Discussion:
What is Faith?
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Thistlewait
2007-06-18 01:34:54 UTC
Permalink
What is Faith? What does that word mean?

Does not the word "faith" mean: acceptance without benefit of knowledge? So,
simply by declaring that one has "faith" hasn't one already admitted that
they DO NOT KNOW? If one has already admitted that one does not know, then
how can anything that one may have to say about their "faith" even possibly
be true? When I hear someone declare to me that they have "faith", and in
the same breath qualify that word "faith" with the word "truth", is there
anyone...anywhere on this planet that can explain to me why I should not
consider that I have just be LIED to?"

I think that humanity is facing a grave problem in the form of "faith". But
in a larger context the problem is really a problem of honesty. I don't
think human beings are honest. I thought that if I described to all of you
what it is that I KNOW has happened to me, that some of you may be compelled
to admit exactly the same truth about yourselves. So, this is what happened
to me:

Approximately nine months before I was born, I was summoned into existence
by two creatures...who, to the best of my knowledge, had no design or
purpose in their collaboration of summoning other than to satisfy an
immediate carnal compulsion. To the best of my knowledge, neither of those
two creatures (who I later came to understand as "my parents") every once
gave a single moment's thought to the idea that they may be summoning an
intelligence...sentience...sapience...into this universe that may one day
wish to ask them some very disturbing questions. Questions, as it turned
out, they were ill-prepared to answer with any degree of accuracy or
honesty.

That is what has happened to me! That is what has happened to all of you!

Of all the questions that I did ask, or wished that I had asked those two
creatures, one question is paramount. But I never asked this question of
those two creatures. By the time I had the experience and vocabulary to
understand what the question was that I wanted to ask...and the way I wanted
to ask it, one of those creatures (my father) no longer existed. Of the
other creature (my mother) I found that I had acquired a quality known as
"compassion" and I did not have the heart to ask her this question, because
I knew how disturbing this question would be in her mind. Now, that creature
(my mother) no longer exists.

So, now, I'm going to ask that question of all of you:

If, when you summoned me here, you KNEW that you would be summoning me into
a hostile universe, where I would face danger and hostility from a variety
of circumstances and creatures (including creatures of my own species); and
if you KNEW that you could not tell me with any degree of accuracy or
honesty what this universe is or what it represents; and if you KNEW that
one day I would come into the certain knowledge that one day I must die, and
you could not tell me with any degree of accuracy or honesty WHY I must die,
or WHAT death represents; and if you KNEW that I would have to carry this
knowledge in my mind all the days of my life; and if you KNEW that for
simply talking about these things, let alone trying to solve the problem, my
fellow human beings would ostracize me, ridicule me, and even seek to do me
harm...for nothing more than wanting to know the REAL truth; and if you KNEW
that all my fellow human beings, instead of trying to solve the problem, had
decided instead to wallow in ignorance and superstion; and if you KNEW that
my fellow ignorant, superstitious human beings had embarked upon a path in
which I and every other human being would be forced to bear witness to a
man-made cataclysm intended to justify the ignorant, superstious, insane
desires of "faithful" people in the practice of their irrational dishonesty;
THEN WHY DID YOU SUMMON ME HERE?

Faith, philosophy, systems of thought, paradigms of science...none of those
things are religion. All of those things are how human beings have RESPONDED
to what we all know religion really is: those questions we ask ourelves in
the dark of night that we KNOW we cannot honestly answer. How many of you
have lay in your beds during times of personal crisis or trauma and asked
yourselves questions like these:

"When I die, will I be judged for my actions in life?"

"When I die, have I earned a great reward for my actions in life?"

"When I die, do I deserve some horrendous punishment for my actions in
life?"

And then comes the most distubing question that any of us asks ourselves in
those "private moments":

"Are any of those stories true...at all?"

And isn't that the moment when we all KNOW what the REAL truth is? Isn't
that the moment when we all KNOW that we DOUBT the stories we have be told
since childhood? And isn't doubt like pregnancy, because we KNOW there is no
such thing as being "a little bit pregnant".

But don't mind me...go ahead...perpetuate your "armageddon". Try not to
think of these things when you see you children lying bleeding, broken, and
maimed...in the name of your "faith".

You all sleep well tonight...If...You...Think...You...Can!
B.G. Kent
2007-06-19 01:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thistlewait
"When I die, will I be judged for my actions in life?"
B - I believe I will judge my actions and try to make reparations next
time.
Post by Thistlewait
"When I die, have I earned a great reward for my actions in life?"
B - I think everyone does...actions or not...but that some may get theirs
easily and some may have to be reborn a few times before they realize that
they are of God.
Post by Thistlewait
"When I die, do I deserve some horrendous punishment for my actions in
life?"
B - No...no punishment...just realization and reparation.
Post by Thistlewait
And then comes the most distubing question that any of us asks ourselves in
"Are any of those stories true...at all?"
B - If one looks at things in a non-literal way and sees the teachings
inbetween the lines...it matters little.
Post by Thistlewait
And isn't that the moment when we all KNOW what the REAL truth is? Isn't
that the moment when we all KNOW that we DOUBT the stories we have be told
since childhood? And isn't doubt like pregnancy, because we KNOW there is no
such thing as being "a little bit pregnant".
B - I just simply realized that we all interpret differently and that
other people are no more "in the know" about God than I am.
Post by Thistlewait
But don't mind me...go ahead...perpetuate your "armageddon". Try not to
think of these things when you see you children lying bleeding, broken, and
maimed...in the name of your "faith".
B - but I am a Christian and I don't believe in that kind of armageddon my
friend. Don't generalize about all Christians.
Post by Thistlewait
You all sleep well tonight...If...You...Think...You...Can!
B - Why am I hearing a "mwahahahahahahahahahahahahh!!!!"? as I read that?
LOL...
I sleep very well thanks.

Bren who is in love with God and Goddess and Jesus and Buddha and
Shakti and Shiva etc. and the One behind it all and is
fine with all of that.
b***@juno.com
2007-06-20 01:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thistlewait
Does not the word "faith" mean: acceptance without benefit of knowledge? So,
simply by declaring that one has "faith" hasn't one already admitted that
they DO NOT KNOW?
Ah, I see. The old dichotomy between "faith" and "knowledge." This
false dichotomy has been known to be false since at least Descartes,
about four hundred years ago.

Why is it false, you ask? Very simple. Faith is required for nearly
everything we believe. The only thing we can ever know with absolute
certainty is Descartes' "I think, therefore I am." (This is known as
His famous "Cogito" from the latin verb for "I think." )

You cannot prove that anything exists outside your own mind. What you
BELIEVE to be an external world, existing outside your own brain,
could quite easily be fed falsely, to your brain, by a supercomputer
controlled by green aliens. (Ever see the movie "The Matrix?" That is
based on Descartes' idea that nothing is certain, everything is faith-
based.... with the only exception being the Cogito!)

So you see, virtually everything you believe is 100 percent FAITH
BASED. Therefore, it is completely bogus to try and divide the world
up into "faith" and "knowledge." Your entire premise is completly, and
demonstrably, false.
Post by Thistlewait
how can anything that one may have to say about their "faith" even possibly
be true? When I hear someone declare to me that they have "faith", and in
the same breath qualify that word "faith" with the word "truth", is there
anyone...anywhere on this planet that can explain to me why I should not
consider that I have just be LIED to?"
See above. Faith is not optional. We all live our lives based upon
nearly pure, 100 percent faith every single waking moment of our
lives.
Post by Thistlewait
I think that humanity is facing a grave problem in the form of "faith". But
in a larger context the problem is really a problem of honesty. I don't
think human beings are honest. I thought that if I described to all of you
what it is that I KNOW has happened to me, that some of you may be compelled
to admit exactly the same truth about yourselves. So, this is what happened
You don't actually KNOW diddly squat. You are covering your blind
faith with a fake mask of certainty. Descartes disproved your entire
belief system centuries ago.

Please read up on some extremely basic philosophy. Philosophy has
progressed a long way since Descartes, but you seem to have got hung
up on Lockean Empiricism or some other absurd, antiquated system.
Please catch up with the times! 99 percent of what you THINK you know,
is based on nothing but blind faith. And there is no way out.

Your assignment is to go watch "The Matrix" ten times, and then get
back to me. Perhaps you will have a new appreciation for faith by
then.
Post by Thistlewait
That is what has happened to me! That is what has happened to all of you!
Do you have some sort of point? The mystery of existence is one of the
strongest demonstrations that God exists.

I ask the question like this: If we look at the Entire Universe as a
whole, why is there something rather than nothing? Why is this
gigantic conglomeration of stars and galaxies spinning here in the
infinite void, rather than just a blank emptiness of absolute
nothingness?

This is quite possibly, the final, ultimate question that has no
answer. But the scientific order of the universe points straight to
the Great Scientist...... who is known to the average man-on-the-
street as "God."
Very well, I'll do my best to answer it.
Post by Thistlewait
If, when you summoned me here, you KNEW that you would be summoning me into
a hostile universe,
The universe is not hostile. It sometimes seems that way, but God is
the gigantic fact that demonstrates otherwise.
Post by Thistlewait
of circumstances and creatures (including creatures of my own species); and
if you KNEW that you could not tell me with any degree of accuracy or
honesty what this universe is or what it represents;
You definition of "accuracy" and "honesty" appears to be fuzzy. You
seem to think that being "honest" is the same as being completely
"certain" of something. But since Descartes, we have known that
complete certainty is impossible, and therefore I suggest that you
revise your definition of "honesty" to fit in with Cartesianism.
Post by Thistlewait
one day I would come into the certain knowledge that one day I must die, and
you could not tell me with any degree of accuracy or honesty WHY I must die,
This is a good question. There are several possible answers.

IMHO, the best one is you must die because God has ordained it. But he
has also ordained that you will resurrect at the last trumpet. You
will then be judged and sent either straight to heaven, or you will be
purified in a temporary hell. But eventually, you and everyone else,
including Hitler, will be allowed into heaven, and infinite happiness
will reign for all eternity.

Yes, the above paragraph is based on faith, just like everything else
you and I believe. (Cogito excluded). However, there are many very
good reasons to believe in the Christian revelation, which we can go
into if you are interested.
Post by Thistlewait
or WHAT death represents; and if you KNEW that I would have to carry this
knowledge in my mind all the days of my life;
The knowledge of death is quite sobering. But you need to give the
Christian Revelation a serious chance. Ask yourself this: Is it likely
that the entire Western Civiliztion is based upon a giant lie?
Christianity is the foundation of our entire society. We prove this
all the time, from children reciting "under God" in the pledge, to
witnesses swearing on the Bible in courts of law, to Senators and
Presidents taking their oaths of office on the Bible.

You need to weigh carefully the enormous fact that our entire society
is founded on the Bible and Christianity. This is a type of evidence,
like it or not. This type of evidence falls under the category of the
science of Sociology.

Are you so smart that you can throw the foundation of this entire
Civlization away, confident that you alone have discovered the truth?
What is even more to the point: are you willing to risk eternal
damnation because of your own self-aggrandizing high-opinion of your
own ability to be the lone discover of how things really are?

Take warning from history. When the Russians tried atheism as the
basis of their society, what happened? How long did Communism last?
Why was it such a dismal failure? Might it have been that God blesses
those societies that acknowledge Him?
Post by Thistlewait
simply talking about these things, let alone trying to solve the problem, my
fellow human beings would ostracize me, ridicule me, and even seek to do me
harm...for nothing more than wanting to know the REAL truth;
Here is the hard truth. Most people don't like thinking about the
ultimate questions. But some of us, myself included, do.

I have gone through long dark nights of the soul, when I questioned
all of society, faith, religion, and all the rest of it. I'm laughing
at myself even now, because my political and religious opinions are a
tiny minority in many ways. (Good grief, I am a Trinitarian
Universalist! How many of those are there? Ha ha).

But aside from that..... Don't give in to despair. I suggest that you
read one pro-Christian book for every pro-atheist book you read. You
could start with books by C. S. Lewis, or some other atheist convert
such as Lee Strobel.

Or you could read the two books that convinced lifelong world-famous
atheist (Antony Flew) to recently become a Deist. Just go ahead and
Google "Schroeder, Varghese, and Antony Flew" together to find those
books. Or what might be even better, Flew is also about to release a
new book that explains in detail his reasons for becoming Deist (I saw
it on Amazon.com) It looks like it will be co-authored with Varghese.
Post by Thistlewait
that all my fellow human beings, instead of trying to solve the problem, had
decided instead to wallow in ignorance and superstion; and if you KNEW that
my fellow ignorant, superstitious human beings had embarked upon a path in
which I and every other human being would be forced to bear witness to a
man-made cataclysm intended to justify the ignorant, superstious, insane
desires of "faithful" people in the practice of their irrational dishonesty;
THEN WHY DID YOU SUMMON ME HERE?
You see, you have so many unproven assumptions here, that I'm not up
to answering your question, until you clear those false assumptions
out of the way.
Post by Thistlewait
Faith, philosophy, systems of thought, paradigms of science...none of those
things are religion.
Of course they are. Religion in its highest form is a synthesis of
precisely these elements. From Augustine to Aquinas to Calvin to Barth
and all the rest, serious attempts have been made to answer all the
ultimate questions. I suggest that you start reading some of them.
Post by Thistlewait
to what we all know religion really is: those questions we ask ourelves in
the dark of night that we KNOW we cannot honestly answer. How many of you
have lay in your beds during times of personal crisis or trauma and asked
You appear to be under the delusion that you are the only person who
ever asks the Ultimate Questions. If you stop and think about it, how
likely is that REALLY?
Post by Thistlewait
"Are any of those stories true...at all?"
Have you actually looked at the evidence for the affirmative answer?
Post by Thistlewait
And isn't that the moment when we all KNOW what the REAL truth is? Isn't
that the moment when we all KNOW that we DOUBT the stories we have be told
since childhood? And isn't doubt like pregnancy, because we KNOW there is no
such thing as being "a little bit pregnant".
Doubt applies to absolutely everything save the Cogito.

This is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a new idea. You seem
to think you have discovered something new. You have not. I welcome
you to the club of those who question everything. Come on in, the
water's fine.
Post by Thistlewait
But don't mind me...go ahead...perpetuate your "armageddon". Try not to
think of these things when you see you children lying bleeding, broken, and
maimed...in the name of your "faith".
Armageddon has been ordained by God. I have never met a Christian who
seriously thinks we should try to speed up its arrival. They might say
so as a joke, but not seriously.

Let me guess. You've been reading Hitchens' book? (God is not great).
Do you have any idea the depth of mis-characterization he does in that
book? Even a New York editorial review was shocked at how little
Hitchens knew of his supposed subject. That book is pretty much a
seminar in how to make a straw-man argument.
Post by Thistlewait
You all sleep well tonight...If...You...Think...You...Can!
Your almost mind-boggling straw-man version, of all the centuries of
serious Christian Theology, reveals that your education, thus far, has
been rather biased and one-sided. I suggest that you remedy this with
all speed.
Sarah Kanary
2007-06-20 01:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thistlewait
What is Faith? What does that word mean?
Does not the word "faith" mean: acceptance without benefit of knowledge?
No. That is merely blind credulity.

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident
demonstration of realities though not beheld." Heb. 11:1

To have true faith, one must first have knowledge:

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only
true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." John 17:3

If God wanted us to simply believe in Him blindly, no questions asked, then
having the Bible written would have been pointless. Once you get to know
someone, you can have faith that they will act a certain way in certain
situations. If someone has a reputation for being truthful at all times, is
it just blind credulity to believe what they say? No. It is true faith,
based on knowledge.

Peace to you and yours.


--------------------------------
You can find satisfying answers!
http://www.watchtower.org/

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