Discussion:
Bush nominates homophobe for surgeon general
(too old to reply)
shegeek72
2007-06-14 01:00:20 UTC
Permalink
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19102066/

Gay rights activists criticize Bush health nominee

WASHINGTON - Gay rights activists and a top Democratic presidential
hopeful criticized President George W. Bush's surgeon general nominee
for "anti-gay" writings on Thursday, but the White House defended him
as well qualified.

The Human Rights Campaign, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and
other groups opposed Dr. James Holsinger's nomination to be the
nation's top doctor, citing a document he wrote in 1991 titled
"Pathophysiology of Male Homosexuality."

In that document written to a United Methodist Church panel studying
homosexuality, Holsinger described anal sex as unnatural.

[...]

'SOUND SCIENCE'

Health and Human Services Department spokeswoman Christina Pearson
said, "Over 17 years ago, he was asked by a study committee of the
United Methodist Church to compile a survey of peer-reviewed
scientific data on health issues facing homosexuals, based on
information available at the time."

"Since then, the science has deepened with continued research on these
issues. Dr. Holsinger remains focused on addressing the health of all
in need, including gay and lesbian populations, consistent with sound
science and the best medical practices," Pearson said.

In the 1991 document, Holsinger wrote: "The anus and rectum, unlike
the vagina contain no natural lubricating function. Thus insertion of
unlubricated objects or inadequate dilation of the anus before
insertion of a large object can result in tissue laceration," he
wrote.

"From the perspective of pathology and pathophysiology, the varied
sexual practices of homosexual men have resulted in a diverse and
expanded concept of sexually transmitted disease and associated
trauma," Holsinger added.

Gay rights groups also faulted Holsinger for opposing a decision to
allow a lesbian to serve as an associate pastor in the United
Methodist Church, for which he served on a high-ranking judicial
council.

Human Rights Campaign President Joe Solmonese said, "It is incredibly
troubling to us that this is the caliber of candidate that President
Bush would put forward for such an important job."

Matt Foreman, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force executive director,
said by nominating Holsinger, the Bush administration was "throwing
red meat to its ravenous anti-gay supporters."
John Mayson
2007-06-18 01:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
In that document written to a United Methodist Church panel studying
homosexuality, Holsinger described anal sex as unnatural.
How does that equate to being a homophobe?

Not all gay men have anal sex. Some heterosexual couples have anal sex.
--
John Mayson <***@mayson.us>
Austin, Texas, USA
B.G. Kent
2007-06-19 01:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Mayson
How does that equate to being a homophobe?
Not all gay men have anal sex. Some heterosexual couples have anal sex.
B - unfortunately a lot of homophobes seem to focus on that because they
can't justify hating homosexuals for any other reason.
A lot skim right over Lesbians for some reason.

Bren
Kristian
2007-06-18 01:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19102066/
Gay rights activists criticize Bush health nominee
shegeek72, tell us (1) whether you are Orthodox Christian; (2) whether
you are a homosexual? I am a baptised Orthodox** Christian* under the
jurisdiction of Moscow Patriarchate and I do not see anything wrong
with "homophobia" which is also known to the PC left as "racism
against homosexuals". Homosexuals are no different from murderers,
serial rapists and armed robbers. God is anti homosexual and he has
clearly decreed death penalty (by stoning) in both Bible and Quran for
the crime of anal sex.

Note:
** "Orthodox" refers to theologically correct Christians, who include
Nestorians, Monophysites and Arians.
* "Christian" refers to a follower of Christ.
Post by shegeek72
WASHINGTON - Gay rights activists and a top Democratic presidential
hopeful criticized President George W. Bush's surgeon general nominee
for "anti-gay" writings on Thursday, but the White House defended him
as well qualified.
These anti-God people are whining ;) and this is proof Allah shows us
they have lost! Allah, who is Lord over all hates fags.
Post by shegeek72
Human Rights Campaign President Joe Solmonese said, "It is incredibly
troubling to us that this is the caliber of candidate that President
Bush would put forward for such an important job."
Bush is part of Moral Majority group and he believes murderers, serial
rapists, armed robbers and homosexuals should be stoned to death. I
do not support _all_ of Bush's policies, in fact, I oppose his war in
Afganistan and his silence of the Christian Russian genocide on
Chechnya, which is caused by Russian illegal colonism of Chechnya
(which is like Serbia's illegal occupation of the former Yugoslavia),
a sinful act endorsed by my own Orthodox Church. However, I support
him in this issue of appointing an anti-gay person to an important
public office.
Matthew Johnson
2007-06-19 01:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kristian
Post by shegeek72
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19102066/
Gay rights activists criticize Bush health nominee
shegeek72, tell us (1) whether you are Orthodox Christian; (2) whether
you are a homosexual? I am a baptised Orthodox** Christian* under the
jurisdiction of Moscow Patriarchate
No, you are not. You are an apostate to Islam. You are under the Church's
anathema.

[snip]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2007-06-18 01:34:55 UTC
Permalink
I often wonder if people are going to be rabidly against anal sex...why
they don't focus on that and not on "gay" folk. There are many heteros
that have anal sex...and many gay men who don't. There are also a whack
load of lesbians who don't have anal sex. Using a cover of "unhealthy for
the body" they thinly disguise their hatred of someone "different" from
themselves.

I.M.O
Bren
l***@hotmail.com
2007-06-18 01:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19102066/
Gay rights activists criticize Bush health nominee
Get over it. You're in the minority view. Besides, do you not remember
other Republican SGs? Probably the most noted was C. Everet Coop. He
was nominated and accepted and is still hailed as the best of the SGs
even though he was an outspoke critic of abortion and even toured with
Francis Schaeffer in the promotion of their book on abortion.

Don't like it? Move to Montreal.
Chris Smith
2007-06-19 01:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Get over it. You're in the minority view. Besides, do you not remember
other Republican SGs? Probably the most noted was C. Everet Coop. He
was nominated and accepted and is still hailed as the best of the SGs
even though he was an outspoke critic of abortion and even toured with
Francis Schaeffer in the promotion of their book on abortion.
Let me first say that, not having looked into this at all, I have no
idea whether this surgeon general apointee is really homophobic or if he
merely wrote a medical opinion that some advocacy groups disliked.

That said, there is a serious difference between homophobia and the pro-
life position. Sure, there is some overlap... e.g., homosexual activity
and abortion both clearly fall short of Christian ideals; and they are
both adopted as parts of a cold and calculated political strategy by the
Republican party in the U.S. Go much beyond that, though, and things
diverge completely.

Abortion is about preventing someone from killing someone else, and is a
matter of utmost moral urgency. It is certainly oft-abused for
political gain, sure; there are definitely far too many politicians
willing to talk loudly about it but then oppose every possible policy
that might have the effect of preventing abortions from happening. The
goal, though, is just and important as a matter of public policy.

Homophobia, on the other hand, is about words and behaviors that
alienate from the church those who need to hear God's message. God's
message calls people to chaste lives; but nothing in God's message
justifies a government appointing to the highest medical position in the
country a person who is hostile toward millions of people who have a
serious and widespread medical problem. Nothing in Christianity
justifies excluding these millions of people from full participation in
churches, government, military, schools, adoption, family, or any other
man-made institution. If indeed homophobia has gained yet another voice
in government, Christians should cry out in outrage.
--
Chris Smith
Matthew Johnson
2007-06-20 01:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19102066/
Gay rights activists criticize Bush health nominee
Get over it. You're in the minority view. Besides, do you not remember
other Republican SGs? Probably the most noted was C. Everet Coop.
You call him "most noted", but you can't even note him well enough to spell his
name right?
Post by l***@hotmail.com
He
was nominated and accepted and is still hailed as the best of the SGs
even though he was an outspoke critic of abortion and even toured with
Francis Schaeffer in the promotion of their book on abortion.
Don't like it? Move to Montreal.
What has you got against Montreal??
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
shegeek72
2007-06-20 01:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Smith
That said, there is a serious difference between homophobia and the pro-
life position. Sure, there is some overlap... e.g., homosexual activity
and abortion both clearly fall short of Christian ideals;
Of your Christian ideals, perhaps. Not all believe as such.
Post by Chris Smith
God's message calls people to chaste lives
Not in my reading of the Bible.
Post by Chris Smith
millions of people who have a
serious and widespread medical problem.
Time to come up to the 21st century. Homosexuality hasn't been listed
as a disorder in 30 years.
shegeek72
2007-06-20 01:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19102066/
Gay rights activists criticize Bush health nominee
You're in the minority view.
Since when is the majority always right? That's a straw man argument.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Don't like it? Move to Montreal.
I love Montreal and would seriously consider moving there if the
opportunity arrived. Canadians, as a whole, seem more sensible and
reasonable than USAians.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org
B.G. Kent
2007-06-21 00:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
I love Montreal and would seriously consider moving there if the
opportunity arrived. Canadians, as a whole, seem more sensible and
reasonable than USAians.
B - Oh some are good...my boyfriend for instance...a Yank from Washington
State and Cali...wonderful guy.
You could move to BC. Tara! I'd love to meet you.

hugs,
Bren
Matthew Johnson
2007-06-21 00:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Chris Smith
That said, there is a serious difference between homophobia and the pro-
life position. Sure, there is some overlap... e.g., homosexual activity
and abortion both clearly fall short of Christian ideals;
Of your Christian ideals, perhaps. Not all believe as such.
Post by Chris Smith
God's message calls people to chaste lives
Not in my reading of the Bible.
"Not in your reading"? Perhaps that is just yet another indication of how you
cannot READ!

The Bible does not call all of us to the absolute chastity of celibacy, but it
_does_ clearly call all people to the chastity of chaste marital relations in
verses such as:

Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.
Let thy springs be dispersed abroad, and courses of water in the streets. Let
them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. Let thy fountain be
blessed; and have joy of the wife of thy youth. A lovely hind and a graceful
doe, let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; with her love be thou ravished
always. Why then wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and
embrace the bosom of an alien? For the ways of man are before the eyes of the
LORD, and He maketh even all his paths. His own iniquities shall ensnare the
wicked, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sin. He shall die for lack
of instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall reel.
(Pro 5:15-23 JPS)

For some strange reason, you insist on choosing to die for lack of instruction.

[snip]
Post by shegeek72
Time to come up to the 21st century. Homosexuality hasn't been listed
as a disorder in 30 years.
Not true. It was still listed as a disorder in Soviet manuals just before the
fall of the Iron Curtain. In this respect, they were better than American
listings;)
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
l***@hotmail.com
2007-06-21 00:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Chris Smith
God's message calls people to chaste lives
Not in my reading of the Bible.
It's in there. But what distinquishes your reading of it
is that you do not rely upon God's Spirit to render its
meaning. Instead, you fix firmly your presuppositional
rose colored glasses and then eisegete your interpre-
tations.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Chris Smith
millions of people who have a
serious and widespread medical problem.
Time to come up to the 21st century. Homosexuality hasn't been listed
as a disorder in 30 years.
You need to step into the world of the majority view. Though
it counts for little, it does not follow your prescription. Even if
you had every man, woman and child, from the beginning of time
conferring with your declaration, it would still only leave with
nothing more than a sociological statistical average. God in
no uncertain terms has declared that both adultery and homo-
sexuality, even "transgenderism" (effeminancy) are rebellions
against His nature.

Go ahead, deny all you want to. It is not my eternal salvation
which hangs in the balance. I do not have to stand before the
Throne to give an answer to why "although they know the
ordingance of God, that those who practice such things are
worthy of death, they not only do the same but also give
hearty approval to those who practice them" Rom 1:32
shegeek72
2007-06-22 01:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
Not in my reading of the Bible.
It's in there. But what distinquishes your reading of it
is that you do not rely upon God's Spirit to render its
meaning.
You do not know this and I could say the same of you. My relationship
with God is personal and doesn't hinge on what other's claim are the
correct interpretations of biblical passages, nor their opinion of how
much God's spirit is within me to render its meaning.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Instead, you fix firmly your presuppositional
rose colored glasses and then eisegete your interpretations.
You imply I read the Bible with preconceived notions. This is not
true. Indeed, at my church we are currently discussing the meanings of
certain biblical passages. I go to each service with an open mind to
learn what the true meanings are and often find myself delighted to
find the complexity and depth to them.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
Time to come up to the 21st century. Homosexuality hasn't been listed
as a disorder in 30 years.
You need to step into the world of the majority view.
I already addressed this. The majority view is not necessarily the
correct one. This is mirrored in our system of government that is a
republic, not a democracy, where the majority does not hold absolute
power.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
it counts for little, it does not follow your prescription. Even if
you had every man, woman and child, from the beginning of time
conferring with your declaration, it would still only leave with
nothing more than a sociological statistical average.
Sorry, but your obtuse answer doesn't change the fact that
homosexuality is not a disorder, except in the minds of those that
allow their (mis)interpretations of religion to trump science.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
God in
no uncertain terms has declared that both adultery and homo-
sexuality, even "transgenderism" (effeminancy) are rebellions
against His nature.
I also previously addressed this. The homosexuality in the Bible most
likely refers to homosexual prostitution and homosexual rape as a
means of humiliation, that was prevalent back then and not the loving,
longterm relationships of today.

Transgenderism is not "effeminancy," but rather femininity for the MTF
(male-to-female) and masculinity for the FTM (female-to-male). Even
those descriptions are but a small part of transsexuality, that
according to the latest research happens prenatally and probably has
genetic components and encompasses much more than how we present to
society (gender).
--
Metropolitan Community Churches - worldwide
http://www.mccchurch.org
Chris Smith
2007-06-22 01:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Chris Smith
That said, there is a serious difference between homophobia and the pro-
life position. Sure, there is some overlap... e.g., homosexual activity
and abortion both clearly fall short of Christian ideals;
Of your Christian ideals, perhaps. Not all believe as such.
Yep, we disagree on this. I will continue to express what I strongly
believe to be the truth. You can do likewise.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Chris Smith
millions of people who have a
serious and widespread medical problem.
Time to come up to the 21st century. Homosexuality hasn't been listed
as a disorder in 30 years.
I'm afraid I was unclear. When I said "a serious and widespread medical
problem", I didn't mean to refer to homosexuality itself -- but rather
to AIDS, which is still several times as common among homosexuals as it
is among heterosexuals. It is, therefore, an important duty of a
Surgeon General to lead the effort to make people's lives better.
That's all I meant.

My apologies if you thought I meant homosexuality is a medical disorder.
I really don't think it is, though I do believe homosexual activity is a
moral fault.
--
Chris Smith
l***@hotmail.com
2007-06-25 01:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
Not in my reading of the Bible.
It's in there. But what distinquishes your reading of it
is that you do not rely upon God's Spirit to render its
meaning.
You do not know this and I could say the same of you. My relationship
with God is personal and doesn't hinge on what other's claim are the
correct interpretations of biblical passages, nor their opinion of how
much God's spirit is within me to render its meaning.
"Faith without works is dead."
"The proof is in the pudding."
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Instead, you fix firmly your presuppositional
rose colored glasses and then eisegete your interpretations.
You imply I read the Bible with preconceived notions. This is not
true.
Not only is this true, it is universal. Everyone does it. The
question
is, have you investigated your presuppositions and upon investigation,
revised your thinking?
Post by shegeek72
Indeed, at my church
has its own presuppositions
Post by shegeek72
we are currently discussing the meanings of
certain biblical passages. I go to each service with an open mind to
learn what the true meanings are and often find myself delighted to
find the complexity and depth to them.
"an open mind" No there is a complete mystery. The Bible admonishes
man to have anything but. We are to be antithetical thinkers, not
synthetic. This was a major presupposition in the giving of the
Mosaic
Law. "Thou shall not eat of the fruit" likewise is black and white.
Your
"open mind" mentality affords exactly the same situation that Eve
faced. You open yourself to perversion.

If indeed you were open to Truth, then you would have a studied
understanding that not just lingusitically is homosexuality an
abomination, but historically as well it has been received it just
compensation in Divine punishment.
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
Time to come up to the 21st century. Homosexuality hasn't been listed
as a disorder in 30 years.
You need to step into the world of the majority view.
I already addressed this. The majority view is not necessarily the
correct one.
I never declared it was. I merely noted that some measure of worth
needs to be granted when even in todays society, homosexuality is
not accepted by the majority. It may be tolerated, but acceptance is
and entirely different thing.
Post by shegeek72
This is mirrored in our system of government that is a
republic, not a democracy, where the majority does not hold absolute
power.
You have a firm grasp on the obvious. To bad this does not
apply to the subject at hand.
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
it counts for little, it does not follow your prescription. Even if
you had every man, woman and child, from the beginning of time
conferring with your declaration, it would still only leave with
nothing more than a sociological statistical average.
Sorry, but your obtuse answer doesn't change the fact that
homosexuality is not a disorder, except in the minds of those that
allow their (mis)interpretations of religion to trump science.
How can it NOT be a disorder when the order of things is to
reproduce each after their kind. Homosexuality cannot even
conform to the basic command to "go forth and multiply." It
stands in complete defiance to the form of Divinely created
universe.

..... two men on an island, come back 100 yrs later
..... a man and his wife on an island, come back 100 yrs later
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
God in
no uncertain terms has declared that both adultery and homo-
sexuality, even "transgenderism" (effeminancy) are rebellions
against His nature.
I also previously addressed this. The homosexuality in the Bible most
likely refers to homosexual prostitution and homosexual rape as a
means of humiliation, that was prevalent back then and not the loving,
longterm relationships of today.
And I have at great length surveyed the writings of those theologians
who hold to such an apology. Scholastically it is nothing short of
"revisionism." Even someone who has no education in Greek or
Hebrew has the ability to study the words for themselves in a great
many reference works that have no "axe to grind." They do not
agree with you or Robin Scroggs or Bailey or Boswell.
Post by shegeek72
Transgenderism is not "effeminancy," but rather femininity for the MTF
(male-to-female) and masculinity for the FTM (female-to-male). Even
those descriptions are but a small part of transsexuality, that
according to the latest research happens prenatally and probably has
genetic components and encompasses much more than how we present to
society (gender).
--
No one is discounting the effects of sin. The hermaphrodite is
physical reality. But even here, the biblical prinicple is that the
hermaphrodite, when he/she comes of age, must chose and then
live with that choice even as a man must live with his choice as
a wife. Sin alienates and confuses. However, that does not
dismiss the accountablity that being made responsible necessitates.

My wife and I discussed this just the other night for we both
have acquaintences who are transgenders. The conclusion was,
that only the hermaphrodite has true transgender choice which
in turn allows only for transgenders to be hermaphrodites.
Post by shegeek72
Metropolitan Community Churches
Talk about presupposing......
shegeek72
2007-06-25 01:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Smith
I'm afraid I was unclear. When I said "a serious and widespread medical
problem", I didn't mean to refer to homosexuality itself -- but rather
to AIDS, which is still several times as common among homosexuals as it
is among heterosexuals.
Actually, the highest percentage of AIDS contraction is now among
heterosexuals in Africa.
Post by Chris Smith
My apologies if you thought I meant homosexuality is a medical disorder.
I really don't think it is, though I do believe homosexual activity is a
moral fault.
One out of two ain't bad. :)
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org
B.G. Kent
2007-06-25 01:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Smith
Post by Chris Smith
That said, there is a serious difference between homophobia and the pro-
life position.
B - Hmm don't you mean anti-choice?
Post by Chris Smith
I'm afraid I was unclear. When I said "a serious and widespread medical
problem", I didn't mean to refer to homosexuality itself -- but rather
to AIDS, which is still several times as common among homosexuals as it
is among heterosexuals. It is, therefore, an important duty of a
Surgeon General to lead the effort to make people's lives better.
That's all I meant.
B - go to Africa where it runs rampant among the heterosexual community.

Bren
Chris Smith
2007-06-25 23:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Chris Smith
I'm afraid I was unclear. When I said "a serious and widespread medical
problem", I didn't mean to refer to homosexuality itself -- but rather
to AIDS, which is still several times as common among homosexuals as it
is among heterosexuals.
Actually, the highest percentage of AIDS contraction is now among
heterosexuals in Africa.
And this is the problem with the adversarial approach to communication.
It's pretty clear here that we were discussing the surgeon general of
the United States. Is it not possible that when I mention problems
he'll need to address, there's an implicit "in the United States" added
to the end of the problem statement?

Anyway, I'm done with this conversation, because it's apparent that
other participants on all sides would rather prove others wrong than be
reasonable.

My contribution -- to extract it from the meat-grinder that followed --
was to point out that, contrary to what lsenders implied, from a
Christian perspective homosexuality is a completely different thing from
abortion. In the former, it's a matter of an individual's struggle with
sin and relationship with God; in the latter, it's a matter of an
individual's immediate harmful actions toward another innocent and
defenseless individual. The two ought to be treated quite differently
from a policy standpoint, even as the Church is bound to condemn both.

Have a nice day.
--
Chris Smith
Matthew Johnson
2007-06-25 23:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by shegeek72
Not in my reading of the Bible.
It's in there. But what distinquishes your reading of it
is that you do not rely upon God's Spirit to render its
meaning.
You do not know this and I could say the same of you. My relationship
with God is personal and doesn't hinge on what other's claim are the
correct interpretations of biblical passages, nor their opinion of how
much God's spirit is within me to render its meaning.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Instead, you fix firmly your presuppositional
rose colored glasses and then eisegete your interpretations.
You imply I read the Bible with preconceived notions. This is not
true.
What? Do you really expect anyone to take your word for this? Why should we?
Why, every single one of your posts reveals which disastrous "preconceived
notions" you insist on following as you pervert the Biblical text to fit your
preconcieved notions.

[snip]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
shegeek72
2007-06-27 04:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Smith
In the former, it's a matter of an individual's struggle with
sin and relationship with God;
There is no struggle without religious condemnation and
misinterpretations of the Bible on homosexuality. Indeed, misguided
Christians project their morality on a natural derivation of human
sexuality and make it "sinful" where there is no harm, thereby causing
untold suffering, violence and rejection from both church and family
that's absolutely unwarranted.
Post by Chris Smith
The two ought to be treated quite differently
from a policy standpoint, even as the Church is bound to condemn both.
As you must know, there is no "the church," but rather many "flavors"
of Christian churches, some that openly welcome GLBT people.
Post by Chris Smith
Have a nice day.
You, too.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org
shegeek72
2007-06-27 04:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
You imply I read the Bible with preconceived notions. This is not
true.
What? Do you really expect anyone to take your word for this? Why should we?
Why, every single one of your posts reveals which disastrous "preconceived
notions" you insist on following as you pervert the Biblical text to fit your
preconcieved notions.
It's "preconceived." ;)

I don't expect everyone who reads this ng to take my word. Likewise,
you can't expect any different.

[snip]
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org
Matthew Johnson
2007-06-28 00:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
You imply I read the Bible with preconceived notions. This is not
true.
What? Do you really expect anyone to take your word for this? Why
should we? Why, every single one of your posts reveals which
disastrous "preconceived notions" you insist on following as you
pervert the Biblical text to fit your preconcieved notions.
It's "preconceived." ;)
I don't expect everyone who reads this ng to take my word. Likewise,
you can't expect any different.
Predictably, you miss the point. Predictably, you surreptitiously swap
'everyone' for 'anyone' as if to try to fool the unwary.

I never _said_ you expect, or should expect _everyone_ to take your
word; I challenged your expectation that _anyone_ should take your
word, since you yourself disprove your word so often in your posts.

There is _nothing_ honest about your claim to read teh Bible without
precoceived notions. It is blatantly false, and even you would admit
this, if your heart was not so deeply committed to lies, that you
carved such a gross lie into your own flesh with that highly unnatural
surgery.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2007-06-28 00:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Chris Smith
In the former, it's a matter of an individual's struggle with
sin and relationship with God;
There is no struggle without religious condemnation and
misinterpretations of the Bible on homosexuality.
This sentence makes no sense.
Post by shegeek72
Indeed, misguided Christians project their morality on a natural
derivation of human sexuality
Ah, but we are NOT talking about "a natural derivation of human
sexuality". We are talking about a profoundly unnatural one. All the
example given earlier in this NG prove only that the proponents of
perversion do not understand 'nature'.

That said, I won't deny that there have been many misguided Christians
expressing themselves about this topic...
Post by shegeek72
and make it "sinful" where there is no harm,
This isn't true, either. There is very great harm. But since you are
so in love with self-destruction, you cannot even tell the difference
anymore between 'harm' and 'good'. This _is_ the delusion
St. Augustine warns us all against in the quote in my sig-file.
Post by shegeek72
thereby causing untold suffering, violence and rejection from both
church and family that's absolutely unwarranted.
That 'suffering' you complain about is piffling when compared to the
harm you propose they inflict on themselves by condoning their
terrible sin. Repentance is the beginning of the only cure. But you
deny this to them.

Now that is cruel.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Chris Smith
The two ought to be treated quite differently from a policy
standpoint, even as the Church is bound to condemn both.
As you must know, there is no "the church," but rather many "flavors"
of Christian churches, some that openly welcome GLBT people.
As everyone who really knows must know, of course there is only one
Church. This is why Christ _so_ often refers to the Church in the
_singular_, as in that most famous verse:

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church
[singular!], and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
(Mat 16:18 RSVA)

Try as you might to prevail against it, you will fail. You will fail
especially quickly and easily when you try to say 'churches' when
Christ says 'Church'.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
shegeek72
2007-06-29 02:25:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Predictably, you miss the point. Predictably, you surreptitiously swap
'everyone' for 'anyone' as if to try to fool the unwary.
Predictably, you use semantics in your weak rebuttal. The point is (as
I said) not everyone is going to accept what I say, nor what_you_say.
Obviously, some free-thinkers here do agree with me, as has been
stated in the past in this forum and in emails.
Post by Matthew Johnson
since you yourself disprove your word so often in your posts.
Provide proof, not just shallow accusations (though I doubt you will).
Post by Matthew Johnson
There is _nothing_ honest about your claim to read teh Bible without
precoceived notions. It is blatantly false, and even you would admit
this, if your heart was not so deeply committed to lies
Baloney. The proof is in people's hearts, but your attitude is so sour
that I doubt anyone in this ng would say you speak from the heart.
Post by Matthew Johnson
carved such a gross lie into your own flesh with that highly unnatural
surgery.
Are breast implants lies? Is a face-lift a lie? Is rhinoplasty a lie?
Even if you consider SRS (sex reassignment surgery) cosmetic (which it
isn't) and condemn me, then you must condemn anyone who's had the
other procedures I mentioned, or any other cosmetic surgery.
--
As appealing as it might seem, it is impossible to patch or upgrade
users.
Matthew Johnson
2007-07-02 02:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
Predictably, you miss the point. Predictably, you surreptitiously swap
'everyone' for 'anyone' as if to try to fool the unwary.
Predictably, you use semantics in your weak rebuttal.
Nothing wrong with the use of 'semantics', at least, if you know what
the word means. Unlike you, I really do know what the word really
means. And there is nothing 'weak' about my rebuttal.
Post by shegeek72
The point is (as I said) not everyone is going to accept what I say,
nor what_you_say.
No, that is NOT the point. That you think it is shows you _missed_ the
point.
Post by shegeek72
Obviously, some free-thinkers here do agree with me, as has been
stated in the past in this forum and in emails.
So what? If I post a post claiming that the Bible teaches
reincarnation, some 'free-thinkers' will agree. Does that make them
right? NO!
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
since you yourself disprove your word so often in your posts.
Provide proof, not just shallow accusations (though I doubt you will).
You say that as if it were a difficult challenge. It isn't. See below.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
There is _nothing_ honest about your claim to read the Bible
without preconceived notions. It is blatantly false, and even you
would admit this, if your heart was not so deeply committed to lies
Baloney. The proof is in people's hearts,
This failed rebuttal is another great example of your failure to
understand what 'proof' is. How can the proof be in people's hearts
when even the owner of the heart knows it so poorly? Haven't you heard
that only God knows the heart? This means that even the person whose
heart it is, does not know the heart.
Post by shegeek72
but your attitude is so sour that I doubt anyone in this ng would say
you speak from the heart.
But of course, after one failed rebuttal, you fall right into
another. Of course your doubt is wrong. It would be too easy to find
people who say this. I do, for example. Not that I expect myself to be
the most convincing example...
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
carved such a gross lie into your own flesh with that highly unnatural
surgery.
Are breast implants lies? Is a face-lift a lie? Is rhinoplasty a lie?
You ask as if that were relevant. It is not. None of these surgeries
make the subject look like what they are not. Your elective surgery
does. It makes you look female, when in truth you are male.
Post by shegeek72
Even if you consider SRS (sex reassignment surgery) cosmetic (which it
isn't) and condemn me, then you must condemn anyone who's had the
other procedures I mentioned, or any other cosmetic surgery.
This is total nonsense. Are you deliberately showing off your total
ignorance of basic logic?

Just to underline how deep your ignorance really is, I am going to put
that blooper of yours into syllogistic form (well, as close as it can
get) as follows:

Premises:

F: All SRS is cosmetic
G1: Some SRS (yours) is cosmetic
G2: Some people, namely you, are condemned by me
H: All people who had SRS are condemned by me

Conclusion:

I: All persons who had cosmetic surgery are condemned by me

It is not possible to form a valid syllogism out of these premises,
except for trivial syllogisms, NONE of which prove your conclusion.

In fact, no new conclusions can be formed out of these premises: each
valid conclusion adds no new information. Your invalid conclusion
looks like an attempt at AIIA, which is not even a syllogistic form,
much less a valid one. Even if I make the obvious correction and drop
G1 (redundant), I still have left AIA, which is not a valid syllogistic form.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism)

You need:

G3: all (people who have had) cosmetic surgeries are condemned by me

which you do not have (it is false).

Surely anyone so ignorant of logic as to come up with this blooper of
yours can have NO credibility when you claim to have "scientific
evidence" on your side. For your command of logic is far too poor to
recognize what is evidence and what is not.

But this bring me back to your 'challenge'. You have yourself proved
it in this post, that you are incapable of setting aside your
preconceived notions, even while reading the Bible.

Nor is this all. You also prove your inability to set aside your
preconceived notions, even while reading the Bible, when you make such
outrageous claims (in previous posts) as:

"make it 'sinful' where there is no harm"

This _is_ a preconceived notion. Scripture NEVER says there is no harm
there. But you cling so VERY tightly to this preconceived notion.

If the human and divine authors of Scripture thought "there is no
harm", they would not have punished it with the death sentence. But
they did. The _logical_ conclusion would be that they found very great
harm in it, even if they never did explain what that harm is.

But this _logical_ conclusion is too much for you, so you scrape the
bottom of the barrel for excuses to shut your eyes to it, even
resorting to such gross logical fallacies as your logical blooper
above -- and worse.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
shegeek72
2007-07-03 02:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
The point is (as I said) not everyone is going to accept what I say,
nor what_you_say.
No, that is NOT the point. That you think it is shows you _missed_ the
point.
Then what is the point? I'll be interested to see how you squirm out
of this one.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
Obviously, some free-thinkers here do agree with me, as has been
stated in the past in this forum and in emails.
So what? If I post a post claiming that the Bible teaches
reincarnation, some 'free-thinkers' will agree. Does that make them
right? NO!
Just because the Bible, according to you, doesn't refer to
reincarnation doesn't make it false. The Bible doesn't mention a lot
of things, like meditation or yoga, yet millions of people have
benefited from them. But the salient point is you, nor anyone, has
lock, stock and barrel on what exactly the Bible says. Especially when
you, and some others, do and don't take into context and cultural
practices at the time.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
There is _nothing_ honest about your claim to read the Bible
without preconceived notions. It is blatantly false, and even you
would admit this, if your heart was not so deeply committed to lies
Baloney. The proof is in people's hearts,
Here you conveniently snip the rest of my post in a vain attempt to
substantiate your weak point.
Post by Matthew Johnson
You ask as if that were relevant. It is not. None of these surgeries
make the subject look like what they are not.
Baloney. A face-lift can make a person look quite different. Breast
implants, using your logic, are also a lie as they artificially
inflate the breasts.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your elective surgery
does. It makes you look female, when in truth you are male.
These sentences contain two falsehoods. First, SRS is NOT elective.
Ask any surgeon who performs the surgery, or any therapist experienced
in gender dysphoria, though I doubt you will. Indeed, a trans woman in
Minnesota successfully sued Medica insurance when they denied her SRS,
by basing her case on the medical neccessity of the surgery.

Secondly, unless you know my chromosomal makeup you cannot state
unequivocally that I was born male. Some babies are born a phenotype
male with XY configuration. Is that baby male or female? Many
transsexuals have chromosomal abnormalities, such as XXY, XXYY, etc.
Were they born male or female?
Post by Matthew Johnson
This _is_ a preconceived notion. Scripture NEVER says there is no harm
there. But you cling so VERY tightly to this preconceived notion.
Then provide the sections were the harm is described.

No where in Bible does it address transgender. The closest are eunuchs
who were castrated males that took care of harems. Jesus
said_nothing_about transgender, nor homosexuality.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org
Matthew Johnson
2007-07-05 00:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
The point is (as I said) not everyone is going to accept what I say,
nor what_you_say.
No, that is NOT the point. That you think it is shows you _missed_ the
point.
Then what is the point? I'll be interested to see how you squirm out
of this one.
No squirming necessary, at least not for me. Now you, on the other
hand, will have to squirm. For if you didn't know the point, what
_did_ you think you were doing?

Now let's go back to the original context, no matter how much it pains
you. And yes, I already know that it does pain you, since you
specifically asked the Moderator to allow the 'X-no-archive' header in
your posts so that you can run away from facing your own words.

The original context, from msg-id Lzlgi.11351$***@trnddc06 is:

Begin quote---------------------
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
You imply I read the Bible with preconceived notions. This is not
true.
What? Do you really expect anyone to take your word for this? Why should we?
Why, every single one of your posts reveals which disastrous "preconceived
notions" you insist on following as you pervert the Biblical text to fit your
preconcieved notions.
It's "preconceived." ;)

I don't expect everyone who reads this ng to take my word. Likewise,
you can't expect any different.
End quote------------

So now reading your words, "You imply I read the Bible with
preconceived notions", we see the _point_ is whether or not you read
it with preconceived notions.

That this is the point is immediately confirmed by my reply to your
shameless words, which _also_ has the same point: What? Do you really
expect anyone to take your word for this? Why should we?"

Now let's compare this with what you _later_ say is the point: "not
everyone is going to accept what I say".

Now _think_ this time: how _do_ these compare? Are they identical? No,
they are not. So how can you claim that whether people _accept_ what
you say has anything to do with the point?

You cannot, except by turning to subterfuge. So of course, after
seeing this, I will assume that your motive for claiming the point is
'acceptance' is subterfuge. Do not make the mistake of thinking that I
will be alone in making this assumption. For your posts _reek_ of
dishonest simulations of reasoning.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
Obviously, some free-thinkers here do agree with me, as has been
stated in the past in this forum and in emails.
So what? If I post a post claiming that the Bible teaches
reincarnation, some 'free-thinkers' will agree. Does that make them
right? NO!
Just because the Bible, according to you, doesn't refer to
reincarnation doesn't make it false.
Yet again, you demonstrate your inability to read, and even your
absolute hatred for logical reasoning.

I _never_ said that it is false because the Bible does not refer to
it. In fact, I did not explain at all why it is false. I merely stated
that it is false.

It is all too well known, both among believing Bible scholars and even
among unbelieving, that the Bible does _not_ teach reincarnation, that
reincarnation is from a religious tradition quite incompatible with
both Judaism and Christianity.

Why, it is so well known, I should not have to even go into this much
detail. It is certainly not the topic for this thread.
Post by shegeek72
The Bible doesn't mention a lot of things, like meditation or yoga,
yet millions of people have benefited from them.
A lot of people 'benefit' from graft, corruption and protection
rackets, also not mentioned by such names in the Bible; that doesn't
make them right. Nor does it mean that the Bible teaches them.

Do you _really_ have this much trouble staying on topic? Do you
_really_ have this much trouble following a logical argument and
responding to it?
Post by shegeek72
But the salient point is you, nor anyone, has lock, stock and barrel
on what exactly the Bible says.
You call it the 'salient' point, yet you are missing a word. Some
salient that is!

Again: I never said that it did. But you are falling into a
particularly childish fallacy by even _mentioning_ this point
here. The word of someone who knows what he is talking about carries
more weight than the word of someone who does not.

Since you prate about the Bible teaching reincarnation, and people
benefiting from yoga etc., you make it pretty clear that you fall into
the latter category.

But even that isn't low enough for you. You have to sink even lower by
taking the word of people who know even less, or even deliberately lie
about what they know, such as John Boswell.
Post by shegeek72
Especially when you, and some others, do and don't take into context
and cultural practices at the time.
It is you, not I, who is guilty of this fault. It is you who regularly
ignore the context, and resort to a _fictitious_ version of the
"cultural practices at the time".

The _real_ Semitic "cultural practice at the time" was to kill people
who engaged in homosexual activity, whether prostitution or not. Face
up to that fact.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
There is _nothing_ honest about your claim to read the Bible
without preconceived notions. It is blatantly false, and even
you would admit this, if your heart was not so deeply committed
to lies
Baloney. The proof is in people's hearts,
Here you conveniently snip the rest of my post in a vain attempt to
substantiate your weak point.
Ah, I see you are imitating my style of attack now, but only
superficially -- predictably superficially.

I do not _have_ a "weak point". Nor did I snip to 'substantiate'
it. Unlike you, I _do_ understand logical reasoning, so I know it is
not possible to substantiate a point by snipping.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
You ask as if that were relevant. It is not. None of these surgeries
make the subject look like what they are not.
Baloney.
You really should learn another word to start your attempted rebuttals
with.
Post by shegeek72
A face-lift can make a person look quite different.
So what? You miss the point. It still leaves the human face looking
like a human face, albeit artificially younger. It even leaves a
female face looking female. 'SRS' does not do this; it is quite
different.
Post by shegeek72
Breast implants, using your logic, are also a lie as they
artificially inflate the breasts.
No, that is not using _my_ logic. That is using your illogic to make a
straw-man argument.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your elective surgery does. It makes you look female, when in truth
you are male.
These sentences contain two falsehoods.
No, they are not 'falsehoods'.
Post by shegeek72
First, SRS is NOT elective.
Sure, it is.
Post by shegeek72
Ask any surgeon who performs the surgery, or any therapist experienced
in gender dysphoria, though I doubt you will.
You miss the point. They are not the most reliable sources of this
information because of their monetary motive and poor training in
ethics.
Post by shegeek72
Indeed, a trans woman in Minnesota successfully sued Medica insurance
when they denied her SRS, by basing her case on the medical
neccessity of the surgery.
This is no proof of your point. So _what_ if a single person sued and
won? All that means is that one jury was convinced. And even if they
were right in her case, by _no_ means would it prove that _all_ 'SRS'
is elective.
Post by shegeek72
Secondly, unless you know my chromosomal makeup you cannot state
unequivocally that I was born male.
This isn't true either. But you find it convenient to insist on this
fiction as a prop for your propaganda.
Post by shegeek72
Some babies are born a phenotype male with XY configuration. Is that
baby male or female? Many transsexuals have chromosomal
abnormalities, such as XXY, XXYY, etc. Were they born male or
female?
You miss the point. You yourself admit you never had the genetic
testing done, so you do NOT have any grounds to think that you are one
of them.

Not to mention we have been over this before: the high-school bio
definition is inadequate: it is the _expression_ of the SRY region of
the chromosome, NOT the mere presence of X and Y, that determine the
sex of the individual.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
This _is_ a preconceived notion. Scripture NEVER says there is no harm
there. But you cling so VERY tightly to this preconceived notion.
Then provide the sections were the harm is described.
You miss the point yet again. I already explained that it does not
describe the harm, nor does it need to.
Post by shegeek72
No where in Bible does it address transgender.
You miss the point yet again. It doesn't _have_ to, since the fraud of
'transgender' procedures was beyond their technology.
Post by shegeek72
The closest are eunuchs who were castrated males that took care of
harems. Jesus said_nothing_about transgender, nor homosexuality.
This is blatantly false. If you really did follow the context and
culture as you _claim_ to do, you would realize he condemned it in:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery,
fornication, theft, false witness, slander. (Mat 15:19 RSVA)

Now don't forget that the word translated 'fornication' is MUCH wider
than the modern English term: it covers _any_ form of sexual
immorality.

Finally, notice that 'fornication' is here listed among many
abominable practices; the desire to do the things you endorse are evil
thoughts coming out of the heart's treasure house of evil things (Mat
12:35)
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
shegeek72
2007-07-09 02:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Now let's go back to the original context, no matter how much it pains
you. And yes, I already know that it does pain you, since you
specifically asked the Moderator to allow the 'X-no-archive' header in
your posts so that you can run away from facing your own words.
Uh, no. I didn't ask the mod to use the 'no archive' in the header.
You're caught in one lie already. If you don't believe me, ask him.
Post by Matthew Johnson
A lot of people 'benefit' from graft, corruption and protection
rackets, also not mentioned by such names in the Bible; that doesn't
make them right. Nor does it mean that the Bible teaches them.
Perhaps if you attended a yoga class, or tried meditation, you'd
understand there's nothing harmful in either. They are both found in
Eastern spiritualities.
Post by Matthew Johnson
The _real_ Semitic "cultural practice at the time" was to kill people
who engaged in homosexual activity, whether prostitution or not. Face
up to that fact.
There was homosexual prostitution and homosexual rape used as a means
of humiliation. These account for the prohibitions on homosexuality in
the Bible.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your elective surgery does. It makes you look female, when in truth
you are male.
Debatable. Research indicates MTF transsexuals are born with female
brains and vice-versa for FTMs.
Post by Matthew Johnson
You miss the point. You yourself admit you never had the genetic
testing done, so you do NOT have any grounds to think that you are one
of them.
And YOU do not have any proof for claiming I was born XY either.
Post by Matthew Johnson
You miss the point yet again. It doesn't _have_ to, since the fraud of
'transgender' procedures was beyond their technology.
There still must have been transgender people back then.

Typically, when people have issues with homosexuality or
transexuality, it's because they have their own suppressed sexuality
and gender issues.
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarafoundation.org

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org
Matthew Johnson
2007-07-16 00:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
Now let's go back to the original context, no matter how much it pains
you. And yes, I already know that it does pain you, since you
specifically asked the Moderator to allow the 'X-no-archive' header in
your posts so that you can run away from facing your own words.
Uh, no. I didn't ask the mod to use the 'no archive' in the header.
You're caught in one lie already. If you don't believe me, ask him.
No, I am not "caught in one lie". You are. You really did ask the
Moderator to allow 'X-No-Archive' (which his moderation software
normally strips out). He even told you how to get Google to honor it.

But of course, since you were successful for at least a brief time,
the posts where you discussed this are not _in_ Google. You have
hidden your tracks well.

But there is one such set of tracks you have failed to hide: you have
failed to hide your use of mock indignation as a cover for your
refusal to return to the original context and admit your error or
deception.

If you had returned to it, you would have answered the point I made:

So now reading your words, "You imply I read the Bible with
preconceived notions", we see the _point_ is whether or not you read
it with preconceived notions.

That this is the point is immediately confirmed by my reply to your
shameless words, which _also_ has the same point: "What? Do you really
expect anyone to take your word for this? Why should we?"

Now let's compare this with what you _later_ say is the point: "not
everyone is going to accept what I say".

Now _think_ this time: how _do_ these compare? Are they identical? No,
they are not. So how can you claim that whether people _accept_ what
you say has anything to do with the point?

You cannot, except by turning to subterfuge. So of course, after
seeing this, I will assume that your motive for claiming the point is
'acceptance' is subterfuge. Do not make the mistake of thinking that I
will be alone in making this assumption. For your posts _reek_ of
dishonest simulations of reasoning.

Now try answering it this time. THINK.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
A lot of people 'benefit' from graft, corruption and protection
rackets, also not mentioned by such names in the Bible; that doesn't
make them right. Nor does it mean that the Bible teaches them.
Perhaps if you attended a yoga class, or tried meditation, you'd
understand there's nothing harmful in either. They are both found in
Eastern spiritualities.
Then again, perhaps not. Perhaps I would see the harm you still do not
yet see done to yourself. After all: you failed to see the harm you do
to your own credibility by refusing to face the original context.

Despite what Merton thought, "Eastern Spiritualities" and Christianity
do NOT mix.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
The _real_ Semitic "cultural practice at the time" was to kill
people who engaged in homosexual activity, whether prostitution or
not. Face up to that fact.
There was homosexual prostitution and homosexual rape used as a means
of humiliation. These account for the prohibitions on homosexuality in
the Bible.
No, they do not account for it. This is one of the lies you keep on
repeating. They do not even get close to accounting for it.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your elective surgery does. It makes you look female, when in
truth you are male.
Debatable.
So why do you keep on dodging genuine debate? Why do you hide your
attempt to run away from facing teh original context under mock
indignation?
Post by shegeek72
Research indicates MTF transsexuals are born with female brains and
vice-versa for FTMs.
No, that is not what the research indicates. Rather, that is a
_highly_ questionable _interpretation_ of the already-biased
research. That 'research' is no more reliable than the company-funded
research the tobacco companies cited to claim that tobacco smoking
does not cause cancer.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
You miss the point. You yourself admit you never had the genetic
testing done, so you do NOT have any grounds to think that you are
one of them.
And YOU do not have any proof for claiming I was born XY either.
But as I already explained, that is quite beside the point. Stop
dodging the issue. You yourself give proof on your website that SRY
expression did take place. That makes you biologically MALE. No amount
of surgery and hormone 'therapy' can change that.
Post by shegeek72
Post by Matthew Johnson
You miss the point yet again. It doesn't _have_ to, since the fraud
of 'transgender' procedures was beyond their technology.
There still must have been transgender people back then.
Nonsense. YOU want to believe this fiction since it gives you a handy
excuse for your depravity. But is is fiction.
Post by shegeek72
Typically, when people have issues with homosexuality or
transexuality, it's because they have their own suppressed sexuality
and gender issues.
This too, is 'debatable'. But yet again, you studiously avoid true
debate, instead resorting to responding with sound-bites based on
total nonsense.
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Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
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