Discussion:
Was "Re: Heaven full of atheists ?"
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James
2007-10-30 02:23:30 UTC
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Re: Heaven full of atheists ?
Heaven full of atheists ?
It would amazing if there is a single atheist is heaven.
Assuming that heaven exists in the first place. By the way, theists for
centuries believed in the Aristotlian view of a geocentric universe (that
is, a universe where the Earth is at the center). In that view, the very
center of the Earth was the center of the universe. Interestingly, many of
these same theists viewed hell as being located deep within the Earth,
possibly the very center of the Earth. So, why would a religion take as a
tenent of its faith that the center of the universe is hell?
George
George,

What people believe, may or may not, represent accurate Bible truth.
The only real way to tell is to check their teachings against the
Bible itself. Actually, the Bible wants us to do things that way.
Notice the example set by the ancient Bereans. The apostle Paul went
preaching to them there. But they just didn't take his word for it
just because he said it. Ac 17:11,

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (NIV)

Concerning your reference to "hell" above, the Bible does not teach of
the popular 'hellfire' place. Even common sense should tell a person
that any person claiming to be a LOVING person, does not burn people
for punishment. (1 Jo 4:8)

The word translated as "hell" in the Bible, first comes from the
Hebrew word "sheol". And the Bible "sheol" is the common grave of dead
mankind, not some place of fire that burns living people.

For a brief example, the righteous man Job wanted to go to
"hell" (sheol) to get RELIEF from his pain, not add to it. Job 14:13,

"Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell [sheol],
and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt
remember me?" (Douay) (brackets mine)

That is why other translations substitute the word "grave" instead of
the word "hell" here. For example the popular KJV:

"O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, [sheol; hell] that thou
wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest
appoint me a set time, and remember me!" (KJV) (brackets mine)

There is a lot more that could be said on this subject of 'hellfire'
such as the symbolic "lake of fire". (yes it is clearly symbolic.
Notice what is tossed into it at Re 20:14). So just ask if you are
interested.


Sincerely, James

**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

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Matthew Johnson
2007-10-31 01:44:28 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by James
What people believe, may or may not, represent accurate Bible truth.
True. What you believe does not represent "accurate Bible truth" See
below.
Post by James
The only real way to tell is to check their teachings against the
Bible itself.
In case you have not noticed, this George does not find that "real
way" a real way to prove anything of substance.
Post by James
Actually, the Bible wants us to do things that way.
And why would George care?

[snip]
Post by James
Concerning your reference to "hell" above, the Bible does not teach
of the popular 'hellfire' place.
Sure, it does. See Luk 16:24 and Mat 25:41 below.
Post by James
Even common sense should tell a person that any person claiming to be
a LOVING person, does not burn people for punishment. (1 Jo 4:8)
But you miss the point: the warning of future punishments is a _gift_
to us to keep us from evil. It is not God who sends them there, He
made hell for the torment of the devil and his angels, NOT for men:

Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you
cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
(Mat 25:41 RSVA)
Post by James
The word translated as "hell" in the Bible, first comes from the
Hebrew word "sheol".
Careful now: that is true only of the OT word.
Post by James
And the Bible "sheol" is the common grave of dead mankind, not some
place of fire that burns living people.
You don't know that. Any good lexicon will explain its other
meanings. So, for example BDB has:

1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell pit
Post by James
For a brief example, the righteous man Job wanted to go to "hell"
(sheol) to get RELIEF from his pain, not add to it. Job 14:13,
Ah, but the one word you render "hell" has several different possible
meanings. Why are you so sure this is the right one here? It could
even be just 'pit'.
Post by James
"Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell [sheol],
and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt
remember me?" (Douay) (brackets mine)
Why are you using such a dated translation?
Post by James
That is why other translations substitute the word "grave" instead of
"O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, [sheol; hell] that thou
wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest
appoint me a set time, and remember me!" (KJV) (brackets mine)
Another very dated translation!
Post by James
There is a lot more that could be said on this subject of 'hellfire'
Yes, such as:

And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send
Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for
I am in anguish in this flame.' (Luk 16:24 RSVA)

Where did you think that 'flame' came from?
Post by James
such as the symbolic "lake of fire". (yes it is clearly symbolic.
No, that is not so clear. If it were, I would not be questioning
it. But here I am questioning it;)
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
George
2007-10-31 01:44:28 UTC
Permalink
"James" <***@peoplepc.com> wrote in message news:CAwVi.6564$R%***@trnddc05...
...
Post by James
Concerning your reference to "hell" above, the Bible does not teach of
the popular 'hellfire' place. Even common sense should tell a person
that any person claiming to be a LOVING person, does not burn people
for punishment. (1 Jo 4:8)
The word translated as "hell" in the Bible, first comes from the
Hebrew word "sheol". And the Bible "sheol" is the common grave of dead
mankind, not some place of fire that burns living people.
...

That's just great. So the next time an evangelical tells me that I am
going to go to hell if I don't repent, I can just take it as a compliment.
:-)

George
mcv
2007-11-01 00:57:10 UTC
Permalink
(I'm afraid I missed the original post)
Re: Heaven full of atheists ?
Heaven full of atheists ?
It would amazing if there is a single atheist is heaven.
It would be amazing if they remained atheists after entering heaven,
but other than that, I don't think it's a human's place to judge on
who gets to heaven and who doesn't. It's not something you earn, it
is entirely God's mercy, and he can bestow that on whomsoever he
chooses.

There are a lot of atheists of whom I hope they will go to heaven.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
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