The Bible

[b***@allvantage.com]

Re: The Bible

Now do you understand the charge here? I'm not asking you to prove
that God actually is however you believe him to be, I'm saying he
can't possibly be what you are saying because it is absurd. It
inherently contradicts itself.

B - Okay. :) everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Blessings
Bren

What? That Jesus Christ is God? This is true. Read John 20:27-28,
Matthew 27:54, I John 5:7, Isaiah 44:24, Matthew 27:54, Isaiah 44:8,
Revelations 1:8.

Hello,

According to the Bible, Jesus cannot possible be God because the Bible
tells us that Jesus was a created being, whereas God always existed.

Jesus created: Col 1:15,

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

God always existed: Ps 90:2,

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the
world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (NIV)

Also notice from that last one, that God never died, and never will.
But Jesus did die and was buried. (see 1 Co 15:3)

I would be happy to discuss your Scriptures mentioned above. To keep
this email from getting to long, I will just comment on one of them
here, but will discuss all of them one at a time if you so choose to do
so through email.

Concerning your 1 Jo 5:7 one, when we go to the oldest Greek
manuscripts and look at that passage, we don't find those words there.
(remember, concerning Bible manuscripts, generally the older the
better, since they are closer to the original)

Even some of those who used to support that passage have now
acknowledged that it is spurious. For example the Catholic Jerusalem
Bible explains in a footnote:

"The words in italics [in heaven: the Father the Word and the Spirit,
and these three are one; and there are three witnesses on earth:] (not
in any of the early Greek MSS, or any of the early translations, or in
the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself) are probably a gloss that has
crept into the text."

It was added, no doubt, to try to support the Trinity. It was a nice
try, but now we have older Bible MSS that shows that it never really
existed in them.

This addition, known technically as the "Johannine Comma," was
protected by the Vatican until 1927, in spite of the fact that even
some Catholic scholars had raised doubts about its authenticity as
early as the sixth century.

In the work "A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament", by Bruce
Metzger (1975, pp. 716-718), it traces in detail the history of the
spurious passage. It states that the passage is first found in a
treatise entitled "Liber Apologeticus", of the fourth century, and that
it appears in Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts of the Scriptures,
beginning in the sixth century.

But we now have good 4th century copies such as the Codex Vaticanus
1209 and Codex Sinaiticus. And also the 5th century Alexandrine. That
wording is not found in those. (At last check, the Codex Vaaticanus is
presently at the Rome Vatican Library. The Codex Sinaiticus is at the
London British Museum, as well as the Alexandrine.)

Thus you will find most modern Bibles not agreeing with the 17th
century KJV of 1 Jo 5:7. For example:
(some list the passage as vs 7,8 or vs 8, instead of just vs 7)

NIV: "7. For there are three that testify:
8. the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in
agreement."

NASB: "8. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the
water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

RSV: "8. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the
blood; and these three agree."

Thus a person desiring accuracy from the Bible would have to keep in
mind the errors of the old KJV Bible, such as this one at 1 Jo 5:7.


Sincerely, James


***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************

[zach]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Also notice from that last one, that God never died, and never will.
But Jesus did die and was buried. (see 1 Co 15:3)

John 10:18 (NIV)
17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-only to
take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my
own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up
again.

If Jesus died, then how did he raise himself?

[mark]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

You have a bigger paradox to deal with, for something that is
invisible, has no image, therefore Jesus cannot have been created in
the image of something invisible, as the Bible testifies that Jesus was
most certainly visible......

Again, that dang Bible can be so contradictory and confusing.......

Mark

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by mark

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

You have a bigger paradox to deal with, for something that is
invisible, has no image,

This is not true. Every time you draw a geometric figure to solve a geometry
problem, you are making a visible image of an invisible prototype, the
mathematical object.

Post by mark
therefore Jesus cannot have been created in
the image of something invisible, as the Bible testifies that Jesus was
most certainly visible......

Your premise is false, as shown above. Therefore, your conclusion is worthless.

[mark]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by mark

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

You have a bigger paradox to deal with, for something that is
invisible, has no image,

This is not true. Every time you draw a geometric figure to solve a geometry
problem, you are making a visible image of an invisible prototype, the
mathematical object.

...

And your explanation is stupid. Oh, and worthless as well. One cannot
see something that is invisible, and if you can, then it is not
invisible. It never ceases to amaze how people rationalize, rather than
simply realize.......

Nice try tho, but rather lame.....

Mark

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by mark

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by mark

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

You have a bigger paradox to deal with, for something that is
invisible, has no image,

This is not true. Every time you draw a geometric figure to solve a geometry
problem, you are making a visible image of an invisible prototype, the
mathematical object.

...
And your explanation is stupid.

No, it is your objection that is stupid.

Post by mark
Oh, and worthless as well.

You do find it easy to repeat false and empty claims, don't you?

Post by mark
One cannot see something that is invisible,

Of course not. That is why you draw a visible image of it. Have you
ever _taken_ a class in geometry, Mark? In a _good_ class, this idea
is explained during the first few days of class. Or did you skip those
days?

Post by mark
and if you can, then it is not invisible.

Not true. Again: first day topic in a good geometry class. A 'point'
is an invisible mathematical abstraction. But we make an _image_ of a
point by making a dot with pencil, pen or chalk.

Really, there is nothing so hard to grasp here. Must be your
stubborness that is getting in your way.

Post by mark
It never ceases to amaze how people rationalize, rather than
simply realize.......

It shouldn't amaze you, since you are doing it so much yourself.

Post by mark
Nice try tho, but rather lame.....

Don't be too surprised when you find out that more people find your
response "rather lame".

[n***@hotmail.com]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)
You have a bigger paradox to deal with, for something that is
invisible, has no image,

That's false. God is above logic and mathematics. I recommend you to
read a good Orthodox source, like this one:

http://www2.orthodox.gr/messianicjudaism/theology/trinity.html

It is very clear that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by n***@hotmail.com

Post by b***@allvantage.com
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)
You have a bigger paradox to deal with, for something that is
invisible, has no image,

That's false. God is above logic and mathematics. I recommend you to

You have snipped too much, getting yourself confused. Do you even know who he
was referring to when you said "you have a bigger paradox to deal with"? Do you
even know _what_ paradox he was referring to?

I have to ask these questions, although I am pretty sure the answer to both is
'no'. After all, you got the attribution wrong, _I_ didn't say those words. Mark
did. Yet they show up in your post with only one visible '>', as if I had said
them (since the only name you have of previous posters is in the line, ">Matthew
Johnson wrote:").

Also, you should always mark where you snip. Otherwise people will accuse you of
deliberately changing the meaning of their words by quoting them out of context
-- or worse.

Post by n***@hotmail.com
http://www2.orthodox.gr/messianicjudaism/theology/trinity.html
It is very clear that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

Well, I am glad it is clear to someone! But to many, _many_ Western readers of
the Bible, it is far from clear. One of the great challenges is understanding
why it is not clear to them and bridging that huge gap in understanding.
Khrapovitsky did a good job of explaining why in "Moral'nye Idei Vazhnejshikh
Dogmatov Pravoslavnoj Tserkvi", but even he did not pay enough attention to the
Western infatuation with a semi-arian text-type of the NT.
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

---

[Be aware that sometimes I'm the one doing the snipping. I'll simply
bounce an article if I don't think I can do it safely, but it is at
least possible that I could make an error. --clh]

[Matthew Johnson]

In article <vmf0h.67726$***@trnddc04>, ***@allvantage.com says...
[snip]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Hello,
According to the Bible, Jesus cannot possible be God because the Bible
tells us that Jesus was a created being, whereas God always existed.

It is both irresponisble and dishonet, Bireda, for you to repeat this argument
so soon after it has been so thoroughly discredited in this very newsgroup.

No, Bireda, it is only His human nature that was created; but He Himself, having
only His divine nature, existted from before all time (John 1:1).


[snip]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Concerning your 1 Jo 5:7 one, when we go to the oldest Greek
manuscripts and look at that passage, we don't find those words there.

But this does not really help you. After all, both St. Augustine's classic on
the Trinity, and St. Basil's "On the Holy Spirit" found _ample_ evidence in
Scripture for the Trinity without even ONCE referring to 1 John 5:7.

This is not only the best evidence that it was not in the text at that time, but
it also proves it was entirely _unnecessary_ for the best proof of Trinitarian
doctrine.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
(remember, concerning Bible manuscripts, generally the older the
better, since they are closer to the original)

No, that does not follow. For over a century now, New Testament Textual critics
have been trying to explain to the world: older manuscripts are NOT better. Each
must be judged on its own merits.


[snip]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
This addition, known technically as the "Johannine Comma," was
protected by the Vatican until 1927, in spite of the fact that even
some Catholic scholars had raised doubts about its authenticity as
early as the sixth century.

That is Rome for you!

[snip]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Thus a person desiring accuracy from the Bible would have to keep in
mind the errors of the old KJV Bible, such as this one at 1 Jo 5:7.

True. But when we do this, we find NO support for JW doctrine there. And we find
_MUCH_ support for Trinitarian doctrine.

[suneejan]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
According to the Bible, Jesus cannot possible be God because the Bible
tells us that Jesus was a created being, whereas God always existed.
Jesus created: Col 1:15,
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

Yes, Jesus is the image of God but that does not mean HE is created.
Jesus ispart of the trinity. John 1:1-5 talks about the divinity and
incarnation of Jesus. John 10:30 says that Jesus and God are one, the
same period.

Post by b***@allvantage.com
God always existed: Ps 90:2,
"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the
world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (NIV)
Also notice from that last one, that God never died, and never will.
But Jesus did die and was buried. (see 1 Co 15:3)

Jesus died a physical death but not the spiritual death because HE rose
to heaven. Acts 1:9

[B.G. Kent]

Post by suneejan

Post by b***@allvantage.com
According to the Bible, Jesus cannot possible be God because the Bible
tells us that Jesus was a created being, whereas God always existed.
Jesus created: Col 1:15,
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

Yes, Jesus is the image of God but that does not mean HE is created.

The Bible said that God created he and she "them" in his image
..what does that mean to you?

Blessings
Bren

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by b***@allvantage.com
According to the Bible, Jesus cannot possible be God because the Bible
tells us that Jesus was a created being, whereas God always existed.
Jesus created: Col 1:15,
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

Others have already posted answers to this in another thread. I'm not
sure if this was started to concentrate more on your particular
understanding, but I am reposting my answer here as well, since I
haven't seen any response to this in the other thread.

The word firstborn could mean that
1. He was the first thing created
2. He holds a pre-eminent position

But in the next verse it says "by him ALL things were created" and then
the next verses go to great lengths to show that he is the creator of
ALL:
"things in heaven and on earth
visible and invisible
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities
all things were created by him and for him"

Given the other verses, it is not possible that it was the first
option. There is NO way he could have created everything if he himself
were created.

So you either accept that firstborn means he is pre-eminent, and not
created, or you render the subsequent text a lie. At the point when you
say scripture is in error, there is no more reason to stake any truth
claim to "firstborn" either.

[B.G. Kent]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 ***@allvantage.com wrote:

...

Post by b***@allvantage.com
Hello,
According to the Bible, Jesus cannot possible be God because the Bible
tells us that Jesus was a created being, whereas God always existed.

B - according to the God within (which I believe it is) all beings have a
Christ or God-self within them so we each at our deepest "self" are all
God...and man/woman too.
I.M.O
Blessings
Bren

[Bob]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - according to the God within (which I believe it is) all beings have a
Christ or God-self within them so we each at our deepest "self" are all
God...and man/woman too.
I.M.O
Blessings
Bren

There are "beings" that appear to have been created without God being
in them. Primarily I'm referring to those pathological killers who are
labelled criminally insane because they have no immotional responses,
rather than those who choose to be the way they are. They are often
referred to as someone without a soul. So could God create a human
and "not" be within him/her? Or is this just a quirk of nature?

Bob

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Bob
referred to as someone without a soul. So could God create a human
and "not" be within him/her? Or is this just a quirk of nature?
Bob

B - I think that God is always with them...but they have blinders on and
it will take a looooooooong time for them to take off the blindfold. I
don't believe that anyone is written off when it comes to Gods love and
commitment but that we just have to go through what we feel we must to
learn our lessons.

Blessings
Bren

[jane abraham]

Some Christian followed their Churches without using their brain. They
are blind followers of the false prophet. We will be mad and crazy if
we start discussion using the bible as our references because there are
tonnes and tonnes of really obvious contradictions in the bible

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving

them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

And the list will goes on and on. Do you agree with me.

May our Lord give us the guidance my Christian friends.

With Love

Jane

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by jane abraham
Some Christian followed their Churches without using their brain.

And some non-christians follow something else without using their
brains. Judging from the long list of non-contradictions you call
contradictions, I would say you are one of them.

What are _you_ following w/o using your brain, Jane?

Post by jane abraham
They
are blind followers of the false prophet.

What false prophet are you following, Jane?

Post by jane abraham
We will be mad and crazy if
we start discussion using the bible as our references because there are
tonnes and tonnes of really obvious contradictions in the bible

Neither your premise nor your conclusion are true.

Post by jane abraham
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

This is no contradiction. Indeed, it really amazes me that anyone
could read them and think they were. Did you even _read_ these verses
before you posted this, Jane? Do you even have a _clue_ how to read
them _in context_?

I will not waste my time with all the others in your long list,
because you made SUCH a bad start. So I will examine only this one in
detail, and lease the rest to others.

And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very
good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
(Gen 1:31 JPS)

and:

And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it
grieved Him at His heart. (Gen 6:6 JPS)

The JPS translation is both pretty literal and pretty faithful to the
original text, at least in these passages. So don't try to quibble on
that point.

Now it is CLEAR that there is no contradiction here, just as there is
no contradiction when I say in the morning, "It is cold and foggy
today", and in the afternoon, "It is hot and sunny". For both
statements are about different TIMES. Of _course_ God was pleased with
all His works (Gen 1:31) when He had just made them. It was before the
Fall. Only _after_ the Fall did _some_ of His works, namely mankind,
give Him such grief that "he repented that He had made man (Gen 6:6)".

So no contradiction, not even close.

[snip]

Post by jane abraham
And the list will goes on and on.

No, it does not. Why, your list was wrong even from the very start.

Post by jane abraham
Do you agree with me.

Certainly not.

[snip]

[FRANKIE LEE]

The authors who compiled the so-called Contradictions did so with malice and
from inspiration by the dark side.

Just like the first chapter of Genesis.

Did God really said that?

I hope jane understood what distortion is,and know what deceptions are.

Post by jane abraham
Some Christian followed their Churches without using their brain. They
are blind followers of the false prophet. We will be mad and crazy if
we start discussion using the bible as our references because there are
tonnes and tonnes of really obvious contradictions in the bible
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48

...

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by jane abraham
Some Christian followed their Churches without using their brain. They
are blind followers of the false prophet. We will be mad and crazy if
we start discussion using the bible as our references because there are
tonnes and tonnes of really obvious contradictions in the bible

ALL answered simply by the understanding that God's revelation
to man MUST be anthropomorphic. How could it be otherwise?