Discussion:
Sound Doctrine
(too old to reply)
pip threlfall
2007-11-19 01:58:57 UTC
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For the past year I have been attending a Pentecostal bible study at a local church.

Recently I have become aware of a difference between the Pastor s
understanding of basic doctrine and my own. I found your site and
would value your opinion regarding our respective views.

We both agree that Jesus Christ is divine. However he believes
Almighty God left heaven and was born as baby Jesus. During his time
on earth the Holy Spirit was in charge of heaven, and then after
Jesus rose from the dead he returned to heaven and sent the Holy
Spirit to be with us on earth.

I believe Almighty God (the Father) sent his Son into the world who
was born as baby Jesus, died and rose from the dead, and ascended
into heaven, and now the Holy Spirit is on earth as a result of our
relationship with our heavenly Father which we have through The Lord
Jesus.

It seems the basic difference in our theology is, I see Jesus as The
Son of God, and the Pastor sees Jesus as Almighty God.

I should value your observations.

Yours
Pip

----

[Your pastor's view is very far from the standard Christian one.
Yours is much closer. I see two issues with yours:

* Typically "almighty God" would be used to refer to God "as a whole",
i.e. the whole Trinity, not just the Father.

* You speak of the Father sending the Son to earth. That's certainly
fine. However it's worth noting that in standard Christian theology
the Son is seen is eternal, just as the Father and Holy Spirit are.
You can see this in passages such as Heb 1:2, where the Son is the
agent of creation. When Jesus appeared on earth, it's not that this
eternal Son left heaven, so that the Son is now just on earth. Rather,
the eternal Son took the human being Jesus as his way of being human.
The problem with the Son coming down from heaven is that it leaves the
Son as neither really God nor human being, but a sort of compromise.
The standard doctrine protects both the eternal Son's full divinity
and Jesus' full humanity.

Pentecostals have a variety of views on this subject. These days many
Pentecostals (e.g. the Assemblies of God, which is the largest
Pentecostal denomination) are in effect evangelicals with a special
emphasis on the role of the Holy Spirit, and Christians' experience of
the work of the Spirit. As such they hold orthodox views on the
Trinity and on Jesus' nature.

Groups such as the United Ptencostal Church International reject the
Trinity. They believe that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are different
ways in which one God reveals himself.

However that's not what you're describing. I'm not an expert in the
Pentecostal movement, but your pastor is saying something that I
haven't heard of before among Pentecostals. If you've understood your
pastor correctly, I would say he's holding a view that is very unusual
indeed. Without hearing him directly I wouldn't want to judge him, but
it sounds like an idea that doesn't make much sense, and would cause
serious problems.

--clh]
B.G. Kent
2007-11-20 02:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by pip threlfall
We both agree that Jesus Christ is divine. However he believes
*snip for content*
Post by pip threlfall
I should value your observations.
Yours
Pip
B - I believe that Jesus was a human being (totally) but one born special
to direct us to ONENESS and as an example of the Christ within us all. I
believe that Jesus was both man and symbol of God. I believe that we are
all sons and daughters of God. I don't believe, personally, that Jesus
wanted us to worship "him" but to worship ONENESS..God in everything and
beyond everything (I am a panenthiest)and to worship the "way". Jesus
looked beyond the ego of "himself" and talked from his "God..or Christ"
center..which is why he spoke as God when he did loving and powerful
things.

My way is not the way of the world...or the broad way..but is a narrow way
that a smaller amount of people tend to follow...which is why you have
probably not heard of this way much in your life.

blessings,
Bren
b***@acenet.net.au
2007-11-26 00:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by pip threlfall
We both agree that Jesus Christ is divine. However he believes
*snip for content*
Post by pip threlfall
I should value your observations.
Yours
Pip
B - I believe that Jesus was a human being (totally) but one born special
to direct us to ONENESS and as an example of the Christ within us all. I
believe that Jesus was both man and symbol of God. I believe that we are
all sons and daughters of God. I don't believe, personally, that Jesus
wanted us to worship "him" but to worship ONENESS..God in everything and
beyond everything (I am a panenthiest)and to worship the "way". Jesus
looked beyond the ego of "himself" and talked from his "God..or Christ"
center..which is why he spoke as God when he did loving and powerful
things.
My way is not the way of the world...or the broad way..but is a narrow way
that a smaller amount of people tend to follow...which is why you have
probably not heard of this way much in your life.
blessings,
Bren
I think your pastor is off the beam as far as his Christology is
concerned.

I accept the Trinity, but I don't spend much time trying to analyse
it. I remember a story of an old time saint who spent quite some time
trying to understand the concept and reality of the Trinity.

One day he was walking through a village, and he came upon a young boy
pouring bucket after bucket of water into a small hole in the ground.
Intrigued he asked the boy what he was doing.

"I'm trying to fit the ocean into this hole" the boy replied, and
emptied another bucket.

The old saint grinned. "Son, you'll never fit the ocean into that
hole. It's too small!"

The boy looked at the old saint, gave him a somewhat cynical glance,
and replied, "I've got more chance of pouring the ocean into this hole
than you have of understanding what you've been thinking about.".

The saint never saw the boy again, and nobody else in the village
could remember seeing him.

My own interpretation is that the boy was an angel, sent to tell the
old boy to stop wasting his time trying to understand the Trinity.
noshellswill
2007-12-03 02:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by pip threlfall
We both agree that Jesus Christ is divine. However he believes
...>
Post by B.G. Kent
B - I believe that Jesus was a human being (totally) but one born special
to direct us to ONENESS and as an example of the Christ within us all. I
believe that Jesus was both man and symbol of God. I believe that we are
all sons and daughters of God. I don't believe, personally, that Jesus
wanted us to worship "him" but to worship ONENESS..God in everything and
beyond everything (I am a panenthiest)and to worship the "way". Jesus
looked beyond the ego of "himself" and talked from his "God..or Christ"
center..which is why he spoke as God when he did loving and powerful
things.
...

Well that's something, but it's not NICENE.

nss
*****
B.G. Kent
2007-12-04 03:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by noshellswill
Well that's something, but it's not NICENE.
nss
B - Nope..I figure it's pre-Nicene..then again I've never been an
idolator.

Bren

l***@hotmail.com
2007-11-28 04:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by pip threlfall
I should value your observations.
"Study to show yourselves approved."

Why not read a book? You can read general works such as
Millard Erickson's "Christian Theology." A real primer that is
hard to beat is AW Tozer's, "Knowledge of the Holy." Also,
I'd suggest you find a copy on line of the Westminster
Confession of Faith.

If you want something a bit more specific and substantial,
Erickson's (I don't mean to emphasize him) "God in Three
Persons" which really is an excellent book to introduce
you to the biblical support, the history and ramifications
of the doctrine of the Trinity.

As a proof text for Trinitarianism, however, you find no finer
work than John Metzger's "The Tri-unity of God is Jewish."
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