-10-07 22:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by t***@acenet.net.au
But I also remember him saying to me that he thought communism was
God's idea,
did he say communism or socialism? Private property was accounted for
in OT law. Even in the NT, no one was forced or made to feel
unspiritual
for not selling all their goods for a sociological distribution.
Private property
is also divinely provided as in Job and Jacob, etc.
He used the term communism during the discussion. Like Christianity it
also originated with a Jew (Karl Marx) (Islam also originated with a
part Jew - ie. the three most influential movements of history and
modern history all had Jewish or part Jewish origins). And the fact
is of course that none of us really own anything.

CS Lewis used old Screwtape to make that clear ...."The humans are
always putting up claims to ownership that sound equally funny in
Heaven and in Hell and we must keep them doing so. ...

We produce this sense of ownership not only by pride but by
confusion. We teach them not to notice the different senses of the
possessive pronoun - the finely graded differences that run from "my
boots" through "my dog", "my servant", 'my wife", "my father", "my
master" and "my country", to "my God". They can be taught to reduce
all these senses to that of "my boots", the "my" of ownership. Even
in the nursery a child can be taught to mean by "my Teddy-bear" not
the old imagined recipient of affection to whom it stands in a special
relation (for that is what the Enemy will teach them to mean if we are
not careful); but "the bear I can pull to pieces if I like". And at
the other end of the scale, we have taught men to say "My God" in a
sense not really very different from "My boots", meaning "The God on
whom I have a claim for my distinguished services and whom I exploit
from the pulpit - the God I have done a corner in".

And all the time the joke is that the word "Mine" in its fully
possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything.
In the long run Our Father or the Enemy will say "Mine" of each thing
that exists, and specially of each man."

(End of quote)

To use a current example - there's a bit of kerfuffle about Princess
Diana and Dodi at the moment - were they murdered etc? (Personally I
think they were being driven by an intoxicated driver who was driving
well over the speed limit, while trying to avoid papparazzi, and like
a lot of other people who drive well over the speed limit while
intoxicated had a fatal accident). However they were both wealthy.
My own feeling is that both of them have now known for ten years whom
they really belonged to. And neither of them owns anything - it all
disappeared instantly a decade ago as far as they were concerned.

The main practical benefit of what might be called "legal
ownership" (and that's what it is - legal recognition by societies
that somebody 'owns' something) is that people look after things
better when they can lay some claim to ownership. For example, a lot
of people rent houses and look after them tolerably well - but if they
can claim some sort of ownership, they usually look after them better
and improve them more.

But we lose the lot the day we die, no matter who we are.

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