Discussion:
Science and that Ole Time Religion
(too old to reply)
* irenic *
2006-11-06 02:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Nov. 5, 2006



Religion and Science



By Harry T. Cook



Essays appearing on this website from time to time have excoriated the
Religious Right, and in particular its rejection of science in the making of
public policy. The purpose of this essay is to account for its history and
why it must be confronted in defense of science.



As New England emptied out in the 1830s and 1840s and Americans began
to migrate into the new Northwest Territories and the land associated with
the Louisiana Purchase, people left behind their cultural and religious
institutions and ended up in a Little House on the Prairie kind of
situation. Their one-room schools were staffed by the unmarried daughters of
area farmers, who had themselves been educated in the same kinds of schools
by other unmarried daughters in the rudimentary RRRs.



The other stimulus that interrupted the spirit-crushing routine of
crop farming and animal husbandry was twice-a-Sunday attendance at the
little church on the prairie, the minister of which was likely to be some
uneducated opportunist whose only book was a Bible. The results were
predictable.



The farming families heard the old, old story with minimal variation
every Sunday, and the kids learned the three R s. But when the railroad
arrived bringing culture, and when secondary education became more the norm,
adolescents began to study Latin and even Greek and to read history and
literature. Land-grant universities and church-sponsored four-year colleges
sprang up, and some of those who finished the high-school course went on to
them. When they came home for the holidays, they had plenty to tell their
hard-working parents about how out of date their preachers were, and about
the wider world of knowledge to which they were being exposed.



When the kids began to rebel against the repetitive
hell-fire-and-damnation preaching, their under-educated parents went into a
defensive crouch and decided that the old, old story or that Ole Time
Religion was good enough for them, and therewith entrenched fundamentalism
dug in.



Fundamentalism found a willing partner in populist prairie politics
which pitted the hard-scrabble farmer against the railroad and other inroads
of modernism. The religion and the politics fed off one another.



It was one thing for the prairie farmer to hold science at bay when
his water was pumped out of his well by a wind-mill and when his nighttime
illumination was a kerosene lamp and when he was not dependent on a
physician or dentist for health care when, in other words, he was (or
thought he was) self-sufficient. But as society became more urbanized and
modern hygiene and medicine began to conquer the spread of disease,
welcoming science and its works became more attractive.



That at some level entailed the acceptance of Darwin s Theory of
Natural Selection (evolution) and all that flowed from it. Meanwhile, the
prairie preacher was still immured in Genesis and pronounced science and
scientists the enemies of God and good. That presented the farmer even the
partly urbanized one with the awful choice of embracing science and
denying his religion, or resisting science and continuing to embrace his
religion. The Scopes trial in 1925 and all the fuss around it graphically
illustrated that dilemma. So more or less has it gone since then.



The resistance to teaching real science (as in evolution) in public
schools, which obtains in all too many places to this day, poses a danger
not only to the intellectual capital of this nation but to its economic
well-being. In a global economy, investment capital will go to those venues
in which excellence in education is prized.



Science (the word comes from the Latin for knowledge ) is the
intellectual discipline of exploring the natural order for information about
how it works and why. The scientist looks out upon what ever portion of the
natural order which interests him or her, and then begins to gather and
examine relevant pieces of information from it, tries to see how they make
sense together. The scientist sets forth a hypothesis (the idea that
such-and-such a thing may be true) and then, with the information in hand,
goes on to gather even more information. S/he contrives experiments to test
the hypothesis, not in order to prove it but to disprove it.



If the hypothesis holds up after exhaustive testing, and if the
results of the experiments have grown thereby more self-evident, the
scientist has produced a theory. A theory becomes the best available
explanation as to why something or another seems to be true. Other research
and development is based upon that theory, often resulting in its
refinement, improvement or even in its discarding for another theory.



Science is as close to objective pursuit of truth as one can get. The
true scientist tries never to assume something is true without going through
the process accounted for in the preceding paragraph. There is nothing a
scientist loves better than to be able to falsify or disprove his own (or
preferably another scientist s) hypothesis. Science is competitive in a way
similar to the free market. The guy who works hard to build the best
mousetrap for the best price sells more mousetraps. The scientist who labors
in the laboratory to discover the truth about a thing is the one who wins
the grant to do even more research. In either case, the consumer is the
winner.



There can be no substitute for science in the modern world. That is
why it must be defended against those forces that would de-value and debase
it. Neither creationism nor intelligent design qualifies as science because
both begin with an abstract religious doctrine and then cherry-pick and
arrange data to prove its validity. Those who oppose stem-cell research on
the basis that it violates religious law can neither be taken seriously nor
be allowed to interfere with scientists engaged in such research for the
purpose of improving human health and the prolonging of useful and enjoyable
life.




Copyright 2006, Harry T. Cook. All rights reserved. This article may
not be used or reproduced without proper credit.

http://www.harrytcook.com/essay.html



-- --

Shalom! Rowland Croucher

'It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so' (Mark Twain)

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ - 18,200 articles/ 4000 humour
Burkladies
2006-11-07 02:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Seems that right wingers are falling out like a plague. Nature takes
out the liers in the end. These people create hate and weave their
Jebus and Jehovah into their beliefs. Then call this truth. Christ is
the truth.

Blessed be, Lady
Post by * irenic *
Nov. 5, 2006
Religion and Science
By Harry T. Cook
Essays appearing on this website from time to time have excoriated the
Religious Right, and in particular its rejection of science in the making of
public policy. The purpose of this essay is to account for its history and
why it must be confronted in defense of science.
...
Post by * irenic *
-- --
Shalom! Rowland Croucher
Matthew Johnson
2006-11-07 02:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by * irenic *
Nov. 5, 2006
Religion and Science
By Harry T. Cook
Essays appearing on this website from time to time have excoriated the
Religious Right, and in particular its rejection of science in the making of
public policy. The purpose of this essay is to account for its history and
why it must be confronted in defense of science.
And that purpose is largely achieved. But there is one glaring omission: in his
historical survey of the tension between simple (if crypto-monophysite) believer
and scientist, Cook has _completely_ omitted to mention how virulently
anti-religious folk took advantage of this to preach atheism. But the result of
this has been to deepen the divide and encourage a mindless polarization among
educated people, people whose education really gives them reason to know better,
yet they accept the polarization anyway. This "mindless polarization" I refer to
is that between belief and science. For as the posts in this NG make all too
clear, there are a great many educated people who still believe that all belief,
all religion, is intrinsically opposed to real knowledge.

As long as this belief persists unchallenged, Cook's essay can achieve very
little. Cook's essay mentions it, but still leaves it unchallenged.

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Paul
2006-11-08 01:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Wow. This essay contains so many false or misleading statements that it's
hard to know just where to begin -- and I fear I don't have time to respond
to all of them (which may not be a disappointment to some.... ;-) Anyway,
I'll trim freely to limit the length of the response, but don't presume that
the responses are SOLELY to the untrimmed parts -- it's to the overall
thought around the words that are left in..
Post by * irenic *
Religion and Science
By Harry T. Cook
As New England emptied out in the 1830s and 1840s and Americans began
to migrate into the new Northwest Territories and the land associated with
the Louisiana Purchase,
Well, New England didn't "empty out" in the 1830s/40s (or any other time).
While there was a western movement, New England remained a center of
population in the expanding United States. And, in point of fact, many of
the folks who went to "the West" were immigrants who had no particular
connection with New England (or any other part of America)....
Post by * irenic *
people left behind their cultural and religious
institutions
....and most of the ones who DID migrate westward did NOT "leave behind their
cultural and religious institutions". Read a good social/cultural history
of the United States. Folks who were Congregationalists in New England set
up Congregational churches in Kentucky or wherever (and so on, including the
folks who didn't come from New England -- Swedes established Lutheran
churches in Minnesota, ....). Yes, there were 'non-established' churches,
but many if not all of these were driven by revivals that most definitely
included city folk. The great revival of the late 1850's, for example,
began in New York City and spread mostly by jumping from city to city.
Similarly with other aspects of culture -- there was a robust 'frontier'
mentality, but there was also a respect, even a hunger for 'news from the
East' because people recognized the absence of music, theater, libraries,
etc. As a result, most areas hurried to REinstitute those things as fast as
they could manage. In short, the whole dialectic that Mr Cook is trying to
set up is way too simplistic -- real history is more nuanced. (Hmm, that's
sort of a SCIENTIFIC approach to history. Oh, wow -- irony!)
Post by * irenic *
and ended up in a Little House on the Prairie kind of
situation.
Meanwhile, the population movement during the 19th century was actually
TOWARD rather than AWAY from cities. Although the West was being 'won' (not
sure why it was 'lost' to start with, but whatever), the population was
becoming increasingly urban until by the 1910 census (or 1900, I forget
which), the nation was more than 50% urban. To be sure this did result in
cultural stresses between the urbanizing and remaining rural sections, but
Little House on the Prairie is at best a skewed and idealized way of
interpreting them.
Post by * irenic *
But when the railroad
arrived bringing culture,
The railroad generally didn't trail migration by anywhere near as much as
this scenario presumes. In fact, often the railroad was what DROVE
settlement of an area.... (This is because from the very beginning, most
farmers took most of their crops and produce to MARKET, not to feed their
own families, and markets require transportation....)
Post by * irenic *
their under-educated parents went into a
defensive crouch and decided that the old, old story or that Ole Time
Religion was good enough for them, and therewith entrenched fundamentalism
dug in.
Except that fundamentalism really didn't arise until the 20th century. And
that it was driven by some very educated people -- the debate between
fundamentalism and modernism in the Church was conducted mainly in
seminaries and universities.
Post by * irenic *
Fundamentalism found a willing partner in populist prairie politics
which pitted the hard-scrabble farmer against the railroad and other inroads
of modernism. The religion and the politics fed off one another.
Finally, we have a reasonably accurate short summary of ONE effect of
modernization! It's a bit late, but ....

<major snip of further overly-generalized history, as well as explanation of
scientific method>
Post by * irenic *
There can be no substitute for science in the modern world. That is
why it must be defended against those forces that would de-value and debase
it. Neither creationism nor intelligent design qualifies as science because
both begin with an abstract religious doctrine and then cherry-pick and
arrange data to prove its validity.
MAJOR JUMP WARNING! :->
Post by * irenic *
Those who oppose stem-cell research on
the basis that it violates religious law can neither be taken seriously nor
be allowed to interfere with scientists engaged in such research for the
purpose of improving human health and the prolonging of useful and enjoyable
life.
Whoa! All this biased and over-generalized historical mush was leading up
to something about stem-cell research???? Merciful heavens, there's loads
of SECULAR SCIENTISTS who struggle with the ethical implications of
stem-cell research! It's far -- FAR -- from a foregone conclusion that just
because the research may improve human health and prolong life, that it
should not be questioned for moral or ethical reasons. Good grief, if we
want to go that route, read about some of the medical research done by the
Nazis -- they used exactly this argument to try to justify torturing and
mistreating Jews, gypsies and others they wanted to marginalize!

If we want to argue about stem-cell research, then bring it on -- but let's
do it without the pablum about how terrible "old time religion" is. Let's
do it on the basis of what actually is -- and is not -- done in stem-cell
research, and the ethics thereof. Leave the ad hominem attacks out of it!

Sheesh.

Note -- none of the above is to take any particular stance for or against
stem-cell research. But, regardless of one's position on that issue, the
final sentence in Mr Cook's essay is NOT a constructive approach to the
subject; nor is it supported by the rest of the essay.

Beam me up, Scotty, we're done here. :-)

In Christ,
Paul
r***@yahoo.com
2006-11-10 03:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by * irenic *
Nov. 5, 2006
Religion and Science
By Harry T. Cook
Science (the word comes from the Latin for knowledge) is the
intellectual discipline of exploring the natural order for information about
how it works and why.
And it's great for exploring the natural order. It gets really
tangled though in dealing with the metaphysical.
Post by * irenic *
Science is as close to objective pursuit of truth as one can get. The
true scientist tries never to assume something is true without going through
the process accounted for in the preceding paragraph.
Many of those that embrace science in this way also adopt uncritically
a philosophical position of naturalism- holding that reality is
exhausted by the physical world.
Science is fabulous for studying the physical realm, but anyone who
thinks scientists don't come to the table with presuppositions needs
some more education. It is simply false to say "science is as close
to objective pursuit of truth as one can get". Philosophy MUST be the
handmaid of science or we end up with a distortion.
Science presupposes metaphysical and philosophical doctrines, therefore
those things are conceptually prior to science and not vice versa.
Post by * irenic *
There can be no substitute for science in the modern world. That is
why it must be defended against those forces that would de-value and debase
it. Neither creationism nor intelligent design qualifies as science because
both begin with an abstract religious doctrine and then cherry-pick and
arrange data to prove its validity.
Even though there have been a good many Christians that have forsaken
science in the mistaken belief that it is somehow opposed to
Christianity, one would expect Mr. Cooke to have been a little more
thorough in his own approach to the subject. After all he is a
scientist and purports to study things thoroughly. That he paints such
a stark science vs. religion picture, I can only assume he hasn't
recognized his own religious tendencies. He has accepted uncritically
that his position is correct. Should we be appalled that one
proclaiming careful study has in fact neglected to study his own
position?
Too often skeptics heralding "science" and "logic" are not so
adept at using the words in their arguments as they are in their
dialog.
Gordon
2006-11-11 04:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by * irenic *
Nov. 5, 2006
Religion and Science
By Harry T. Cook
Science (the word comes from the Latin for knowledge) is the
intellectual discipline of exploring the natural order for information about
how it works and why.
And it's great for exploring the natural order. It gets really
tangled though in dealing with the metaphysical.
It gets really tangled at the quantum physics level...quantum
entanglements are quite beyond anyone's full understanding.

How can one photon pass through two slits in a diffraction
grating?

How can a particle of mass, here on Earth interact
gravitationally with every other particle of mass in the
multiverse? What is the "go-between?"

If one measures a quantum particle's momentum, its position can
not be known. It could be anywhere in the universe.

Why must we conclude that the spiritual realm is entirely
separated from the physical? We don't understand the physical
realm nearly well enough to justify such a conclusion.

Gordon
B.G. Kent
2006-11-13 02:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gordon
Why must we conclude that the spiritual realm is entirely
separated from the physical? We don't understand the physical
realm nearly well enough to justify such a conclusion.
Gordon
B - Yes indeedy! I agree. Who is to also say that within each particle in
the particle and wave relationship...there is not another universe?

;)

Blessings
Bren
Rodney Dunning
2006-11-13 02:06:18 UTC
Permalink
I don't want to respond specifically to any of the posts made in this
thread, only to comment generally on how scientists who are Christians
approach their jobs and their faith. I will have to abbreviate my
thoughts to keep the post reasonably short.

Someone has remarked that scientists have presuppositions. We
certainly do. For Christians, an important presupposition is that the
universe is a contingent reality, reflecting the grace, beauty, and
intelligence of its creator: the "Vestigia Dei," the fingerprint of
God. But this presupposition is special: it does not drive the way we
reason about physical law or how we interpret data. It does not mean
we invoke God as an explanation in any theory or model; we never do
this. It does not mean we seek to prove the existence of God through
science, or that we conclude a given outcome or pattern of facts could
be so only if God exists. It is not Intelligent Design. It does not
mean that we constrain our imaginations vis-a-vis the development of
new theories or models in an effort to remain faithful to existing
doctrines; we never do this. If, in an act of faith (and, to some
extent, worship), we chose to interpret scientific findings to reflect
the intelligence and power of God, we never allow such interpretations
to become constraints on the further questions we can ask or the
answers we might get.

Our presupposition about God and the universe is not beyond reproach.
We must be willing, if asked, to allow our faith to be subjected to
scientific reasoning if possible. We are ever mindful that our belief
in God is an act of faith. We might be wrong.

To presuppose the universe is a contingent reality is to adopt a state
of mind in which we recognize that answers about the universe gleaned
through the scientific method are, in effect, coming from God. This
doesn't mean we believe we are receiving a literal communication from
God. Instead, we believe the universe can be explained as though God
were not given--that is, as though God did not exist. This is not an
insult to God. Indeed, it is the highest form of praise many of us can
conceive: that God has created something so wonderfully self-contained
that a functional understanding of how it works need never refer back
to God.

The examination of such a universe demands humility. In that spirit of
humility, we value the contributions of other scientists regardless of
their religious beliefs. We (all scientists) recognize that our
theories and models are always tentative, and may be altered when new
data is gathered, or when more extensive theories are developed. We
also adopt a non-negotiable policy of absolute honesty that goes far
beyond not fudging experimental data. Since the universe is a
reflection of God (assumption), altering or misrepresenting the truth
of the universe to fit with other beliefs, such as religious beliefs,
is a form of blasphemy, not to mention an act of simple dishonesty.

For many Christians, their encounter with the biblical text or received
tradition plays a similar role. Altering the perceived truth of a
biblical text to fit a scientific model or theory is, for them, a form
of blasphemy. But Christian scientists generally believe we are free to
approach the Bible from a variety of perspectives. A literal,
journalistic interpretation of Genesis 1, for example, is simply not
required by religious doctrine or the constraints of rational thinking.
That's not to say such an interpretation is necessarily wrong because
it isn't required. Instead, we make an appeal to recognize the
difference between the choice to read the Bible a certain way and the
constraints imposed on our thinking by the rules of logic and the
experimental facts gathered through scientific research. Seen in this
light, science does not trump religious belief. It merely provides, in
some cases, concrete boundaries within which we must search for
religious truth.

--
Rodney Dunning
Assistant Professor of Physics
Longwood University
http://www.longwood.edu/staff/dunningrb

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