Discussion:
Universalism
(too old to reply)
**Rowland Croucher**
2007-11-28 04:41:46 UTC
Permalink
It seems to me that Universalism
is oppressive - anti-freedom. The Universalist god
takes the Atheist's "no" to mean "yes" - or at least
"well, OK then, if you insist"...#
My response:

Yesterday I had my weekly special-time with our two-year-old
granddaughter. I do the weekly shopping with her, and part of our ritual
is for her to eat a couple of beans, a few grapes, (how do I pay for
them at the register? Check-out chicks have an interesting time with
that :-) a cheese-stick etc.

Yesterday she wanted more beans: how many beans should a two-year-old
eat at one sitting? I said 'No' and began talking about numbers. She
soon accepted my 'No' and was smiling and chatting again...

Now, naughty me, I over-rode her freedom to eat what she wanted. What
kind of grand-father does that make me?

I remember reading C S Lewis' The Problem of Pain about five times
(summarized here - http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1174.htm ) when a
young theological student, and was mightily impressed with his argument
about God allowing humans freedom ('With their will or without it?' etc.)

As he revised a lot of things after his marriage to Joy, and observing
his own grief when she died, and his step-fathering experiences, so
would I these days...

I'm not a universalist as such (I don't think anyone can be definitive
about something where the Scriptures aren't absolutely clear - see the
many articles on the subject on our website) - but I wouldn't be
surprised at all if God is :-) !
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)

Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/

Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
**Rowland Croucher**
2007-12-09 23:47:17 UTC
Permalink
**Rowland Croucher** wrote:

Here's a recent quote on universalism, by the Baptist scholar John
Colwell (from Spurgeon's College, London) (page 27 of his new book, "The
Rhythm of Doctrine" Milton Keynes: Paternoster, 2007).

"The hope of the New Testament is unequivocally universal: there is
no reality that is not destined to be brought to completion in
Christ; there is no knee that will not bow to him, no tongue that
will not confess him; God may have bound all over to disobedience,
but only so that 'he may have mercy on them all' (Romans 11:32). Such
universal hope ought not to be confused with cheap universalism: the
precise outworking of God's merciful love is not to be predicted or
presumed upon; he may love men and women in such a manner as to allow
their rejection of his mercy to remain eternally determinative; he
may love men and women in such a manner as not to do so. But in
either case this will be an outworking of his merciful love rather
than its opposite, for he has and is no opposite; he is who he was;
he is simple and undivided; his justice is coherent with his love and
not its contradiction; as father, Son, and Spirit he is eternally
loving not arbitrary. But while the merciful love of God can never be
presumed upon or its outcomes predicted, the hope that is formed by
(Christian theology) can only be inclusive and never exclusive; a
hope for the world and for all creation; a hope for all men and
women; a hope for the Church and a hope for ourselves."
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)

Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/

Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
b***@acenet.net.au
2007-12-17 03:08:47 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 10, 9:47 am, **Rowland Croucher**
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Here's a recent quote on universalism, by the Baptist scholar John
Colwell (from Spurgeon's College, London) (page 27 of his new book, "The
Rhythm of Doctrine" Milton Keynes: Paternoster, 2007).
"The hope of the New Testament is unequivocally universal: there is
no reality that is not destined to be brought to completion in
Christ; there is no knee that will not bow to him, no tongue that
will not confess him; God may have bound all over to disobedience,
but only so that 'he may have mercy on them all' (Romans 11:32). Such
universal hope ought not to be confused with cheap universalism: the
precise outworking of God's merciful love is not to be predicted or
presumed upon; he may love men and women in such a manner as to allow
their rejection of his mercy to remain eternally determinative; he
may love men and women in such a manner as not to do so. But in
either case this will be an outworking of his merciful love rather
than its opposite, for he has and is no opposite; he is who he was;
he is simple and undivided; his justice is coherent with his love and
not its contradiction; as father, Son, and Spirit he is eternally
loving not arbitrary. But while the merciful love of God can never be
presumed upon or its outcomes predicted, the hope that is formed by
(Christian theology) can only be inclusive and never exclusive; a
hope for the world and for all creation; a hope for all men and
women; a hope for the Church and a hope for ourselves."
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)
Blogs -http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/
Justice for Dawn Rowan -http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/
Funny Jokes and Pics -http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
The fact is that we don't know what arrangements God has made for
those who have no or insufficient exposure to the Gospel.

One of the things that intrigues me though is that Christ said "He who
has not believed has already been judged", while at the same time
saying that He claims "only those the Father has given me". This
seems contradictory, as though those who have not believed were simply
unable to do so, because the Father has not called them. I claim
that the night my father died he appeared in my room, beginning with
an apology and finishing with one almighty scream, then vanishing. He
actually died kilometres away. As far as I can tell my father is in
Hell, and I had the unpleasant experience of witnessing his reaction
to Hell's approach. He was literally shaking while he screamed.

I became Christian about four years later (and not due to the
'apparition' either). Since then I've gone to the next stage and gone
Catholic, which means I believe in Purgatory. I also happen to
believe both my mother and sister are in Purgatory, since despite the
frightening nature of the episode with my father, I do not believe in
the hardline Calvinist God. I think He gives us an opportunity to
clean up after death ("there you will stay, I tell you, until you have
paid every last penny of your fine").

But one of the things that sticks in my mind was one of his comments
"I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice'. Yet later
in the proceedings he said "I was willing" (to act in the cruel way he
did). So ... predestination which almost seems to have been divinely
willed, and his own free choice seem to coincide.

Now, how do you explain that in terms of either universalism or
"Love"?

Incidentally he also said "You'll meet a pastor (I was an atheist at
the time). You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is discourage
you even more'.

About twelve years later I had the pastor say to me in his office "I
owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, but all I've done is to
discourage you even more!" After he said that, I told him what my
father had said. I think that was the first time he really accepted
I'd seen my father that night.

And I'm writing from personal experience here - not theological
theory.

Loading...