Discussion:
Assertions about Paul of Tarsus
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jane abraham
2007-01-15 05:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Paul was a fraud - That is the real reason why Catholicism is wrong
Where, when, why, how?
Dear Duke, hope this will help you. Let hear what Banabas said about
Paul.

Barnabas was a Jew born in Cyrus. His name was Joses,
and due to his devotion to the cause of Jesus, the other apostles had
given him the surname of Barnabas; this term is variously translated as
"Son of Consolation" or "Son of Exhortation".
He was a successful preacher with a magnetic personality. Any one
tormented by the clash of creeds found solace and peace in his company.
His eminence as a man who had been close to Jesus had made him a
prominent member of the small
group of disciples in Jerusalem who had gathered together
after the disappearance of Jesus. They observed the Law of
the Prophets, which Jesus had come, "not to destroy but, to
fulfil" (Matthew 5:17). They continued to live as Jews and
practiced what Jesus had taught them. That Christianity could
ever be regarded as a new religion did not occur to any of
them. They were devout and practicing Jews distinguished from their
neighbours only by their faith in the message of Jesus.

In the beginning they did not organise themselves as a separate
sect and did not have a synagogue of their own. There was nothing in
the message of Jesus, as understood by them, to necessitate a break
with Judaism. However, they incurred the enmity of the vested interests
among the Jewish higher echelon. The conflict between the Jews and the
followers of Jesus was started by the Jews because they felt that the
Christians would undermine their authority.


ACTS 12: 25
"And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when
they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John,
whose surname was Mark."


ACTS 13: 1 and 2
"Now there was in the church that was at Antioch certain
prophets and teachers, as Barnabas, and Simeon, that was
called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had
been brought up with Herod the tetrach, and Saul.
"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy
Ghost said: Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work
whereunto I have called them.


ACTS 14:11 to 15
"And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted
up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia. The gods are come
down to us in the likeness of men.
"And they called Barnabas Jupiter, and Paul Mercurius.
"Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city,
brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have
done sacrifice with the people.


"Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of,
they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out.


"And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are
men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye
should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which
made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are
thereon."

The gulf progressively began to widen. During the siege
of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Christians left the city; and refused
to take part in the Bar Coachaba rebellion in 132 A.D. These
two events brought to the surface the difference between the
Christians and the Jews.


The question of the origin of Jesus, his nature and relation
to God, which later became so important, was not raised
among these early disciples. That Jesus was a man super-
naturally endowed by God was accepted without question.
Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them
to modify this view. According to Aristides, one of the earliest
apologists, the worship of the early Christians was more purely
monotheistic even than of the Jews.


With the conversion of Paul a new period opened in
Christian Theology. Paul's theology was based on his personalexperience
interpreted in the light of contemporary Greek thought. The theory of
redemption was the child of his brain, a belief entirely unknown to the
disciples of Jesus. Paul's theory involved the deification of Jesus.


The Pauline period in the history of the Christian Church
saw a change of scene and principles. In place of the disciples,
who had sat at the feet of Jesus, a new figure, who had not
known Jesus, had come to the forefront. In place of Palestine,
the Roman Empire became the scene of Christian activity.
Instead of being a mere sect of Judaism, Christianity not only
became independent of Judaism but also became independent of Jesus
himself.


Paul was a Jewish inhabitant of Tarsus. He had
spent a long time in Rome and was a Roman citizen. He
realised the strong hold which the Roman religion had on the
masses. The intellectuals were under the influence of Plato
and Aristotle. Paul seems to have felt that it would not be
possible to convert the masses in the Roman Empire without
making mutual adjustments. But his practical wisdom was not acceptable
to those who had seen and heard Jesus. However, in spite of their
difference, they decided to work together for the common cause.


As recorded in the Acts, Barnabas represented those who
had become personal disciples of Jesus, and Paul co-operated
with them for some time. But finally they fell out. Paul wanted to give
up the Commandments given through Moses about things to eat; he wanted
to give up the Commandment given through Abraham regarding
circumcision. Barnabas and the other personal disciples disagreed. The
following sentences in the Acts give a hint of the rift:


"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught
the brethren, and said, "Except ye be circumcised after the
manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."
"When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissen-
sion and disputations with them, they determined that Paul
and Barnabas should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders
about this question" (Acts 14:1 and 2).


After this rift, there was a parting of the ways. In the
Acts, Barnabas disappears after the rift, because the recording
of the acts of the Apostles was done by the followers of Paul.
Because of Paul's compromise with Roman beliefs and
legends, Pauline Christians grew in number and grew in
strength. A stage was later reached when kings were used as
pawns to further the ends of the Church.


The followers of Barnabas never developed a central organ-
ization. Yet due to the devotion of their leaders their number
increased very fast. These Christians incurred the wrath of the
Church and systematic effort was made to destroy them and
to obliterate all traces of their existence including books and
churches. The lesson of history, however, is that it is very
difficult to destroy faith by force. Their lack of organization became
a source of strength because it was not so easy to pick them up one by
one.


Modern research has brought to light odd facts about these
Christians. They are like the crests of waves and looking at
them one can visualise a whole body of ocean not yet visible.


We notice that up to the 4th century A.D. there existed a
sect known as Hypisistarians who refused to worship God as
father. They revered Him as an All Mighty Ruler of the world,
He was the Highest of all and no one was equal to Him.
Paul of Samasata was a Bishop of Antioch. He was of the
view that Christ was not God but a man and a prophet. He
differed only in degree from prophets who came before him
and that God could not have become man substantially.


Then we come across another Bishop of Antioch viz Lucian.
As a Bishop his reputation for sanctity was not less than his
fame as a scholar. He came down strongly against the belief
of Trinity. He deleted all mention of Trinity from the Bible
as he believed it to be a later interpolation not found in the
earlier Gospels. He was martyred in 312 A.D.


Next we come to the famous disciple of Lucian viz Arius
(250-336 A.D.) He was a Libyan by birth. Peter Bishop of
Alexandria ordained him a Deacon but later excommunicated
him. Achilles the successor of Peter again ordained Arius as
priest. Alexander the next Bishop of Alexandria once again
excommunicated him. Arius however had gathered such a
large following that he became a headache for the Church.
If kept out of Church he could be a great danger to her but
he could not be accommodated within the Church as he wanted to
establish the unity and simplicity of the Eternal God. He believed that
how so ever much Christ may surpass other created beings he himself was
not of the same substance as God. He was as human being as any other
man. The teaching of Arius spread like wild fire and shook the very
foundation of the Pauline Church. The controversy that was simmering
for three hundred years suddenly became a conflagration. No man dared
to oppose the organized Church but Arius did,and remained a headache
for her whether he was ordained a priest or was excommunicated. During
this time two events changed the history of Europe.


Emperor Constantine brought a greater part of Europe
under his rule and secondly he began to support the Christians without
accepting Christianity. To the soldier prince the different creeds
within the Christian faith were very confusing. In the Imperial Palace
itself the controve sy was raging not less fiercely. It appears that
perhaps the Queen Mother was inclined towards Pauline Christianity
while his sister Princess Constantina was a disciple of Arius. The
Emperor was wavering between the two faiths. As an administrator he was
interested only in uniting all the Christians within one Church.


It was at this time that the conflict between Arius and Bishop
Alexander became so widespread and so violent that it became a law and
order problem. So the Emperor anxious to maintain peace in the newly
unified Europe had to intervene.


In 325 A.D. a meeting of all denominations of Christianity
was called at Nicea (Now Isnik, a village). Bishop Alexander
was not able to attend the conference and he deputed his
lieutenant Athanasius, who subsequently succeeded Alexander as Bishop
of Alexandria.


The conference had many prolonged sessions. Emperor
Constantine could not grasp the full implications of the eccle-
siastical confrontation, but he was very clear in his mind that
for maintaining peace in his realm the support and cooperation of the
Church was necessary. Accordingly he threw his weight behind Athanasius
and banished Arius from the realm. Thus the belief of Trinity became
the official religion of the empire. Fearful massacre of Christians who
did not believe in Trinity followed. It became a penal offense to
possess a Bible not authorized by the Church and according to some
estimates as many as 270 different versions of the Bible were burnt.
Princess Constantina was not happy at the turn of events. The Emperor
ultimately was persuaded to accept the faith of the men he killed. The
result was that Arius was called back in 346. The day Arius was
scheduled to visit the Cathedral of Constantinople in triumph, he died
suddenly. The Church called it a miracle. The Emperor knew it was a
murder. He banished Athanasius and two other Bishops. The Emperor then
formally accepted Christianity and was baptized by an Arian Bishop.
Thus Monotheism became the official religion. Constantine died in 337.
The next Emperor Constantanius also accepted the faith of Arius. In 341
a conference was held in Antioch and Monotheism was accepted as a
correct interpretation of Christian faith. This view was confirmed by
another Council held in Sirmium in 351. As a result Arianism was
accepted by an overwhelming majority of Christians. St. Jerome wrote in
359 that 'the whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian'.


In this context the next important figure is that of Pope
Honorius. A contemporary of Prophet Mohammed (peace be
on him) he saw the rising tide of Islam whose tenets very much r
esembled those of Arius. As the mutual killings of Christians was still
fresh in his memory he perhaps thought of finding a via media between
Islam and Christianity. In his letters he began to support the doctrine
of 'one mind', because if God has three independent minds the result
would be chaos. The logical conclusion pointed to the belief in the
existence of one God. This doctrine was not officially challenged for
about half a century. Pope Honorius died in October 638. In 680, i.e.
42 years after his death, a council was held in Constantinople where
Pope Honorius was anathematized. This event is unique in the history of
Papacy when a Pope was denounced by a succeeding Pope and the Church.

The next two personalities of this faith that deserve mention
were members of the same family. L. F. M. Sozzini (1525-
1565) was native of Siena. In 1547 he came under the influence
of Camillo a Sicilian mystic. His fame spread in Switzerland
He challenged Calvin on the doctrine of Trinity. He amplified
the doctrine of Arius, denied the divinity of Christ and repu-
diated the doctrine of original sin and atonement. The object
of adoration according to him could only be the one and only
one God. He was followed by his nephew F. P. Sozzini (1539-
1604). In 1562 he published a work on St. John's Gospel
denying the divinity of Jesus. In 1578 he went to Klausonburg
in Transylvania whose ruler John Sigisumud was against the
doctrine of Trinity. Here Bishop Francis David (1510-1579)
was fiercely anti-Trinitarian. This led to the formation of a
sect known as Racovian Catechism. It derives its name from
Racow in Poland. This city became the stronghold of the faith
of Arius.


Among the present-day Christians a large number of men
and women still believe in one God. They are not always vocal. Due to
the crushing power of the Churches they cannot express themselves and
there is not much communication between them.


In the end it will be of interest to quote Athanasius the
champion of Trinity. He says that whenever he forced his
understanding to meditate on the divinity of Jesus his toilsome and
unavailing efforts recoil on themselves, that the more he wrote the
less capable was he of expressing his thoughts. At another place he
pronounces his creed as:-
There are not three but "ONE GOD".

http://barnabas.net/lifebarnabas.htm
*****
Mike
2007-02-21 02:24:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by jane abraham
Paul was a fraud - That is the real reason why Catholicism is wrong
Where, when, why, how?
Dear Duke, hope this will help you. Let hear what Banabas said about
Paul.
Jane,

Without wishing to go into too much detail, your post on this subject
contains the following flaws:

1. The conversion of Gentiles was initiated by Peter, rather than
Paul. Not just that, but the council of Jerusalem (Acts 14-15) has
been completely overlooked in your analysis. The requirement for
circumcision and adherence to Mosaic Law is fully explained there, and
it makes sense. To argue otherwise is to misunderstand the nature of
the Mosaic covenant, and indeed makes God out to be a liar. For He
himself says that anyone who wishes to join Israel and be part of the
covenant cannot do so except by descent. If you are not of Jewish
descent, the covenant does not cover you. Rather, the Gentile
Christian is covered by the New covenant in Jesus.

2. Paul acted in submission to the church authorities on the subject
of Gentile converts. Indeed, his concern was not with insisting on
adherence to the Law, but rather the treatment of Gentile converts as
second-class citizens by Jewish converts.

3. Your assessment of Paul of Samosata and Arius in particular bears
little resemblance to what we know of these characters. Arius in
particular is misrepresented, in that he confirmed the divinity of
Jesus while also contending that he was a created being. In that way
he was further from your own (Islamic) position than we Christians are
- he was advocating clear polytheism, a position the Church had no
choice but to resist even when the odds were stacked in Arius' favour.

4. The Gospel of Barnabas has been shown to be an invention of the
Middle Ages. Few academics give it much credence, and even fewer non-
Islamic ones. It is interesting to note that the GoB has all but
disappeared from Islamic anti-Christian polemics in the last few
years, as time and again it has proved unreliable at best.

...
Post by jane abraham
Among the present-day Christians a large number of men
and women still believe in one God. They are not always vocal. Due to
the crushing power of the Churches they cannot express themselves and
there is not much communication between them.
Since I am a Christian, and since I believe in one God, this surprises
me. I feel neither crushed or unable to express myself. Methinks you
misunderstand what Christians believe.
Post by jane abraham
In the end it will be of interest to quote Athanasius the
champion of Trinity. He says that whenever he forced his
understanding to meditate on the divinity of Jesus his toilsome and
unavailing efforts recoil on themselves, that the more he wrote the
less capable was he of expressing his thoughts. At another place he
pronounces his creed as:-
There are not three but "ONE GOD".
Indeed. That is the starting point of any Christian creed. So what is
the problem?

Mike.

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