Discussion:
Fulfilled Bible Prophecy
(too old to reply)
Pahu
2006-10-27 03:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Israel would be re-established as a united nation

Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Prophet: Ezekiel
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948

In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said about 2600 years ago that God
would one day bring the Jews back to Israel, as a united nation. Israel
had been split into two kingdoms in about 926 BC, called Judah and
Israel. But, when the Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so
as a united people, creating one nation-Israel.

Can man accurately reveal the future?
Can God?
gilgames
2006-10-31 02:12:49 UTC
Permalink
<<
Israel would be re-established as a united nation

Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Prophet: Ezekiel
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will
take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be
gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own
land:


Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the
mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they
shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two
kingdoms any more at all:


Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their
idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their
transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces,
wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my
people, and I will be their God.


There is no Kingdom

Most of them are godless people.

We have to wait for the fulfillment of this prophecy, if there is second
fulfillment (the first was after the Makkabei)
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-06 02:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
There is no Kingdom
2 Sam. 7:12-16 The Davidic Covenant -an unconditional covenant:

"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I
WILL raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you,
and I WILL establish his KINGDOM. He shall build a house for My name,
and I WILL establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I WILL be a
father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I
WILL correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of
men, but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away
from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your
KINGDOM shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be
established forever." ' "
Post by gilgames
Most of them are godless people.
That does not invalidate the "remnant."

Rom. 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it
never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the
tribe of Benjamin.

Rom. 11:19-21 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I
might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their
unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare
you.
Post by gilgames
We have to wait for the fulfillment of this prophecy, if there is second
fulfillment (the first was after the Makkabei)
Our hope is SURE. However, the hope of Israel is different than that
of the Church. The Kingdom Age if to Israel, no the Church. The
Kingdom Rule is not the Mosaic Law but the Beatitudes. Easier?
Hardly. Instead of the Lamb of God, His rule will be as the Lion of
Judah.

Rom. 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this
mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial
hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has
come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "
The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from
Jacob."

"All" Israel in the context of the Pauline argument is the believing
remnant within Israel. Daniel's 70th week, Zephaniah's "Day of Wrath,"
"Day of the Lord", Jeremiah's, "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and the
Messiah's own, "Great Tribulation" all speak of the purification of
remnant. The "Tribulation" will bring the chosen remnant to the point
where they will believe in "Him whom they pierced" at His 2nd coming.
THEN comes the separation of sheep and the goats, the wheat and the
tares, THEN comes the 1000 yr rule of Messiah on David's throne.
Deborah Moler
2006-10-31 02:12:50 UTC
Permalink
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief. You are
dreaming if you believe 1948 is of any prophetic significance.
Post by Pahu
Israel would be re-established as a united nation
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Prophet: Ezekiel
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said about 2600 years ago that God
would one day bring the Jews back to Israel, as a united nation. Israel
had been split into two kingdoms in about 926 BC, called Judah and
Israel. But, when the Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so
as a united people, creating one nation-Israel.
Can man accurately reveal the future?
Can God?
zach
2006-11-01 01:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deborah Moler
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief.
How did you conclude that? Did you take a poll?
Matthew Johnson
2006-11-01 01:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deborah Moler
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief. You are
dreaming if you believe 1948 is of any prophetic significance.
Unfortunately, thanks to the irrational appeal of 'dispensationalism', this
dream is very popular in the English speaking, Protestant-dominated world right
now.

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
zach
2006-11-02 01:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Deborah Moler
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief. You are
dreaming if you believe 1948 is of any prophetic significance.
Unfortunately, thanks to the irrational appeal of 'dispensationalism', this
dream is very popular in the English speaking, Protestant-dominated world right
now.
And it is pretty popular with Israelis, too (funny how we forget about
them!).
gilgames
2006-11-02 01:37:48 UTC
Permalink
<<
How did you conclude that? Did you take a poll?
It depends on the standard. Here is God's standard:

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his
statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come
upon thee, and overtake thee:
zach
2006-11-03 03:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
<<
How did you conclude that? Did you take a poll?
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his
statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come
What are you saying, that there are no observant Jews in Israel? The
Israelis I know: believe in God, believe in The Bible, are observant
(after their particular flabor of Judaism, and here Christians can
hardly judge the heterogeneity of the religion) believe in the promises
that God made with their forefathers with regard to the land of Israel.
If you are really trying to make this argument, then one might as well
say that the Christian Church has forfeited its inheritance because it
contains unbelievers and apostates. What exactly _are_ you trying to
say?
Matthew Johnson
2006-11-03 03:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Deborah Moler
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief. You are
dreaming if you believe 1948 is of any prophetic significance.
Unfortunately, thanks to the irrational appeal of 'dispensationalism', this
dream is very popular in the English speaking, Protestant-dominated world right
now.
And it is pretty popular with Israelis, too (funny how we forget about
them!).
Well, no, I didn't _forget_ them. I make a distinction between the
Messianism/Zionism among Israelis and the dispensationalism among Protestants.

Also, I remember how surprised the Israelies were to discover that the US
government was so much under the sway of dispensationalists when they first
tried to gain support in the White House and Congress after 1948. Surprised and
delighted, they have never ceased to take advantage of it since.
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2006-11-06 02:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
<<
How did you conclude that? Did you take a poll?
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the
B - Uhm...sorry but that is words in the Bible...whether it be "God's
standard" is up to God to say.

Bren
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-06 02:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Deborah Moler
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief. You are
dreaming if you believe 1948 is of any prophetic significance.
Unfortunately, thanks to the irrational appeal of 'dispensationalism', this
dream is very popular in the English speaking, Protestant-dominated world right
now.
And it is the antisemitism which still abounds, even in the OC, which
denies the plain teaching of the scriptures.

Rom. 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it
never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the
tribe of Benjamin.

Yes, the OC is doctrinally and politically antisemtic. During a debate
in Vatican II, it was an Orthodox prelate which declared that no matter
what the Council would declare, nothing would alter the perpetual guilt
of the Jews as for the death of Christ. The Jerusalem Times later
caricatured the Council over its schema: "Father, forgive them, they
know not what the do" (in "exonerating" the Jews for Christ's death).

Let's put away the masks. Declare your hate for Israel. Declare your
hate for any "Christian" or theological school which yet retains the NT
and Apostolic teachings that Israel remains an distinquishable entity
within the economy of God.

The fact is, the disciple's believed in and preached that the Nation of
Israel would inherit the promises of the Kingdom. "LORD, WILL YOU AT
THIS TIME RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?" (Acts 1:6) The "mystery" of
the Church Age is that the dynamic of the Messianic challenge was that
"Christianity" would, by in large" be rejected by the Nation and would
then pass on into the Gentile nations. "To the Jew first."
Christianity is first and foremost as JEWISH Messianic faith. It will
never cease to be rooted and founded upon the promises made to ISRAEL.
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-06 02:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deborah Moler
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief. You are
dreaming if you believe 1948 is of any prophetic significance.
Is was "dry bones" which were gattered. The first regathering into the
land is by an unbelieving Israel. The regathering at the 2nd Advent is
of the believing remnant which will then inherit the convenant promises
given_to_Israel. It has great prophetic significance.
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-06 02:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
I make a distinction between the
Messianism/Zionism among Israelis and the dispensationalism among Protestants.
Then you are doubly in error. For every Messianic Jew I have ever
known or read about is a dispensationalist. Read the writtings of
Mehanhem Benhayim, or Fruchtenbaum, or Lewis Goldberg (my own teacher),
Charles Geinberg, or Lewis Bauman, or Benjamin Baur, or Peter Van
Woerden. I could go on and on but the point is made.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Also, I remember how surprised the Israelies were to discover that the US
government was so much under the sway of dispensationalists when they first
tried to gain support in the White House and Congress after 1948. Surprised and
delighted, they have never ceased to take advantage of it since.
As pagan nations were a tool in the hand of YHVH to displine Israel, so
they equally are to bless Israel.

Gen. 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses
you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be
blessed. "
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-06 02:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
<<
How did you conclude that? Did you take a poll?
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his
statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come
However, you make the same mistake that the Judiazers of the NT era
did. You fail to account for the fact that Abraham was called out from
the nations prior to the giving of the Law. The existance of the
nation of Israel within the Plan of God does not hinge upon their
faithfulness, but on His faithfulness.

Mal. 3:6 "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of
Jacob, are not consumed.
Mal. 3:17 "And they will be Mine," says the Lord of hosts, "on the day
that *I* prepare My own possession, and *I* will spare them as a man
spares his own son who serves him."
Mal. 3:18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the
wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.

You stand with the higher criticism and its need to disavow the
promises granted over and over in Isaiah.

Is. 54:4-10 "Fear not, for you [Israel] will not be put to shame;
Neither feel humiliated, for you [Israel] will not be disgraced; But
you will forget the shame of your youth, And the reproach of your
widowhood you will remember no more. For your Husband is your Maker,
whose name is the Lord of hosts; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of
Israel, who is called the God of all the earth. For the Lord has called
you [Israel], like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, even like a
wife of one's youth when she is rejected," says your God. For a brief
moment I forsook you, but with great compassion I will gather you. In
an outburst of anger I hid My face from you [Israel] for a moment; but
with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you," says
the Lord your Redeemer. "For this is like the days of Noah to Me; when
I swore that the waters of Noah should not flood the earth again, so I
have sworn that I will not be angry with you, nor will I rebuke you
[Israel]. For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, but
My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, and
My_covenant_of_peace_will_not_be_shaken," says the Lord who has
compassion on you.


Is. 62:4 It will no longer be said to you, "Forsaken," nor to your LAND
will it any longer be said, "Desolate"; but you will be called, "My
delight is in her," and your LAND, "Married"; for the Lord delights in
you, and to Him your LAND will be married.

Is. 66:9 "Shall I bring to the point of birth, and not give delivery?"
says the Lord. "Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your
God.


You would have us believe that God is an abortionist! selah!
n***@hotmail.com
2006-11-06 02:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
<<
How did you conclude that? Did you take a poll?
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the
voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his
statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come
Why are you quoting a verse out of context from the Old Testament? God
has given us only one standard in the Bible, which is explained in CCC
#846 - #848

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#846

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

Israel is a Christian nation because it has diplomatic ties with
Vatican City and allows evangelism of its citizens by the World
Evangelical Alliance, the leading ecumenical organisation that is in a
cold war with the rival, World Council of Churches.

Also, according to the statistics of U.S.-based National Association of
Evangelicals (NAE), a national American ecumenical body whose
membership comprises of conservative Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox,
Israel has one of the world's fastest growing Christian churches. The
others are South Korea, and Ghana, Singapore, Japan, etc.

The fastest growing religion is Israel is Russian Orthodox. There are
many Russian-speaking Messianic congregations under the Jerusalem
Orthodox Church. These Orthodox Christians are staunch Zionists and
their parishes use both Hebrew and Russian for the liturgy.

OTOH, Palestine is an Islamic fascist state that allows Arab race to
practises apartheid towards Copt race and Chaldean race. Islam is a
form of racism, colonism, and imperialism. This Arab apartheid is no
different from South African apartheid and must be stopped to prevent a
humanitarian crisis from occuring. We must urge our governments to cut
of all diplomatic and trade ties to Palestine until its authority
emulates the new Iraq by declaring Syriac an official language
side-by-side Arabic and Kurdish.
gilgames
2006-11-06 02:57:04 UTC
Permalink
<<
What are you saying, that there are no observant Jews in Israel?
.
15% of the Jews are observant worldwide.
n***@hotmail.com
2006-11-06 02:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by zach
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Deborah Moler
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief. You are
dreaming if you believe 1948 is of any prophetic significance.
Unfortunately, thanks to the irrational appeal of 'dispensationalism', this
dream is very popular in the English speaking, Protestant-dominated world right
now.
And it is pretty popular with Israelis, too (funny how we forget about
them!).
I make a distinction between the
Messianism/Zionism among Israelis and the dispensationalism among Protestants.
Any honest person will admit Messianic Judaism is Christianity
especially since Zionist Christianity is no different from Arabist
Christianity, Syriac Christianity, Coptic Christianity and Hellenist
(Greek) Christianity. Its just another culture. Messianic Judaism is
the fastest growing religion in Israel and we consider them Christians
because they confess Nicene Creed too, except that they do it in Hebrew
language. The Jerusalem Orthodox Church has started many
Hebrew-speaking congregations for her Jewish sheep.

http://www2.orthodox.gr/messianicjudaism/orthodoxchristian.html
Post by Matthew Johnson
Also, I remember how surprised the Israelies were to discover that the US
government was so much under the sway of dispensationalists when they first
tried to gain support in the White House and Congress after 1948. Surprised and
delighted, they have never ceased to take advantage of it since.
As you have not provided any references to prove you are speaking the
truth, why should we believe you? Israel has a large Russian Orthodox
community according to this source.

http://www2.orthodox.gr/messianicjudaism/orthodoxchristian.html#russian

That Orthodox source tells us that while Arab Orthodox are declining in
Palestine mostly due to persecution from Muslims, the Russian Orthodox
are increasing in Israel and more Hebrew-speaking congregations
opening. This source tells us that USA is not the only Zionist
Christian country, but there are also other countries that have a high
percentage of Zionist Christians, such as Australia, Canada, Germany,
Sweden, Denmark, Ukraine, Georgia, Russia and TURKEY!

Zionism is rising fast in non-English speaking countries, especially
Catholic countries as well as predominantly Orthodox Christian lands.

Matthew, if you take the time and effort to read Catholic Answers Forum
(http://forum.catholic.com), you will enlighten yourself that many
Catholics there are Zionist! You will be SHOCKED that Zionist
Christianity is not exclusively Protestant but there exists Zionists
(both clergy and laity) in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
gilgames
2006-11-07 02:43:03 UTC
Permalink
B - Uhm...sorry but that is words in the Bible...whether it be "God's
standard" is up to God to say.

Bren
God gave us understanding, and want us to use our understanding.
Matthew Johnson
2006-11-07 02:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@hotmail.com
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by zach
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Deborah Moler
The problem is that Israel is presently in a state of unbelief. You are
dreaming if you believe 1948 is of any prophetic significance.
Unfortunately, thanks to the irrational appeal of 'dispensationalism', this
dream is very popular in the English speaking, Protestant-dominated world
right
Post by zach
Post by Matthew Johnson
now.
And it is pretty popular with Israelis, too (funny how we forget about
them!).
I make a distinction between the
Messianism/Zionism among Israelis and the dispensationalism among Protestants.
Any honest person will admit Messianic Judaism is Christianity
No. See below.
Post by n***@hotmail.com
especially since Zionist Christianity is no different from Arabist
Christianity, Syriac Christianity, Coptic Christianity and Hellenist
(Greek) Christianity.
What? How can you say such a thing? Have you ever compared "Zionist
Christianity" with what the Patriarcahte of Damascus teaches on its own website?
The two are as different as night and day.
Post by n***@hotmail.com
Its just another culture. Messianic Judaism is
the fastest growing religion in Israel and we consider them Christians
because they confess Nicene Creed too, except that they do it in Hebrew
language.
Uniates confess the Nicene Creed too, yet nobody considers them Orthodox. The
Pope even allows them to confes the Creed w/o the Filioque. But they are still
Catholics.
Post by n***@hotmail.com
The Jerusalem Orthodox Church has started many
Hebrew-speaking congregations for her Jewish sheep.
Now that is surprising news to me. Nevertheless, though I haven't studied them I
really do expect that they would differ wildly from "Messianic Judaism" as is
found in the US, which really does have strong heretical tendencies.
Post by n***@hotmail.com
http://www2.orthodox.gr/messianicjudaism/orthodoxchristian.html
Either your URL is incorrect, or the site is not reliable. It has been down
whenever I tried it.
Post by n***@hotmail.com
Post by Matthew Johnson
Also, I remember how surprised the Israelies were to discover that the US
government was so much under the sway of dispensationalists when they first
tried to gain support in the White House and Congress after 1948. Surprised and
delighted, they have never ceased to take advantage of it since.
As you have not provided any references to prove you are speaking the
truth, why should we believe you?
You could Google it yourself. It is really not that hard. Unfortunately, the
article I _would_ have used as my source, the "Christianity Today" article on
dispensationalism, is now pay-only access.
Post by n***@hotmail.com
Israel has a large Russian Orthodox
community according to this source.
Of course it does. But these people are NOT "messianic jews".
Post by n***@hotmail.com
http://www2.orthodox.gr/messianicjudaism/orthodoxchristian.html#russian
That Orthodox source tells us that while Arab Orthodox are declining in
Palestine mostly due to persecution from Muslims, the Russian Orthodox
are increasing in Israel and more Hebrew-speaking congregations
opening. This source tells us that USA is not the only Zionist
Christian country, but there are also other countries that have a high
percentage of Zionist Christians, such as Australia, Canada, Germany,
Sweden, Denmark, Ukraine, Georgia, Russia and TURKEY!
Zionism is rising fast in non-English speaking countries, especially
Catholic countries as well as predominantly Orthodox Christian lands.
Matthew, if you take the time and effort to read Catholic Answers Forum
(http://forum.catholic.com),
You complain about my not giving references, and you come up with _this_ vauge
reference?
Post by n***@hotmail.com
you will enlighten yourself that many
Catholics there are Zionist! You will be SHOCKED that Zionist
Christianity is not exclusively Protestant but there exists Zionists
(both clergy and laity) in the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
I can't even be sure that you and I are using "zionist" or "zionist
Christianity" or "messianic christianity" in the same sense. But if we are, then
that is very bad news. For Zionism and Messianic Christianity are both based on
a heretical eschatology, 'millenialism', which has been recognized as heretical
by both Rome and the Orthodox for centuries now.
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

---

[I get "no such domain" for www2.orthodox.gr from both DNS servers
listed for orthodox.gr. However it appears that orthodox.gr is being
reorganized as ec-patr.gr. Google doesn't find the words messianic and
judiasm anywhere under orthodox.gr or its apparent replacement,
ec-patr.gr. I didn't try searching for the Greek equivalent. --clh]
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-08 01:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@hotmail.com
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
The "Church." Would be nice to have that word defined by you.

That aside for the moment, in the present dispensation, salvation
is only offered through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
He alone is the object of faith presently. This was not always
the case. In the past the object of faith were the promises of
God. This is proved true by the NT witness in Acts where the
followers of John the Baptist were "saved" but they had not yet
entered into the new dispensation of the indwelling Spirit. It
would be wrong to confuse the two. With the advent of the long
promised Messiah, salvation by faith is now only won through
the object of faith being Jesus and His vicarious life and death
which wins for the believer Christ's righteousness.

So, if your definition of "Church" simply implies "the body of
Christ" or in Pauline terms, being "in Christ," then you have
made a biblically valid statement.

However, after the "departure", the membership of the "body/
bride of Christ" is no longer open. This is evidenced by the
wedding having already taken place as noted in Rev 19 when
Christ returns to earth at the end of the tribulation to establish
His 1000 yr earthly kingdom. Those save during the Millennium
are also outside of the "Church/body/bride of Christ." This is
part of the mystery element of the Kingdom.
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-08 01:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@hotmail.com
Israel is a Christian nation
There is no such thing as a "Christian nation." Election within
the Church is strictly individual as distinquished from the nature
of the election of Israel as a nation. The hope of Israel is certainly
a Messianic Kingdom, a nation wherein the Messiah reigns on
the throne of David. But this is very much different than the
common understanding of "Christian" as meaning the "Church."
B.G. Kent
2006-11-08 01:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
God gave us understanding, and want us to use our understanding.
I agree with your opinion.
What it had to do with what I said....I'm not sure.

Blessings
Bren
gilgames
2006-11-08 01:21:54 UTC
Permalink
<<
I can't even be sure that you and I are using "zionist" or "zionist
Christianity" or "messianic christianity" in the same sense. But if we
are, then that is very bad news. For Zionism and Messianic
Christianity are both based on a heretical eschatology,
'millenialism', which has been recognized as heretical
by both Rome and the Orthodox for centuries now.
Although the Roman Catholic Church never believed in the
Millenarianism, the Church officialy denouced it only in 1941.

http://www.pford.stjohnsem.edu/ford/courses/church-in-consummation/docs/Millenarianism.pdf

The Roman Catholic Church believes that Christ is the King (although
not in this immanent world), and also that the Jews will repent before
the end of word, and accept the the historical Christ as the Messiah.

laszlo
Matthew Johnson
2006-11-10 03:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
<<
I can't even be sure that you and I are using "zionist" or "zionist
Christianity" or "messianic christianity" in the same sense. But if we
are, then that is very bad news. For Zionism and Messianic
Christianity are both based on a heretical eschatology,
'millenialism', which has been recognized as heretical
by both Rome and the Orthodox for centuries now.
Although the Roman Catholic Church never believed in the
Millenarianism, the Church officialy denouced it only in 1941.
Read it more closely. That is _moderate_ or _mitigated_ millenarianism that was
condemned only in 1941. Other forms were condemned long ago.
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-10 03:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
Although the Roman Catholic Church never believed in the
Millenarianism, the Church officialy denouced it only in 1941.
http://www.pford.stjohnsem.edu/ford/courses/church-in-consummation/docs/Millenarianism.pdf
The Roman Catholic Church believes that Christ is the King (although
not in this immanent world), and also that the Jews will repent before
the end of word, and accept the the historical Christ as the Messiah.
and they are wrong in doing so. They are wrong in that they have
fallen
prey to a false hermeneutic which arose out of Alexandria. The Popish
or Augustininan view makes the church of this dispensation the
fulfillment
of the Kingdom. It disallows any future fulfillment therefore denies
a future and literal Millennial Kingdom.

Only Chiliasm has both history and the normative grammatical
interpretation of Scripture as a foundation and a verification.


The disciple's of Christ clearly understood the Kingdom from a
literal interpretation. This is the straight forward assertion by
Christ Himself (Mt 13:11; Mk 4:11)

Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery
of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in
parables,

"Mystery" denotes something which was previously not revealed
to men, but has now come into view. It is merely that which had
previously been hidden. Also, it does NOT refer to the "nature"
of the Kingdom but rather to its "manner of establishment, the
means employed, the preparation for it, the time for its manifesta-
tion, and such related subjects." [Peters, "Theocratic Kingdom,
Vol. 1, p142]

"Mystery" necessitates the fact that there was a previous
understanding concerning the Kingdom. The removal of that
which was hidden previously is not the fact of it's nature, i.e.
that it is to be literally established and fulfilled as literally
prescribed in the OT covenants, but the removal was with
a purpose to bestow a fuller knowledge concerning it's
advent.

The Kingdom, the literal 1000 year reign of Messiah in Jerusalem,
seated on the throne of David while the believing remnant of
elect Israel not only inhabits but rules over the entire promised
land boundries, is all ground in a literal reading of the Jewish
Testament prophecies and covenants. If God really intended
man to know His plan for the ages, that is, to have a real
loaf of bread when asked for, not a stone, then it follows that
to secure a true knowledge on our part, He must convey His
truth to us in accordance with the well-established and known
rules of grammar and language. He must adapt Himself to our
mode of thinking. All revelation must be anthropomorphic. If
His will is to be followed as commanded, then it must be
understood employing language to convey the sense intended,
agreeably to the laws grammatically expressed and controling
all language.

The many-ed exhortations to search the scripture and the
many examples, especially in Acts, of verification of new
doctrine all appealed to a literal understanding of revelation
given. Accountability requires that there first be accessability.
It would be an evil thing to manuever the Word of God as the
allegorical methodology does, to place an obligation on man
to know God's word and will without there being a normal
ablity to comprehend it. Allegorical interpretation is relativistic
and recondite is sensibility. Allegorical interpretation is
uncertain, prejudical in nature and provides no sure or safe
foundation on which to build faith. Those who disagree, I
ask only one question of you. Which doctrine, arising from
an allegorical interpretation, are you willing to die for?
gilgames
2006-11-11 04:35:27 UTC
Permalink
<<
Only Chiliasm has both history and the normative grammatical
interpretation of Scripture as a foundation and a verification.
The reformation used it against the Roman Catholic Church: the 'papism
' is over, here is the time for the thousand years glory.
Unfortunately it did not came.

What are the biblical references?
gilgames
2006-11-11 04:35:27 UTC
Permalink
<<
Read it more closely. That is _moderate_ or _mitigated_ millenarianism
that was
condemned only in 1941. Other forms were condemned long ago.
When? The question is around definitely since the reformation, neither
the Tridentinum, nor the Vaticanum I condemned it.

Here is the article from the Catholic Catechism

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the
world every time the claim is made to realize within history that
messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the
eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms
of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of
millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political
form of a secular messianism.578

577 Cf. DS 3839.
578 Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris, condemning the "false mysticism" of
this "counterfeit of the redemption of the lowly"; cf. GS 20-21.
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-13 02:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
<<
Read it more closely. That is _moderate_ or _mitigated_ millenarianism
that was
condemned only in 1941. Other forms were condemned long ago.
When? The question is around definitely since the reformation, neither
the Tridentinum, nor the Vaticanum I condemned it.
The scriptural position of the early church (100-200AD) is clearly
documented insisting that the prophecies pertaining to the Jewish
nation, while conditional as to individuals, and to the nation for a
certain determined period of time, would finally be realized as
originally covenanted in the scriptures. The prophecies relating to
the future glory of the Jewish nation, though indeed postponed on the
account of the religious leaders failure to accept Jesus as the
Messiah, are not conditional but present men with the ultimate purpose
of the Plan of God -the establisment of the Kingdom.

Is to Jerome, particularly, that the modern church is indebted as to
the eradication of early church doctrinal position concerning the
Kingdom. In his note on Isa. 11:10-16, Jerome lays the foundation for
his broad and erroneous canon:

Quote:

Let the wise and Christian reader take this rule for prophetical
promises, that those things which the Jews and ours, not ours (but)
Judaizers,hold to be going to take place carnall, we should teach to
have already taken place spritually, lest by occasion of fables and
inexplicable questions of that sort (as the apostle calls them), we
should be compelled to Judaise."

End quote. [Fairbairn, "On Prophecy" ; p. 254)

Peters rightly exclaimes:

Quote:

Under the plea of carnality (read Origen, "De Principle", ch. 1. s. 22;
a deliberate perversion of Rom 9:8), which is made to cover the
grammatical sense and literal fulfilment, the prophecies are to be
spiritualized, no matter how, only so that they teach nothing which may
be accounted, "Jewish."

The gospel accounts are clear, the kingdom is perpetual. The national
pre-eminence of the Jews, even thus accounted by Jesus and the
disciples, was oritinal and real, being founded on the covenant
promises (Heb 6: 17, 18) and though for a time "the times of the
Gentiles" (Lk 21:24; Rom 11:25) they are nationally rejected and yet
the perpetuity of this covenant relationship is manifested by the oath
of God and the assurances given of its fulfillment, the continued
preservation of the nation, the predictions of its future restoration
and pre-eminence and the necessity of Gentiles being ingrafted into the
"commonwealth of Israel" becoming the adopted "children of Abraham" in
order to receive the promises under the covenants.

The scriptures are again clear that "the Kingdom of heaven is at hand"
is NOT addressed to Gentiles, but only to the Jews. John the Baptist
and even Jesus carefully avoided this when speaking of the Kingdom to
the Gentiles. The reason being that the Kingdom belonged to the Jews
and until the call of the Gentiles was entered into on account of
Jewish unbelief, the message pertained to the Jews and those adopted as
Jews.

Ultimately, the Kingdom was then extended *from* the Jews to the
Gentiles as indicated plainly by the prophecies. Moses in Deut 32:21,
43, foretells the anticipated unbelief with the precipitate rejection
for a time. The Jewish belief based upon Mac 2:7, that the Messiah was
to be the "King of the World", hints at the "mystery" aspect of the
Kingdom, i.e. the inclussion of the Gentiles. However, the calling of
the Gentiles into the Kingdom is always in connection with the Jewish
nationality. So presently the Gentiles enjoy the special favor of
grace during the Jewish nations dispersion, according to Paul (Rom
11:12, 15) the Gentiles shall realize even greater blessings when
God's Plan, in kindness and faithfulness, restores the Jewish Nation to
the Theocratic position. (cp. Isa 11:10-16, and chps 55, 60, 62).

There are several unsolveable problems for the sophisticate who would
have the Church, through spiritualizing, symbolizing or typification,
trasmute the promise of the Davidic throne and Kingdom (2 Sam 7: 10-16;
1 Chron 17:10-15; Ps 89:3, 4, 19-37) into something else such as "the
Father's throne," or Divine sovereignty or the "Kingdom of Grace" or
the "Gospel Dispensation," etc. for the simple reason that the
identical throne and Kingdom, now postponed, is the same one that is
promised to bhe Messiah to re-establish of Himself. (Amos 9:11; Acts
15:16; Zech 1: 16, 17; 2:12 etc.)

IF the Kingdom and the promises require or depend upon the reception or
rejection of truth by the Jewish nation, the HOW are God's promises to
be verified to the believing remnant of the Jewish nation and to that,
the ingrafted believing line? If the fulfilment is conditioned by the
disobedience of the unbelieving remnant, is the believing remnant to
the miss the promises of the Kingdom on account of the wickedness of
some? Are the promises given to David made nul and void simply because
ALL of Jacob's seed did not believe? Here is the abyss that the
opponents a literal Messianic (Millennial) Kingdom fear to face.
Matthew Johnson
2006-11-13 02:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
<<
Read it more closely. That is _moderate_ or _mitigated_ millenarianism
that was
condemned only in 1941. Other forms were condemned long ago.
When?
Why are you asking me instead of reading your own cited text more closely?

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-13 02:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
<<
Only Chiliasm has both history and the normative grammatical
interpretation of Scripture as a foundation and a verification.
The reformation used it against the Roman Catholic Church: the 'papism
' is over, here is the time for the thousand years glory.
Unfortunately it did not came.
What are the biblical references?
For. . . .? Chiliasm? That is nearly as involved as biblical
references as to the Tri-Unity of God. However, one specific verse is,
of course, found in the next to the last chapter in the bible.

Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is
the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be
released from his prison,

When one surveys the covenant promises and entertains the whole
teaching concerning the Kingdom, it is naturally concluded that the
Messianic and the Millennial Kingdoms are one and the same. It has
been, and can only be, denied by means of the allegorical interpretive.
Now no one in their right mind is overlooking the fact that allegorism
was not employed prior to the 1st Advent. However, it is a much
different thing to say that as to declaring that it was either common
or widely adopted. In fact, the most reknown if not indeed most of
Rabbincial schools period, did not accept such a methodology. Either
way, it does not vitiate the arguement which urges the period
preceeding the introduction of allegoristic interpretation that there
was no departure from the literal interpretation in relation to the
Kingdom. Evidences for this would include:

Quoting Peters, "Theocratic Kingdom," Vol. 1, prop 4, ftn 1:

1. By the united expectation of a literal kingdom, as admitted by all
(gospel) writers;
2. By the preaching of John the Baptist, the disiples and Jesus;
3. By the rejection of Jesus on the ground that a literal kingdom was
not established;


Though Jerome later abdicated his own theorum, it is a good one:

"The rule of Scripture is, where there is a manifest prediction of
future events, not to enfeeble that which is written by the uncertainty
of allegory." (Commenting on Mal 1:16)

Hilary in "De Trinitate," 1:

He is the best reader who rather expects to obtain sense from the words
than imposes it upon them and who carries more away than he has
brought, nor forces that upon the words which he had resolved to
understand before he began to read."

That which was introduced into the Church by the Alexandrian fathers,
was an abomination.
gilgames
2006-11-14 04:46:54 UTC
Permalink
***@hotmail.com
<<
The scriptural position of the early church (100-200AD) is clearly
documented insisting that the prophecies pertaining to the Jewish
nation, while conditional as to individuals, and to the nation for a
certain determined period of time, would finally be realized as
originally covenanted in the scriptures.
Ignatius of Antioch

http://lzkiss.net/cgi-bin/bible/fathers.pl?book=search&findtext=Ignatius%20of%20Antioch,0104.htm&findstr=kingdom#r1

Hence every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness
disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom up abolished,
God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal
life. And now that took a beginning which had been prepared by God.
Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated
the abolition of death.

Papias

http://lzkiss.net/cgi-bin/bible/fathers.pl?book=search&findtext=Papias,0125.htm&findstr=kingdom#r1

For in the times of the kingdomup the just man who is on the earth
shall forget to die. "But when He saith all things are put under Him,
it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also
Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God
may be all in all."

There is more. If you go to

http://lzkiss.net/cgi-bin/bible/fathers.pl?book=search

and type in Kingdom to the serch field and select a few Church Fathers
(not too many your server could time out) you may find more> The
Kingdom is Jesus Chrisy new Kingdom, the old is abolished.

laszlo
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-17 04:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
Hence every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness
disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom up abolished,
God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal
life. And now that took a beginning which had been prepared by God.
Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated
the abolition of death.
Let me gues, you did a search on "Kingdom" and then assumed that
any hit on the word actually applied to our context.

The Kingdom promises were never "abolished", old or "new". What
occurred, if you would but read in context Mt 13, was that at the
rejection of the Jewish leaders, the hidden age, the mystery plan
of God, was revealed, i.e. that the Gentiles would become sons
of Abraham through Christ. The "old" Kingdom is the "new" Kingdom
only there is now the further understanding of just how the Gentiles
were going to be included as even as far back as Moses, it was
prophecied.

You fail to exhibit a studied understanding of just what the Biblical
covenanted Kingdom of God is.
Post by gilgames
and type in Kingdom to the serch field and select a few Church Fathers
(not too many your server could time out) you may find more> The
Kingdom is Jesus Chrisy new Kingdom, the old is abolished.
I don't know of a single scholar who represents either the Kingdom
as you have discribed it, nor the disciples of the Apostles through
to early 3rd century as believing anything other than a literal
1000 yr Kingdom. In point of fact, it is the only Apostlic doctrine
which has been so thoroughly revisioned without even a "Thank
you very much."

You need to do better than this.
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-20 23:18:55 UTC
Permalink
An article on the Roman Catholic view concerning eschatological things:

http://www.conservativeonline.org/journals/07_21_journal/2003v7n21_id03.htm
gilgames
2006-11-22 03:41:24 UTC
Permalink
<<
Below is the final article on Catholic Theology and Dogma. Almost all
of the material quoted comes from books and articles approved by the
Catholic Church.

An article on the Roman Catholic view concerning eschatological things:

http://www.conservativeonline.org/journals/07_21_journal/2003v7n21_id03.htm
IMHO the Roman Catholic View would be the Tridentinum, Vaticanum I,
Vaticanum II, Cathechism of the Catholic Church

In the article, half of the quoted sources has imprimatur, but none of
them are original sources as above
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-23 03:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
<<
Below is the final article on Catholic Theology and Dogma. Almost all
of the material quoted comes from books and articles approved by the
Catholic Church.
http://www.conservativeonline.org/journals/07_21_journal/2003v7n21_id03.htm
IMHO the Roman Catholic View would be the Tridentinum, Vaticanum I,
Vaticanum II, Cathechism of the Catholic Church
In the article, half of the quoted sources has imprimatur, but none of
them are original sources as above
That may be so, but you have not invalidated their presentation. The
article accurately describes the RC position, does it not? And in
truth
the RC view is based upon and built up upon, Jerome's departure from
the historical, Apostolic and Apostolic fathers teachings. Again I
ask,
what other major doctrine, taught by the early church, has been so
utterly apostatized? The RCC and others who reject Millennialism,
even Pre-Millennialism, are apostates.
gilgames
2006-11-27 01:45:06 UTC
Permalink
<<
***@hotmail.com

That may be so, but you have not invalidated their presentation. The
article accurately describes the RC position, does it not?

Again I ask, what other major doctrine, taught by the early church,
has been so utterly apostatized?
.
The fact that it is undocumented is enough reason not to read it
carefully. If the write would care the of the truth, and not only
his/her truth he would take care of documentation, back to the
original sources.

I disagree that the Church Fathers were supporters of the
millennialism, my sort search proved negative answer. There are many
search able collection, prove it from original source, from the
writings of the Church Fathers.

laszlo
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-28 05:39:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
<<
I disagree that the Church Fathers were supporters of the
millennialism, my sort search proved negative answer. There are many
search able collection, prove it from original source, from the
writings of the Church Fathers.
Well you didn't do a very good job at researching to
historical record. But even beyond that, for the moment,
Christ and the NT writers all speak of a literal Kingdom
on earth. What you fail to immediately grasp is the
fact of the nature of the covenants promised to Israel.
In the NT, Galatians and Hebrews both presuppose
Post by gilgames
<<
I disagree that the Church Fathers were supporters of the
millennialism, my sort search proved negative answer. There are many
search able collection, prove it from original source, from the
writings of the Church Fathers.
Well you didn't do a very good job at researching to
historical record. But even beyond that, for the moment,
Christ and the NT writers all speak of a literal Kingdom
on earth. What you fail to immediately grasp is the
fact of the nature of the covenants promised to Israel.
In the NT, Galatians and Hebrews both presuppose
that the covenants have not been set aside or some
how taken over by the Church. In Galatians, Paul's
argument is that it is only by the Church's relationship
with Christ, does it get adopted into the promises.

I think you fail to recognize just what the Kingdom is
and to whom it was promised. The Kingdom is
JEWISH!!! It is given to an elect *nation*. Pasages
such as Deut 7:6; 14:2, Rom 11:28; 9:11 are
without equivocation that the Sovereignty of God
chose in the descendants of Abraham, the JEWs,
a people through whom should be mainfested His
Divine purpose and salvation. Salvation isn't only
about "getting out of jail" or escaping the wrath
of a Holy God, it is also about being adopted into
the Kingdom.

The Theocratic Kingdom is especially granted
to David and his descendants. It is identified as
the Davidic Kingdom from which the Messiah
will reign while sitting on the throne of David.
There is but one Kingdom and it is David's. The
Kingdom of Heaven," The Kingdom of God,"
"The Kingdom of Christ" and the Kingdom of
David are all one and the same. It is a
literal kingdom under the prescribes of the
covenants which are to be understood in a
literal manner even as the NT writers
ascribed it.

It is also of interest to note that the Jews
did not contest the Christian teachings
concerning the kingdom. Apostles themselves
in their writing, confirmed both the Messianic
nature of the Kingdom and its literal and
historic fulfillment yet to be granted.

John the Baptist preached a literal Kingdom and
Christ did not correct him but rather developed
the theme even further.
Post by gilgames
my sort search proved negative answer.
Read historians like Neander, who really wasn't
a millennialist in any imagination of the word yet
if forced to admit that the historical position of the
early disciples of the apostles and the early
church was completely, without exception,
millennial upto the time of the Alexandrian
introduction of the allegorical hermeneutic. But
the first 2 centuries after the death of Christ,
both the Church and the Jews taught and
wrote exclussively about a literal millennial
kingdom.

Gibbon's, a hard hearted agnostic at best,
and athiest at worst, maintains that Chiliasm
was universal doctrine of the early churches.
(Rise and fall, cp 15). There is no need for
me to detail all the historians, unbelievers,
opposers, critics, commentators who stand
with one voice stating that Chiliasm was the
article of belief in the early church.

Bonar in his "Prophetic Landmarks" states:
"As to the history of our doctrines, the
conclusions to which all inquires upon this
subject have come is that during the three
first centuries it prevailed universally, its
only opponents being the Gnostics. This is
now an ascetained historical fact, which we
may well ask our opponents to account for
as it presupposes that Chiliasm was an article
of the Apostolic Creed."

Chillingworth agrees that it was "held true
and Catholic," and that "by none of their
contemporaries condemned," "being
grounded upon evident Scripture," (Works,
Vol 3 p.369)

Giesler's "Church History" "In all the works of
this period (1st 2 centuries) Millenarianism is
so prominent, we cannot hesitate to consider
it as universal in an age when such sensuous
motives were certainly not unnecessary to
animate men to suffer for Christianity."

Benard Russell, "Discourse on the Millennium"
p. 236 writes: "There is good ground for the
assertion of Mede, Dodwell, Burnet and writers
on the same side, that down to the beginning
of the fourth century the belief (in Christ's return
and personal reign on earth for 1000 yrs) was
universal and undisputed."

Brook's, as mentioned in Peter's, "Theocratic
Kingdom," vol 1. p 451, lists the following
fathers having written about or around the
doctrine of the Millennium without contesting
it. In fact, nearly all have a line or two in
support of it.

Barnabas, Clement, Hermas, Ignatius,
Polycarp, Papieas, Justin Martyr, Tatian,
Melito, Irenaeus, Clemens Alexandrianus,
Tertullian, all ranging from 70-102AD.
Later fathers include, Lactantius, Methodius,
Epiphanius, Gregory of Myssa, Paulinus,
Victorinus, Apollinaris and others.

I think one of the lowest forms of attack
on this doctine is those of Eusebius and
Jerome, making out that Papias was ignorant
and illiterate, making weak statements
concerning his "Millenarian sentiments".
Strange to read this when else where
Eusebius writes of him that he is,
"eloquent and learned in the Scriptures"
on doctrines not counter to his.

The historical fact is that the
Millennialism was The universal
and literal hope of the early church.
gilgames
2006-11-29 01:55:38 UTC
Permalink
<<
What you fail to immediately grasp is the
fact of the nature of the covenants promised to Israel.
In the NT, Galatians and Hebrews both presuppose
that the covenants have not been set aside or somegilgames wrote:

The Kingdom is
JEWISH!!! It is given to an elect *nation*. Pasages
such as Deut 7:6; 14:2, Rom 11:28; 9:11 are
without equivocation that the Sovereignty of God
chose in the descendants of Abraham, the JEWs,
a people through whom should be mainfested His
Divine purpose and salvation.
The Kingdom was Israelite, and God exterminated 10 tribes out of
twelve as an example for the future, because they were unworthy stewards.

What you fail to recognize that the Nation was the bride/wife of God
as either the Prophets and St Paul clearly state, and you fail to
recognize that God is strictly MONOGAM. He exterminated everybody
before making a new Covenant with Noah; he scattered Noah's descendant
before making a new Covenant with Abraham and he required Abraham to
leave that land.

The Jews were beloved for their Fathers shake, they got time, a full
generation to repent.

Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every
tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and
cast into the fire.

In our wold nothing is absolute, we are partial and transitory,
passersby. The new Kingdom is for all descendants of Adam

God executed Deut 28 on the Jews in AD 70, word to word, a woman ate
her child.

Jesus' Kingdom is a new Kingdom with everyone:

"All the generations from Adam even to this day have passed away; but
those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love,
now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the
revelation of the kingdomup of Christ."

http://lzkiss.net/cgi-bin/bible/fathers.pl?book=search&findtext=Clement%20of%20Rome,1010.htm&findstr=kingdom#r2
r***@yahoo.co.uk
2006-12-01 03:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by gilgames
<<
I disagree that the Church Fathers were supporters of the
millennialism, my sort search proved negative answer. There are many
search able collection, prove it from original source, from the
writings of the Church Fathers.
Well you didn't do a very good job at researching to
historical record. ...
Read historians like Neander...
Gibbon's, a hard hearted agnostic at best,
and athiest at worst, ...
Benard Russell, ...
What a collection of "authorities" -- all people determined to attack
the church, and all living long ago!

Certainly some of the early fathers were chiliastic, but I hardly think
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Barnabas, Clement, Hermas, Ignatius,
Polycarp, Papieas, Justin Martyr, Tatian,
Melito, Irenaeus, Clemens Alexandrianus,
Tertullian, all ranging from 70-102AD.
Later fathers include, Lactantius, Methodius,
Epiphanius, Gregory of Myssa, Paulinus,
Victorinus, Apollinaris and others.
The historical fact is that the
Millennialism was The universal
and literal hope of the early church.
This you have not shown.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
l***@hotmail.com
2006-12-01 03:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by gilgames
<<
The Kingdom was Israelite,
was and always will be. This is even the Pauline assessment. It is
only
by being placed "in Christ" that the Gentile believer of the Church has
a
part of the inheritance.
Post by gilgames
and God exterminated 10 tribes out of
twelve as an example for the future, because they were unworthy stewards.
"exterminated?" Prove this! The unbelieving remnant always were
standing "outside the camp" or beyond inheritance. It is only the
believing remnent, of which the Scripture's declare God has always
kept,
which inherits the promises. Israel's election was national. When the
"nation" sinned and was chastized, the "common wrath" fell on the
believing remnant even as "common grace" fell on the unbelieving
remnant when the nation was largely in obedience. A perfect
illustration
of this was the calling out of Egypt. Most never made it into the
promised land because of unbelief. However, that did not nulify
either the promise nor the plan of God. Election took place prior
to the creation of the world therefore election does not depend upon
merit nor is it lost due to demerit.

Your presupposition works out to mean that if the majority of the
Church is in unbelief, all will be cast away! Do you not see the
logical outflow of your thesis?
Post by gilgames
What you fail to recognize that the Nation was the bride/wife of God
as either the Prophets and St Paul clearly state, and you fail to
recognize that God is strictly MONOGAM.
I've already posted a thread on this. Israel being called the "Wife of
God" in the OT has no resemblance to the Church being titled,
the "Bride of Christ in the NT. It is you who needs to study up
on the biblical distinctions, not me.
Post by gilgames
He exterminated everybody
before making a new Covenant with Noah; he scattered Noah's descendant
before making a new Covenant with Abraham and he required Abraham to
leave that land.
You are making this a thing of "works." The covenant made with Abraham

was "signed" by God while Abraham was asleep. It was God alone who
walked through the sacrifice and is therefore an unconditional
covenant. That
covenant has never been (and can never be) rescinded. This is
evidenced
by the fact that the Land/"Palestinian" covenant, the Davidic covenant
and the
New covenant are all amplifications of the original Abrahamic covenant.
By
amplifications, I do not mean amendments, but rather more fully
explained
or discribed. All the aspects or amplifications found in the latter
covenants
find their particular element in the Abrahamic covenant, which was made
specifically to Abraham and his PHYSICAL descendants. This does not
dismiss the fact that you also had to be a spiritual descendant. But
neither
does it overlook the fact that you have to be a Jew to share in the
covenantal promises. What Paul teaches is that we, "in Christ", become
inheriters by means of His descendance from the line of David.
Post by gilgames
The Jews were beloved for their Fathers shake, they got time, a full
generation to repent.
What is the point of the 7 sealed scroll of Rev 5? What is the
significance
of the "Lion" being from the tribe of Judah? What is the point that
there has
already taken place a "purchase?" Purchase of what? I'll answer you.

The scroll is a "land deed." John cries because there could be found
no one legally able to take it out of the Fathers *right* hand. Then
comes
forth the Lion of Judah. The purchase price of the "land" (Deut
30:1-10)
was paid by the *Kinsman-Redeemer." Only a heir within the exact
same tribe was able to redeem land forfeited.

Gen. 49:9-10 "Judah is a lion's whelp; From the prey, my son, you have
gone up. He couches, he lies down as a lion, And as a lion, who dares
rouse him up? The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's
staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be
the obedience of the peoples."

The point of the scroll is that the Kinsman-Redeemer, who had long
ago paid the purchase price for the forefeited land, now lays claim
to it. There are two aspects to this reclaimation. One is the legal
right. The scroll is written on both the outside and the inside. The
inside is sealed to protect it from any irregularities. A common
practice in the old world of protecting a title deed. The second
aspect is of course, having the power wherewith to actually take
possession of the land when the deed is illegally being contested.
With the breaking of each of the seals, Christ reveals that he is
the rightful owner. However, He never actually comes to take
possession of the land until when?

Zech. 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so
that they [Jews] will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will
mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep
bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.

THEN Christ returns. Where? Jerusalem. Where does He
then set up His kingdom throne? Jerusalem. And what is
again established? The sacrifices. Who are the priests?
Only the tribe of Levi has remained traceable after the ruin
of the temple in 70AD.

So "all Israel will be saved" when Christ returns. "All Israel,"
speaks of what it has always refered to -the believing remnant
which God has always kept for Himself.
Post by gilgames
Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every
tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and
cast into the fire.
Rom. 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive
tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree,
how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into
their own olive tree?

touche!
Post by gilgames
In our wold nothing is absolute, we are partial and transitory,
passersby. The new Kingdom is for all descendants of Adam
No it isn't. It wasn't even promised until Abraham came on the scene.
Post by gilgames
God executed Deut 28 on the Jews in AD 70, word to word, a woman ate
her child.
Sigh! Lamentations. Babylonian captivity. This also begs the
historical
reality of the "dry bones" being gathered back into the land. They are
"dry" because the nation is unbelieving. That gather must take place
prior to the advent of the Antichrist who, midway through Daniel's 70th
week, scatters them. It is then the believing remnant which is
gathered
at the end of the Tribulation to enter into the Millennial Kingdom,
i.e.
to inherit the promises of dynasty, land, heritage and kingdom. It is
to Jerusalem that all the nations of the world are required to make
a pilgrilmage to once a year.
No. He is the Kinsman-Redeemer who establishes the Theocratic
Kingdom which was God's original intent.
Post by gilgames
"All the generations from Adam even to this day have passed away; but
those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love,
now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the
revelation of the kingdomup of Christ."
So? Adam was originally set in Eden as the ruler of earth. When
he sinned, Satan became to rightful land owner. This is evidenced
by the fact that Christ did not deny his claim to ownership. However,
on the cross, Christ anounced, "It is finished," which was a cultural
term meaning, "It is paid in full." The purchase price required to
redeem the land has been paid. The Gentiles will inherit rulership
only through Christ but the believing Jewish remnant from Abraham
on through the Tribulation, will inherit the land between the two
great rivers.

Yes, you were saying?

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