Discussion:
Aldous Huxley's _Point Counter Point_
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j***@go.com
2006-08-09 03:42:08 UTC
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I just finished reading Aldous Huxley's novel _Point Counter Point_.
It contains some most interesting commentary about Christianity.

I'll start off with a cynical comment by the character Spandrell:
"How do you know that the earth isn't some other planet's hell?"

But most of the juiciest comments are made by the character Mark
Rampion,
said to be based on D.H. Lawrence. Some samples follow.

The first sample well describes 2006 American right-wing evangelicals.
Not bad for a novel written in Britain in 1928.

"The world's full of ridiculous God-snobs. People who aren't really
alive, who've never done any vital act, who aren't in any living
relation with anything; people who haven't the slightest personal
or practical knowledge of what God is. But they moo away in
churches, they coo over their prayers, they pervert and destroy
their whole dismal existences by acting in accordance with the
will of an arbitrarily imagined abstraction which they choose
to call God. Just a pack of God-snobs...grotesque and
contemptible.... But nobody has the sense to say so.
The God-snobs are admired for being so good and pious
and Christian. When they're merely dead and ought to be
having their bottoms kicked and their noses tweaked to
make them sit up and come to life."

The following echoes a comment I devised years before
I read the book...of course, that was still decades after
Huxley wrote it:

"Telling [people] to obey Jesus is telling them to be
more than human. And, in practice, trying to be more
than human always means succeeding in being less
than human. Telling [people] to obey Jesus
literally is telling them, indirectly, to behave like
idiots and, finally, like devils."

As an example, Rampion excoriates no less than
St. Francis of Assisi, as follows:

"Just a little stink-pot.... A silly, vain little man
trying to blow himself up into a Jesus and only
succeeding in killing whatever sense or decency
there was in him, only succeeding in turning
himself into the nasty smelly fragments of a
real human being. Going about getting thrills
of excitement out of licking lepers! Ugh! The
disgusting little pervert! He thinks himself
too good to kiss a woman; he wants to be
above anything so vulgar as natural, healthy
pleasure, and the only result is that he kills
whatever core of human decency he ever had
and becomes a smelly little pervert who can
only get a thrill out of licking lepers' ulcers.
Not curing the lepers, mind you. Just licking
them. For his own amusement. Not theirs.
It's revolting!"

Read the whole book. You may look at a
lot of things differently afterwards.
zach
2006-08-10 03:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@go.com
I just finished reading Aldous Huxley's novel _Point Counter Point_.
It contains some most interesting commentary about Christianity.
<snip>
Post by j***@go.com
The following echoes a comment I devised years before
I read the book...of course, that was still decades after
"Telling [people] to obey Jesus is telling them to be
more than human. And, in practice, trying to be more
than human always means succeeding in being less
than human. Telling [people] to obey Jesus
literally is telling them, indirectly, to behave like
idiots and, finally, like devils."
So Jeffrey, what are we supposed to do? Maybe
whatever we please to do? What is "right" in our
own eyes? Please enlighten.
Post by j***@go.com
As an example, Rampion excoriates no less than
"Just a little stink-pot.... A silly, vain little man
trying to blow himself up into a Jesus and only
succeeding in killing whatever sense or decency
there was in him, only succeeding in turning
himself into the nasty smelly fragments of a
real human being. Going about getting thrills
of excitement out of licking lepers! Ugh! The
disgusting little pervert! He thinks himself
too good to kiss a woman; he wants to be
above anything so vulgar as natural, healthy
pleasure,
Yes, one often hears such things from alcoholics,
drug addicts, and people who utilize prostitues
("what, too GOOD to engage in a little debauchery?
You're such a prude!").
If I went around life worrying what people thought of
me, whether pseudo-religious types, or heathens, I
would have gone insane a long time ago.
Post by j***@go.com
Read the whole book. You may look at a
lot of things differently afterwards.
Jesus' intellectual contemporaries excoriated him, too,
figuratively, and literally. Surely, based upon what you've
read in the Bible, you wouldn't say Jesus was the sort
of "devil" you describe? If not, then are you suggesting he
should have been worried about what all sorts of people
said about him, when he knew what he was doing was right?
Besides, it is the _Left-wing_ Christians (which I've yet to
see you accuse) who say they are all about following Jesus'
example, caring for the poor, being kind and humble, etc., so if
_they_ are the ones "obeying Jesus" then isn't your tirade
misplaced?
Matthew Johnson
2006-08-10 03:26:41 UTC
Permalink
In article <kQcCg.8704$***@trnddc05>, ***@go.com says...

[snip]
Post by j***@go.com
Read the whole book.
Better yet, don't even pick it up.
Post by j***@go.com
You may look at a
lot of things differently afterwards.
Then again,you might not. You might just get extremely disgusted with it
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Jeff Caird
2006-08-10 03:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@go.com
I just finished reading Aldous Huxley's novel _Point Counter Point_.
It contains some most interesting commentary about Christianity.
Who really cares what that acid-dropping, vegetarian, mystical
proto-hippie thinks about Christianity? The damage caused by
him and his friend Tim Leary to members of the baby boom
generation and society in general condemn him. Yes, I read
much of his garbage in the sixties, much to my regret. It
took years to get my head straight. Don't waste your time.
B.G. Kent
2006-08-11 03:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Caird
Who really cares what that acid-dropping, vegetarian, mystical
proto-hippie thinks about Christianity? The damage caused by
B- everyone has their say, their bit of info, their take and their
sacredness. Don't blame your inability to deflect others ways on them. A
book is a book is a book...try a little detachment.

Bren

ps. what is wrong with being vegetarian or hippie ? I've not been damaged
by him or Tim Leary and I am of the BB generation...yes JUST near the end
of it but still I have not been damaged by it. I appreciate a bit of
counter-culture once in awhile to remind myself that we still live in
relatively free countries.
j***@go.com
2006-08-16 03:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
[quoting Huxley]
"... And, in practice, trying to be more
than human always means succeeding in being less
than human. Telling [people] to obey Jesus
literally is telling them, indirectly, to behave like
idiots and, finally, like devils."
So Jeffrey, what are we supposed to do? Maybe
whatever we please to do? What is "right" in our
own eyes? Please enlighten.
It was years before I read that book that I
remarked to a friend (though in regards to
my own actions, not hers), "Try to be
superhuman, and you end up subhuman."

Trying to obey Jesus is a good way to drive
yourself nuts. And, according to the New
Testament, it's the wrong approach:

(I'm on a slow connection, so I'm not
going to look up the citations on line,
but you should recognize them.)

Paul wrote (I think late in I Corinthians)
that he had worked harder than anyone
else, yet not himself, but Christ in him.
So he didn't bust his tail to obey Jesus;
like Topsy, his obedience "just growed."
[See _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ by
Harriet Beecher Stowe if you're
unfamiliar with that allusion. -- jjs]

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God
was like this: A man plants a field,
and it grows by itself. (That's in
Mark, I think.) That should be the
biggest relief of all to Christians,
that you don't have to pull yourself
up; you just grow.

And Jesus also said "Make a tree good,
and its fruit will be good." (That's
probably in more than one of the
Synoptic Gospels.) So it's not a
matter of knocking yourself out trying
to do good. The question is whether
you *are* good inside, in which case
good actions will follow automatically.
Post by zach
"[St. Francis] thinks himself
too good to kiss a woman; he wants to be
above anything so vulgar as natural, healthy
pleasure,
Yes, one often hears such things from alcoholics,
drug addicts, and people who utilize prostitues
("what, too GOOD to engage in a little debauchery?
You're such a prude!").
"Kissing a woman" isn't necessarily debauchery.
You've just strongly suggested that you are indeed
a prude, if you consider a normal, healthy, happy
relationship with a woman to be "debauchery".
No one (not I, not Huxley) is claiming that
alcoholism et al. are "natural, healthy pleasures".
His comment was that eschewing actual natural,
healthy pleasures (which, though he didn't say
this, were, you would say, created by God,
n'est-ce pas?) in favor of getting ecstasy from
licking lepers is INSANE.
Post by zach
If I went around life worrying what people thought of
me, whether pseudo-religious types, or heathens, I
would have gone insane a long time ago.
If you go around worrying about what Jesus thinks
of you, you'll also go insane; that's Huxley's point.
Post by zach
Jesus' intellectual contemporaries excoriated him, too,
figuratively, and literally.
I think Huxley, and a great many other critics of
modern Christianity, excoriate Christians and the
Church for *not* living up to the ideals preached
by Jesus.
Post by zach
Surely, based upon what you've
read in the Bible, you wouldn't say Jesus was the sort
of "devil" you describe?
Well, Jesus did have a short fuse ("How long must
I put up with you?", plus foolishly cursing the fig tree
when it was the wrong season for figs). And, as I've
written before, he walked through a crowd of sick
people, healed one, and left the rest sick; if you'd
been one of the sick people there at Bethesda Pool
on that occasion, you'd have gotten yourself to
Pilate's judgment seat by any means possible
to yell "Crucify him!"

Anyway, you need to argue more carefully.
Huxley didn't call Jesus a devil; he merely
said that trying to obey Him is likely to
turn an ordinary human being into a devil.
Post by zach
If not, then are you suggesting he
should have been worried about what all sorts of people
said about him, when he knew what he was doing was right?
Again, misplaced arguing. You conservative
Christians seem to think that you're as
certain as Jesus was that what you're
doing is right, and since you're just
imperfect human beings, you, like the
ancient Israelites whom the prophets
excoriated, stand a good chance of
being wrong about that. I've said it
before, and I say it again: the prophet
whom America most needs to hear is
Amos; so many American Christians
are, as Amos said, "at ease in Zion."
Post by zach
Besides, it is the _Left-wing_ Christians (which I've yet to
see you accuse) who say they are all about following Jesus'
example, caring for the poor, being kind and humble, etc., so if
_they_ are the ones "obeying Jesus" then isn't your tirade
misplaced?
1) What tirade? Or if it was a tirade, note
that I was just quoting Huxley, not ranting
on my own.
2) I believe the point was that *trying* to obey
Jesus will send you over the edge.
3) Maybe the left-wing, Sojourners-style
Christians don't have to try; they just
are good people. Have you ever
deigned to meet any?

(me, in previous article:)
Post by zach
Read the whole book. You may look at a
lot of things differently afterwards.
For that matter, read Nietzsche's
_The Anti-Christ_, which he ends by
saying that Christianity is the worst
thing that ever happened to humanity.

Your reply, and those of others not quoted here,
suggests that many Christians, especially
conservative ones, are not very secure, that
they dare not read something that would risk
dislodging the shaky prop of their faith -- or
pseudo-faith, imagined faith -- and that they
don't want to think. Two quotes apply here:

1) Jesus said, "When the Son of Man comes,
will he find faith on the earth?" I'm not sure
he will, no matter how full the megachurches.

2) Ayn Rand (through one of her characters
in _Atlas Shrugged_) said, "There are no
evil thoughts except one: the refusal
to think."

-- Jeffrey J. Sargent, ***@go.com
Simple Simon
2006-08-21 01:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@go.com
I just finished reading Aldous Huxley's novel _Point Counter Point_.
It contains some most interesting commentary about Christianity.
"How do you know that the earth isn't some other planet's hell?"
It may be. There's only one way to find out. You first.
Post by j***@go.com
But most of the juiciest comments are made by the character Mark
Rampion, said to be based on D.H. Lawrence. Some samples follow.
The first sample well describes 2006 American right-wing evangelicals.
Not bad for a novel written in Britain in 1928.
"The world's full of ridiculous God-snobs.
[...snip...]
Classic ad hominem: The believer is flawed, therefore what they
believe is flawed. Aldous would have been trounced by Thomas for
showing such poor reasoning -- and in print, no less.
--
One nation, under surveillance.
Simple Simon
2006-08-21 01:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Caird
Post by j***@go.com
I just finished reading Aldous Huxley's novel _Point Counter Point_.
It contains some most interesting commentary about Christianity.
Who really cares what that acid-dropping, vegetarian, mystical
proto-hippie thinks about Christianity?
Quite the ad hominem!

Aldous Huxley wrote one of the best books on technological tyranny
ever (which is: Brave New World). He deserves regard for that work.

That said, Huxley's comments on Christianity seem informed by a very
great ignorance of it, combined with a predisposition against it--
much like the original poster (***@go.com), unsurprisingly.

There is no argument with a person who misrepresents the meaning of a
passage, and then inflexibly asserts that misrepresentation as the
basis for their argument. Their motivation is not to learn, but to
attack Christianity.

"Come, let us leave such asses to their meadow." - Rumi
--
One nation, under surveillance.
j***@go.com
2006-08-22 02:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Simple Simon wrote:

<snip>
... Huxley's comments on Christianity seem informed by a very
great ignorance of it, combined with a predisposition against it--
Perhaps you weren't around this group not many years ago,
when I was writing about why I had left Christianity. I hardly
have "great ignorance" of Christianity, having seen a great
deal of it; but it left me with what you might call a
"post-disposition" against it, considering how grossly
many who claim to be followers of Christ (especially on
the right wing) miss His point, and how disappointingly
uncaring and utterly indifferent God has demonstrated
Himself to be. And, from my own experience, I have to say
that trying to obey Jesus DOES drive you nuts! -- especially
if you fail, and there's no sign of God's forgiveness no
matter how much you confess your sins.

<snip>
One nation, under surveillance.
That's a good one. It's nice that not all Christians
give the government a free pass just because its
current head thinks he's a Christian.

-- Jeffrey J. Sargent, ***@go.com
b***@juno.com
2006-08-23 03:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@go.com
Himself to be. And, from my own experience, I have to say
that trying to obey Jesus DOES drive you nuts! -- especially
if you fail, and there's no sign of God's forgiveness no
matter how much you confess your sins.
You sound like Samuel Johnson, the great literary giant. When he tried
to follow Christ, I think he felt the same way you did. Late in his
life, he was terrified of God's judgment, and did penance like standing
in the street in the rain for hours, to try and atone for his childhood
sins.

One of Johnson's contemporaries said about Johnson, that he "did not
seem to realize the merits of his Redeemer."

Seems like you might have had the same problem back when you were
Christian. You appear to have suffered under a legalistic, prudish
vesion of Christianity........ one that did not take into account the
merits of your Redeemer.

True Christianity is lived only when we realize the true merits of our
Redeemer. His merits have set us free from all sin as well as all lists
of rules. We throw away the shackles of rule-based Christianity, and
are free simply to love God and man. Maybe you should try it.
Simple Simon
2006-08-23 03:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
<snip>
... Huxley's comments on Christianity seem informed by a very
great ignorance of it, combined with a predisposition against it--
Perhaps you weren't around this group not many years ago,
when I was writing about why I had left Christianity.
Yes, I was around. The stuff about you not getting a job you wanted.
Post by zach
I hardly
have "great ignorance" of Christianity
I very strongly disagree.
Post by zach
One nation, under surveillance.
That's a good one. It's nice that not all Christians
give the government a free pass just because its
current head thinks he's a Christian.
--
One nation, under surveillance.
zach
2006-08-24 00:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simple Simon
Post by zach
<snip>
... Huxley's comments on Christianity seem informed by a very
great ignorance of it, combined with a predisposition against it--
Perhaps you weren't around this group not many years ago,
when I was writing about why I had left Christianity.
Yes, I was around. The stuff about you not getting a job you wanted.
And Jeffrey's position that if God really loved him, then he would win
the lottery, for example. So I personally view his criticism of his
former faith as rooted in something deeper in his heart to which he
succumbed.

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