Is Jesus God?

[jane abraham]

Is Jesus God?

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the
second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is
used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine



within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult
your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn
out of context:


1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a
limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour
knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the
son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all.
His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own
admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear
proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not
God.


2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power



he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily,
verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he
seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine
own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is just;
because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath



sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful, He is also
the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own
admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not



all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.


3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon



nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom
he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my
Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He



is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God
why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then
couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?"
Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer
(Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of
Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup
pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt
26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own
admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed
to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.


4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that
this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at
any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time



nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24. "God



is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in



truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any
time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that
Jesus was not God.


5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus
acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from
his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not
equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of



Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than
I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus
responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that
is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself
and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither
came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear
evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with
God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in
St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father
which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into
the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he
would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he
would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of
another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and
therefore Jesus is not God.


Conclusion
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge
about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is
not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what
basis have you come to believe otherwise?


My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is



false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented
in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.


If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.


What is the word of God about Jesus:


A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are



doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him!
When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is. (Qur'an
19:34,35).


And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have



indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it



and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down
crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son; and
it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the
heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant (Qur'an
19:88-93).


Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He
created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an
3:59).


People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say
not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only
the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a
spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not,
'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be
on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in the



heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an 4:171)


B. Regarding Jesus being God:
And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me
and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It
is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You
knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is
within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what
You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a
witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take
me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of
everything. (Quran 5:116,117)


C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:
And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty
calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary,



the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified
him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at
variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they have no



knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they did not
slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him; God is
Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book but will



assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day
he will be a witness against them. (Qur'an 4:156-159)

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by jane abraham
Is Jesus God?

Of course. See John 1:1-18. This leaves no shadow of a reasonable
doubt. Yet people find unreasonable doubts anyway. You have chosen to
follow them.

Post by jane abraham
Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God,
the second person in the "Holy trinity."

And also without a doubt, you have already made such a big gaffe, you
reveal to all that you do not even understand the dogma you undertake
to refute. We do NOT say "second person IN the Holy Trinity"; we say
"second person OF the Holy Trinity".

If another poster had done this, I would have assumed it was a simple
mistake. But in your case, it is clearly because you simply do NOT
understand! 'In' already implies a non-trinitarian understanding of
the persons. No person is a person IN the Trinity. For that would
imply there is a separation between Persons. But the Father is in the
Son, and the Son is in the Father (John 14:10).

Post by jane abraham
However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about
Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly
belies this claim.

I have heard this claim many times before. I didn't believe it then,
and I don't believe it now.

Post by jane abraham
We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following

I did consult it. And I find that your conclusions ARE "drawn out of
context" -- and worse.

Post by jane abraham
1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of
a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour
knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the
son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all.
His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own
admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear
proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not
God.

No, when he said 'son', He did not specify "Son of God". He could also
mean "Son of Man". In this case, it should be understood as being in
reference to His human nature, i.e., as a man, He does not know.

Now I know to a strict Monadist like yourself this sounds like
equivocation. But it is not. On the contrary: it is one of several
surprising methods of intepretation Christians have found necesary
over the years to _avoid_ the disastrous consequences of your
Monadism.

Post by jane abraham
2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power
he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said,
"Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19.

You have misunderstood this verse, too. This is a reference to the
Trinitarian principle that the Father and Son have one faculty of
will, one 'energy', one 'operatio'.

Post by jane abraham
and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the
will of the Father which hath sent me." St. John 5:30.

This too, is a reference to the same principle, that there is one
'operatio' in the Trinity.

Post by jane abraham
But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power
and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on
his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that
therefore Jesus is not God.

No. It proves rather that there is one 'operatio' in the Trinity.

Post by jane abraham
3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.

You miss the point: Scripture NEVER says "Jesus did have a God". That
is your theologically biased intepretation of Scripture.

Post by jane abraham
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call
upon nor pray to any others.

Obviously not. But Jesus Christ prayed because it is the proper thing
for His human nature to do.

Post by jane abraham
But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to
whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your
Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also
reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why
hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't
this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that
not be pure nonsense?

No, it would not, for the reason I gave above.

Post by jane abraham
When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to
himself?

You haven't even read the passage, have you? It does NOT say He prayed
this prayer Himself.

Post by jane abraham
When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be
possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but
as thou wilt." Matt 26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself?

All of these question make the same fundamental error: failing to
understand what it means that Christ is one Person in two natures, the
human and the divine.

Post by jane abraham
That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions,
acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear
proof that Jesus himself is not God.

No. Rather, your erroneous restatement of Scripture is proof that you
are not interested in what Scripture really says. It does NOT say
"prayed to another being as God". That is your theologically biased
assumption.

Post by jane abraham
4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood

This is a classic _pagan_ objection to Scripture. Proclus and Celsus
made this same objection long before Mohammed did.

You should have got the hint when noticing that Mohammed was imitating
the pagans.

Post by jane abraham
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said
that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen
God at any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at
any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37.

In both these cases, you are quoting out of context.

Post by jane abraham
He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship
him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Which you do not do, since you do not worship the Son as the Father
commands (John 5:23):

that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does
not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. (Joh 5:23
RSVA)

And how do we honor the Father? WIth worship. Therefore we must honor
the Son the same way.

Post by jane abraham
That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time,
while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus
was not God.

No. You are reading out of context. He was referring to the Father.

Besides: just a little later He surprises His disciples by telling
them that they _have_ seen the Father:

Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be
satisfied." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet
you do not know me, Philip? HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER;
HOW CAN YOU SAY, 'SHOW US THE FATHER'? Do you not believe that I am in
the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not
speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his
works. (Joh 14:8-10 RSVA)

Post by jane abraham
5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus
acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from
his own.

Again, He was speaking in reference to His human nature.

Post by jane abraham
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not
equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth
of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater
than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17,
Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but
one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions
between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came
from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John
8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather
than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will
but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will
but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would
admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but
was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as
greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in
deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that
Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

You have missed the point of ALL these passages. What you call
'subordination' is really a reference to the one 'operatio', what you
call "another greater than Himself" was also only a reference to His
human nature (of course God is greater than His human nature), what
you call 'negating his own will' is again a reference to the one
'operatio'.

Are you trying to set a record for misunderstanding the most verses in
one paragraph?

Post by jane abraham
Conclusion

Wrong conclusion.

Post by jane abraham
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge
about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is
not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus,

By NO means does it do this! You can maintain the illusion that it
does only by _ignoring_ large parts of the Bible, such as John 5:23 &
14:8-10. Not to mention all of John 1:1-18.

Post by jane abraham
upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

You are asking a loaded question.

Post by jane abraham
My brother or sister,

You are not _my_ "brother or sister", as long as you wage this insane
ideological war against the divinely revealed saving dogma of the
Trinity.

Post by jane abraham
the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and
completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the
Bible.

Wrong again. Do you _really_ think you can earn any credibility for
yourself by repeating the same wrong claim over and over?

Post by jane abraham
God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

You miss the point: a unity that can only be one, and not be one and
three at the same time, is NOT 'perfect'. Not by any means. Rather,
the perfection of God's _real_ unity is precisely that His unity
_transcends_ number. So yes, He can be both one and three.

Post by jane abraham
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

That would NOT be "investigating the truth about God". No, that would
be deluding oneself with a curious amalgam of ancient errors.
Why on earth do you think you can get away with calling the Koran "the
word of God" in this NG?

[snip]

[tdup2]

We ourselves are made up of a human body, soul and spirit. Three parts.

Why is it so hard to understand the Father being made of 3, Father, Son and
Holy Spirit. Not 3 Gods but One. He says Himself, "there is no other gods".

Tim

Post by jane abraham
Is Jesus God?
Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the
second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is
used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine

...

[B.G. Kent]

Post by tdup2
We ourselves are made up of a human body, soul and spirit. Three parts.

B - Curious..what is your definition of soul and spirit?

What also is your def. of Holy Spirit.?

thanks
Bren

[suneejan]

John 10:30 Jesus says...I and my fathher are one. In matthew 28:19,
Jesus talks about the trinity.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by tdup2
We ourselves are made up of a human body, soul and spirit. Three parts.

B - Curious..what is your definition of soul and spirit?
What also is your def. of Holy Spirit.?

'def'? How many times have people needed to say it? You are no Christian, Bren.
Why, the very idea that you could ask for a _definition_ of the Holy Spirit just
provides more evidence.

No Christian 'defines' the Holy Spirit.

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by tdup2
We ourselves are made up of a human body, soul and spirit. Three parts.

And yet when you die, you still retain consciousness, a soul and
a spirit. There is too much assumed for this to be a reasonable
analogy.

Better would be that of the universe itself. The universe is a
consortium of space/mass/time. All are required. One cannot
exist apart from the other. Mass requires space to exist in
and a time to be there.

Even better still, if one understands the arguments, both law
and love. If you have a monotheistic singularity you no
longer have an adequate basis for biblical love. Love requires
an object and nothing outside of God existed along side of
Him for Him to have an object to love. And for a truly biblical
love, that object has to be a person. Here only the Christian
Tri-Unity provides such a basis. This is all true for law
as well.

There is also the philosophical dilemma of unity and diversity.
Again, no system outside of Trinitarianism provides an
answer, let alone an adequate one.

[tdup2]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by tdup2
We ourselves are made up of a human body, soul and spirit. Three parts.

B - Curious..what is your definition of soul and spirit?
What also is your def. of Holy Spirit.?
thanks
Bren

1The 5:23 (ASV) And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may
your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit, a term used in the Scriptures generally to denote purely spiritual
beings, also the spiritual, immortal part of man.

The term soul specifies that in the immaterial part of man which concerns
life, action and emotion. Spirit is that part related to worship and divine
communion. The two terms are often used interchangeable, the same functions
being ascribed to each. The deceased are mentioned both as soul and
sometimes as spirit. However, soul and spirit as synonymous terms are not
always employed interchangeably. The soul is said to be lost, for example,
but not the spirit.

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by suneejan
John 10:30 Jesus says...I and my fathher are one.

And in the Hebrew culture, there was no difference between
father and son. This still carries over into our own culture.
"oh you're just like your father!" The point being, that you
are equal by nature. Your nature is exactly the same as
your father's. This could be expounded further but suffice
it to say that the Jews understood exactly what Jesus
was declaring.

John 10:31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the
Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You,
but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to
be God."

And this is exactly what John declares from the very first
verse of his gospel account. Equality.

In Jn 1:14, John uses the ingressive aorist to definitively
state that the Word which was God, entered into an
entirely different state of being -the incarnation. And a
any 1st Century Jew would immediately note, the
reference to "dwelling" and "glory" refer back to the
Shechinah glory which settled over the Tabernacle
in the Exodus account. It was the cloud of glory
which came down and talked with Moses (Ex 34:5)
but it was Word in human form [Jesus] which spoke
face to face with the disciples. John declares this
same remarkable reality in the opening verses of
1 John.

[tdup2]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by tdup2
We ourselves are made up of a human body, soul and spirit. Three parts.

B - Curious..what is your definition of soul and spirit?
What also is your def. of Holy Spirit.?
thanks
Bren

1The 5:23 (ASV) And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may
your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit, a term used in the Scriptures generally to denote purely spiritual
beings, also the spiritual, immortal part of man.

The term soul specifies that in the immaterial part of man which concerns
life, action and emotion. Spirit is that part related to worship and divine
communion. The two terms are often used interchangeable, the same functions
being ascribed to each. The deceased are mentioned both as soul and
sometimes as spirit. However, soul and spirit as synonymous terms are not
always employed interchangeably. The soul is said to be lost, for example,
but not the spirit.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by tdup2
being ascribed to each. The deceased are mentioned both as soul and
sometimes as spirit. However, soul and spirit as synonymous terms are not
always employed interchangeably. The soul is said to be lost, for example,
but not the spirit.

B - Hmmm interesting thankyou..and the Holy Spirit? you never answered
that one... Not that you have to....but it would be nice.
thanks

Bren


*************************************************
Let love guide you in all you do.

*************************************************

[gilgames]

<<
The term soul specifies that in the immaterial part of man which concerns
life, action and emotion. Spirit is that part related to worship and divine
communion. The two terms are often used interchangeable, the same functions
being ascribed to each. The deceased are mentioned both as soul and
sometimes as spirit. However, soul and spirit as synonymous terms are not
always employed interchangeably. The soul is said to be lost, for example,
but not the spirit.
The word spirit (ruwah, pneuma; spirit, wind, breath in the KJV) is used
for the soul, but the word soul (nephes, psuche) never is used for the
divine, connecting with the divine spirit.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by tdup2
<<
The term soul specifies that in the immaterial part of man which concerns
life, action and emotion. Spirit is that part related to worship and divine
communion. The two terms are often used interchangeable, the same functions
being ascribed to each. The deceased are mentioned both as soul and
sometimes as spirit. However, soul and spirit as synonymous terms are not
always employed interchangeably. The soul is said to be lost, for example,
but not the spirit.
The word spirit (ruwah, pneuma; spirit, wind, breath in the KJV) is used
for the soul, but the word soul (nephes, psuche) never is used for the
divine, connecting with the divine spirit.

B - What is the divine spirit?

Bren