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Was "Re: Christians egregious error"
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b***@allvantage.com
2007-04-23 02:30:23 UTC
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Re: Christians egregious error
I'm emailing this, as well as sending it through google, since you said
you were having problems with posting.
Thanks,
Tara
--------------------------------
I was basking in the warm glow that comes after attending my
GLBT-friendly church and the thought came to me that one of the most
egregious errors that some Christians make is to oppose homosexuality.
Instead of taking a critical look at the context and translation in
which homosexuality appears in the Bible (i.e. homosexual prostitution
and population increasing in nomadic, agrarian societies), they take the
passages literally to mean the loving, longterm relationships of today.
If one looks at the nearly infinite numbers of species of animals that
have been discovered, and wait to be discovered, the abundance and
variety in nature and that homosexual behavior is well documented
throughout the animal kingdom, it's logical that nature would produce
more than one sexual orientation or two genders (there are asexual
reproduction and sex-changing animals). Why would humans be singled out
as a species that never varies in gender or sexual orientation? It
doesn't make sense.
Some claim homosexuality is a "dysfunction" because it doesn't result in
the complimentary nature of the female/male pairing or procreation. Just
because the majority of humans are heterosexual doesn't make
homosexuality a dysfunction, no more than a greater number of babies
born with brown eyes and the procreation argument is non sequiter since
the percentage of homosexuals is too small to ever significantly impact
the continuation of humans. Also, in many homosexual relationships one
partner takes on the dominant role and vice versa.
The Bible is a great collection of writings, but considering the
original documents no longer exist, much was passed down through
oratory, there are missing and destroyed parts of the copies of the
originals, committees were formed to decide what was meant in obscure
and missing passages, it's ignorant not to look at context and the
culture that existed when trying to decide what certain passages meant.
By first deciding homosexuality is a "sin," the person then rationalizes
why it's a sin. In other words, uses reverse deduction. One could do the
same with heterosexuality, i.e. nearly half of all heterosexual
marriages fail, it results in over-population, hunger and starvation and
the transmission of diseases including AIDS.
It's time to shake off the archaic "homosexuality is a sin" thinking and
welcome the rainbow of diversity of humanity, including sexuality and
gender.
Hello,

You would be correct if the Bible we have today has been corrupted so
much as to render it unworthy of trust. But Scholars who have studied
it in detail, do not find that to be the case. Actually it is
remarkably preserved, esp considering how many copies have been made,
and how old the writings are etc.

For example, many Scriptures concerning homosexuality are preserved in
the NT. So how reliable is the NT? Notice the opinion of one Scholar
concerning it. Professor Kurt Aland wrote:

"It can be determined, on the basis of 40 years of experience and with
the results which have come to light in examining . . . manuscripts at
1,200 test places: The text of the New Testament has been excellently
transmitted, better than any other writing from ancient times; the
possibility that manuscripts might yet be found that would change its
text decisively is zero." [-Das Neue Testament-zuverl=E4ssig =FCberliefert
(The New Testament-Reliably Transmitted), Stuttgart, 1986, pp. 27,
28.]

Thus it is not just 'wishful thinking' that Christians believe the NT
is accurate in what it writes, but based on intensive research they
are convinced of that.

Thus if the NT really does reflect the thoughts of God, then here is
what GOD thinks of the homosexual lifestyle. Ro 1:26,27,

"26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men
likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with
passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and
receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their
error." (RSV)

So God is very clear on this subject, and genuine Christians put God's
thoughts over man's thoughts. (Ac 5:29)


Sincerely, James


**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

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---

[A portion of the original posting suggests that the text is not well
established, thus justifying this response. However the arguments
involving homosexuality are really about interpretation, not the text.
The interpretation includes both what exactly what behaviors the
author intended to include, and in what way the texts apply to us
today.
--clh]
b***@dodo.com.au
2007-04-26 01:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@allvantage.com
Re: Christians egregious error
I'm emailing this, as well as sending it through google, since you said
you were having problems with posting.
Thanks,
Tara
--------------------------------
I was basking in the warm glow that comes after attending my
GLBT-friendly church and the thought came to me that one of the most
egregious errors that some Christians make is to oppose homosexuality.
Instead of taking a critical look at the context and translation in
which homosexuality appears in the Bible (i.e. homosexual prostitution
and population increasing in nomadic, agrarian societies), they take the
passages literally to mean the loving, longterm relationships of today.
...
Post by b***@allvantage.com
The Bible is a great collection of writings, but considering the
original documents no longer exist, much was passed down through
oratory, there are missing and destroyed parts of the copies of the
originals, committees were formed to decide what was meant in obscure
and missing passages, it's ignorant not to look at context and the
culture that existed when trying to decide what certain passages meant.
...
Post by b***@allvantage.com
Hello,
You would be correct if the Bible we have today has been corrupted so
much as to render it unworthy of trust. But Scholars who have studied
it in detail, do not find that to be the case. Actually it is
remarkably preserved, esp considering how many copies have been made,
and how old the writings are etc.
...
Post by b***@allvantage.com
So God is very clear on this subject, and genuine Christians put God's
thoughts over man's thoughts. (Ac 5:29)
---
[A portion of the original posting suggests that the text is not well
established, thus justifying this response. However the arguments
involving homosexuality are really about interpretation, not the text.
The interpretation includes both what exactly what behaviors the
author intended to include, and in what way the texts apply to us
today.
--clh]- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Again its a case of loving the sinnner while despising the sin.

I recently heard from a male of long time homosexual inclination that
it was "built in". I'd point out that as far as I know he is
celibate, and has been for a long time, which for a male of normal sex
drive would be difficult in itself.

On the other I've heard from a non-homosexual pastor that in every
case he'd dealt with, homosexuals were made, not born ie. there was a
decisive action by themselves or someone else that kicked off the
sequence. For that matter, premarital sex is similar - once somebody
has intercourse for the first time, and if it's outside of marriage,
they're going to find their inhibitions about unmarried sex take a
nosedive. Depending on their temperament, a life of promiscuity is
quite likely.

I once heard a testimony by a former homosexual in a church that at
his second suicide attempt Christ materialised in front of him, moved
towards him and then seemed to merge with him. From that time on he
never even had to struggle with his homosexual urges.
Two different opinions, and a rather unusual testimony - what to make
of it?

Well, due to the fact I have consideable respect for both of the
parties giving their analysis of what might be called the "homosexual
urge" ie. one says its built in, and the other says they're made, I'll
have to sit on the fence for the moment. In other words I can't judge
a man or woman for "being homosexual", because I don't know their
makeup.

In the second case, if Christ was concerned enough to turn up in that
bloke's living room just as he was about to commit suicide for the
second time, then He obviously cared enough for him to prevent him
from sending himself to Hell and also to deliver him from his self
destructive tendency. He had made a previous confession of Christ.

Now both of these things are different from the "homosexual
lifestyle". I have no time for the Sydney Mardi Gras for example, and
I sometimes wonder what part it, along with abortion and several other
aspects of the Australian moral scene, are having in creating the
curse of our current drought for instance, the rise of Islamic
terrorism, with some offshoots in nearby Indonesia, and the gradual
drawing of Australian troops into a number of foreign conflicts, along
with our burgeoning national debt. I can only shudder to think of the
eternal fate of some of the participants in the Mardi Gras if they
keep mocking God and Christ the way they do. They can change of
course.

But on the other hand, God forgives. There are no instances in the
New Testament of Christ "healing" a homosexual as far as I know, yet
church tradition teaches that Mary Magdalen was a prostitue. Christ
told the Pharisees that prostitutes, tax collectors and publicans were
getting into heaven ahead of them.

In fact, one of the problems of the modern Western church is that it
has almost no appeal for sinners, but is largely made up of people
with nice homes, good jobs, nice families and all the rest. In other
words, it is a middle class establishment. What happened to the call
to "sinners"?
shegeek72
2007-04-30 01:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@allvantage.com
"26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men
likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with
passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and
receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their
error." (RSV)
Here it does not explain what "unnatural" means. I believe this
section means prostitution. Where it refers to men the intended
meaning is homosexual rape or homosexual prostitution, both that
existed in that time in history.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org
Matthew Johnson
2007-05-01 02:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by b***@allvantage.com
"26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men
likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with
passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and
receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their
error." (RSV)
Here it does not explain what "unnatural" means.
Well, of course it does not. It is not the job of a translator to provide an
exhaustive explanation.
Post by shegeek72
I believe this
section means prostitution.
Well, yes, we know that is what you believe. What remains obscure is why you
insist on believing such nonsense, when there is SO much evidence to the
contrary.
Post by shegeek72
Where it refers to men the intended
meaning is homosexual rape or homosexual prostitution, both that
existed in that time in history.
And I am sure I am not the only one to explain it to you: it does NOT refer
exclusively to either. It refers to ANY homosexual activity. It is ALL condemned
as sinful and even extremely so.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
shegeek72
2007-05-02 01:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
It refers to ANY homosexual activity. It is ALL condemned
as sinful and even extremely so.
In your opinion.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org
Matthew Johnson
2007-05-03 01:42:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
It refers to ANY homosexual activity. It is ALL condemned
as sinful and even extremely so.
In your opinion.
NOT just "in my opinion". In the opinion of those who actually know what they
are talking about.

It is extremely childish to try to level all opinions by saying things like "in
your opinion". It is a vain as trying to equate the opinion of a medical doctor
with that of a grade-schooler on a medical issue.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
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