I am going to concentrate my efforts on talk.origins

[b***@juno.com]

Hello friends:

I have been posting here for a couple of years. After our recent
election, I have come to realize that posting my defenses of
Christianity here is not very useful.

Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.

We need to stop preaching to the choir, and directly engage the forces
of evil.

So I am going to concentrate my posting efforts on talk.origins

Why? Becuase it is there that the underpinning of the atheist viewpoint
is most staunchly defended. I am going to go over there and fight the
Lord's fight as best I can.

I encourage any of you who consider yourself up to the challenge to
join me. We can check back here in the safety of a "moderated"
Christian newsgroup sometimes. But we need to contend mightily for the
faith.

And I'm not going to be very "nice" about it either. Remember, Christ
used even name calling against those he opposed. "You hypocrites! You
white tombs! You brood of vipers!"

I will wage an all out assault on the theory of evolution, which I
consider hideously evil. Join me, my friends! It will be great fun!

-Bimms

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by b***@juno.com
I have been posting here for a couple of years. After our recent
election, I have come to realize that posting my defenses of
Christianity here is not very useful.
Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.
We need to stop preaching to the choir, and directly engage the forces
of evil.

You just now figured this out?

Post by b***@juno.com
So I am going to concentrate my posting efforts on talk.origins

Then you will still be devoting all your efforts to a losing battle, when you
could be devoting your efforts to a battle where you have a chance.

Post by b***@juno.com
Why? Becuase it is there that the underpinning of the atheist viewpoint
is most staunchly defended.

But the wise general does not attack the enemy where he is strong; he attacks
where he is weak.

Post by b***@juno.com
I am going to go over there and fight the
Lord's fight as best I can.

I have seen what goes on over there. That is NOT "The Lord's fight". Not even
close.

Post by b***@juno.com
I encourage any of you who consider yourself up to the challenge to
join me. We can check back here in the safety of a "moderated"
Christian newsgroup sometimes. But we need to contend mightily for the
faith.

And I encourage any of you who will listen NOT to do this. Because it is NOT
"contending mightily for the faith" that goes on there. It is LOGOMACHIA of the
most vain kind.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by b***@juno.com
And I'm not going to be very "nice" about it either. Remember, Christ
used even name calling against those he opposed. "You hypocrites! You
white tombs! You brood of vipers!"

B - And he supposedly said "treat others as you would have them treat you"
so remember that if anyone calls you a name.

Post by b***@juno.com
I will wage an all out assault on the theory of evolution, which I
consider hideously evil. Join me, my friends! It will be great fun!
-Bimms

B - Wow...whatever way you get your jollies....

Bren

[Steve Hayes]

Post by b***@juno.com
I will wage an all out assault on the theory of evolution, which I
consider hideously evil. Join me, my friends! It will be great fun!

How boring.

At least you will have Ed Conrad for company.

[gilgames]

<<

Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.
Only in short term

Number of mentally ill persons (18 yeras and older) in the US:
1970 5%
1999 20%
2004 26.4%

[Old George down on the bayou]

Post by b***@juno.com
<<
Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.
Only in short term
1970 5%
1999 20%
2004 26.4%

Wow! The life expectancy of mentally ill persons appears to be really
on the increase!
It is well that we look after the health of our mentally ill, and see
that they get a living wage. However, I do think we should not elect
so many to go to Washington. There seems to be something in the
drinking water up that that aggravates their condition.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by b***@juno.com
<<
Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.
Only in short term

B - amazing that he would think that really (the original poster I mean).
I see us all growing spiritually in
leaps and bounds. Less racism....more tolerance...less sexism...more
adherance to environmental issues than ever before...the patriarchy
slowing down albeit very slowly. I guess it depends on where you stand
....you get a different view dependant.

I.M.E.

Blessings
Bren

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by B.G. Kent
I see us all growing spiritually in
leaps and bounds. Less racism....more tolerance...less sexism...more
adherance to environmental issues than ever before...the patriarchy
slowing down albeit very slowly. I guess it depends on where you stand
....you get a different view dependant.

What planet are you living on? Western culture has all but shed
any moral standard. Even in the work force, productivity, i.e. work
ethic, is blatantly erroded from even just 50 yrs ago. Affluency and
personal peace, two Francis Schaeffer speaking points from 30+
years ago, are all but absolute today. Less racism? Boy are your
living in a fantasy world. You obviously don't have much contact with
the blue collar world. Is it less overt? Yes. But it hasn't in any
manner of the imagination decreased. I remember black and white
drinking fountains in both Mississippi and in Georgia. That sort
of overt racism is gone but nothing has change one iota in the
inner man.

Here again, you run counter to the Biblical teaching.

2 Tim. 3:1-7 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times
will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful,
arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control,
brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of
pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding to a form of godliness,
although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these. For
among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women
weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and
never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by l***@hotmail.com

Post by B.G. Kent
I see us all growing spiritually in
leaps and bounds. Less racism....more tolerance...less sexism...more
adherance to environmental issues than ever before...the patriarchy
slowing down albeit very slowly. I guess it depends on where you stand
....you get a different view dependant.

What planet are you living on? Western culture has all but shed
any moral standard. Even in the work force, productivity, i.e. work
ethic, is blatantly erroded from even just 50 yrs ago. Affluency and
personal peace, two Francis Schaeffer speaking points from 30+
years ago, are all but absolute today. Less racism? Boy are your
living in a fantasy world. You obviously don't have much contact with
the blue collar world. Is it less overt? Yes. But it hasn't in any
manner of the imagination decreased. I remember black and white
drinking fountains in both Mississippi and in Georgia. That sort
of overt racism is gone but nothing has change one iota in the
inner man.

B- heh...my father ...a very strong Socialist and my mum...still one..and
yet you seem to think I have little in common with the blue collar world?
and on that you seem to think that blue collar people are more racist than
the white collar? who's living in what fantasy world now? racism is
down...a lot. Moral standard? we are all against killing if I may use a
generality...woman's rights have gone up....gay persons are not being
killed as much as they once were. I see the God in all and the good in
all. To me...we are going to a pinnacle in the patriarchy...and this world
is changing...the old way is dying...the end of that age yes and instead
of nothing being left... I see a far more tolerant and loving world coming
to the forefront. Sorry that this messes with your gloom and doom
fantasties...but we all don't think alike. My glass has always been
half-full and I am very "aware" thankyou very much.
People have been forecasting the end of time for eons....and yes...I think
this age..the Piscean age is dying..but the better world is coming.

Now go out there and have a beautiful day.

I.M.O
Bren

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by B.G. Kent
B- heh...my father ...a very strong Socialist and my mum...still one..and
yet you seem to think I have little in common with the blue collar world?
and on that you seem to think that blue collar people are more racist than
the white collar?

No, not at all. They are merely more straight out with it.

Post by B.G. Kent
who's living in what fantasy world now? racism is
down...a lot.

No it isn't. This is the standard humanistic dream world, i.e.
idealism. Before long you'll have us graduating into some sort
of Star Trek utopia.

Post by B.G. Kent
Moral standard? we are all against killing

Not so. First off, "killing" is much to be differentiated from
"murder." The commandment is not, "Thou shall not kill,"
but rather, "Thou shall not murder." And besides, Christ
raised the bar when He declared the Kingdom standard as
being that even if you bare hatred toward someone, according
to God's standard, you're guilty of murder.

Second, prisons have never had so many inmates who have
committed violent crimes, male and female. The only difference
between the two is that men will murder just about anybody
while women predominately murder their children. Don't say
it aint so because I have too many friends who work in several
different state, federal and local jails.

Post by B.G. Kent
if I may use a
generality...woman's rights have gone up....gay persons are not being
killed as much as they once were.

Even if this is true, which I think you need to look at some historical
statistical data, it does not dismiss the thought life. People today
aren't any different than they were 100 yrs, a 1000 yrs, 4000 yrs
ago. Only Christ can make a difference in the heart of man.

Prov. 27:19 As in water face reflects face, so the heart of man
reflects man.

Men's hearts do not change until they have been "born again."

Post by B.G. Kent
I see the God in all and the good in
all. To me...we are going to a pinnacle in the patriarchy...and this world
is changing...the old way is dying...the end of that age yes and instead
of nothing being left... I see a far more tolerant and loving world coming
to the forefront.

I was white collar for 25 yrs. Before that I was blue collar and
though
I am now retired, I still keep a job in a very blue collar, labor union
shop. Nothing has changed in my 60 yrs in the work force. Nothing.
It just isn't as blatant because people could lose their jobs. But
even
after 3 years of retirement, going back to work in that union blue
collar shop, the first thing I encountered was a very distinct black/
white separatism. One of the men I work with, a white man, has
had his house vandalized by some of the black men from the shop.
And this "shop" is a Fortune 100 international company. Rules and
laws do not change how men think. It merely restrains them until
either anger overcomes that restraint or they think they can get away
with it.

Post by B.G. Kent
Sorry that this messes with your gloom and doom
fantasties...but we all don't think alike.

Gen. 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the
earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
continually.
Ps. 140:2 Who devise evil things in their hearts; They continually stir
up wars.
Prov. 6:14 Who with perversity in his heart devises evil continually,
Who spreads strife.

Post by B.G. Kent
My glass has always been
half-full and I am very "aware" thankyou very much.

The things that you've posted here over the year has proven
that you are only aware of the world that you have presumed.
It is not the real world nor is this discription of yours what
men really are. You've not been war have you? You've not
seen how perfectly decent sort of young chaps can suddenly
turn into quite violent and selfish uncaring killers. You need
to go back and read "Lord of the Flies."

Post by B.G. Kent
People have been forecasting the end of time for eons....and yes...I think
this age..the Piscean age is dying..but the better world is coming.

"Piscean age." And you want us to believe that you're a
Christian. Aint that rich! The more you post the more
condemnation you are storing up for yourself.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by l***@hotmail.com
idealism. Before long you'll have us graduating into some sort
of Star Trek utopia.

B - hate to burst your Bubble bub...but I'm not a humanist.

Post by l***@hotmail.com

Post by B.G. Kent
Moral standard? we are all against killing

Not so. First off, "killing" is much to be differentiated from
"murder." The commandment is not, "Thou shall not kill,"

B - Oh save me.......
Murder and killing are the same thing.

Only Christ can make a difference in the heart of man.

B - Hey now..we agree on something but ofcourse I don't write it out as an
objective statement as you do.

Post by l***@hotmail.com
collar shop, the first thing I encountered was a very distinct black/
white separatism. One of the men I work with, a white man, has
had his house vandalized by some of the black men from the shop.

B - Well that's sad. I don't see the same kind of racism here in
Canada...but I do believe it is changing all over the world.

Post by l***@hotmail.com
It is not the real world nor is this discription of yours what
men really are. You've not been war have you? You've not

B - NOpe..and I know about how violence and all of our dark sides just lie
bubbling under the surface...that does not mean that human beings cannot
progress spiritually on earth.

Post by l***@hotmail.com
"Piscean age." And you want us to believe that you're a
Christian. Aint that rich! The more you post the more
condemnation you are storing up for yourself.

B - Yes...Piscean Age...remember Moses..in the O.T. whose life was
predicted by astrologers? and Jesus whose birthplace was shown and known
by the three "wise men" when they "saw a star"? ....yes...I am a
Christian.

I.M.O

Blessings
Bren

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by l***@hotmail.com
idealism. Before long you'll have us graduating into some sort
of Star Trek utopia.

B - hate to burst your Bubble bub...but I'm not a humanist.

There are different manifestations of a "humanist." There is the
philosophical humanist and then there is the practicing humanist. You
are of the later fold. But this is only a technical distinction
because either philosophically or practicing, they both extend out of a
self-oriented heart. Your presumptions are humanist in that you set
yourself up as arbitrator of what is and what is not of God. Faith is
based upon conviction not reason.

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by l***@hotmail.com

Post by B.G. Kent
Moral standard? we are all against killing

Not so. First off, "killing" is much to be differentiated from
"murder." The commandment is not, "Thou shall not kill,"

B - Oh save me.......
Murder and killing are the same thing.

No they are not and that is why the Decalogue manifestly notes "murder"
as opposed to killing. Murder extends out of a self-oriented heart.
It has it root sunk deeply in covetousness. Would you ascribe the
hangman, one who is assigned to carry out sentence of justice, a
"murderer?" If you do then you may as well ascribe to God Himself
who's "wrath" we seek salvation from. Who's judgment will be the
"second death". In point of fact, the "first" death was a direct act
of God wherein man was subject not only to physical death but to
spiritual death as well.

Murder and killing are NOT the same thing. Again, your reveal your
liberal bent in your humanistic display.

Post by B.G. Kent
Only Christ can make a difference in the heart of man.
B - Hey now..we agree on something but ofcourse I don't write it out as an
objective statement as you do.

You do not agree. You assume, actually, presume. You presume a
utopian ideal that all "roads" lead to God. That salvation can be
gleaned from Budha as well as Christ. You assume that the "good" deed
that unbelieving men do reflects Christ in their hearts. Christ only
dwells in the believers heart and therefore only a true believer, one
who has been born again, who has a heart change, who can perform
Divinely judged "good deeds." No man is better, really, until he
confesses his sin and confesses the One True Savior, Jesus Christ.
There are NO other avenues and no other produces of change in men's
hearts.

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by l***@hotmail.com
collar shop, the first thing I encountered was a very distinct black/
white separatism. One of the men I work with, a white man, has
had his house vandalized by some of the black men from the shop.

B - Well that's sad. I don't see the same kind of racism here in
Canada...but I do believe it is changing all over the world.

Do you not watch the news? What is occuring in the 3rd world?
Tribalism. Just another form of elitism, which is all that racism is.
What is the problem in Iraq? It is tribalism. Why is Europe at war
within its own boarders? It is both racism and tribalism. It one
party wishing power over another. This is the end of all men apart
from the saving work of God in the hearts of believers.

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by l***@hotmail.com
It is not the real world nor is this discription of yours what
men really are. You've not been war have you? You've not

B - NOpe..and I know about how violence and all of our dark sides just lie
bubbling under the surface...that does not mean that human beings cannot
progress spiritually on earth.

But change has to first come in the inner man before it can manifest
itself to the outer world. The inner always preceeds the outer. This
is why Christ declares to Nicodemus in John 3 that a man
*must_be_born_again.* There is no second way. Christ is THE Way, THE
Truth and THE Life. Apart from belief in Him, the best man is at best,
just a man. There is NO progress apart from regeneration.

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by l***@hotmail.com
"Piscean age." And you want us to believe that you're a
Christian. Aint that rich! The more you post the more
condemnation you are storing up for yourself.

B - Yes...Piscean Age...remember Moses..in the O.T. whose life was
predicted by astrologers? and Jesus whose birthplace was shown and known
by the three "wise men" when they "saw a star"? ....yes...I am a
Christian.

NO, not astrologers, astronomers. Major distinction. Astrology is but
another humanistic religion based upon men thinking that they can
better themselves by themselves. Why else do you think it was judged
at the first Babel. That tower was an astrological stairway to heaven.
You presume the same error that they did. You think that men can, in
and of themselves, lead themselves and their societies into the Kingdom
of God. This IS ancient humanism which reaches all the way back into
the garden.

You don't get it, do you? That is because these things are Spiritually
appraised. You need to repent of your own elitism. You need to bend
the knee to Christ alone and ask for forgiveness and for rebirth.
Apart from these you will never see/incline your heart toward God.
Look at the example given to us of the Jews who had a head knowledge of
God but their hearts were not regenerated. "They had a zeal for God
but not according to knowledge." This is your plight unless you
finally set aside self and repent.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by l***@hotmail.com
idealism. Before long you'll have us graduating into some sort
of Star Trek utopia.

B - hate to burst your Bubble bub...but I'm not a humanist.

I suppose this should be easy to believe. After all, the overwhelming majority
of humanists are too well educated to use '...' as their main punctuation mark.

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by l***@hotmail.com

Post by B.G. Kent
Moral standard? we are all against killing

Not so. First off, "killing" is much to be differentiated from
"murder." The commandment is not, "Thou shall not kill,"

B - Oh save me.......

You ask for the impossible...

Post by B.G. Kent
Murder and killing are the same thing.

No, they are not. This _should_ have been obvious from even just one book,
Exodus.

[snip]

[B.G. Kent]

Post by l***@hotmail.com
Your presumptions are humanist in that you set
yourself up as arbitrator of what is and what is not of God. Faith is
based upon conviction not reason.

B - No. I ask God.....and I use what I find to shape my faith. I have no
problem with anyone else's faith until they start trying to tell me that
their way is the only way. For me....God is the only way.
As to the rest of your post....I say interesting opinion, Isenders.


Blessings
Bren

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by l***@hotmail.com
Your presumptions are humanist in that you set
yourself up as arbitrator of what is and what is not of God. Faith is
based upon conviction not reason.

B - No. I ask God.....and I use what I find to shape my faith.

But how are you granted an answer to your petition? There is only
one absolute (i.e. non-relativisitic) source of verification -that
being
the Infallible Word of God.

Post by B.G. Kent
I have no
problem with anyone else's faith

Pantheism.

Post by B.G. Kent
until they start trying to tell me that
their way is the only way.

You deny exclussivity by your own exclussive assumption. Don't
you see it for yourself?

Post by B.G. Kent
For me....God is the only way.

Which God? He isn't a pot pourri of ideas - men's ideas. When
it is declared that He is Sovereign and Immutable, it speaks of
absolutes.

Here is the rub against your system. You can't live it. When
your car stops running and you take to the mechanic, he has
to correctly interpret/diagnose what is wrong. If you ran out
of gas, would you have him just fill your tank with vinegar?

Post by B.G. Kent
until they start trying to tell me that
their way is the only way.

And yet in the REAL world, only gasoline will work to
cause the appropriate ignition within the cylinder chamber.

When you get on the airplane, flying off to grandma's for
Thanksgiving, you would be very upset if the pilot suddenly
decided he was going to fly to his grandmother's city. There
is ONLY one way. You drive down the highway in faith
based upon ONE set of rule for the road. What chaos if
everyone started driving on whatever side of the road they
felt like driving on that day. But no, there are rules and
because of the rules, you will be arrested and put in jail
if you do not follow them as they are written.

Post by B.G. Kent
until they start trying to tell me that
their way is the only way.

You can only drive down the road in the direction mandated
by communial law. You can only design an airplane if you
STRICTLY adhere to the rules of the aerodynamic world.

We live our lives based upon the construct that there is only
one right way. And yet when it comes to religion, you do what
the pantheist does, you jump into the upper tier, the "spiritual"
world which does not conform to the material world. But the
Biblical picture is that they are not so exclusive of one another.
Cause and effect applies to the spirit world as well as to the
material world. When Adam sinned, it caused an effect in
both the immediate material world and in the "spiritual"
world. Truth is truth regardless of which "world" you
wish to ascribe it to.

Again, your system simply does not fly. It is inconsistant
to that which is. This is why we have had so many
different philosophical systems, explaination of what
and why. They just don't fit with the real world. And
so too with your relativistic idea of Truth. You are in
need of the same terminology as modern man. You
need to recognize there is True Truth. Your view of
Truth is nothing more than "truth" a relativistic
opinion. That is not the definition, the nature of God,
captial "G."

[B.G. Kent]

Post by l***@hotmail.com
But how are you granted an answer to your petition? There is only
one absolute (i.e. non-relativisitic) source of verification -that
being
the Infallible Word of God.

B - I agree.

Post by l***@hotmail.com

Post by B.G. Kent
I have no
problem with anyone else's faith

Pantheism.

B - tolerance for the most part..but I have my bad days too.

Post by l***@hotmail.com

Post by B.G. Kent
until they start trying to tell me that
their way is the only way.

You deny exclussivity by your own exclussive assumption. Don't
you see it for yourself?

B - NO...I deny exclusivity only when it is told that I MUST be this
way..because someone says so....unless that someone is God.

Post by l***@hotmail.com

Post by B.G. Kent
For me....God is the only way.

Which God? He isn't a pot pourri of ideas - men's ideas. When
it is declared that He is Sovereign and Immutable, it speaks of
absolutes.

B - God..in whatever guise it takes.

Post by l***@hotmail.com
Here is the rub against your system. You can't live it.

When

Post by l***@hotmail.com
your car stops running and you take to the mechanic, he has
to correctly interpret/diagnose what is wrong. If you ran out
of gas, would you have him just fill your tank with vinegar?

B - actually I do live my faith or system as you call it. You just still
have a time understanding my way.

Post by l***@hotmail.com
Again, your system simply does not fly. It is inconsistant
to that which is. This is why we have had so many
different philosophical systems, explaination of what
and why. They just don't fit with the real world. And

B - Oh dear Isender..you simply don't understand and hopefully you will
soon enough. Your metaphoric scenerios don't work because you simply don't
udnerstnd to begin with. YOu focus on the differences between
faiths,ways,paths,religions....I focus on the similarities first with a
smaller focus on the differences. Doing this can can open you up to the
Unity of God...the wholeness..the love and the inclusive nature of many
mansions in one house. You have to take a wholism look and not piecemeal
things out to think as I do. I love God....I see God as ONE GOd with many
archetypes...many manifestations....many flowers in one Garden....you see
God as one being who looks like a man telling us what to do....who to love
and what to day and then a reward in heaven...we are different in this
aspect but we have God in common and that is why I see you as a loved
one...even if you make my eyes roll at times.
I relish your views on God and the Bible...they are what makes
you..you....but telling me to be like you or be cast in Hell....well
hon...that's up to God.

love and Happy Turkey,
or Torfurky,
Bren

[Old George down on the bayou]

Post by b***@juno.com
I have been posting here for a couple of years. After our recent
election, I have come to realize that posting my defenses of
Christianity here is not very useful.
Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.

You are going to do what you were born to do. So far you appear to be
a born loser. The winner does his home work before he attacks. The
idea is to understand that which you want to attack. The loser does not
do his homework.

If you go to talk origins, you will be competing with those who have
studied the theory of evolution and who know exactly what it is all
about. They know the mathematics of evolution. They will eat you
alive.

If you want to attack evolution, take a university level course in
biological evolution. Study what you are taught and learn to see
evolution as biologist see it. That "course" you had in evolution that
was taught in your church, did not prepare you to debate the issue. You
can set up straw men, knock 'em down, stomp 'em flat, ridicule
'em, bury 'em and not accomplish one thing.

On the other hand, if you know that evolution cannot be defeated, no
matter how well you understand it, just continue to set up your straw
men and knock 'em and sock 'em and dance around and tell us what a
great fighter you are. You might impressed others who also don't
know diddley squat about the theory of evolution.

[h***@geneva.rutgers.edu]

Post by b***@juno.com
Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.

Old George down on the bayou <***@bayou.com> wrong
...

Post by b***@juno.com
If you go to talk origins, you will be competing with those who have
studied the theory of evolution and who know exactly what it is all
about. They know the mathematics of evolution. They will eat you
alive.

I agree with both. We are in a struggle for the soul. However I'm
really concerned that well-meaning Christians are causing significant
damage to that struggle.

One of the most serious anti-Christian attacks is the claim that
Christianity is opposed to science. In fact it's not. The scientific
method was developed by Christians, and scientific investigation has
generally been supported by Christians.

But the current debate on evolution certainly gives the impression
that the propaganda is true. Until recently the debate has largely
been polite on the scientific side, with those defending evolution
making the point that many Christian accept it. I believe it is
beginning to get less polite. Together with a renewed Christian attack
on evolution I'm seeing more common attacks on Christianity as just a
bunch of ignorance and superstition.

If Christians manage to convince people that Christianity is opposed
to science, I believe it will have a serious effect on Christianity.

I don't consider science superior to Christianity. However it is
certainly more objective, largely because by definition it only deals
with areas in which objective tests can be done (at least ideally).
Religion deals with meaning, and with kinds of experience in which
people can well be self-deluded. Where it is possible to check it
against scientific reasoning, that should be done.

Of course it is possible that you can convince people that the science
is wrong. I'm not an expert on evolution, which is one reason I'm not
willing to moderate discussions involving it. However as a
non-specialist that has done some reading, my impression is that
attacks on evolution aren't going to work, and will primarily serve
to discredit Christianity.

Non-Christians are reasonable to say that before we talk to them about
things that can't be verified, we should at least be right about the
things that can.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu

Post by b***@juno.com
Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.

...

Post by b***@juno.com
If you go to talk origins, you will be competing with those who have
studied the theory of evolution and who know exactly what it is all
about. They know the mathematics of evolution. They will eat you
alive.

I agree with both. We are in a struggle for the soul. However I'm
really concerned that well-meaning Christians are causing significant
damage to that struggle.

I don't know why are are convinced they are 'well-meaning'. Many of
them have a hidden agenda: to squeeze out of their "faith communities"
all those who think differently.

Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
One of the most serious anti-Christian attacks is the claim that
Christianity is opposed to science. In fact it's not. The scientific
method was developed by Christians, and scientific investigation has
generally been supported by Christians.
But the current debate on evolution certainly gives the impression
that the propaganda is true. Until recently the debate has largely
been polite on the scientific side,

You must be referring to a time before Dawkins started
publishing. Even his idol Sagan had already set politeness aside and
chose propagating anti-Christian slander and propaganda instead, such
as his accusation that St. Cyril organized and orchestrated the
murder of Hypatia.

Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
with those defending evolution making the point that many Christian
accept it. I believe it is beginning to get less polite. Together
with a renewed Christian attack on evolution I'm seeing more common
attacks on Christianity as just a bunch of ignorance and
superstition.
If Christians manage to convince people that Christianity is opposed
to science, I believe it will have a serious effect on Christianity.

And since these 'Christians' already _have_ managed to persuade many
that "Christianity is opposed to science", it already has had this
serious effect. So why are you talking about it in the _future_ tense?

[snip]

Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Of course it is possible that you can convince people that the science
is wrong.

It is possible, but history shows it is possible only a a VERY high
cost. Some of, even many of us, consider that cost too high, like
throwoing out the baby with the bathwater.

Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
I'm not an expert on evolution, which is one reason I'm not willing
to moderate discussions involving it. However as a non-specialist
that has done some reading, my impression is that attacks on
evolution aren't going to work, and will primarily serve to discredit
Christianity.

Whether or not they 'work' depends on what people are really trying to
accomplish with them. If they are trying to build and encourage a
bitter, polarized divide between educated people and their
co-religionists, such attacks will work very well.

Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu
Non-Christians are reasonable to say that before we talk to them
about things that can't be verified, we should at least be right
about the things that can.

True. But people who insist that Christianity is incompatible with
evolution are not _interested_ in reaching reasonable people. They are
interested in something else entirely.

[mcv]

Post by h***@geneva.rutgers.edu

Post by b***@juno.com
Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.

...

Post by b***@juno.com
If you go to talk origins, you will be competing with those who have
studied the theory of evolution and who know exactly what it is all
about. They know the mathematics of evolution. They will eat you
alive.

I agree with both. We are in a struggle for the soul. However I'm
really concerned that well-meaning Christians are causing significant
damage to that struggle.
One of the most serious anti-Christian attacks is the claim that
Christianity is opposed to science. In fact it's not. The scientific
method was developed by Christians, and scientific investigation has
generally been supported by Christians.
But the current debate on evolution certainly gives the impression
that the propaganda is true. Until recently the debate has largely
been polite on the scientific side, with those defending evolution
making the point that many Christian accept it. I believe it is
beginning to get less polite. Together with a renewed Christian attack
on evolution I'm seeing more common attacks on Christianity as just a
bunch of ignorance and superstition.

In this struggle, talk.origins might actually be a force of good. There's
a large group of christians there who keep explaining to both creationists
and atheists that there is no conflict between christian faith and
evolution or other scientific theories.

I'm one of them, and I think this is a really important point to make.

My position on the matter is that science is actually a great way to
learn more about God's works, and therefore more about the greatness
of God. Science has expanded the scope of creation, and the power that
God must have in order to have created this almost infinite universe.
Evolution is just one of the many wonderful and powerful mechanisms in
this universe that he created.

The only way evolution conflicts with a belief in a creator is if you
view that creator as a really powerful super-alien that's still at
least partially subject to the laws of nature, and inhabits this
universe just like we do. I think that's a really small view of God,
but obviously opinions differ.


mcv.

[Chris Smith]

Post by b***@juno.com
So I am going to concentrate my posting efforts on talk.origins
I will wage an all out assault on the theory of evolution, which I
consider hideously evil. Join me, my friends! It will be great fun!

St. Augustine; De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim ("The Literal
Meaning of Genesis"):

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the
heavens, and the other elements of the world [...]. Now, it is a
disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian,
presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on
these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an
embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a
Christian and laugh it to scorn.

Augustine said this about science of his day which contradicted the
naive interpretation of Genesis; but how much more true it is of the
science of this day. I encourage you to rethink your plans to reinforce
the anti-science stereotypes that were created to marginalize religion
in the mid-19th century. They have been wildly successful, and that's
quite a shame, because the Christian faith doesn't call us to engage in
a battle against science; but rather in a life of faith and communion
with God.

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by b***@juno.com
I have been posting here for a couple of years. After our recent
election, I have come to realize that posting my defenses of
Christianity here is not very useful.
Basically, as much as I love this newsgroup, I have come to realize
that we Christians are in a desperate struggle for the soul of Western
Civilization, and we are losing.
We need to stop preaching to the choir,

SNIP

This is fine. Certainly we are called to be witnesses of the Gospel.
I
guess my point concerning your post is that it need not be an either/or
situation. As for "preaching to the choir", not everyone sitting in
the
"choir" is either Christian or they are the "certain persons (who) have
crept in unnoticed" of Jude 4. Of the later, those who are of THE
Faith,
are called to contend with them as to True doctrine. Personally, this
is my motivation- to present biblical orthodoxy as opposed to either
the rationalization of men or the traditions of men. His Word is to
be kept pure.

As for the struggle for Western Civilization, my question to you is,
was it ever a Christian one? In the case of the US, it had many, if
not most, of the framers of the Declaration of Independence and
the Constitution and the Bill of Rights being true men of the Bible-
Conservative Protestants even. However, it never was a "Christian
Nation" as there is no such animal. There is only one elect nation,
and that is Israel. Certainly the West has been afforded great
freedoms, the greatest in the history of man, all based solely upon
the Reformational doctrines. However, we are not to confuse this with
any thoughts of having lost a "Christian" majority. We have lost a
large portion of the people attending Christian churches, but I
would contend that the West, like Israel, only ever had a remnant.

[qquito]

Why do you need any fight at all? After the Judgment Day which is
coming soon according to the Bible, you and all other Christians will
be in Heaven enjoying eternal life, pleasure and victory, and in
comparison, your current life, whether you like it or not, is only
infinitesial.

Additionally, the currently reality, no matter how bad it is, is what
the omniscient God foresaw and liked long before He created this world.
You couldn't have made the current reality any different. Or you would
have proved God's foreknowledge is wrong. The same applies to the
future: You cannot make any specific future time any different, better
or worse, than what God foresaw eons ago.

--Roland

......
I will wage an all out assault on the theory of evolution, which I
consider hideously evil. Join me, my friends! It will be great fun!
-Bimms

[B.G. Kent]

Post by qquito
Why do you need any fight at all? After the Judgment Day which is
coming soon according to the Bible, you and all other Christians will
be in Heaven enjoying eternal life, pleasure and v

B - Didn't they (those interpreters of the Bible)say that Judgement was
coming at 1000 A.D. ? and then
again in 1900 A.D.? and then 2000? A.D.?
ONe wonders.


Bren

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by qquito
Additionally, the currently reality, no matter how bad it is, is what
the omniscient God foresaw and liked long before He created this world.
You couldn't have made the current reality any different. Or you would
have proved God's foreknowledge is wrong. The same applies to the
future: You cannot make any specific future time any different, better
or worse, than what God foresaw eons ago.

Foreknowledge is not causative. Until some sort of causation can be
demonstrated, there is no argument.
As for the reality being different, it could have been different based
on ANY decision in the history of humanity, and had it been different,
then the content of Gods foreknowledge would have been different.
Likewise the future.

And for us anchored in time, how can we know God won't bring about
the future he wants based on bimms going to talk.origins?
It's a little silly to think that even if a future is already known,
we should therefore just sit and do nothing.

I'm not sure if you have ever really looked into the free-will
debate, but it really has nothing to do with God or foreknowledge.
There are atheists who are absolute determinists as well. I can
probably guess counter-point, but I'll wait until I see it to respond
any further.

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - Didn't they (those interpreters of the Bible)say that Judgement was
coming at 1000 A.D. ? and then
again in 1900 A.D.? and then 2000? A.D.?
ONe wonders.

"They will say, "Where is this 'coming' that he promised? Ever
since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has from the beginning
of creation. But do not forget this one thing: with the Lord, a day is
like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. The Lord is not
sow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness, he is patient
with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to
repentance."

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by qquito
Why do you need any fight at all? After the Judgment Day which is
coming soon according to the Bible, you and all other Christians will
be in Heaven enjoying eternal life, pleasure and v

B - Didn't they (those interpreters of the Bible)say that Judgement was
coming at 1000 A.D. ? and then
again in 1900 A.D.? and then 2000? A.D.?
ONe wonders.

You fault the Word of God because some have errored in their treatment
of its revelation? The message is not dirtied just because the
messenger fell down.

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by qquito
Additionally, the currently reality, no matter how bad it is, is what
the omniscient God foresaw and liked long before He created this world.
You couldn't have made the current reality any different. Or you would
have proved God's foreknowledge is wrong. The same applies to the
future: You cannot make any specific future time any different, better
or worse, than what God foresaw eons ago.

Foreknowledge is not causative.

Agreed, however, within the Plan of God, providence is both active and
passive. Somethings He merely passively allows to come to pass by
their natural cause and effect melodrama. At other times, He most
certainly does "step into history" and directly and actively cause
events
to unfold. The crucifixion is the primary example of this.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by l***@hotmail.com
You fault the Word of God because some have errored in their treatment
of its revelation? The message is not dirtied just because the
messenger fell down.

'errored"?

I'm sorry to be a pedantic old curmugeon yet agasin, but you seem to make a
persistent habit of:

(1) creating neologisms like "errored" (did you mean "erred"?)

(2) using words to mean things that are found only in your idiolect, and mean
something quite different to what they mean to most other people (an example I
recall is the peculiar meaning you gave to "pithy")

The problem with this is that it makes it difficult for other people to know
what you are talking about a lot of the time, and this leads to
misunderstandings and a failure to communicate.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by r***@yahoo.com
like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. The Lord is not
sow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness, he is patient
with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to
repentance."

B - Do you agree with this?

Bren

[B.G. Kent]

Post by l***@hotmail.com
You fault the Word of God because some have errored in their treatment
of its revelation?

B - NO..I don't fault the Word of God at all....but I do wonder at the way
people will follow like sheep dependant on who bangs the Bible the
hardest.


The message is not dirtied just because the

Post by l***@hotmail.com
messenger fell down.

B - That's what I have been saying all along.....messengers DO fall down
and it is up to us to look and listen within to have God guide us to what
is the right message.....


I.M.O
Bren

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - That's what I have been saying all along.....messengers DO fall down
and it is up to us to look and listen within to have God guide us to what
is the right message.....

It's not that simple. "feeling" what the Word of God is speaking to us
is not the basis of interpretation. I suppose it only has a role, a
minor one at that, in the _application_ of the Word of God. What is it
saying to me specifically and this point in time. However, doctrine is
not about application. It is about interpretation and to rightly
interpret the Word of God, one must adhere to the grammatical laws,
account for the context of the statement/argument, the cultural
definitions, all the while remaining true to the cohesive nature of
the entire Bible.

Again, you display an pantheistic application of truth. That school is
both humanistic and relativistic. You have NO sure standard of Truth.

[Chris Smith]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - NO..I don't fault the Word of God at all....but I do wonder at the way
people will follow like sheep dependant on who bangs the Bible the
hardest.
B - That's what I have been saying all along.....messengers DO fall down
and it is up to us to look and listen within to have God guide us to what
is the right message.....

I am glad to be able to agree with you about this. Though I don't think
it's as much so as some believe, there is a definite tendency among a
large number of Christians to follow what a lot of other people are
saying. I think this is contrary to scripture, which teaches that the
path is narrow, and that chasing the label "Christian" is not the way to
a relationship with God.

Unfortunately, it is also very easy for human beings to deceive
themselves. It is for that reason that God also commanded through the
apostles and their letters that Christians keep watch for each other.
The Church is asked to become a community in which faults are challenged
and corrected, rather than allowed to continue. We can misinterpret our
own prejudices and rationalizations as the voice of God, and there is
danger there if there is no community of Christians to correct such an
error.

Both of these failings originate in pride. There is a pride that makes
one want to belong to a group, and be thought of well within it, more
than to follow God. There is another pride that makes one proud to be a
maverick, to feel above the masses who are misled by their traditions
and unable to think for themselves. Both are pride. We are closest to
God when we approach our faith with humility, recognizing both that we
are not better than the Church and have much to learn from it; and also
that we share a humanity, and therefore an imperfection, with the Church
as well and should not idolize the Church in God's place. I fear most
of us -- at least I, myself -- have only a fleeting aquaintance with
that kind of humility, and that it comes and goes too quickly.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by l***@hotmail.com
Again, you display an pantheistic application of truth. That school is
both humanistic and relativistic. You have NO sure standard of Truth.

B - and it is so easy to simply slap a label on another person and then to
write them off as "one of those" than to try and understand them? I've
done it myself and try not to...I find it a lazy way to converse.

You also have no sure standard of truth or you would not be here arguing I
surmise. Your feelings come into why you feel you must trust the Bible as
the total word
of God as well...you "feel" you have to believe it to get to heaven..so
you force yourself to make it work...force yourself due to your feelings
to make it all work. If you were never told that you might die in Hell if
you don't read the Bible and try to understand it...you probably would
never have picked up the book in the first place.
Your feelings are all over the place....it's not just me my friend.


Just an observation.

Bren

[Carol]

Post by l***@hotmail.com
It's not that simple. "feeling" what the Word of God is speaking to us
is not the basis of interpretation.

And yet the scriptures say within themselves that they only point the
way to salvation, that they are NOT the final authority and that God
lives and speaks to His people. How do you account for that?

Isn't it written, "The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God."? Is
that the bible?

Isn't it written, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with
God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing
made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of
men." Is that the bible?

I say there is much more to God than a book and that a book has no
power to create the universe or to save men. We must know God. I'm not
talking about a feeling though, nothing vague about God, I'm talking
about the living God whom Abraham knows and whom the whole bible gives
witness to.

~ Carol

[Proshome]

Dear bimms:
I'm sure we have made attempts at communicating in these past few years,
minus the past year or so, and I'm glad to hear that you are moving on to
higher grounds. However, in light of your remark regarding evolution,
before you go, have a look at my homepage, click on the cop and then choose
"evolution vs creation". I don't pretend to have all the answers but your
"hideously evil" remark struck me. Therefore, read what I have to offer
before you embark on that war against that particular theory. I hope that
it will help you on your behalf. Go to
http://digilander.libero.it/Berniepros/
--
simply "Christian"

Post by b***@juno.com
I have been posting here for a couple of years. After our recent
election, I have come to realize that posting my defenses of
Christianity here is not very useful.

...

Post by b***@juno.com
We need to stop preaching to the choir, and directly engage the forces
of evil.

...

Post by b***@juno.com
I will wage an all out assault on the theory of evolution, which I
consider hideously evil. Join me, my friends! It will be great fun!