Do Muslims & Christians Worship The Same God?

Yes they do. They just manifest a different face I would reckon.

this is only my opinion ofcourse.

Bren

Matthew Johnson

2006-06-15 02:19:17 UTC

Post by * irenic *
While Muslims and Christians, fantasising that they are innocent victims of
evil enemies, continue to act with violence against each other, and against
their own, they each certainly worship much the same God but a different
God from Jesus Father in Heaven .

"Jesus Father in Heaven"? Are you a Patripassian?

--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

Dave

2006-06-16 02:46:36 UTC

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes they do. They just manifest a different face I would reckon.
this is only my opinion of course.

Do you have any reasons to hold this opinion, or do you just hold it
arbitrarily?

Dave

* irenic *

2006-06-16 02:46:37 UTC

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by * irenic *
While Muslims and Christians, fantasising that they are innocent victims
of
evil enemies, continue to act with violence against each other, and
against
their own, they each certainly worship much the same God but a different
God from Jesus Father in Heaven .

"Jesus Father in Heaven"? Are you a Patripassian?

Found somewhere:

Noetus, an obscure clergyman, (if a clergyman) of Smyrna, is said to have
founded a sect on the doctrine, that there is only one substance and person
in the Godhead; that the names, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are nothing
but names for certain phases of action or roles, which God successively
assumes. Christ was the one person, the Godhead or Father, united to a holy
man, Jesus, by a proper Hypostatic union. The Holy Spirit is still this same
person, the Father, acting His part as revealer and sanctifier. Thus, it is
literally true, that the Father suffered, i. e., in that qualified sense in
which the Godhead was concerned in the sufferings experienced by the
humanity, in the Mediatorial Person.

~~~

I was reminded of this 'theory' in the title of Jurgen Moltmann's
(excellent) book 'The Crucified God'...

And you Matthew?
--
Shalom! Rowland Croucher

"If only it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere
insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary to separate them
from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil
cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy
a piece of his own heart?" Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ - 17,400 articles; 4000 jokes/funnies

Matthew Johnson

2006-06-19 16:01:41 UTC

Post by * irenic *

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by * irenic *
While Muslims and Christians, fantasising that they are innocent victims
of
evil enemies, continue to act with violence against each other, and
against
their own, they each certainly worship much the same God but a different
God from Jesus Father in Heaven .

"Jesus Father in Heaven"? Are you a Patripassian?

Noetus, an obscure clergyman, (if a clergyman) of Smyrna, is said to have
founded a sect on the doctrine, that there is only one substance and person
in the Godhead; that the names, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are nothing
but names for certain phases of action or roles, which God successively
assumes. Christ was the one person, the Godhead or Father, united to a holy
man, Jesus, by a proper Hypostatic union. The Holy Spirit is still this same
person, the Father, acting His part as revealer and sanctifier. Thus, it is
literally true, that the Father suffered, i. e., in that qualified sense in
which the Godhead was concerned in the sufferings experienced by the
humanity, in the Mediatorial Person.

Rowland, if following the rules of the FAQ is too difficult for you, just do
everyone a favor and stop posting here.

You know full well you are supposed to give bibliographical information for
every citation. It does not have to be in the exact scholarly standard form
demanded by (for example) Turabian, but it has to be good enough for the readers
in the NG to find it.

[snip]

Post by * irenic *
And you Matthew?

Why do you ask, Rowland? You have to be blind not to already know the answer.
For I have written in response to many of your horrible posts for a long time
now.

If you can't be bothered to read replies to your posts, then again, do us a
favor and give up posting.

[snip]

-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

----

[This isn't a scholarly publication, so we don't actually demand
references for everything. However I would certainly appreciate it
if you would try to be a bit more definite than "somewhere". Using
Google, it's not hard to find:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/DabneyRLTrinity.htm

A quick check suggests that Noetus is known primarily through
Hippolytus' writings against him. This presents dangers, since
Hippolytus might well have misunderstood or misrepesented him. See
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/hippolytus9.html, chapter
V. It is fairly easy to verify from this and other sources that he
considered Father and Son to be different names or activities of one
person. I would be very interested indeed to see evidence that he
combined this with anything like a normal concept of a hypostatic
union.

--clh]

B.G. Kent

2006-06-19 16:01:42 UTC

Post by Dave

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes they do. They just manifest a different face I would reckon.
this is only my opinion of course.

Do you have any reasons to hold this opinion, or do you just hold it
arbitrarily?
Dave

B - I take it from what I consider is the inner knowing...the Christ self.
Blessings
Bren

d***@ntlworld.com

2006-06-21 03:20:40 UTC

Post by B.G. Kent
B - I take it from what I consider is the inner knowing...the Christ self.
Blessings
Bren

Just interested, i.e. not being facetious, but what is a 'Christ-self'?

* irenic *

2006-06-21 03:20:40 UTC

Post by Matthew Johnson
[snip]

Post by * irenic *
And you Matthew?

Why do you ask, Rowland? You have to be blind not to already know the
answer.
For I have written in response to many of your horrible posts for a long
time
now.

Matthew, you're the first person in 15 years of my posting to Usenet to be
pained by my 'horrible' posts. It's not my intention to cause anyone such
pain, so forthwith I will 'cease and desist' from responding to anything you
write in response to my contributions.

I am genuinely sorry to have caused you this trouble.

May the Lord grant you his love, joy and peace.
--
Shalom! Rowland Croucher

"If only it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere
insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary to separate them
from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil
cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy
a piece of his own heart?" Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ - 17,400 articles; 4000 jokes/funnies

B.G. Kent

2006-06-22 03:18:29 UTC

Post by d***@ntlworld.com

Post by B.G. Kent
B - I take it from what I consider is the inner knowing...the Christ self.
Blessings
Bren

Just interested, i.e. not being facetious, but what is a 'Christ-self'?

B- in my opinion..it is the higher Self...the microcosm of the
macrocosm..the symbolic son of the symbolic father within everyone. In my
beliefs...Jesus was enlightened to his Christ-self and from then on...the
egoic self Jesus was no more..and he was-is....the "I AM" or God if you
will.
He had shed his egoic self as we all will.

Blessings
Bren

a***@gmail.com

2006-06-22 03:18:30 UTC

I suggest that it would be useful and illuminating to ask at the same
time, "Do Christians and Jews Worship the Same God?".

Theologically, both Jews and Muslims believe that God is non-Incarnate,
non-Trinitarian. While Christians and Muslims largely agree that Jesus
is the Christ, born of the virgin Mary, who healed the sick, raised the
dead, and ascended into heaven.

In my opinion, anyone who says that Chrisians and Muslims worship a
different God has to be willing to say Christians worship a God
different from the Jews (which sounds really really weird).

You might also look at what the Quran itself says:

[2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed
to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and
Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Moses
and Jesus, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their
Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do
we submit.

So pretty clearly, Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob. If that's the same God that Christians believe in, then why is
there any problem?

Abdul-Halim

www.planetgrenada.blogspot.com
www.thirdresurrection.blogspot.com

Matthew Johnson

2006-06-22 03:18:30 UTC

Post by * irenic *
<>

Post by Matthew Johnson
[snip]

Post by * irenic *
And you Matthew?

Why do you ask, Rowland? You have to be blind not to already know the
answer.
For I have written in response to many of your horrible posts for a long
time
now.

Matthew, you're the first person in 15 years of my posting to Usenet to be
pained by my 'horrible' posts.

You cannot possibly know that. For not everyone 'pained' by your posts responds
to them.

Post by * irenic *
It's not my intention to cause anyone such
pain,

I do not believe you, since you have quite openly professed your intent to spead
ideas that are clearly contrary to the Gospel, and you must know that such
activity causes pain.

Post by * irenic *
so forthwith I will 'cease and desist' from responding to anything you
write in response to my contributions.

Another reason I do not believe you: because your 'cease and desist' here has
NOTHING to do with your alleged intention. On the contrary: it is a childish
excuse for your promised course of action.

[snip]

--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

B.G. Kent

2006-06-23 03:42:58 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I suggest that it would be useful and illuminating to ask at the same
time, "Do Christians and Jews Worship the Same God?".
Theologically, both Jews and Muslims believe that God is non-Incarnate,
non-Trinitarian. While Christians and Muslims largely agree that Jesus
is the Christ, born of the virgin Mary, who healed the sick, raised the
dead, and ascended into heaven.
In my opinion, anyone who says that Chrisians and Muslims worship a
different God has to be willing to say Christians worship a God
different from the Jews (which sounds really really weird).
[2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed
to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and
Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Moses
and Jesus, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their
Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do
we submit.
So pretty clearly, Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob. If that's the same God that Christians believe in, then why is
there any problem?
Abdul-Halim

B - To myself...a Christian of a liberal bent....I believe we ALL believe
in God..but that our cultures and views paint him/her in a myriad of ways
and personas. When I say "all" I mean even the Wiccans, Buddhists,the
Animists,the
Hindu etc. Some call it the force,the creator,the Gods,the
ONE,Jesus,Mary,etc. it is at its most basic level....the same thing
We see a benevolent creative force as having created us and as loving us
and teaching us to drop the egoic self. Many human beings simply have
taken that force and placed a face on it....anthropomorphized it...and in
the end...it matters not what we call it...what face it has...or what
faith we follow..as long as we love and learn to love and treat others as
ourselves.
Focusing on the similarities we have instead of the differences will be
the key to abolishing wars over faith and dogma.

this again..is a subjective feeling I take for the Christ or Higher self
speaking through.

Blessings
Bren

Denis Giron

2006-06-26 02:48:41 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
Theologically, both Jews and Muslims believe that God is non-Incarnate,
non-Trinitarian.

I would correct this to say that *most* Orthodox Jews believe God is
non-Incarnate. The Lubavitcher branch of Chasidic Judaism, however,
does hold that it is possible for God to be on earth "enclothed in a
body". You can see this theology taken to its logical conclusion here:

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/evedmoshiach770

http://moshiach.ws

While the views expressed in those sites represents a minority within
Orthodox Judaism, it is not necessarily in conflict with the Bible or
Rabbinic literature.

I could go into this in more detail, but it seems thw Lubavitchers and
the early Christians reached a number of common conclusions
independently of one another.

Post by a***@gmail.com
In my opinion, anyone who says that Chrisians and Muslims worship a
different God has to be willing to say Christians worship a God
different from the Jews (which sounds really really weird).

Although there have been Orthodox Jews who have argued precisely that.
It is rather clear that the Christian understanding of the ontology of
the God of the Hebrew Bible is different from the interpretation most
Orthodox Jews draw from the same book.

Post by a***@gmail.com
So pretty clearly, Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob. If that's the same God that Christians believe in, then why is
there any problem?

Because the different faith communities say rather different things
about that God. However, in the future you might offer the following
question as potentially analogous: do Muslims and Christians recognize
the same man as Messiah? Indeed, on the one hand, it seems they do, but
as they do with God, they say contradictory things about the Messiah
(i.e. the respective claims the Muslims and Christians make are, at
times, in conflict with one another). I suppose that would take us into
a deeper philosophical debate about "rigid designators" a la Hilary
Putnam.

Eric Bohn

2006-06-26 02:48:42 UTC

Technically speaking, Jews do believe that God is incarnate since they
recognize the Spirit of God at work in the prophets. In fact, Jews
also believe (if they are being true to Hebrew tradition) in the
Christ, they simply do not recognize Jesus (or anyone else as far as I
know) as having fullfilled that prophecy.

The primary difference between Christians and Muslims is that
Christians recognize some major distinctions between Jesus and other
patriarchs, prophets, and kings. These distinctions are also pointed
to by Hebrew tradition, which is why so many Jews of the time believed
that Jesus was THE Christ (by definition -- the incarnation), or the
Messiah as proclaimed by the disciple Peter, the woman at the well, and
many others.

Christians believe that Jesus completes and gives meaning to all Hebrew
tradition -- the Law and the Prophets -- through Christian revelation.
So in a very real sense, Christians regard Jesus above all others in
the Hebrew tradition. Because Jesus Christ represents the complete
fullness of revelation, Christians recognize no prophets after Jesus
who do not similarly place Christ and his teaching above all others.

So Jews, Christians, and Muslims don't always worship the same God
since beliefs in some cases are different. However, all of these
faiths are derivative from the same Hebrew tradition.

Atruju

2006-06-27 00:31:09 UTC

Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God? I sometimes think not
all Christians worship the same God.

a***@gmail.com

2006-06-27 00:31:12 UTC

Denis Giron wrote:
in the future you might offer the following

Post by Denis Giron
question as potentially analogous: do Muslims and Christians recognize
the same man as Messiah? Indeed, on the one hand, it seems they do, but
as they do with God, they say contradictory things about the Messiah
(i.e. the respective claims the Muslims and Christians make are, at
times, in conflict with one another).

In the first case it seems pretty "obvious" that the same Jesus is
involved. Republicans and Democrats might disagree about a particular
president. One side might say "So-and-so is great, and wonderful and we
ought to put their image on Mount Rushmore" while the other side might
say "So-and-so is evil and stupid and ought to be burned in effigy".
They disagree radically but it is still clear they disagree about the
*same* person.

I would think about God the same way.

I can imagine perhaps more complicated theological situations where I
might want to argue that one conception of God is fundamentally
different from another (dualist vs. pantheism vs. monotheism vs.
Gnosticism) But in general when people say God they mean the supreme
being, the ultimate reality, the creator of heaven and earth, and more
specifically the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So personally I
would argue that Christians and Muslims obviously worship the same God
but just disagee about his nature.

Abdul-Halim

2006-07-03 01:50:19 UTC

B.G. Kent wrote:
The Christian God cannot possibly be one and the same as that of other
religions. Jesus claimed to be the only Son of God who was born of a
virgin, suffered and died on a cross for our sins and was raised to
life again. This leaves no room for Jesus to be just a prophet, or a
wise rabbi, or whatever else other religions may say. The question to
ask is "what does religion X say about Jesus - who was he"? You'll
quickly find that they cannot be speaking about the same Jesus.

2006-07-03 01:50:20 UTC

It's not possible that Christians and those practicing other religions
worship the same God. Jesus claimed to be the one and only Son of God
who was born of a virgin, suffered and died for our sins on a cross,
was raised from the dead 3 days later. The pertinent question to ask
of any religion is "who do they say Jesus is?". A close examination of
the response will show it is not the same Jesus of the Bible, therefore
not the same God.

suneejan

2006-07-04 04:53:23 UTC

I do believe the Jews do worship the same God but many of them do not
accept Christ as their savior. I pray ofen that God will open their
eyes to the truth of HIS Son. I wish the Jewish people would
understand that Isaiah 53 is a prophesy that points to Jesus as the
Messiah. A person must remember that Jesus was Jewish.

sonclad

2006-07-04 04:53:26 UTC

I would disagree abdul - the Muslims and Christians do NOT worship the
same God. A cursory examination of the two beliefs will expose them to
be at odds in many respects. The Koran says "heaven forbid that Allah
should have a son" (paraphrased). The Son of God (Jesus) is the focal
point of the Bible. Jesus cannot be just one of a host of prophets
(Muslim belief) and at the same time be above all the angels and the
creator of all that is (Bible). Allah is not the God of the Bible.

Post by a***@gmail.com
In the first case it seems pretty "obvious" that the same Jesus is
involved. Republicans and Democrats might disagree about a particular
president. One side might say "So-and-so is great, and wonderful and we
ought to put their image on Mount Rushmore" while the other side might
say "So-and-so is evil and stupid and ought to be burned in effigy".
They disagree radically but it is still clear they disagree about the
*same* person.
I would think about God the same way.

B.G. Kent

2006-07-04 04:53:27 UTC

Post by JC
It's not possible that Christians and those practicing other religions
worship the same God. Jesus claimed to be the one and only Son of God
who was born of a virgin, suffered and died for our sins on a cross,
was raised from the dead 3 days later. The pertinent question to ask
of any religion is "who do they say Jesus is?". A close examination of
the response will show it is not the same Jesus of the Bible, therefore
not the same God.

B - I disagree. There is ONE force...and we all worship a different aspect
or variation of that force. We manifest our vision of what God is...but
that God....is ONE. What you are saying about Jesus..is what has been
spoonfed to you for eons...it does not mean that it is truth or to be
taken literally. Mithas who was a close competitor faith God at the same
time as Jesus was said to be born of a virgin in the same situation as
Jesus. His story was BEFORE Jesus was ever born on this earth plane. To
gather those to ones faith..one tries to borrow ideas from others strong
faiths. They made the Goddess Brigid of Ireland a "Saint" to gather pagans
to the Catholic faith as well....many clery have been doing this from time
immemorable.

Jesus to me..was a man..a human man and like ALL of us..a son or daughter
of God. He was there to show us what we can become if we ditch the ego and
let our Christ selves shine through. That is enlightenment. When the ego
is dead..we are GOD. We ARE THE I AM. WE are all God..there is nothing BUT
God. This is not a better or worse than thing...everything that is...is
God in varying forms.

God is everywhere...therefore God is us. If God is not also us..then God
cannot be everywhere.

In my opinion.

Bren

--

B.G. Kent

2006-07-04 04:53:27 UTC

Post by JC
The Christian God cannot possibly be one and the same as that of other
religions. Jesus claimed to be the only Son of God who was born of a
virgin, suffered and died on a cross for our sins and was raised to
life again. This leaves no room for Jesus to be just a prophet, or a
wise rabbi, or whatever else other religions may say. The question to
ask is "what does religion X say about Jesus - who was he"? You'll
quickly find that they cannot be speaking about the same Jesus.

B - Please cut and paste correctly..I did NOT say the above. To me...God
is within all and surrounds all. To me there is only ONE force and many
personified variations or faces of that ONE force from all cultures. Like
a diamond has many facets that see clearly to the center..so does God have
many many faces....
God is the string that slides through many of the religious beads on the
necklace of humanity.

We ARE ONE.

I.M.O
Blessings
Bren

Post by JC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I suggest that it would be useful and illuminating to ask at the same
time, "Do Christians and Jews Worship the Same God?".

l***@hotmail.com

2006-07-05 03:21:22 UTC

Post by B.G. Kent
Jesus to me..was a man..a human man and like ALL of us.

And this is why so many of us have petitioned you to refrain from
grouping yourself with Christianity. You are not a Christian. You are
of the "New Age" sort of faith. Your mysticism is just another version
of some pseudo-spiritual rationalism. What you have exhibited in your
posts, Bren dear, is that you're a pantheist which is really little
different from a polytheist. You appear to have caught Huxley's cold
even as China did when Yen Fu translated his 'Principles of Evolution."

But as to the question of the thread, inorder for Muslims to believe
in the God of the Bible, they must cease in their refusal to recognize
that the Creator (Personal, not some "force") must also become the only
Redeemer and Savior. This can and was only accomplished through a
divine incarnation, sinless hman life, a substitutionary death and a
bodily resurrection of the Creator Himself, Jesus Christ. When one
studies origins, we find that Islam has great deal in common with
Zorasterism and the most ancient of religions, angelic
vistation/revelation. This was the great religion of Babel.

Like most of the other Eastern religions, though it in doctrine holds
to a literal interpretation of the opening chapters of Genesis and that
Jesus was true prophet from God, after a time its followers deify its
originator. And equal in comparision, Mohammed as with Gautama or
Confucius, Lao-Tse, is that all would be horrified at the thought of
their being deified. In fact, if it weren't for Khadija, Mohammed's
wife, it is very doubtful that the faith would ever have been
formulated, let alone survived his death. For Mohammed himself thought
that his revelations were products of Jinns, or sprites as was commonly
believed at that time by both Arab poets and soothsayers. Though I'm
sure most Muslim's will cringe at the mention of it, Margoliouth in his
work, "Mohammad" argued, "there is reason to believe that his symptoms
of revelation (the descriptions of which closely resemble epilepsy)
were artifically produced and that certain accompanying effects were at
times stage-managed." (p 81). Anderson in "Islam," in "The World's
Religions" alternatively notes, "the phenomena may be explained as
symptions of intermittent spirit-possession, as claimed by modern
spiritist mediums."

What ever the source, Mohammad's A;;ah is vastly different than YHVH of
the OT.

Gordon

2006-07-05 03:21:22 UTC

More on this...

Koran, Sura 4:156 And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the
Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, an Apostles of God.' Yet they
slew him not. and they crucified him not, but they had only his
likeness.

By this and other similar passages they accuse Jesus and his
followers of being liars and deceivers, using a look-alike
sacrifice to deceive the people into believing that Jesus was
crucified, then raised from the dead.

Yet their Koran refers to Jesus as one of the major prophets. How
could a major prophet be a liar and a deceiver?

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 04:53:26 GMT, sonclad

Post by sonclad
I would disagree abdul - the Muslims and Christians do NOT worship the
same God. A cursory examination of the two beliefs will expose them to
be at odds in many respects. The Koran says "heaven forbid that Allah
should have a son" (paraphrased). The Son of God (Jesus) is the focal
point of the Bible. Jesus cannot be just one of a host of prophets
(Muslim belief) and at the same time be above all the angels and the
creator of all that is (Bible). Allah is not the God of the Bible.

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-05 03:21:22 UTC

Post by sonclad
I would disagree abdul - the Muslims and Christians do NOT worship the
same God. A cursory examination of the two beliefs will expose them to
be at odds in many respects.

At least in my mind, saying that Muslims and Christians worship
different Gods is a much stronger statement than saying that Muslims
and Christians disagree. Republicans and Democrats may disagree in
terms of their opinions of George Bush but they are still talking about
the same person. I would suggest that Muslims and Christians can be
thought of the same way. The Quran clearly is talking about Allah as
the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who created the heavens and earth
and everything that is. If that's the God you worship, then you worship
the same God.

Abdul-Halim

Emma Pease

2006-07-05 03:21:23 UTC

Given the above reasoning, Jews don't worship the same God as
Christians. Now that may be your belief but I believe it is a
somewhat rare one for a Christian in this century.

I also have to point out that Allah is just Arabic for God. Arabic
speaking Christians worship Allah (and one who has a son).

I think the most one can accurately say is that

1. Almost all Christians and Muslims think they worship the same God
as Jews
2. Almost all Muslims think that Christians worship the same God as
them but that they also worship a human, Jesus, in the incorrect
belief that he is also God. Jesus in their view is a major prophet
but not divine.
3. Christians are divided about whether Muslims worship the same God
as them or not. Some seem to be under the misapprehension that
Muslims worship Mohammed as God which is not correct.
4. I'm not sure what the various opinions of Jews are towards the
other two religions in regards to God.
5. Some Christians think some other Christians don't worship the same
God as they do (I'm using Christian to describe anyone who calls
themselves Christian and one example I'm thinking of is the attitudes
towards Mormons by other Christians).

I'll leave it up to each Christian, Muslim, or Jew to presume to speak
for what the God they believe in considers to be worshiping him.

Emma

--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht

Matthew Johnson

2006-07-05 03:21:25 UTC

B - Please cut and paste correctly..I did NOT say the above. To me...God
is within all and surrounds all.

But this is quite irrelevant, since YOU do not worship the same God that
Christians do. And I expect most Muslims will agree that you do not worship the
same God Muslims do, but that would be a better topic for the Muslim NG.

[snip]

--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

B.G. Kent

2006-07-05 03:21:26 UTC

Post by suneejan
I do believe the Jews do worship the same God but many of them do not
accept Christ as their savior. I pray ofen that God will open their
eyes to the truth of HIS Son. I wish the Jewish people would
understand that Isaiah 53 is a prophesy that points to Jesus as the
Messiah. A person must remember that Jesus was Jewish.

B - It may be better to pray that you reach enlightenment and don't pray
for others that don't ask you to...for you are interfering in their own
free will. Take care of yourself.....teach by example instead of words.

I.M.O
Bren

sonclad

2006-07-06 02:19:58 UTC

Abdul - if we both claim to know George Bush and we clarify that we
both mean the President, and then I say he has twin daughters and you
insist that he doesn't. Either:
1) we are both wrong
2) one of us is right and the other is wrong

Both of us cannot be right. The Koran says Allah doesn't have a son.
The Bible says God does have a Son - Jesus. These cannot be reconciled
as Allah = God of the Bible. It's simple logic.

Post by sonclad
I would disagree abdul - the Muslims and Christians do NOT worship the
same God. A cursory examination of the two beliefs will expose them to
be at odds in many respects.

l***@hotmail.com

2006-07-06 02:19:58 UTC

Post by Emma Pease
Given the above reasoning, Jews don't worship the same God as
Christians. Now that may be your belief but I believe it is a
somewhat rare one for a Christian in this century.

If one has any involvement and dialogue with Jews today, then such a
conclusion is without warrant. Clearly, the majority of Jews today do
not believe or place their trust in what we Christian's would state as
the God of the Bible. Judaism, for the most part, today is only
nominally committed to the OT and even less so to a literally reading
of the Creation story of Genesis. Rare indeed is it to find a Jew
today, other than a Messianic Jew, who believes in creationism.

But we should not be surprised by this given their recent history. As
most know, there are 3 main "denominations" or divisions within
modern Jewry. There is the Orthodox, the Conservative and the
Reform. It is really only a remnant within the first of these which
believes in a literal interpretation of Gen and even smaller yet,
a remnant that believes in a Personal Messiah. Probably most
rare is a Jew who yet lives in a Divine Messianic hope. The Nazi
Holocaust and the subsequent dispersa, esp into area's east of
Germany, esp Russia, has had quite a profound effect on the
Jewish "religion." In ch. 2 of Anderson's "World Religions,"
Luener's "Judaism" states on p. 46:

It is, however, not so much the deified materialism of Marx that
claims most of those Jews who have given up their faith, but the
fashionable pseudo-religious systems of humanitarianism,
spiritism, Christian Science, Freemasonry, etc., or sheer
indifference to anything that savours of human recognition
of a power outside oneself."

Even with the Orthodox ranks, the extreme Hassidic division
holds to one of a few theistic evolutionary models. Any idea of
a Jewish Messiah, as being an incarnation of the Creator, has
all but been abandoned. An easy reference supporting this is
the authoritative, "Jewish Encyclopedia." Quoting:

The doctrine of the Messiah is allied to that of physical evolution or
Darwinism, and to that of political development, which looks forward to
an omnipotent or just League of Nations that shall make peace
universal. . . . .What is called the doctrine of the Messiah is, in
reality, the belief in progress and hope." [pages 335 and 423]

Post by Emma Pease
I also have to point out that Allah is just Arabic for God. Arabic
speaking Christians worship Allah (and one who has a son).
I think the most one can accurately say is that
1. Almost all Christians and Muslims think they worship the same God
as Jews

Not "informed" or conservatively educated Christians.

Post by Emma Pease
2. Almost all Muslims think that Christians worship the same God as
them but that they also worship a human, Jesus, in the incorrect
belief that he is also God. Jesus in their view is a major prophet
but not divine.

And if they hold to their Koran and their leaders, they will, of a
heretical nature, have to separate themselves from Christianity and
its followers. True Biblical Christianity can have no intercourse
with Islam for it is a radical faith which will not stand for any
synthetic morphing with other faiths.

Post by Emma Pease
3. Christians are divided about whether Muslims worship the same God
as them or not. Some seem to be under the misapprehension that
Muslims worship Mohammed as God which is not correct.

It doesn't matter what "Christians" believe. Biblical Christianity is
absolute in its gospel. There is but one name under heaven whereby
to be saved.

Post by Emma Pease
4. I'm not sure what the various opinions of Jews are towards the
other two religions in regards to God.

I would surmise that the majority of "religious" Jews yet retain the
Sarah - Hagar division.

Post by Emma Pease
5. Some Christians think some other Christians don't worship the same
God as they do (I'm using Christian to describe anyone who calls
themselves Christian and one example I'm thinking of is the attitudes
towards Mormons by other Christians).

Mormons are no more Christian than Jehovah (false) Witnesses. These
are not even heresies, they are cults. And in that they pervert the
Scriptures
to defend their doctrinal views, what they think is of not import.
This is
why I have stated Biblical Christianity is radical. It will not
support any
sort of reductionism. Either you accept the Gospel or your reject it.
There
is no second or third way. There is but one Way.

Post by Emma Pease
I'll leave it up to each Christian, Muslim, or Jew to presume to speak
for what the God they believe in considers to be worshiping him.

To not believe in the God of the Bible is to believe in an idol. To
get
the wrong answer to the question, "What is God like" is to remain in
one's sin. Sin is not what one does. Sin is what one is. Sin is
insisting upon an image of God which does not correspond to
what He has revealed. And the only special revelation given to men
by God, is the inspired Word of God, i.e. Christian scriptures. All
idolatry finds its genesis in the mind therefore an idol of the mind,
that is, believing in God other than He has declared Himself, is the
most offense idol of all. The opening commandments of the
Decalogue cannot be melted down by modern thinking to equating
the "10 suggestions." Either you believe the God of the bible or
you follow after the "Father of lies."

B.G. Kent

2006-07-06 02:20:00 UTC

Post by B.G. Kent
Jesus to me..was a man..a human man and like ALL of us.

And this is why so many of us have petitioned you to refrain from
grouping yourself with Christianity. You are not a Christian.

B -Actually I believe only about four people on this whole newsgroup
have...because most people here are tolerant and respectful to others and
have lives where they
don't have to tell others how to live. I am a Christian.

Thanks and God be with you,

I.M.O
Bren

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-07 01:18:15 UTC

I agree. But we are still talking about the same person. And even
though Christians and Muslims and Jews agree and disagree about certain
theological statements, I think we can still say that we are talking
about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

-Abdul-Halim

Matthew Johnson

2006-07-07 01:18:16 UTC

Post by B.G. Kent
Jesus to me..was a man..a human man and like ALL of us.

And this is why so many of us have petitioned you to refrain from
grouping yourself with Christianity. You are not a Christian.

B -Actually I believe only about four people on this whole newsgroup
have..

And I believe you cannot count.

.because most people here are tolerant and respectful to others and

Post by B.G. Kent
have lives where they
don't have to tell others how to live.

Well, you are certainly not among the tolerant and respectful. This last comment
of yours proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

What a pity you could not use your head before clicking 'send', Brenda! What
kind of 'respect' do you think you show us by insinuating that we do not "have
lives"?

No, Brenda, with such a childish insinuation, you show that you do nto really
know what 'respect' even means.

Post by B.G. Kent
I am a Christian.

No, you are not.

--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

r***@yahoo.com

2006-07-07 01:18:17 UTC

Post by sonclad
I would disagree abdul - the Muslims and Christians do NOT worship the
same God. A cursory examination of the two beliefs will expose them to
be at odds in many respects.

if I remember correctly, shirk, which is basically idolatry, is the
biggest sin one can commit under Islam.
I don't see people today really making idols out of wood or stone,
and claiming them to be gods, but most people do indeed fashion their
own gods using mental constructs. For example, they may roughly base
their idea of God on the bible: "my god is a god of love", but then
they may not like any concept of judgment or hell, so they will toss
that out and say "but my god isn't a god of judgment or he
wouldn't send anyone to hell".

Of course there may be people who believe those things based on what
they believe the bible says as well, but many simply don't like
certain concepts so they choose not to ascribe those traits to their
concept of god.
That is idolatry. One invents a god that he can believe in. He
doesn't construct it out of material goods, but he makes a mental
construct that is every bit as useless as a god of wood or metal.

Since God must be non-physical, we as humans can have knowledge of him
only through revelation. We begin to grasp who God is mentally through
things that are revealed to us. But our concept of God is a mental
construct that develops as more is revealed to us.

Given that God is a mental construct, a conception [and I don't of
course mean that God is merely a mental construct] how our concepts are
constructed will determine whether we are worshipping the same God or
not.
It is true that both Muslims and Christians worship a concept that is
creator, omniscient, omnipotent, etc, but there are some very
significant conceptual differences as well.

I think that is why we can reasonably say that we worship different
Gods. Because we worship different conceptions of God. Undoubtedly both
camps believe there are not 2 separate Gods, we both accept that there
is only one, and it is true that we disagree about the nature of God,
but given the differences, Islam would definitely call the Christian
conception shirk/idolatry, which would lead me to believe they don't
believe we are really worshipping God, but some false construct- an
idol. Likewise, I cannot accept the Islamic conception of God, I
believe it is a false construct.
Of course there are certain common points, but other important
distinctions that would rule out the God of the Qur'an, as being
acceptable to me.

dave

l***@hotmail.com

2006-07-07 01:18:18 UTC

Post by B.G. Kent
I am a Christian.

It is the gospel which determines whether one is a Christian or not.
In that you do not believe Jesus to be the Creator God incarnate, you
are not a Christian according to the gospel of Jesus Himself or his
disciples. The gospel is an "everlasting gospel," the very same gospel
which was revealed to Adam and Eve in Paradise, namely the protevangel
(Gen 3:15). It is the salvific gospel preached by Paul, stressing the
substitiutionary death, burial and resurrection of the Creator God,
Jesus Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4). It is the "gospel of the kingdom" (Mt
4:23) and the "gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24). It is the
gospel preached before "unto Abraham" (Gal 3:8). The everlasting
gospel is the good tidings of the wonderful work of God through His
Exegete, Christ on behalf of the redeemed, from creation to
consummation.

The final occurance of the word is Rev 14:6-7 wherein John calls it
"everlasting" stressing that it is timeless and embracing all of God's
purposes and design from eternity to eternity. "Worship the One who
is the Creator of all thing," the agnel cries speaking of the Lord
Jesus Chrost. "For by Him were all things created" (Col 1:16.

In that you refuse to recognize Jesus Christ as the one true God,
Creator of the all that exists outside of God, as being the second
*Person* of the Trinity, you are not a Christian in reality, only in a
psuedo "tickle my ears" sort of mentality. Your version of
"christianity" will not get you out of His coming wrath against the
wicked. You must recognize Him for who He is in Truth and you must
acknowledge that you personally accept Him as both Lord and Savior and
repent to Him of your sin. It is PERSONAL.

B.G. Kent

2006-07-07 01:18:19 UTC

Post by sonclad
Abdul - if we both claim to know George Bush and we clarify that we
both mean the President, and then I say he has twin daughters and you
1) we are both wrong
2) one of us is right and the other is wrong
Both of us cannot be right. The Koran says Allah doesn't have a son.
The Bible says God does have a Son - Jesus. These cannot be reconciled
as Allah = God of the Bible. It's simple logic.

B - Does it ever occur to you that you both could be wrong and in that you
have a unity?

Bren

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-10 04:51:12 UTC

Post by r***@yahoo.com
if I remember correctly, shirk, which is basically idolatry, is the
biggest sin one can commit under Islam.

Yup.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
I don't see people today really making idols out of wood or stone,
and claiming them to be gods, but most people do indeed fashion their
own gods using mental constructs.

Yup.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
It is true that both Muslims and Christians worship a concept that is
creator, omniscient, omnipotent, etc, but there are some very
significant conceptual differences as well.

Yup.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
Undoubtedly both
camps believe there are not 2 separate Gods, we both accept that there
is only one, and it is true that we disagree about the nature of God,
but given the differences, Islam would definitely call the Christian
conception shirk/idolatry, which would lead me to believe they don't
believe we are really worshipping God, but some false construct-

I'm Muslim, and while I definitely have theological disagreements with
Christianity, those still aren't so significant that I would want to go
around saying that Jews and Christians worship a different God. Even in
the context of the orginal revelation of Islam, many of the the pagans
(mushriks, those who commit shirk) who were not even Christian or
Jewish still worshiped Allah. (Allah was worshiped even before
Muhammad) The Quran doesn't categorically say that they worshiped some
different God necessarily. The Quran describes their mistaken beliefs
but still acknowledges that they are talking about a common reality.

For example, the Quran says:

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the
Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day
and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there
is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Jews and Christians here are included in "whoever believes in Allah".

Personally, when I hear this language of Christians and Muslims
believing in different Gods it seems like it is laying the groundwork
for some really offensive xenophobic attitudes.. often rooted in
ignorance... like the silly but all-too-common "Allah is a moon God"
type of nonsense.

Let me repeat a question I asked earlier in this thread to get your
specific response. If you say Muslims and Christians worship different
Gods are you also willing to say that religious Jews and Christians
also worship different Gods?

Abdul-Halim
www.planetgrenada.blogspot.com

suneejan

2006-07-10 04:51:12 UTC

I agree with you Isend. A person needs to have a personnal relationship
with Jesus. At that point the scriptures will come alive and make
sense. Bren, I hope you listen to Isend. Asknowledge your wrong
doings. Acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God who died for your
sins. Ask God for forgiveness and ask HIM in yourheart. This is the
key to salvation...It is personnal. Jesus came to earth to die for
your sins so that you can have a personnal relationship with Him. HE
frees us born again christains from Gods wrath which is coming soon.

Suneejan<><

Post by B.G. Kent
I am a Christian.

...

Post by l***@hotmail.com
In that you refuse to recognize Jesus Christ as the one true God,
Creator of the all that exists outside of God, as being the second
*Person* of the Trinity, you are not a Christian in reality, only in a
psuedo "tickle my ears" sort of mentality. Your version of
"christianity" will not get you out of His coming wrath against the
wicked. You must recognize Him for who He is in Truth and you must
acknowledge that you personally accept Him as both Lord and Savior and
repent to Him of your sin. It is PERSONAL.

B.G. Kent

2006-07-10 04:51:12 UTC

Post by B.G. Kent
I am a Christian.

It is the gospel which determines whether one is a Christian or not.

B - I believe it is God. That's where we differ..you worship a book..I
worship God.

Blessings
Bren

j***@westnet.com.au

2006-07-10 04:51:15 UTC

B - Does it ever occur to you that you both could be wrong and in that you
have a unity?
Bren

They both worship the same entity-their ignorance and imagination.

suneejan

2006-07-11 03:45:11 UTC

Isend is correct. A true christian has a personnal relationship with
Christ. I have asked Christ into my heart and I know that when I die
that I will go to heaven 1John 5:11-13. The scriptures, the holy
bible, is there to meditate on for instruction and encouragement.
2Timothy 3:15-16. This reading of the word and meditation does not
qualify as worship but a tool to get to learn of things of God. Are
you a true believer? What do you base your belives on? If it just your
experiences, what happens to people with different experiences than
you?
SuneeJan

Post by B.G. Kent
I am a Christian.

It is the gospel which determines whether one is a Christian or not.

B - I believe it is God. That's where we differ..you worship a book..I
worship God.
Blessings
Bren

B.G. Kent

2006-07-11 03:45:12 UTC

Post by suneejan
I agree with you Isend. A person needs to have a personnal relationship
with Jesus. At that point the scriptures will come alive and make

Dear Suneejan...I listen to God.

Blessings
Bren

sonclad

2006-07-11 03:45:13 UTC

B - Does it ever occur to you that you both could be wrong and in that you
have a unity?
Bren

We can both sum up the same set of numbers and both come to different
and incorrect results, but somehow I don't find such unity to be
reassuring. Relativism is self-refuting.

sonclad

2006-07-11 03:45:13 UTC

if I remember correctly, shirk, which...

Abdul - Please be careful in your quotes. I didn't say the above.

Post by a***@gmail.com
Jews and Christians here are included in "whoever believes in Allah".

I don't believe in Allah, but I believe in God of the Bible - they're
not the same.

Post by a***@gmail.com
Personally, when I hear this language of Christians and Muslims
believing in different Gods it seems like it is laying the groundwork
for some really offensive xenophobic attitudes.. often rooted in
ignorance... like the silly but all-too-common "Allah is a moon God"
type of nonsense.

Why do you presume to be correct in your position - to the point of
saying those who maintain that there is a difference between God and
Allah are afraid of the unknown and ignorant? Why should others bow
before the alter of political correctness as you do?

Post by a***@gmail.com
Let me repeat a question I asked earlier in this thread to get your
specific response. If you say Muslims and Christians worship different
Gods are you also willing to say that religious Jews and Christians
also worship different Gods?

No - Jews and Christians worship the same God, but there is some
difference in recognition of the promised Messiah.

John

2006-07-11 03:45:13 UTC

Post by j***@westnet.com.au

Hello everyone, my name is Benedict and I am from Singapore. I live in a
country where many religions dwell together and no one fights about
who's God is mightier or Who is right or wrong. Therefore, it gave me
many opportunities to meet and talk to different religious people to
casually ask questions and answer at the same time. I was born a Roman
Catholic, am now a Presbyterian.

I like to add my point of view. All people pray to God. All who are
religious believes in God. Different people from different backgrounds,
cultures, could be the contributing cause for the differences in the way
they pray.

I mean, all religions teaches you to be good and to live life the right
way. To me, Islam is as peaceful as all religions. It is people who try
to misconstrue the word of God(Allah) for their own selfish needs, which
also in my opinion is Satan(shaitons) way of disrupting what the Lord is
trying to do for his people. That s what I believe.

It's like Joseph is Yusof, Maria is Mary, Sulaiman is Solomon, it's just
that certain text of some great differences is written which causes the
harmonization of civilization. Could always be that the person who wrote
those words made an honest mistake, heard wrongly perhaps. It s like
when Judas scripts were found, in some ways, it was yet a different way
to look the scenario when Jesus (ISA) wanted to select "One" to Betray
him. I use the word select because if everyone else does not "Betray"
him, Jesus would not have been able to fulfill his destiny. Yet, modern
day interpretation of "Betray" is used most often as a negative thing,
which I believe is true, but in that situation Jesus was in, and in that
context, I think Jesus was selecting one of them to do what must be done
so that he can fulfill his destiny.

I hope I did not offend anyone, the Lord has given me unconditional
love, which is the freedom to do as I will. I too seek knowledge and I
too am human and can make mistakes.

B - Does it ever occur to you that you both could be wrong and in that you
have a unity?
Bren

They both worship the same entity-their ignorance and imagination.

r***@yahoo.com

2006-07-11 03:45:14 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I'm Muslim, and while I definitely have theological disagreements with
Christianity, those still aren't so significant that I would want to go
around saying that Jews and Christians worship a different God. Even in
the context of the orginal revelation of Islam, many of the the pagans
(mushriks, those who commit shirk) who were not even Christian or
Jewish still worshiped Allah. (Allah was worshiped even before
Muhammad) The Quran doesn't categorically say that they worshiped some
different God necessarily. The Quran describes their mistaken beliefs
but still acknowledges that they are talking about a common reality.

I don't remember if I stated it or not, but I of course accept the
"common reality". I obviously don't believe there are 2 separate
gods, only one true God that we are considering. And I accept from a
certain point that the issue is how we consider this one true God.

That is a good question. When talking purely of the mental construct, I
would have to say it's possible we are worshipping different Gods.
Though I am not sure, since I don't really know the inner thoughts of
Judaism on this. I have studied the Bible, not Judaism.

I suppose the reason we don't think of it as a different God with
Judaism is that we still share at least the same common scriptures, so
it truly is an argument over how those scriptures are read, and how the
attributes of YHVH are understood. Whereas in Islam, the Qu'ran alone
defines God.

I'm not going to get stubborn over this; I can actually see your
point. If we are talking about the true God, yes we all are trying to
worship the one true God. So we are talking about the same reality. But
if we are talking about mental constructs, then we are talking about
different Gods.

If I want to carry it further, then I suppose many individual
Christians can and do have different Gods, because their mental
constructs can have radically different attributes. So I suppose I
could also narrow it down to what we allow to define God. That goes
back to the revelation, for Judaism, tanakh, for Christians, the tanakh
and the NT, for muslims, the qu'ran.

Matthew Johnson

2006-07-11 03:45:14 UTC

Post by j***@westnet.com.au

[snip]

Post by sonclad
Both of us cannot be right. The Koran says Allah doesn't have a son.
The Bible says God does have a Son - Jesus. These cannot be reconciled
as Allah = God of the Bible. It's simple logic.

They both worship the same entity-their ignorance and imagination.

There is a certain kind of ignorance that makes that answer _easy_ to give! But
no, it is not true. Rather, as St. Symeon the New Theologian pointed out _so_
long ago:

For those who view carnally, God is nowhere, since He is invisible;
but for those who understand spiritually, He is everywhere,
for He is omnipresent. He is in everything and outside of everything,
because He is "at hand for those who fear him,(Psa 85:9 RSVA)",
but "His salvation is far from sinners (Psa 118:155)"

So those who insist on viewing everything carnally will never see Him.

--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

Matthew Johnson

2006-07-12 02:06:35 UTC

Post by suneejan
I agree with you Isend. A person needs to have a personnal relationship
with Jesus. At that point the scriptures will come alive and make

Dear Suneejan...I listen to God.

So you love to claim. But then you teach depravity, where God teaches chastity.
So who will believe you?

--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

B.G. Kent

2006-07-12 02:06:36 UTC

Post by sonclad
We can both sum up the same set of numbers and both come to different
and incorrect results, but somehow I don't find such unity to be
reassuring. Relativism is self-refuting.

B - perhaps both of you then can have peace in a trust that God loves you
both and will take your attempts and intentions over "sticking to the
letter" of a text as more indicative of your souls progress.

Bren

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-13 02:16:43 UTC

if I remember correctly, shirk, which...

Abdul - Please be careful in your quotes. I didn't say the above.

My apologies.

Post by a***@gmail.com
Jews and Christians here are included in "whoever believes in Allah".

I don't believe in Allah, but I believe in God of the Bible - they're
not the same.

"Allah" is merely the word for "God" in Arabic. Christians in the
Middle East pray to Allah as well.

No - Jews and Christians worship the same God, but there is some
difference in recognition of the promised Messiah.

I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are. The Quran teaches that Jesus was
the messiah, the word of god, born of a virgin, who healed the sick,
raised the dead (with God's permission) ascended into heaven and will
come again in the last days. Muslims don't believe in the Incarnation
or the Trinity but then again, neither do Jews.

1 John 5:1 says "Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a
child of God" and Muslims believe Jesus is the Christ.

Abdul-Halim

www.planetgrenada.blogspot.com

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-13 02:16:44 UTC

Post by r***@yahoo.com
I don't remember if I stated it or not, but I of course accept the
"common reality". I obviously don't believe there are 2 separate
gods, only one true God that we are considering. And I accept from a
certain point that the issue is how we consider this one true God.

Yes, I agre.

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Yes, that would a piece of common ground between Jews and Christians
not shared by Muslims... to a point. The Quran still refers to the
Psalms, and the Torah and the Gospel but what is meant by those terms
is subject to debate.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
Whereas in Islam, the Qu'ran alone
defines God.

Yes and no. God certainly existed before the Quran was revealed to
Muhammad.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
I'm not going to get stubborn over this; I can actually see your
point. If we are talking about the true God, yes we all are trying to
worship the one true God. So we are talking about the same reality. But
if we are talking about mental constructs, then we are talking about
different Gods.

Yes, I can see your point as well. But then I would suggest that it is
wiser to look at the reality more than the mental constructs.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
If I want to carry it further, then I suppose many individual
Christians can and do have different Gods, because their mental
constructs can have radically different attributes.

Right. Just personally I would tend to go towards the inclusive end
than the restrictive one. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bahais all have
the "same God". You'd have to get pretty radical before I would say
that the Gods were "different". For example, for some Gnostics, Jesus
and the Serpent in the Garden are on the same side and both were sent
by the real God. But the God of Israel who created the world is seen as
evil (or blind or crazy). Or once you get to religions which are
totally non-Abrahamic I might say they are "different".

So I suppose I

Post by r***@yahoo.com
could also narrow it down to what we allow to define God. That goes
back to the revelation, for Judaism, tanakh, for Christians, the tanakh
and the NT, for muslims, the qu'ran.

But didn't the patriarchs have their definiing experiences with God
before the Torah was written? That actually reminds me of a verse of
the Quran...

O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the
Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no
sense?
Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man
who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
(3:65,67)

Abdul-Halim
www.planetgrenada.blogspot.com

r***@yahoo.com

2006-07-14 03:03:20 UTC

Yes, I can see your point as well. But then I would suggest that it is
wiser to look at the reality more than the mental constructs.

But how can we "look at the reality" apart from revelation?
How does any of us know anything about God other than He reveals
himself?

I mean the Bible states in Romans 1 that creation itself reveals Gods
invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature, so certainly
men are capable and accountable based on this, but beyond that, the
only way we know anything is because God makes it known.
Part of my argument earlier was that given Gods spiritual/non-physical
nature, mental constructs are an inescapable part of our "image" of
God, and therefore what/how we worship.
There is no looking at the reality apart from revelation and if the
revelations are different, then the picture of God is different.

3 men who have constructed idols can all call their idols by the same
name: the one true God, but the idols are different in reality, even if
not in name.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
So I suppose I could also narrow it down to what we allow
to define God. That goes back to the revelation, for Judaism,
tanakh, for Christians, the tanakh and the NT,
for muslims, the qu'ran.

But didn't the patriarchs have their definiing experiences with God
before the Torah was written?

Sort of a moot point. The patriarchs received a revelation from God. It
was written down and became part of Tanakh. If God reveals himself to
men, then I think it would be natural to accept that he would do so
progressively, rather than in one shot, since there may be a lot he
would want to share. Even the Qur'an, though revealed over a shorter
period, came in installations.
So over time, the picture Israel received of God gets fuller and
fuller. We as Christians believe that the NT is the completion of the
picture. And I say that meaning that the OT revealed there was a coming
messiah, which Israel was waiting for, and the NT revealed who that
messiah is and his means of salvation, not that we now know everything
there is to know about God.

Perhaps at the first visions muhammed had, there would not have been
enough information to distinguish whether he was talking about the same
God or a different god, but as the Qur'an was finalized, it became
clear that the picture is not of the same god, even though the title is
the same.

I know islam considers itself a completion of all the revelation, but
basic study of both will lead one to the inescapable conclusion that
Islam isn't a completion of anything the NT had to say, it is a
different gospel altogether. Even the idea of calling Isa,
"messiah" might seem like Islam recognizes the NT claim, but when I
learn what that means in Islam, it just doesn't mean the same thing.
Same name, but different meaning.

Returning to the concept of shirk, as a Trinitarian, I assume Islam
would consider me an idolater. So I am not, according to islam,
worshipping Allah, but some false god. Since the trinity is a pretty
basic Christian concept, and it is also called idolatry, then I would
think islam itself is teaching that we worship a different god.

Well, I'm off to vacation for a few weeks, so I won't get to
participate in this discussion till then. Take care Abdul-Halim,

dave

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-17 17:05:11 UTC

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Yes, I can see your point as well. But then I would suggest that it is
wiser to look at the reality more than the mental constructs.

Exactly.

but beyond that, the

Post by r***@yahoo.com
only way we know anything is because God makes it known.
Part of my argument earlier was that given Gods spiritual/non-physical
nature, mental constructs are an inescapable part of our "image" of
God, and therefore what/how we worship.

So would you be willing to say that *you* don't worship the real God,
you just worship your own mental constuct?

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by a***@gmail.com
But didn't the patriarchs have their definiing experiences with God
before the Torah was written?

Would you say that there is more than one George Bush? (Bush for
Republicans, Bush for Democrats, Bush for Socialists, etc.)

Post by r***@yahoo.com
I know islam considers itself a completion of all the revelation, but
basic study of both will lead one to the inescapable conclusion that
Islam isn't a completion of anything the NT had to say, it is a
different gospel altogether.

I don't think the idea of completion is really a relevant issue.
Between any two religions you are going to find similarities and
differences.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
Even the idea of calling Isa,
"messiah" might seem like Islam recognizes the NT claim, but when I
learn what that means in Islam, it just doesn't mean the same thing.
Same name, but different meaning.

I'm sure there are plenty of Jews who make similar accusations against
Christians.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
Returning to the concept of shirk, as a Trinitarian, I assume Islam
would consider me an idolater. So I am not, according to islam,
worshipping Allah, but some false god.

No, I addressed this earlier. Shirk is "associating others with God".
So if you read the Quran, it talks about idolators worshiping Allah but
believing incorrect things about him. Muslims generally don't accuse
Christians of following a false good.

Abdul-Halim

l***@hotmail.com

2006-07-17 17:05:12 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are.

This is simply not true. Now it needs to be clarified that there are
"christian's" and then there are Biblical Christians. Of the later,
there is no kinsmanship with the Muslim while there is with the Jew,
especially a Messianic or believing Jew.

Biblically, a Jew can be a believing Christian and remain a Jew but
that is not so with Muslim. As soon as anyone, whether Gentile (which
includes Muslims) or Jew believes in Jesus as their personal Mediator,
the Creator of all that is outside of God, and accepts for themselves
the washing of Christ's vicarious blood sacrifice, the become
Christians. However, because the promises were given to Abraham,
Isaac, Jacob and David, the Jew retains his/her identity within
national Israel. Israel was elected as a nation and that election is
eternal. Isaac, not Ishmael was the son of the promise. The promise of
Kinsman Redeemer was given to Israel, not to the sons of Ishmael. That
Redeemer is the Messiah, the same Messiah that Jews look for and
Christian's have found. How then can you compare Islam with
Christianity?

initiate

2006-07-17 17:05:14 UTC

Peace,

Charles Hedrick by posting in SRI made this newsgroup
known, and finding this thread, I feel obliged to participate
with something.

Post by a***@gmail.com
"Allah" is merely the word for "God" in Arabic. Christians in the
Middle East pray to Allah as well.

That is true, however, but Islam has "the Divine
attributes of God" or the 99 fine names of Allah
which I am not sure what the Christian reaction
to it. Muslims, however, do not accept the "Allah
with a son" concept of God. So while the word is
the same, the concept of God is what matters.

Gordon

2006-07-18 03:59:56 UTC

Post by initiate
Peace,
Charles Hedrick by posting in SRI made this newsgroup
known, and finding this thread, I feel obliged to participate
with something.

Post by a***@gmail.com
"Allah" is merely the word for "God" in Arabic. Christians in the
Middle East pray to Allah as well.

It truly seems the Muslim teaching is that their Allah can
not...does not have the power, or what ever, to manifest in the
form of more than one entity. Yet they believe that humans have
such power. That is, they believe that their mind and their
spirit can be separated from their body, but Allah can not do
such a thing. In this respect they put themselves above their
god. The Koran teaches that a Muslim hominid has Mind, Body and
Spirit, three separate facets, but their god has only one
singular form.

Gordon

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-18 03:59:57 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are.

When I say "Jew" I mean someone who believes in the religion of
Judaism. The people you are talking about above are people who are
ethnically Jewish but in other respects Christians.

I mean, the way you are using "Jew" any comparison would be
meaningless. After all, there are ethnic Jews who have become Muslim
(like Muhammad Asad or Maryam Jameelah) or Buddhist or Hindu or Sikh or
Wiccan....etc.

According to the Quran, Jesus was the messiah, brought the Gospel, who
healed the sick, raised the dead, was born of a virgin, ascended into
heaven and will come again in the last days.
That's a basic part of Islamic teaching, but it is something which
would be absolutely rejected by a religious Jew. That's what I meant by
saying that Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism is to
Christianity.

Gordon

2006-07-19 02:26:45 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are.

This is simply not true. Now it needs to be clarified that there are
"christian's" and then there are Biblical Christians. Of the later,
there is no kinsmanship with the Muslim while there is with the Jew,
especially a Messianic or believing Jew.
Biblically, a Jew can be a believing Christian and remain a Jew but
that is not so with Muslim. As soon as anyone, whether Gentile (which
includes Muslims) or Jew believes in Jesus as their personal Mediator,
the Creator of all that is outside of God, and accepts for themselves
the washing of Christ's vicarious blood sacrifice, the become
Christians. However, because the promises were given to Abraham,
Isaac, Jacob and David, the Jew retains his/her identity within
national Israel. Israel was elected as a nation and that election is
eternal. Isaac, not Ishmael was the son of the promise. The promise of
Kinsman Redeemer was given to Israel, not to the sons of Ishmael. That
Redeemer is the Messiah, the same Messiah that Jews look for and
Christian's have found. How then can you compare Islam with
Christianity?

The Koran has many passages that express the Muslim attitude
toward Christians and Jews. Here's a typical one

Sura 5:56 O Believers! take not the Jews or Christians as
friends. They are but one another's friends. If any one of you
taketh them for his friends, he surely is one of them! God will
not guide the evil doers.

Post by l***@hotmail.com
From the J.M. Rodwell translation from the Arabic. Copyrighted

1994.

Gordon

Bob

2006-07-19 03:07:52 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are.

The divide between Christian beliefs can be wider than the divide
between Christian/Muslim beliefs. Even "biblical christians" argue the
meaning of the bible. How then can one compare Christian and Muslim
beliefs when there is no concensus of what those beliefs are?

Bob

zach

2006-07-19 03:07:54 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
According to the Quran, Jesus was the messiah, brought the Gospel, who
healed the sick, raised the dead, was born of a virgin, ascended into
heaven and will come again in the last days.
That's a basic part of Islamic teaching, but it is something which
would be absolutely rejected by a religious Jew. That's what I meant by
saying that Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism is to
Christianity.

Just as the Jews reject the Christian scriptures, so do Christians
reject the Muslim scripture, though the latter in both cases accept the
scriptures of the former, after a fashion. Interesting parallel.

l***@hotmail.com

2006-07-19 03:07:55 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are.

When I say "Jew" I mean someone who believes in the religion of
Judaism. The people you are talking about above are people who are
ethnically Jewish but in other respects Christians.

No. I mean both/and. I mean the historic Jew as well as the present
Jew. I mean the unbelieving Jew and the believing Jew. A Jew is a
Jew whether he is of the remnant or not. His heritage is part of the
Christian hope. There is nothing in Islam of which the Christian has
any kinsmanship with.

Post by a***@gmail.com
I mean, the way you are using "Jew" any comparison would be
meaningless. After all, there are ethnic Jews who have become Muslim
(like Muhammad Asad or Maryam Jameelah) or Buddhist or Hindu or Sikh or
Wiccan....etc.

Because the *Nation* of Israel was elected, certainly, as Paul taught,
there is a definite distinction between the believing and
non-believing Jew. It is the nation, not the individual which was set
apart for God. This is different than the membership of the Church.
Individual's are specially elected in the Bride of Christ.

Perhaps your point has some validity and perhaps I should have
stated to to read that the Christian has greater kinsmanship with
Judiasm than with Islam. In fact, there is no kinsmanship with
the later which was my original point.

Post by a***@gmail.com
According to the Quran, Jesus was the messiah,

However, not the Messiah of Scripture. For instance, both Col 1 and
Eph 1 leave no room for thought other than that the Messiah be God
Incarnate. This you disallow.

Post by a***@gmail.com
brought the Gospel,

But the Gospel of the NT not your gospel. The Gospel of the NT
is based upon the grace and mercy of God.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in
righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of
regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Islam is based upon works.

Post by a***@gmail.com
who
healed the sick, raised the dead, was born of a virgin, ascended into
heaven and will come again in the last days.
That's a basic part of Islamic teaching,

But like all cults, it uses the terminology but not the Scriptural
context, exegesis or definition. It brings its own presuppositions and
agenda and force the words to say what it wills, not what the original
authors intended or were inspired to write.

Post by a***@gmail.com
but it is something which
would be absolutely rejected by a religious Jew.

Today? In Christ's day? In Christ's day there were two lines of
thought concerning the Messiah. One was that He was God Incarnate. The
other was that there were to come two Messiahs, not one Messiah twice.

Post by a***@gmail.com
That's what I meant by
saying that Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism is to
Christianity.

Do two wrongs make a right? No. You are only arguing degree even if we
hold to your own presuppositions.

Biblical Christianity cannot by synthesized. Man brings nothing to the
Gospel. It is entirely a work of God. It is only on the basis of
Christ's shed blood that redemption is made available. Again, Col 1.

Does Islam work off of the foundation stone that Jesus is the Creator?
If the most basic Christian dogma is comprimised, then there can be no
relationship to whatever is built above it. Genesis is the first book
of the Bible for a reason. Col 1 is written specifically to counter
the gnostic teaching that Jesus could not be God. Paul clearly
declares that not only is Jesus the Creator of "all things" but that
He was before "all things." That is, even as Jn 1 declares, He has
existed eternally and there has never been a "time" when He has not
existed. It is absolutely a claim of God alone.

Christianity is radical. You must either take as it is presented in
the Bible or you stand "outside of the camp." There are no
alternatives. Either/or.

Denis Giron

2006-07-20 01:32:41 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
"Allah" is merely the word for "God" in Arabic. Christians in the
Middle East pray to Allah as well.

There is no doubt that certain parts of the Qur'an seem to clearly make
it seem that Muslims are to worship the same God worshipped by Jews and
Christians. But I'm curious what you think about Soorat al-Kaafiroon
(for readers, this is the 109th chapter of the Qur'an). It is there
that Muslims are ordered to tell the kuffar "laa a`budu maa ta`budoona"
(I do not worship what you worship). Do Christians and Jews fall under
the heading of kuffar/kaafireen (disbelievers)? It seems to me that
they clearly do, thus it would seem that you are commanded by the
Qur'an to tell them that you do not, in fact, worship the same thing
they worship. Or do you take another interpretation?

initiate

2006-07-20 01:32:43 UTC

Post by Gordon
The Koran has many passages that express the Muslim attitude
toward Christians and Jews. Here's a typical one
Sura 5:56 O Believers! take not the Jews or Christians as
friends. They are but one another's friends. If any one of you
taketh them for his friends, he surely is one of them! God will
not guide the evil doers.

The word Aw'lyiyaa is translated as friends, where in reality it
means Allys and gaurdians, especially in the war against the
polythiests and idolatorsof Mecca. I would say that was / is a
wonderful advice from the Lord high above until the Jews and
Christians accept the prophethood of Mohammad, who is the
Seal of the Prophet.

On the Personal level however, even with the polythiests
and idolators personal friendship is recommended:

[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not
made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have
not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them
kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the
doers of justice.

[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war
upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth
from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion,
that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends
with them, these are the unjust.

Post by Gordon

Post by l***@hotmail.com
From the J.M. Rodwell translation from the Arabic. Copyrighted

1994.
Gordon

Matthew Johnson

2006-07-20 01:32:44 UTC

Post by zach

What are you talking about? Moslems do not accept Christian Scripture. They
reject the Canonical Gospels, claiming that they were tampered with.

They even claim that the Old Testament was tampered with. It is only isolated
teachings from either Testament that Moslems accept.

--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

Gordon

2006-07-20 01:32:47 UTC

Post by Bob

Post by a***@gmail.com
I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are.

Some of the core Muslim beliefs are;

Jesus was NOT the son of God. God simply isn't capable of having
had a son. Human males are superior to God in that they can have
sons, but God simply can not...did not have a son.

Jesus was not crucified then raised from the dead. This whole
story was a scam!

Jesus was a liar and a deceiver in that he made a pretense of
having been crucified then resurrected.

Jesus was a murderer in that he sent another person, a look-
alike, to be crucified, fooling the people into believing it was
Jesus himself, on the cross. Jesus did this so he could
manipulate the masses into following his false religion.

Jesus is not propitiation for our sins. Each person has to earn
their own way to salvation. Martyrdom is the pinnacle of this
school of thought. "72 virgins to use and abuse as one may
choose!"

Jesus does not/can not offer salvation to anyone. He has no such
power or authority. Jesus was simply lying when he made such
claims.

Then, to sum it all up the Muslim teaching is that Jesus was one
of the major prophets. Were all their "prophets" of such
questionable repute?

As to Christians having more diversity of belief between
different groups than is common between Christian and Muslim, I
don't buy that. I know of no Christians who subscribe to any of
the above.

Gordon

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-21 03:31:20 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are.

According to the Quran, Jesus was the messiah,

However, not the Messiah of Scripture. For instance, both Col 1 and
Eph 1 leave no room for thought other than that the Messiah be God
Incarnate. This you disallow.

Yes, but so do Jews.

Post by a***@gmail.com
brought the Gospel,

But the Gospel of the NT not your gospel. The Gospel of the NT
is based upon the grace and mercy of God.

[57.27] Then We made Our messengers to follow in their footsteps, and
We sent Jesus son of Mary afterwards, and We gave him the Gospel, and
We put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy;

And Jews don't believe that Jesus received any revelation at all.

Post by l***@hotmail.com
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in
righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of
regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Islam is based upon works.

Muhammad said "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and
rejoice, for no one's good deeds will put him in Paradise."

The Companions asked, "Not even you O Messenger of Allah?"

He replied, "Not even me unless Allah bestows His pardon and mercy on
me."

Post by a***@gmail.com
who
healed the sick, raised the dead, was born of a virgin, ascended into
heaven and will come again in the last days.
That's a basic part of Islamic teaching,

Even admitting that Muslims and Christians have their differences, you
are not taking into account my entire statement. I never said
Christians and Muslims believe the exact same things. What I'm saying
is that Muslims are closer to Christians than Jews are closer to
Christians. So for example, the Quran clearly says that Mary was a
virgin when Jesus was conceived. But in spite of the differences, Jews
generally reject the virgin birth and some will literally say that
Jesus was a bastard.

the Quran clearly says that Jesus was the Christ, and there are
differences but there are religious Jews who are so gung ho about not
recognizing Christ that they will say B.C.E. instead of BC.

etc.

Abdul-Halim

www.planetgrenada.blogspot.com

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-21 03:31:21 UTC

Post by Bob
The divide between Christian beliefs can be wider than the divide
between Christian/Muslim beliefs. Even "biblical christians" argue the
meaning of the bible. How then can one compare Christian and Muslim
beliefs when there is no concensus of what those beliefs are?

You can pick the most representative examples. Or compare
"fundamentalists" to "fundamentalists" and liberals to liberals.

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-21 03:31:21 UTC

Post by Denis Giron

Post by a***@gmail.com
"Allah" is merely the word for "God" in Arabic. Christians in the
Middle East pray to Allah as well.

There is no doubt that certain parts of the Qur'an seem to clearly make
it seem that Muslims are to worship the same God worshipped by Jews and
Christians.

Yes.

Post by Denis Giron
But I'm curious what you think about Soorat al-Kaafiroon
(for readers, this is the 109th chapter of the Qur'an). It is there
that Muslims are ordered to tell the kuffar "laa a`budu maa ta`budoona"
(I do not worship what you worship). Do Christians and Jews fall under
the heading of kuffar/kaafireen (disbelievers)? It seems to me that
they clearly do.

I think there are definitely some Muslims who have a narrower concept
of "unbeliever" and a more inclusive concept of "believer".

For me personally, the following passage is central in terms of
understanding the Quran's attitude towards Jews and Christians:

[3.113] They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is
an upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the nighttime
and they adore (Him).
[3.114] They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what is
right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in
hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.
[3.115] And whatever good they do, they shall not be denied it, and
Allah knows those who guard (against evil).
[3.116] (As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor
their children shall avail them in the least against Allah; and these
are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.

So "followers of the Book" refers to people who follow the previous
religions. And the Quran seems to clearly be saying that some of them
are believers and some are disbelievers. The Quran doesn't make
sweeping generalization about them.

Abdul-Halim

www.planetgrenada.blogspot.com

thus it would seem that you are commanded by the

Post by Denis Giron
Qur'an to tell them that you do not, in fact, worship the same thing
they worship. Or do you take another interpretation?

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-21 03:31:21 UTC

5:82
....And you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who
believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there
are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave
proudly.

Abdul-Halim

www.planetgrenada.blogspot.com

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-21 03:31:22 UTC

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by zach
Just as the Jews reject the Christian scriptures, so do Christians
reject the Muslim scripture, though the latter in both cases accept the
scriptures of the former, after a fashion. Interesting parallel.

What are you talking about? Moslems do not accept Christian Scripture. They
reject the Canonical Gospels, claiming that they were tampered with.

I think Zach saved himself by saying "after a fashion". The Quran
refers to the Torah, the Gospel and the Psalms as previous valid
revelations as well as the Scrolls of Abraham and Moses. And there have
also been many Muslims who have accepted much of the Bible as basically
authentic (at least where it doesn't contradict Islamic sources)

And on the other hand, many Jews and Christians have accepted the
documentary hypothesis (which implies that the Torah revealed to Moses
has been "tampered with") and other modern scholarly theories which
express skepticism about an inerrant perfectly preserved Bible.
Abdul-Halim

b***@juno.com

2006-07-21 03:31:22 UTC

Post by l***@hotmail.com
This is simply not true. Now it needs to be clarified that there are

According to the Quran, Jesus was the messiah, brought the Gospel, who
healed the sick, raised the dead, was born of a virgin, ascended into
heaven and will come again in the last days.
That's a basic part of Islamic teaching, but it is something which
would be absolutely rejected by a religious Jew. That's what I meant by
saying that Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism is to
Christianity.

Muslims get a lot of things right. Unfortunately, they mess up at the
most critical point. Here is what St. John said:

1 John 2:22-25
"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son
has the Father also. See that what you have heard from the beginning
remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the
Father. And this is what he promised us-even eternal life."

Since Muslims deny God's Son, this means they do not have God the
Father either. And they do not have eternal life.

a***@gmail.com

2006-07-21 03:31:23 UTC

Post by Gordon

Post by a***@gmail.com
I would suggest that this is inconsistent then, because Muslims are
closer to Christians than Jews are.

Some of the core Muslim beliefs are;
Jesus was NOT the son of God.

This is also what Jews believe.

Post by Gordon
God simply isn't capable of having
had a son.

I think that what the Quran says is that it would be indignified to do
so. And Jews believe something similar.

Post by Gordon
Jesus was not crucified then raised from the dead. This whole
story was a scam!

Jews don't believe in Jesus' resurrection either.

Post by Gordon
Jesus was a liar and a deceiver in that he made a pretense of
having been crucified then resurrected.

Muslims would never accuse Jesus of lying, he was a prophet.

Post by Gordon
Jesus was a murderer in that he sent another person, a look-
alike, to be crucified, fooling the people into believing it was
Jesus himself,

Same as above. Also the Quran doesn't specifiy that there was a
look-alike, just "he was neither killed nor crucified."

Post by Gordon
Jesus is not propitiation for our sins.
Each person has to earn their own way to salvation.

"deny yourself, take up *your own cross* and follow him."

Martyrdom is the pinnacle of this school of thought.

"Greater love hath no man than to die for his friends."

Abdul-Halim
www.planetgrenada.blogspot.com

Matthew Johnson

2006-07-21 03:31:24 UTC

Post by initiate

I do not understand why you two are discussing the Koran in a NG whose charter
makes it clear it is for discussion of Christianity. But if you must, then I
have to point out that the Russian translation does not agree with the above. In
place of "Jews or Christians", it reads, "those who take your religion for
amusement and mockery". It sounds pretty rash to assume that he was referring to
Christians and Jews here.

Post by initiate
The word Aw'lyiyaa is translated as friends,

Interestingly enough, the Russian translation rendered this as 'friends' also.

[snip]

Post by initiate
On the Personal level however, even with the polythiests

And which translation are you quoting? Gordon told us which he was using. Will
you do the same?

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

---

[comparative religions and attitudes of religions toward each other is
appropriate for soc.religion.christian. Experience with soc.religion.islam
makes it clear that in order to have a meaningful discussion, members of
the other religion have to be able to explain and defend their own
viewpoint.

--clh]

initiate

2006-07-25 01:35:03 UTC

Post by Denis Giron

Post by a***@gmail.com
"Allah" is merely the word for "God" in Arabic. Christians in the
Middle East pray to Allah as well.

I do not think that the above sura you mentioned applies to
Christians and Jews, especially when we consider verse 5:5
where the food (kosher) and intermarrying from the people of the
scriptures were allowed, and the belief in previous scriptures
is a natural 2:4.

While it is true that many reservations were made in the Quran
regarding the Trinity and the divinity of the Anointed Jesus
and his mother Mairam, in the Sura the Romans 30:1-4, the early
Muslims were prophecized to rejoice at the victory of the
Christian Romans (Byzantium) over the Persian Sassanid
empire (fire cult of sort).

So in spite of the fact that Byzantium were more Trinitarian
than Unitarian, it was still favorable in the sight of God
when Islam as a religion was still fledgling or have not
matured yet (over the mission of 23 years in the life of
prophet Muhammad).

Perhaps 5:5 refers more to Unitarian Christians
who do not hold Jesus as God, son of God, but instead a
a God-Sent to serve, and was elevated by God with a blessed
spirit but limited in power withoput even knowing when is his
final ressurection will be, since all power is to due to God, the
One and Only, the Founder of the Universe and the Lord of
the Angels and Spirits, the Forgiving , the Loving.

Peace,

l***@hotmail.com

2006-07-31 03:16:04 UTC