question

[B.G. Kent]

there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.

One lives by the Bible and does the same.



Who goes to Heaven?

[* irenic *]

Post by B.G. Kent
there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.
One lives by the Bible and does the same.
Who goes to Heaven?

Depends who you ask...

Strict Christian fundamentalist/Calvinists - 'only the Christian'. 'And in
any case it's faith not works that count'.

Me? My hunch is 'both', though I'm happy for the God Jesus introduced us to,
to work it out, which God can probably do without the help of anyone on scr.
I'm strictly not a Universalist, but I wouldn't be surprised if God is :-)

For conservatives, that raises some other questions, the most common being
'Why then preach to anyone about the Christian Good News?' Well, why is the
Good News so inexgtricably linked to the after-life in many Christians'
thinking. Read Acts again...
--
Shalom! Rowland Croucher

"If only it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere
insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary to separate them
from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil
cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy
a piece of his own heart?" Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ - 17,400 articles; 4000 jokes/funnies

[Andrew]

Post by B.G. Kent
there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.
One lives by the Bible and does the same.
Who goes to Heaven?

"In every nation whoever fears Him and works
righteousness, is accepted by Him." Acts 10:35

[Jeff Caird]

Post by B.G. Kent
there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.
One lives by the Bible and does the same.
Who goes to Heaven?

The one who never masturbates. Ooops.

never mind

[suneejan]

Being kind and treating people well does not get a person to heaven.
God does NOT care what religion a person is with. What God cares about
is a person's relationship with HIS son Jesus. Everyone is a sinner
Romans 3:23. The wages of sin is death ,but the gift of God is eternal
life in Christ Jesus our Lord...Romans 6:23 John 3:16 states that if a
person believes in HIM should not perish. To believe in Jesus means to
know that he is God's son and to trust and follow him with all of one's
heart , soul, and mind. Revalations 3:20 ..."Behold. I stand at the
door and knock, If anyone hears MY voice and opens the door, I will
come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
God forgive us of our sins thru what Jesus did forus on the cross.
1John 1:9
Eternal life is a gift from God thru his son Jesus. When presented with
a gift a person needs to recieve it. this is doneby saying a prayer
with sincerety from the heart,something like this...Lord I know and
believe that Jesus is your son who died for me when HE died on the
cross. Please forgive me of my sins and come in my life. Thankyou.
Amen. Read 1 john 5:11-13 for assurance of eternal life.
SuneeJan

Post by B.G. Kent
there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.
One lives by the Bible and does the same.
Who goes to Heaven?

[e***@hotmail.com]

Post by B.G. Kent
there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.
One lives by the Bible and does the same.
Who goes to Heaven?

Both. They both honor the same God (the Father), and they are both
following the same "prime directive" of "love your neighbor as
yourself". When they die and are held accountable for their actions on
earth, they both can proudly claim the same accomplishments.

Enuf

[qquito]

1.) Fundamentalist Christian Answer: The one who lives by the Bible;
2.) Fundamentalist Muslim Answer: The one who lives by the Koran;
3.) Liberalized Christian Answer: Both will go to Heaven;
4.) Liberalized Muslim Answer: Both will go to Heaven;
5.) Scientific Answer: No one. Because there is neither Heaven nor
Hell.

......
Who goes to Heaven?

[* irenic *]

Post by B.G. Kent
there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.
One lives by the Bible and does the same.
Who goes to Heaven?

I'd like to suggest an answer that isn't entirely standard. The
traditional Christian answer is "outside the Church there is no
salvation." Currently conservative Protestants generally say that
faith in Christ is required. Catholics now say that there may be
people who are in the Church without being visibly Christian.

There's an underlying assumption in many of these discussions that
God has a arbitrary standard you have to meet, after which he'll
let you into heaven. The question is what the standard is.

I'm not so sure. Heaven is by its nature communion with God. While I
don't accept some of the more legalistic concepts of purgatory, what
happens after death seems to include confronting our sins and being
cleansed. See e.g. 1 Cor 3:13.

Faith is not just a belief that you can change at will, and God's
demand for it isn't like requiring that you make a certain grade on a
test. Faith is a way of living, which sets you on a path that results
in changes in your character. Similarly, rejecting faith is a way of
life that results in changes in character. Salvation is a renewal of
our person, based on a union with Christ. Those who reject the union
with Christ by definition reject salvation.

Sometimes you'll hear non-Christians say "I don't find the evidence
for God convincing. But if after death it turns out that there is
really a God, it would be unjust for him to throw me into hell just
because I wasn't convinced when I was alive." It is possible that
there are non-Christians for whom this is actually true. They may
indeed end up with God. But I think in general faith is not just
something you can turn on and off. It's part of what you are. I doubt
that most non-Christians will find it attractive to be judged by God
and live in communion with him. As time goes on, they will have become
more and more hardened against God, just as Christians become closer
and closer to him.

I also doubt that God actually tortures people. Rather, I envision
hell as kind of a refuse pit for those who refuse to become fully
human as God intended. This is consistent with the Biblical images of
hell as destruction (and the term Gehenna).

So I don't categorically reject the idea of non-Christians ending up
in heaven. Some may have a relationship with Christ without
recognizing that it is Christ. Or God may in some way be at work in
them. But I think many non-Christians will not be able to accept
salvation.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by qquito
1.) Fundamentalist Christian Answer: The one who lives by the Bible;
2.) Fundamentalist Muslim Answer: The one who lives by the Koran;
3.) Liberalized Christian Answer: Both will go to Heaven;
4.) Liberalized Muslim Answer: Both will go to Heaven;
5.) Scientific Answer: No one. Because there is neither Heaven nor
Hell.

......
Who goes to Heaven?

Scientific answer? no...I believe that as they delve into quantum physics
even the most arrogant of scientist knows that he can never say never and
does not know it all yet. Albert Einstein said "scatch science deep enough
and you will find God" and he was a scientist of maths and physics. I've
seen Scientists and athiests be as arrogant and fundamentalist as any
bigoted person of faith....and this is sad.

I.M.O
Blessings
Bren

[B.G. Kent]

Post by suneejan
Being kind and treating people well does not get a person to heaven.
God does NOT care what religion a person is with. What God cares about
is a person's relationship with HIS son Jesus.

B - once again Suneejan you respond for all when you should be couching
your answer in "I believe" or "I think". If Jesus is only found in
Christianity than that is dependant on religion. I would again..ask you to
please prove your above....or please start talking more subjectively when
it comes to faith.
In your way all people who never even heard of Jesus are going to Hell.
This is a sad thing for me to hear. Not sad in that I believe it..but sad
that you do.


thanks
Bren

[e***@hotmail.com]

Post by suneejan
Being kind and treating people well does not get a person to heaven.

Are you sure?? It's not the only requirement, but it is one of the
two. Not being kind and not treating people well will get you to
hell.

Matthew 25: 40-46
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever
you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me
no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no
clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or
thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to
your needs?'
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one
of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
eternal life.

Enuf

[j***@zoomnet.net]

qquito wrote:
5.) Scientific Answer: No one. Because there is neither Heaven nor
Hell.
That would be the "atheistic" answer.
A scientific answer would be something like:
"I'm really not qualified to answer in such matters."

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by e***@hotmail.com

Post by B.G. Kent
there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.
One lives by the Bible and does the same.
Who goes to Heaven?

Both.

Pity you are so over-confident of this answer.

Post by e***@hotmail.com
They both honor the same God (the Father),

Do they? Why are you so sure of this? If I describe Peter N. to you, and you say
you know him, but I say he has blue eyes, while you say he has brown, I would be
justified in saying that you are talking about a _different_ Peter N.

The same applies here: the Moslem says God is one, but we say He is one and
three, one in essence and indivisible, but three Persons equally worshipped and
glorified.

Sounds pretty different to me!

Post by e***@hotmail.com
and they are both
following the same "prime directive" of "love your neighbor as
yourself".

No, they are not.

Post by e***@hotmail.com
When they die and are held accountable for their actions on
earth, they both can proudly claim the same accomplishments.

This is rash and speculative generalization.

[Gordon]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 02:46:40 GMT, "B.G. Kent"

Post by B.G. Kent
there are two men. One lives by the Koran...treats others as himself...is
loving,kind, raises up his family to be good people, takes care of the
sick..goes to the Mosque, does not believe he is better or worse than
anyone else. He is kind to elders and children...to all people. He has
compassion for all people and his love knows no bounds.
One lives by the Bible and does the same.
Who goes to Heaven?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Incomprehensibly, the Muslim teaching of Jesus is that he was one
of the better prophets, but he was a liar and a deceiver. That
is, he was not crucified, but had a likeness crucified in his
place so he could deceive the people into believing that he had
died then been raised from the dead.

Koran Sura 4:156 And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the
Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of god,' Yet they slew
him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his
likeness.

Translated from the Arabic by J.M. Rodwell

Check out a copy of this translation of the Koran from your local
library and read Sura 4. This Sura gives a lot of information
relating to the Muslim perspective of Jesus, the Trinity and
related things.

The Koran adamantly denies that the Trinity concept is right. A
Muslim person can have a mind, body and soul, but God can not be
regarded as any similar make-up of His identity. Humans are
superior to God in this respect, from the Muslim perspective.

How, then, could a Muslim person rely upon Jesus to save them
when they doubt his teachings and think of him as a liar and a
deceiver? And, if Jesus is not their savior, by what means do
they hope to be saved? There is no other means for anyone's
salvation.

Gordon

[e***@hotmail.com]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by e***@hotmail.com
They both honor the same God (the Father),

Do they? Why are you so sure of this? If I describe Peter N. to you, and you say
you know him, but I say he has blue eyes, while you say he has brown, I would be
justified in saying that you are talking about a _different_ Peter N.
The same applies here: the Moslem says God is one, but we say He is one and
three, one in essence and indivisible, but three Persons equally worshipped and
glorified.
Sounds pretty different to me!

The Jewish people also say "God is one" just as the Molsem's(sic) do.
And they were God's chosen people throughout biblical times. It
certainly sounds to me that you are saying the God the Jewish people
believe in is a totally different God. I think that is pretty
arrogant of you!

Would it not be better to say it is the same God with different human
beliefs of him?
With that, my original statement stands.

Enuf

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Gordon
How, then, could a Muslim person rely upon Jesus to save them
when they doubt his teachings and think of him as a liar and a
deceiver? And, if Jesus is not their savior, by what means do
they hope to be saved? There is no other means for anyone's
salvation.
Gordon

B - interesting..you believe one has to be "saved" to go to heaven? What
if there is nothing to be saved from? Remember also..you are looking at
things with a heavily biased view. I doubt that Muslims believe they are
superior to God...that would be quite the stretch. I really hope people
are checking their facts as to other faiths from NON-Biased sources.


Bren

[Gordon]

Post by e***@hotmail.com

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by e***@hotmail.com
They both honor the same God (the Father),

Do they? Why are you so sure of this? If I describe Peter N. to you, and you say
you know him, but I say he has blue eyes, while you say he has brown, I would be
justified in saying that you are talking about a _different_ Peter N.
The same applies here: the Moslem says God is one, but we say He is one and
three, one in essence and indivisible, but three Persons equally worshipped and
glorified.
Sounds pretty different to me!

The Jewish people also say "God is one" just as the Molsem's(sic) do.
And they were God's chosen people throughout biblical times. It
certainly sounds to me that you are saying the God the Jewish people
believe in is a totally different God. I think that is pretty
arrogant of you!

There is no argument that God is indeed one - unity is the word.

The argument or misunderstanding derives from the interpretation
of the idea that ONE can entail THREE different facets. Just as I
am comprised of MIND, BODY and SPIRIT, yet I am only one person,
God is comprised of FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT.

We all certainly hope that our SPIRIT can be separated from our
mortal body. If this can not be, we can not look forward to a
resurrection in a new, perfect body.

Why should anyone place limits on God, yet acknowledge that
humans are not thusly limited? Are we superior to God in this
respect?

God is one - with three facets - FATHER, SON & HOLY SPIRIT

I am one - with three facets - MIND, BODY & SOUL

God created humans in his own image.

Gordon

[Gordon]

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:29:32 GMT, "B.G. Kent"

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Gordon
How, then, could a Muslim person rely upon Jesus to save them
when they doubt his teachings and think of him as a liar and a
deceiver? And, if Jesus is not their savior, by what means do
they hope to be saved? There is no other means for anyone's
salvation.
Gordon

B - interesting..you believe one has to be "saved" to go to heaven? What
if there is nothing to be saved from? Remember also..you are looking at
things with a heavily biased view. I doubt that Muslims believe they are
superior to God...that would be quite the stretch. I really hope people
are checking their facts as to other faiths from NON-Biased sources.
Bren

How could anyone make the transition from this mortal existence
to the level of existence mentioned in the Bible?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
saved.

If we regard this and other such passages as valid, it seems
obvious that Muhammad can not save any of his followers, and if
these followers of Muhammad regard Jesus as a liar and a deceiver
it seems that they can't rely upon Jesus for their salvation.
How, then, do they hope to be saved from this mortal phase of
their existence?

[suneejan]

I also believe one needs to be saved to go to heaven. To be saved. is
to be saved from the wrath of God and his judgement for doing wrong.
The wrath of God is coming and people call this the tribulation which
is mention in the book of Revaltions. No one has been perfect except
for Jesus. And HE took on my sin so I can be saved and be with HIM
when my life on this earth is done. He did this for everyone..people
need to accept this. The old testament has a verse that explains what
Jesus done on the cross Isaiah53:5. The whole chapter is good. As you
well know I base my beliefs on the word of God which is the Holy Bible.

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Gordon
How, then, could a Muslim person rely upon Jesus to save them
when they doubt his teachings and think of him as a liar and a
deceiver? And, if Jesus is not their savior, by what means do
they hope to be saved? There is no other means for anyone's
salvation.

B - interesting..you believe one has to be "saved" to go to heaven? What
if there is nothing to be saved from? Remember also..you are looking at
things with a heavily biased view. I doubt that Muslims believe they are
superior to God...that would be quite the stretch. I really hope people
are checking their facts as to other faiths from NON-Biased sources.