Discussion:
The Bible
(too old to reply)
suneejan
2006-08-21 01:10:06 UTC
Permalink
The Bible is the word of God written for our instruction. You ask for
proof. The proof is that what God says in the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16
Col 3:16
One needs faith in God and the scriptures. Matthew 4:4
God says to meditate on the scriptures daily. Psalms 1:2-3
Once you and anyone is born again the sciptures will be clear and the
understanding will come! This is true because I see it happening to
the people who trust the lord and ask HIM in their hearts. This is not
my opinion but a true fact!
Rodney Dunning
2006-08-23 03:30:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
The Bible is the word of God written for our instruction. You ask for
proof. The proof is that what God says in the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16
Col 3:16
One needs faith in God and the scriptures. Matthew 4:4
God says to meditate on the scriptures daily. Psalms 1:2-3
Once you and anyone is born again the sciptures will be clear and the
understanding will come! This is true because I see it happening to
the people who trust the lord and ask HIM in their hearts. This is not
my opinion but a true fact!
Psalm 1:1-3 reads, "Happy are those who do not follow the advice of the
wicked, or take the path that sinners tread, or sit in the seat of
scoffers; but their delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law
they meditate day and night. They are like trees planted by streams of
water, which yield their fruit in its season, and their leaves do not
wither. In all that they do, they prosper." (NRSV)

These words do not promise "clear" scriptures to those who are born
again. Indeed, the concept of "born again" as we understand it in the
Church was unknown to the author.

If the meaning of the biblical text was clear to anyone who had faith
in God, then all those who have faith in God should be reporting a
consistent interpretation of the biblical text. Now, the total number
of Christians is about two billion. I think we can safely assume that
at least half are sincere in their faith, giving us about one billion
sincere Christians. Most of them have easy access to the Bible, and
those who speak up about its meaning often disagree. The posts to the
newsgroup illustrate this every day. Therefore, faith does not bring
clarity or understanding.

To understand the biblical text requires good reading skills and a
careful approach to the text that, among other things, gives proper
attention to the several types of literature present in the Bible.

--
Rodney Dunning
B.G. Kent
2006-08-24 00:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rodney Dunning
To understand the biblical text requires good reading skills and a
careful approach to the text that, among other things, gives proper
attention to the several types of literature present in the Bible.
--
Rodney Dunning
B- Yes I agree. I don't personally have anything against strong belief in
the Bible...a person taking it literally ..or any such thing...to each
his/her own. What I do have a problem with is one or more people trying to
tell us that these things "ARE" without being able to prove it. It seems
rather silly to have a subjective view and expect others to have it also
because of the strength of your convictions. Believe what you want...be as
literal or as metaphorical as you wish..but please don't go around saying
"it is" unless you are ready to prove it beyond saying "it is..because it
is".

People have a tendancy to think that because I ask for proof from
them...that I don't have a belief in the Bible or various other
assumptions. It is sad that they keep making that mistake.
All I am talking about is respect for others and their interps and their
connection to Christ.

Blessings
Bren
zach
2006-08-28 02:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
People have a tendancy to think that because I ask for proof from
them...that I don't have a belief in the Bible or various other
assumptions. It is sad that they keep making that mistake.
All I am talking about is respect for others and their interps and their
connection to Christ.
Rev. 3:16 (NIV) So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I
am about to spit you out of my mouth.
B.G. Kent
2006-08-29 03:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
Post by B.G. Kent
People have a tendancy to think that because I ask for proof from
them...that I don't have a belief in the Bible or various other
assumptions. It is sad that they keep making that mistake.
All I am talking about is respect for others and their interps and their
connection to Christ.
Rev. 3:16 (NIV) So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I
am about to spit you out of my mouth.
B - Wow....that was written about me? Gosh...my 15 minutes of
fame...finally here!
:)

Bren
Bob
2006-08-31 03:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
Rev. 3:16 (NIV) So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I
am about to spit you out of my mouth.
A typical out-of context quote suited to one's own purpose.
You didn't quote *why* he (she) was being spit out.
"-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. For you say, 'I am rich and
affluent and have no need of anything,..."

Did I miss Bren's post where she insinuated she was rich?

Bob
Alan Rixel
2006-09-05 01:23:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
The Bible is the word of God written for our instruction. You ask for
proof. The proof is that what God says in the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16
Col 3:16
One needs faith in God and the scriptures. Matthew 4:4
God says to meditate on the scriptures daily. Psalms 1:2-3
Once you and anyone is born again the sciptures will be clear and the
understanding will come! This is true because I see it happening to
the people who trust the lord and ask HIM in their hearts. This is not
my opinion but a true fact!
You are saying that the Bible is the word of god because that what's
written in it is the word of god? That's circular logic.
--
Alan Rixel <***@gmail.com>

"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows."
~Epictetus
shegeek72
2006-09-05 01:23:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rodney Dunning
To understand the biblical text requires good reading skills and a
careful approach to the text that, among other things, gives proper
attention to the several types of literature present in the Bible.
Agreed. Get 12 people together and ask them to visualize God and you'll
get many different visualizations. I, too, have encountered (as Bren
said) the circular logic of everything the Bible says is true because
it says it is. The Bible is a masterpiece that's source was fallible
humans and has been been written and translated, not from the original
texts, but from copies.

The problem is with those who have this circular logic firmly planted
in their minds and will not accept any other interpretation. Because of
this we have the "war on ______" [insert homosexuals / bisexuals /
transsexuals]. I maintain that without the literalists in various
religions, most notably Christian and Muslim, there would not be the
widespread opposition and persecution of gays and transgenders.

Religion is personal and each person's religion / spirituality is
individual and unique and formed by their culture, upbringing, life
experiences, etc. God does not only exist within the bottle of
Christianity.

Tara
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://users4.ev1.net/~taragem
B.G. Kent
2006-09-05 01:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by zach
Rev. 3:16 (NIV) So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I
am about to spit you out of my mouth.
A typical out-of context quote suited to one's own purpose.
You didn't quote *why* he (she) was being spit out.
"-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. For you say, 'I am rich and
affluent and have no need of anything,..."
Did I miss Bren's post where she insinuated she was rich?
Bob
B - Thankyou Bob. I'm rich with friends at least!
:)

Bren
l***@hotmail.com
2006-09-06 03:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
The problem is with those who have this circular logic firmly planted
in their minds and will not accept any other interpretation. Because of
this we have the "war on ______" [insert homosexuals / bisexuals /
transsexuals]. I maintain that without the literalists in various
religions, most notably Christian and Muslim, there would not be the
widespread opposition and persecution of gays and transgenders.
You don't get out much, do you? I work in a very unchristian
environment. It is blue collar, union and decidedly liberal Democrat.
You should hear what they think of gays and transgenders! Nothing
Christian about their conclusions. Point of fact, Christianity has the
proper view. If it were left up to the "world," they'd hunt you for
sport. It is Christianity which tempers this view. Yes, Biblical
Christianity stands opposed to such life styles but we are only the
messengers. God has clearly revealed what He thinks of it. "Gay" is
not the reality from my involvement with the community. Anything but.
There's no getting around it other than some revisionist concoction,
Christianity is opposed to your lifestyle (esp. your agenda to spread
its lie). However, we do not "persecute" you. We stand against the
lifestyle. I fear once the Church is taken out of the world, you will
then truly experience persecution. The Bible is clear. You stand
under the wrath of God for whitewashing His revealed Word on the
subject.
suneejan
2006-09-06 03:03:47 UTC
Permalink
God is not religious! God is present everywhere! One needs Christ in
their heart for eternal life. It is a personnalrelationship with Jesus
that is important not how the worship is .
Post by shegeek72
Post by Rodney Dunning
To understand the biblical text requires good reading skills and a
careful approach to the text that, among other things, gives proper
attention to the several types of literature present in the Bible.
Agreed. Get 12 people together and ask them to visualize God and you'll
get many different visualizations. I, too, have encountered (as Bren
said) the circular logic of everything the Bible says is true because
it says it is. The Bible is a masterpiece that's source was fallible
humans and has been been written and translated, not from the original
texts, but from copies.
...
suneejan
2006-09-06 03:03:47 UTC
Permalink
I have faith in God, Jesus and the Bible. What is written in theBible
is true. Just look at the book of proverbs, the sayings in that book
is true.

What do you base your life on. Whar happens when you die? I know when
I die I will go to heaven and have eternal life ...John 3:16 and 1 John
5:11-13.
Post by Alan Rixel
Post by suneejan
The Bible is the word of God written for our instruction. You ask for
proof. The proof is that what God says in the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16
Col 3:16
..
Post by Alan Rixel
You are saying that the Bible is the word of god because that what's
written in it is the word of god? That's circular logic.
Matthew Johnson
2006-09-07 02:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Rodney Dunning
To understand the biblical text requires good reading skills and a
careful approach to the text that, among other things, gives proper
attention to the several types of literature present in the Bible.
Agreed.
You say 'agreed', yet your own discussion of it shows you refuse to do
this yourself.
Post by shegeek72
Get 12 people together and ask them to visualize God and you'll get
many different visualizations.
But this is _quite_ irrelevant. And the belief that it could be
relevant shows a serious failure to understand even the ten
commandments. There is a _reason_ they are told to have no 'graven'
images.
Post by shegeek72
I, too, have encountered (as Bren said) the circular logic of
everything the Bible says is true because it says it is.
The explanations commonly given of why to believe everything the Bible
says is true are somewhat deficient, but it is NOT accurate to call
this "circular logic".
Post by shegeek72
The Bible is a masterpiece that's source was fallible humans and has
been been written and translated, not from the original texts, but
from copies.
This is a bizarre combination of lip service with severe
misunderstanding. The lip-service is when you admit that it is a
'masterpiece'.

After all, how can you _really_ consider it a 'masterpiece' when you
despise and disregard so much of what it says?
Post by shegeek72
The problem is with those who have this circular logic firmly planted
in their minds and will not accept any other interpretation. Because of
this we have the "war on ______" [insert homosexuals / bisexuals /
transsexuals]. I maintain that without the literalists in various
religions, most notably Christian and Muslim, there would not be the
widespread opposition and persecution of gays and transgenders.
We know you 'assert' this. But this is just another example of your
own ignorance. Do you believe Pope Benedict XVI is a 'literalist'?
Trust me, he is not. Yet he is every bit as much opposed to all your
perversions as any literalist, the only difference being that he will
not violate other commandmentss of God's law in order to wage a 'war'
against you.

The reason there is so much "widespread opposition and persecution" of
people who practice your perversions is because your perversions
arouse disgust in so many. And they arouse disgust because they really
are so very evil.

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2006-09-07 02:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You don't get out much, do you? I work in a very unchristian
environment. It is blue collar,
B - "Blue collar" is unchristian?

union and decidedly liberal Democrat.

"union and liberal democrat" are unchristians?

YOu don't get out much Isender!
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You should hear what they think of gays and transgenders! Nothing
Christian about their conclusions. Point of fact, Christianity has the
proper view. If it were left up to the "world," they'd hunt you for
sport. It is Christianity which tempers this view. Yes, Biblical
B - Poppycock. People who wrote various parts of the Bible and your own
interp were/are against homosexuals and you are using that to back your
bigotry
and hate from what I can see. You see no love in other faiths...no love in
humanity but that
of a book-religion inforced kind. This is sad. I would care and love for
all persons..even if I had never heard of God in an outer way. God? wrath?
bigotry and hatred? I don't believe that any of these words go together. I
don't believe that God is anything but love.


I'm a Christian.

I.M.O
Blessings
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-07 02:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
I have faith in God, Jesus and the Bible.
B - This is good to know for me.

What is written in theBible
Post by suneejan
is true
B - Okay..now that line needs proof.

. Just look at the book of proverbs, the sayings in that book
Post by suneejan
is true.
B - again...more proof needed .


B _ I also believe I will go to heaven and have eternal life.

Blessings
Bren
shegeek72
2006-09-07 02:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You don't get out much, do you? I work in a very unchristian
environment. It is blue collar, union and decidedly liberal Democrat.
You should hear what they think of gays and transgenders! Nothing
Christian about their conclusions.
There are bigots everywhere. I'm not saying that Christians are the
only one's. But I stand by my contention that literal biblical
teachings (that are misinterpreted) are responsible for a good portion
of the discrimination (ala anti-gay marriage statutes, anti-transgender
policies) and violence against gays and transgenders. I've already
pointed out that preventing gay marriage hurts children.

Let's look at this example: Christian parents, who think homosexuality,
or being transgender, is a "sin," wrong, etc. teach that to their
children. They are also taught violence is wrong. However, these
parents have a son who, for whatever reason, has violent tendencies.
Even though he tries to keep them under control, he still gets into
fights, physically hurts other kids, etc. He finds out he has a gay
schoolmate and due to his violent tendencies AND his parent's teachings
one day decides to take matters into his own hands and beats up the gay
kid. Without his anti-gay upbringing the gay schoolmate would've been a
lot less likely target of his violent tendencies.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Point of fact, Christianity has the proper view.
This is not fact - it's subjective opinion, a belief system. There's no
way anyone can prove this is "fact."
Post by l***@hotmail.com
There's no getting around it other than some revisionist concoction,
Christianity is opposed to your lifestyle (esp. your agenda to spread
its lie).
That being gay or transgender is a "lifestyle" is a misnomer, unless
one also considers being heterosexual is a lifestyle. Being transgender
myself, and knowing dozens of trans people, I can say for certainty
that being transsexual is not a "lifestyle;" as if I woke up one
morning and decided, "hmm, I wonder what living as a transsexual would
be like?" It's a biological condition that's treated with hormones,
therapy and surgery and has nothing to do with a lifestyle.

Do you, or anyone, think I'd choose a "lifestyle" that can subject me
to taunts, ridicule, discrimination, violence, even murder? Anyone with
a reasonable amount of intelligence would think not.

As for my "agenda," you seem to imply that I want to put boys in
dresses and thereby introduce them to the so-called "transgender
lifestyle." Nothing could be further from the truth. If you read my
websites you'll find I offer information, support and sources of
services, for people who are, or may think they are, transgender. I
have no other "agenda" besides disseminating information and help.

Tara
--
Tara Foundation
http://tarafoundation.org

Tara's Transgender Resources
http://users4.ev1.net/~taragem
Matthew Johnson
2006-09-07 03:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by Rodney Dunning
To understand the biblical text requires good reading skills and a
careful approach to the text that, among other things, gives proper
attention to the several types of literature present in the Bible.
Agreed.
You say 'agreed', yet your own discussion of it shows you refuse to do
this yourself.
Post by shegeek72
Get 12 people together and ask them to visualize God and you'll get
many different visualizations.
But this is _quite_ irrelevant. And the belief that it could be
relevant shows a serious failure to understand even the ten
commandments. There is a _reason_ they are told to have no 'graven'
images.
Post by shegeek72
I, too, have encountered (as Bren said) the circular logic of
everything the Bible says is true because it says it is.
The explanations commonly given of why to believe everything the Bible
says is true are somewhat deficient, but it is NOT accurate to call
this "circular logic".
Post by shegeek72
The Bible is a masterpiece that's source was fallible humans and has
been been written and translated, not from the original texts, but
from copies.
This is a bizarre combination of lip service with severe
misunderstanding. The lip-service is when you admit that it is a
'masterpiece'.

After all, how can you _really_ consider it a 'masterpiece' when you
despise and disregard so much of what it says?
Post by shegeek72
The problem is with those who have this circular logic firmly planted
in their minds and will not accept any other interpretation. Because of
this we have the "war on ______" [insert homosexuals / bisexuals /
transsexuals]. I maintain that without the literalists in various
religions, most notably Christian and Muslim, there would not be the
widespread opposition and persecution of gays and transgenders.
We know you 'assert' this. But this is just another example of your
own ignorance. Do you believe Pope Benedict XVI is a 'literalist'?
Trust me, he is not. Yet he is every bit as much opposed to all your
perversions as any literalist, the only difference being that he will
not violate other commandmentss of God's law in order to wage a 'war'
against you.

The reason there is so much "widespread opposition and persecution" of
people who practice your perversions is because your perversions
arouse disgust in so many. And they arouse disgust because they really
are so very evil.

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2006-09-07 03:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You don't get out much, do you? I work in a very unchristian
environment. It is blue collar,
B - "Blue collar" is unchristian?

union and decidedly liberal Democrat.

"union and liberal democrat" are unchristians?

YOu don't get out much Isender!
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You should hear what they think of gays and transgenders! Nothing
Christian about their conclusions. Point of fact, Christianity has the
proper view. If it were left up to the "world," they'd hunt you for
sport. It is Christianity which tempers this view. Yes, Biblical
B - Poppycock. People who wrote various parts of the Bible and your own
interp were/are against homosexuals and you are using that to back your
bigotry
and hate from what I can see. You see no love in other faiths...no love in
humanity but that
of a book-religion inforced kind. This is sad. I would care and love for
all persons..even if I had never heard of God in an outer way. God? wrath?
bigotry and hatred? I don't believe that any of these words go together. I
don't believe that God is anything but love.


I'm a Christian.

I.M.O
Blessings
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-07 03:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
I have faith in God, Jesus and the Bible.
B - This is good to know for me.

What is written in theBible
Post by suneejan
is true
B - Okay..now that line needs proof.

. Just look at the book of proverbs, the sayings in that book
Post by suneejan
is true.
B - again...more proof needed .


B _ I also believe I will go to heaven and have eternal life.

Blessings
Bren
shegeek72
2006-09-07 03:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You don't get out much, do you? I work in a very unchristian
environment. It is blue collar, union and decidedly liberal Democrat.
You should hear what they think of gays and transgenders! Nothing
Christian about their conclusions.
There are bigots everywhere. I'm not saying that Christians are the
only one's. But I stand by my contention that literal biblical
teachings (that are misinterpreted) are responsible for a good portion
of the discrimination (ala anti-gay marriage statutes, anti-transgender
policies) and violence against gays and transgenders. I've already
pointed out that preventing gay marriage hurts children.

Let's look at this example: Christian parents, who think homosexuality,
or being transgender, is a "sin," wrong, etc. teach that to their
children. They are also taught violence is wrong. However, these
parents have a son who, for whatever reason, has violent tendencies.
Even though he tries to keep them under control, he still gets into
fights, physically hurts other kids, etc. He finds out he has a gay
schoolmate and due to his violent tendencies AND his parent's teachings
one day decides to take matters into his own hands and beats up the gay
kid. Without his anti-gay upbringing the gay schoolmate would've been a
lot less likely target of his violent tendencies.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Point of fact, Christianity has the proper view.
This is not fact - it's subjective opinion, a belief system. There's no
way anyone can prove this is "fact."
Post by l***@hotmail.com
There's no getting around it other than some revisionist concoction,
Christianity is opposed to your lifestyle (esp. your agenda to spread
its lie).
That being gay or transgender is a "lifestyle" is a misnomer, unless
one also considers being heterosexual is a lifestyle. Being transgender
myself, and knowing dozens of trans people, I can say for certainty
that being transsexual is not a "lifestyle;" as if I woke up one
morning and decided, "hmm, I wonder what living as a transsexual would
be like?" It's a biological condition that's treated with hormones,
therapy and surgery and has nothing to do with a lifestyle.

Do you, or anyone, think I'd choose a "lifestyle" that can subject me
to taunts, ridicule, discrimination, violence, even murder? Anyone with
a reasonable amount of intelligence would think not.

As for my "agenda," you seem to imply that I want to put boys in
dresses and thereby introduce them to the so-called "transgender
lifestyle." Nothing could be further from the truth. If you read my
websites you'll find I offer information, support and sources of
services, for people who are, or may think they are, transgender. I
have no other "agenda" besides disseminating information and help.

Tara
--
Tara Foundation
http://tarafoundation.org

Tara's Transgender Resources
http://users4.ev1.net/~taragem
c***@gmail.com
2006-09-09 05:44:46 UTC
Permalink
"Christianity stands opposed to such life styles but we are only the
messengers. God has clearly revealed what He thinks of it. "

I suppose God hates people in third world countries for being poor,
starving and helpless. In fact, their fate is even worse than our
first world homosexuals!

***@hotmail.com wrote:
...
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You don't get out much, do you? I work in a very unchristian
environment. It is blue collar, union and decidedly liberal Democrat.
You should hear what they think of gays and transgenders! Nothing
Christian about their conclusions. Point of fact, Christianity has the
proper view. If it were left up to the "world," they'd hunt you for
sport. It is Christianity which tempers this view. Yes, Biblical
Christianity stands opposed to such life styles but we are only the
messengers. God has clearly revealed what He thinks of it. "Gay" is
not the reality from my involvement with the community. Anything but.
There's no getting around it other than some revisionist concoction,
Christianity is opposed to your lifestyle (esp. your agenda to spread
its lie). However, we do not "persecute" you. We stand against the
lifestyle. I fear once the Church is taken out of the world, you will
then truly experience persecution. The Bible is clear. You stand
under the wrath of God for whitewashing His revealed Word on the
subject.
suneejan
2006-09-09 05:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Look at ! John 5:11-13 for prof of going to heaven if you have Christ
in your heart. It is not a matter of proof but faith in God, Jesus and
the bible.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
I have faith in God, Jesus and the Bible.
B - This is good to know for me.
What is written in theBible
Post by suneejan
is true
B - Okay..now that line needs proof.
. Just look at the book of proverbs, the sayings in that book
Post by suneejan
is true.
B - again...more proof needed .
B _ I also believe I will go to heaven and have eternal life.
r***@yahoo.com
2006-09-09 05:44:48 UTC
Permalink
God? wrath? bigotry and hatred?
I don't believe that any of these words go together.
I don't believe that God is anything but love.
does God love sin? does God love rape? does God love murder? does God
love injustice?

there's a little problem with saying that God is nothing but love.
If you love your kids, then you hate what will destroy them.

dave
Matthew Johnson
2006-09-09 05:44:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You don't get out much, do you? I work in a very unchristian
environment. It is blue collar,
B - "Blue collar" is unchristian?
union and decidedly liberal Democrat.
"union and liberal democrat" are unchristians?
Loren did not actually say that.
Post by B.G. Kent
YOu don't get out much Isender!
That may be true, but he shows better reading skills in this thread than you do.
He did NOT say that "union and liberal democrat" are unchristian.

It is strange, but nevertheless possible, for the environment to be unchristian
because of the "union and liberal democrat" influence, w/o the _people_ who are
union and liberal democrat necessarily being unchristian.

I am not even going to try to explain this paradoxical possibility, other than
just to say that yes, it is possible, because the tendency of the Left in the
Democratic party has been anti-christian, even though not all liberal Democrats
are themselves anti-christian.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by l***@hotmail.com
You should hear what they think of gays and transgenders! Nothing
Christian about their conclusions. Point of fact, Christianity has the
proper view. If it were left up to the "world," they'd hunt you for
sport. It is Christianity which tempers this view. Yes, Biblical
B - Poppycock.
No, it isn't 'poppycock'. Much as it may surprise him to hear me say it, Loren
is quite right here: Christianity _does_ temper the view, and has been doing it
for centuries.
Post by B.G. Kent
People who wrote various parts of the Bible and your own
interp were/are against homosexuals
That they were, and for very good reason.
Post by B.G. Kent
and you are using that to back your
bigotry
Being "against homosexuals" is not bigotry. Just like being against corrupt
politicians is not bigotry.
Post by B.G. Kent
and hate from what I can see.
All that means is that you cannot see very far.
Post by B.G. Kent
You see no love in other faiths...no love in
humanity but that
of a book-religion inforced kind. This is sad. I would care and love for
all persons..
You love to gush sentiments like that, but where is the love in your response to
Loren? I don't see any. I'll wait for him to answer concerning whether or not he
says any. Don't hold your breath waiting for anyone to agree with you that you
"care and love for all persons".

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2006-09-11 01:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
God? wrath? bigotry and hatred?
I don't believe that any of these words go together.
I don't believe that God is anything but love.
does God love sin? does God love rape? does God love murder? does God
love injustice?
B - so you believe that because human beings act on these things in a
certain way..that God must?
Post by r***@yahoo.com
there's a little problem with saying that God is nothing but love.
If you love your kids, then you hate what will destroy them.
B - you're anthropomorphizing God with ego.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
dave
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-11 01:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Look at ! John 5:11-13 for prof of going to heaven if you have Christ
in your heart. It is not a matter of proof but faith in God, Jesus and
the bible.
B - you don't get it do you? You can't force a way of thinking on other
people. Let us all find God in our own way and have respect for all
interpretations that harm none. Speak from your experience...but stop
talking for all Christians. Have some respect please.

Blessings
Bren (who HAS faith in God,Christ and the Bible already)
suneejan
2006-09-12 00:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Why do you have such a problem when the Holy Bible is quoted?
I try to tell people what the bible says on certain matters like
salvation, halloween,adultry,etc. If you have trouble with what I
quote , talk to God about it. I'm just qouting what HE wrote in the
scriptures.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
Look at ! John 5:11-13 for prof of going to heaven if you have Christ
in your heart. It is not a matter of proof but faith in God, Jesus and
the bible.
B - you don't get it do you? You can't force a way of thinking on other
people. Let us all find God in our own way and have respect for all
interpretations that harm none. Speak from your experience...but stop
talking for all Christians. Have some respect please.
Blessings
Bren (who HAS faith in God,Christ and the Bible already)
B.G. Kent
2006-09-13 02:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Why do you have such a problem when the Holy Bible is quoted?
I try to tell people what the bible says on certain matters like
salvation, halloween,adultry,etc. If you have trouble with what I
quote , talk to God about it. I'm just qouting what HE wrote in the
scriptures.
B - I have no problem with the Bible being quoted. I have a problem with
you saying "it is" when you cannot prove it...they are two different
things. I will talk to YOU about it as long as you keep saying "it is" and
not "in my opinion..or what I think it is" in regards to things you cannot
prove. As for the last line..you are just quoting what you "think" was God
writing in the scriptures.

Bren
Bob
2006-09-18 01:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
B - you don't get it do you? You can't force a way of thinking on other
people. Let us all find God in our own way and have respect for all
interpretations that harm none. Speak from your experience...but stop
talking for all Christians. Have some respect please.
Blessings
Bren (who HAS faith in God,Christ and the Bible already)
I attended a church in a different city this past weekend and heard a
sermon I thought I'd never hear from a christian preacher. In addition
to his normal pastoral duties, he is a chaplain at a major hospital.
His sermon dealt with people in different stages of fatal diseases, how
they prayed to their various religious interpretations of God, and the
effect those prayers had on the patients. He stated that he has come
to the conclusion that no matter what religion we belong to, we all
pray to the same God. This is because the results of serious prayer
for these people is constant among all religions, whereas different
Gods would show different results. He personally thought Christianity
was a more true path to God, but would not say others did not have a
path also.
This has been my belief for years and I felt elated to hear a preacher
share that thought.

Bob S.
zach
2006-09-18 01:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
Why do you have such a problem when the Holy Bible is quoted?
I try to tell people what the bible says on certain matters like
salvation, halloween,adultry,etc. If you have trouble with what I
quote , talk to God about it. I'm just qouting what HE wrote in the
scriptures.
B - I have no problem with the Bible being quoted. I have a problem with
you saying "it is" when you cannot prove it...they are two different
things. I will talk to YOU about it as long as you keep saying "it is" and
not "in my opinion..or what I think it is" in regards to things you cannot
prove. As for the last line..you are just quoting what you "think" was God
writing in the scriptures.
You can feel free from voicing your criticisms, then, in those
conversations between people who do consider The Bible to be the Word
of God. Whether those who believe it is "inerrant", those who have a
more liberal view of the scriptures, or those who believe in a mixture
of scriptural and the authority of Tradition, the rubric is still that
The Bible is God's revelation to humankind. That seems to be the view
99% of people here who call themselves "Christian". For everything
else, continue as you were, by all means.
B.G. Kent
2006-09-19 00:05:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, zach wrote:

...>
Post by zach
You can feel free from voicing your criticisms, then, in those
conversations between people who do consider The Bible to be the Word
of God. Whether those who believe it is "inerrant", those who have a
more liberal view of the scriptures, or those who believe in a mixture
of scriptural and the authority of Tradition, the rubric is still that
The Bible is God's revelation to humankind. That seems to be the view
99% of people here who call themselves "Christian". For everything
else, continue as you were, by all means.
B - 99% here? or 99% who post?
Oh...I've always intended on continued posting....by all means..you do
too.

Blessings
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-19 00:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
to the conclusion that no matter what religion we belong to, we all
pray to the same God. This is because the results of serious prayer
for these people is constant among all religions, whereas different
Gods would show different results. He personally thought Christianity
was a more true path to God, but would not say others did not have a
path also.
This has been my belief for years and I felt elated to hear a preacher
share that thought.
Bob S.
B - that's great Bob. I think of God as always the same substance and that
everyone in the world pastes the face on this substance as how they think
it must be. To a woman...it may be a woman...to a man...a man....etc.

Blessings,
Bren
suneejan
2006-09-19 00:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Jesus was not religious. Jesus does not care what church we belong to.
Whar HE cares about is if we humans follow God and have Jesus in our
hearts. There are a lot of religions that follow Christ and thosewho
do not follow Christ.

Bob wrote:
...
Post by Bob
I attended a church in a different city this past weekend and heard a
sermon I thought I'd never hear from a christian preacher. In addition
to his normal pastoral duties, he is a chaplain at a major hospital.
His sermon dealt with people in different stages of fatal diseases, how
they prayed to their various religious interpretations of God, and the
effect those prayers had on the patients. He stated that he has come
to the conclusion that no matter what religion we belong to, we all
pray to the same God. This is because the results of serious prayer
for these people is constant among all religions, whereas different
Gods would show different results. He personally thought Christianity
was a more true path to God, but would not say others did not have a
path also.
This has been my belief for years and I felt elated to hear a preacher
share that thought.
Bob S.
r***@yahoo.com
2006-09-20 05:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
I don't believe that God is anything but love.
does God love sin? does God love rape? does God love murder? does God
love injustice?
B - so you believe that because human beings act on these things in a
certain way..that God must?
But lets just assume that the word "love" means something to us as
humans.

If you say "God is only love", then based on what the word means
"to us", we have an understanding of what you said.
Now YOU made the statement that God is NOT bigotry or hatred and you
did that on the strength of some reasoning that [in your opinion.....]
God is love. You anthropomorphized God and reasoned that IF he was
love, then he couldn't be a bigot or hate, because YOU don't think
that love should be bigoted or hate.

But if 'God is love' and that somehow precludes him being a bigot
or hating, then I think you have a nearly absurd statement. And here is
why:

If God is only love, and he can't hate, then what does he think about
hate? Does he love hate?
God can't love hate if he is all love, and yet if there is something
he doesn't love, then he isn't all love.

Now you can try the obfuscation angle by playing on some unknown
definition of love, or claim that I am just anthropomorphizing God, but
the only way your statement that 'God is love' is intelligible to
me at all is based on how I as a human understand love. You yourself
did the same thing when you claimed that love was not hate. Now perhaps
you think that since God is only love, that he actually does love rape
and murder and injustice, and gods love is somehow different than what
we understand.

But I think you are smart enough to understand where I'm going with
this and you don't want to own up to it.
As for my original questions, I'll stick with them and the point I
had.
God can't possible be all love, since love also means that he has to
hate whatever contradicts love.
If there is some other way you can explain yourself than please do.

Now do you understand the charge here? I'm not asking you to prove
that God actually is however you believe him to be, I'm saying he
can't possibly be what you are saying because it is absurd. It
inherently contradicts itself.
B.G. Kent
2006-09-20 05:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Jesus was not religious. Jesus does not care what church we belong to.
Whar HE cares about is if we humans follow God and have Jesus in our
hearts. There are a lot of religions that follow Christ and thosewho
do not follow Christ.
B - I agree with your opinion....and it is...opinion. I have not seen or
read up on one religion that does not follow Christ though. Ofcourse we
have different ideas on what Christ is.

Blessings
Bren
suneejan
2006-09-21 03:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Jesus Christ is the son of God who came to this earth. John 3:16. His
teachings are in the scriptures.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
Jesus was not religious. Jesus does not care what church we belong to.
Whar HE cares about is if we humans follow God and have Jesus in our
hearts. There are a lot of religions that follow Christ and thosewho
do not follow Christ.
B - I agree with your opinion....and it is...opinion. I have not seen or
read up on one religion that does not follow Christ though. Ofcourse we
have different ideas on what Christ is.
Blessings
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-21 03:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Now do you understand the charge here? I'm not asking you to prove
that God actually is however you believe him to be, I'm saying he
can't possibly be what you are saying because it is absurd. It
inherently contradicts itself.
B - Okay. :) everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Blessings
Bren
Chellie
2006-09-25 04:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Now do you understand the charge here? I'm not asking you to prove
that God actually is however you believe him to be, I'm saying he
can't possibly be what you are saying because it is absurd. It
inherently contradicts itself.
B - Okay. :) everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Blessings
Bren
What? That Jesus Christ is God? This is true. Read John 20:27-28,
Matthew 27:54, I John 5:7, Isaiah 44:24, Matthew 27:54, Isaiah 44:8,
Revelations 1:8.
r***@yahoo.com
2006-09-25 04:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Now do you understand the charge here? I'm not asking you to prove
that God actually is however you believe him to be, I'm saying he
can't possibly be what you are saying because it is absurd. It
inherently contradicts itself.
B - Okay. :) everyone is entitled to their opinions.
It's a little more than just an opinion.
I don't know why I am surprised by this response. I suppose I take
for granted that most people will at least be searching for truth.
Sometimes misguided, sometimes on hiatus, but basically they want to
believe the truth.

This response seems to indicate otherwise. Everything is just opinion.
Proof has been requested on many occasions when people have made claims
to truth.
You have stated many times that you have a real problem with people
saying something is truth, and not being able to back it up.

So you made a statement that is false. I proved it. And now your
response is to bury your head in the sand and claim that everyone is
entitled to their opinions.

I suppose this is true.... you are entitled to hold to false ideas. It
just makes it all the more silly when you request proof from others to
back up their statements.

Anyway, the important thing of all this is:
God can't possibly be ONLY love even if He is a loving God.
He will hate the things that are contrary to love. This is exactly the
scenario the bible explains.
Simplest terms: the Bible is right about this aspect of God, Bren is
wrong. ; )

Some people though, whose egos have really gotten out of hand, take
statements in the bible such as: "God is love", and thinking
themselves far superior to the bible, decide to take it further and say
that God is ALL love, and never hate. In their own minds they have
superseded God. They considered themselves far more advanced than the
bible and much more up to date and modern. It's just when that when
such statements are broken down, they are shown to be inane. Their
thinking has been twisted by their own ego. Romans 1 states: although
they claimed to wise, they became as fools. It also says: they
exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created
things, rather than the creator.

They have chosen to create for themselves a mental construct of God.
They have picked and chosen the aspects they would want to see, and
discarded the others. They haven't made an idol of wood or stone, but
they made an idol just the same. Bren's idol is a false god. It
doesn't exist except in bren's mind. That's a problem with
deviating from the bible, people end up making false gods. Things not
based in reality.

If you want to know God and follow Him, then follow the bible, believe
the bible, trust the bible.
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE come to the
father, EXCEPT by me"

No one gets to the father by following some made up "inner Christ".
I demonstrated what kind of nonsense that leads to. One can only get to
God through Jesus. And we only know about Jesus through the Bible.
B.G. Kent
2006-09-26 00:40:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chellie
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Okay. :) everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Blessings
Bren
What? That Jesus Christ is God? This is true. Read John 20:27-28,
Matthew 27:54, I John 5:7, Isaiah 44:24, Matthew 27:54, Isaiah 44:8,
Revelations 1:8.
B - I've read the bible my friend and continue to. I also read the Nag
Hammadi and many other spiritual texts. Please don't talk for all of us
here. If you say "This is true" then it is up to you to give hard evidence
when asked...if not..then addend your messages with "in my opinion" or "I
feel". You believe the Bible is God speaking literally...not all here do
and we all consider ourselves Christians (the majority here that is). Have
respect for others please.


Blessings
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-26 00:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Now do you understand the charge here? I'm not asking you to prove
that God actually is however you believe him to be, I'm saying he
can't possibly be what you are saying because it is absurd. It
inherently contradicts itself.
B - Okay. :) everyone is entitled to their opinions.
It's a little more than just an opinion.
B - you'd have to prove that.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
I don't know why I am surprised by this response. I suppose I take
for granted that most people will at least be searching for truth.
Sometimes misguided, sometimes on hiatus, but basically they want to
believe the truth.
B - I am constantly...I just don't believe that I have to argue with
everyone. My ego does not need to be right as much anymore...I am working
on giving up that need.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
This response seems to indicate otherwise. Everything is just opinion.
B - Well no...I do believe that there is some Objective truth...but then
my saying that is subjective...there is an "I" involved. To me...it
becomes objective when it is proven to all of us...all of us and that is
one tall order.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Proof has been requested on many occasions when people have made claims
to truth.
You have stated many times that you have a real problem with people
saying something is truth, and not being able to back it up.
B - Yes I have...I don't like everyone talking for me.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
So you made a statement that is false. I proved it. And now your
response is to bury your head in the sand and claim that everyone is
entitled to their opinions.
B - You proved nothing. It was your opinion that what I said was fault due
to the way you understood it...it was totally subjective. I've yet to meet
one human being that is totally one thing. I say that I "believe" (note a
subjective response) that God is love. You say God is more than love. I
said that could be anthropomorphizing God..and you say I am doing that too
with what I said..therby making me hypocritical in a sense. To me...I
cannot be anthropomorphizing God when I say that God is love...because I
have yet to meet one human being who is just love.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
I suppose this is true.... you are entitled to hold to false ideas. It
just makes it all the more silly when you request proof from others to
back up their statements.
B - Not at all. I always state a belief in...or an opinion of. I don't
state things as fact thereby steamrolling over everyone elses belief. If
someone is going to make statements of fact about God...I will ask them to
prove. When and if I ever make statements of fact for others..you can ask
me to prove that too. I don't mind at all...serves me right if I am that
disrespectful to others.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
God can't possibly be ONLY love even if He is a loving God.
He will hate the things that are contrary to love. This is exactly the
scenario the bible explains.
Simplest terms: the Bible is right about this aspect of God, Bren is
wrong. ; )
B - What if all but love is illusion. I know....it all seems real...people
get hurt...people die...etc. but what if? What if we believe in the
illusion so much we believe in its manifestation as well? You have your
beliefs..I have mine. And oh..by the way? red herring here...I am not and
have never talked against the Bible...I simply don't believe that all of
it is of God.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Some people though, whose egos have really gotten out of hand, take
statements in the bible such as: "God is love", and thinking
themselves far superior to the bible, decide to take it further and say
that God is ALL love, and never hate. In their own minds they have
superseded God. They considered themselves far more advanced than the
bible and much more up to date and modern.
B - Amazing that you think that way..it just floors me. Ego? and there is
no ego in people wanting all to think their way? They don't think they are
superior to others? they don't think they are above? Having a different
concept of the Bible is far from thinking one is above it..or above God.
That is another red herring. God is my cornerstone...I love God and
believe that all is One in God. If I believe that no one is higher or
lower than God...then that is not ego...that is love in my beliefs. I
don't see God as "over there" and everything else "over there". I don't
think I am above...below or away from God. If you could understand my
take..you would apologize for painting me in such a way...it is sad.



It's just when that when
Post by r***@yahoo.com
such statements are broken down, they are shown to be inane. Their
thinking has been twisted by their own ego. Romans 1 states: although
they claimed to wise, they became as fools. It also says: they
exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created
things, rather than the creator.
B - Like worshipping the Bible and a building and a Pastor and a belief
over God? Who says this does not refer to you or the way you think?
Post by r***@yahoo.com
They have chosen to create for themselves a mental construct of God.
They have picked and chosen the aspects they would want to see, and
discarded the others.
B - The Bible says to give to him who asks...so please give me money. If
you do not..you yourself have picked and chosen which you want to see. It
will come down to you just not wanting to part with your money..but you
will find some way to justify it. Hypocrisy is not a pretty thing.



They haven't made an idol of wood or stone, but
Post by r***@yahoo.com
they made an idol just the same. Bren's idol is a false god. It
doesn't exist except in bren's mind. That's a problem with
deviating from the bible, people end up making false gods. Things not
based in reality.
B - What is my idol? The people that wrote the bible ...who says they did
not make it up in their own minds? So you are going the "reality" route
now? please do prove all of Jesus's miracles then.
What "reality" are you speaking of?
Post by r***@yahoo.com
If you want to know God and follow Him, then follow the bible, believe
the bible, trust the bible.
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE come to the
father, EXCEPT by me"
B - No thankyou. I am not into idols. I believe in God..I believe in Jesus
and I believe that no one comes to the father (Creator) but except by the
symbolic son (the God or Christ within). You connect an egoic Jesus to
that...I don't. I speak of the Christ of Jesus..that same Christ or
symbolic son that I believe is in all of us.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
No one gets to the father by following some made up "inner Christ".
I demonstrated what kind of nonsense that leads to. One can only get to
God through Jesus. And we only know about Jesus through the Bible.
B - so says you. Your demonstration has done nothing but give you a good
feeling. Good on you..we all should have such a good feeling. As to the
last two lines...first of the last...I agree but through Christ..not the
egoic Jesus..and the last one? Yes...we know of Jesus through the bible.


Blessings
Bren
gilgames
2006-09-27 03:37:28 UTC
Permalink
<<
I also read the Nag
Hammadi and many other spiritual texts.
The Nag Hammadi texts (with the best known exception of the Gospel of
Thomas) were written in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, and represent a
conscientous aversion from the doctrine represented by the Canonical New
Testament. The Church Fathers (Ireaneus, Clement of Alexandria,
Hyppolitus etc) immediately rejected that doctrine.
suneejan
2006-09-27 03:37:28 UTC
Permalink
A person needs Christ to get to heaven. Christ is the mediator between
God and man. 1 Timothy 2:55
One may learn of Jesus thru reading he Bible but needs to ask HIM in
their lives once they believe. Romans 3:23 Romans6:23 and Rev. 3:20.
r***@yahoo.com
2006-09-27 03:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
It's a little more than just an opinion.
B - you'd have to prove that.
OK, I had originally written a more detailed response to some of the
comments, but I think for clarities sake I should just keep to a brief
summary.

I used the logic law of non-contradiction to show that your statement
was absurd.
Now if I have misunderstood the terms, please explain how exactly your
statement could work, or the definition of the terms as you meant them.
If you want to try and use the illusion defense, then you will have to
demonstrate that love is an illusion or life is an illusion or whatever
else you might want, but that defense needs to be proven in order to be
acceptable in itself.
Post by B.G. Kent
I am not and have never talked against the Bible.
I simply don't believe that all of it is of God.
All I said was "the Bible is right about this aspect of God, Bren is
wrong."
I didn't say you talked against the bible. However, your idea here
certainly contradicts it. And as I have shown, you can't be right.
Post by B.G. Kent
B - and there is no ego in people wanting all to think their way?
They don't think they are superior to others? they don't think
they are above? Having a different concept of the Bible is far from
thinking one is above it..or above God.
Is it tremendous EGO that drives math professors to insist that 2+2=4?
And not 5 or 3?
There are things that are simply true. Unless you have some good
reasons for defying the laws of logic, I'm going to stand by my
argument.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
[the bible] says: they exchanged the truth of God for a lie,
and worshipped and served created things, rather than the creator.
B - Like worshipping the Bible [snip]
The "worshipping the bible instead of God" argument sounds very
clever, but once you divorce God from what he says, then he means
nothing anymore. As you've proven, people can have any ideas of God
they want, and as long as there is nothing to correct them, every
opinion is equally valid. God ceases to be real to people, and the only
reality is individual opinion.
I believe this is your aim: the destruction of any reality to God.

Perhaps some of the other things I didn't respond to are particularly
important. If so, let me know and I will respond to them. For instance,
despite all the protests that I have proved nothing, the argument was
there for all to see, and there has been no real rebuttal. I was told I
didn't understand, but you didn't correct the understanding. I was
told it could possibly be an illusion, but I have been given no reason
to accept that as valid.
So I am asking you for a rebuttal. You have asked for proof and I gave
it. At least be decent enough to acknowledge that.
B.G. Kent
2006-09-28 02:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
<<
I also read the Nag
Hammadi and many other spiritual texts.
The Nag Hammadi texts (with the best known exception of the Gospel of
Thomas) were written in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, and represent a
conscientous aversion from the doctrine represented by the Canonical New
Testament. The Church Fathers (Ireaneus, Clement of Alexandria,
Hyppolitus etc) immediately rejected that doctrine.
B - how do you know they "represent a conscientous aversion from the
doctrine" ?

Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-28 02:42:27 UTC
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 ***@yahoo.com wrote:

*snip for space and content*
Post by r***@yahoo.com
nothing anymore. As you've proven, people can have any ideas of God
they want, and as long as there is nothing to correct them, every
opinion is equally valid. God ceases to be real to people, and the only
reality is individual opinion.
I believe this is your aim: the destruction of any reality to God.
B - prove that there is God..then prove that God said what God said. If
you cannot then please don't state that God and the belief in such..is
logical...and right and true. I have an opinon of God and God is very
real to me. My Aim is simply to get people to stop talking for everyone
and keep it as a subjective view. I find that doing such is far more
honest and respectful of others than saying what God is...and saying that
anyone that disagrees with you..is either not Christian,not logical...or
not going to Heaven etc.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
So I am asking you for a rebuttal. You have asked for proof and I gave
it. At least be decent enough to acknowledge that.
B - But you don't HAVE to believe me or my way..and I never said you had
too. I don't care if you believe in the literalness of the Bible or see it
as the Jewish Mishrashic way of story telling that I do...coupled with
koan and many many parable. What I care about...and the only thing in
regards to your posts that I do care about....is to stop speaking for
everyone...speak for yourself only.

This is mY opinion only.

Blessings for enlightenment.
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-28 02:42:27 UTC
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Post by suneejan
A person needs Christ to get to heaven. Christ is the mediator between
God and man. 1 Timothy 2:55
Prove please.
Post by suneejan
One may learn of Jesus thru reading he Bible but needs to ask HIM in
their lives once they believe. Romans 3:23 Romans6:23 and Rev. 3:20.
Again...Prove please.

Blessings
Bren
gilgames
2006-09-28 02:42:27 UTC
Permalink
<<
One may learn of Jesus thru reading he Bible but needs to ask HIM in
their lives once they believe. Romans 3:23 Romans6:23 and Rev. 3:20.
I do not see the connection for these:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is]
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


IMHO this happens at the moment of the death, the final decision, no
assurance before that

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my
voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him,
and he with me.
l***@hotmail.com
2006-09-28 02:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
B - I am constantly...I just don't believe that I have to argue
Then why do you come into this NG? Why did you bother to
make this reply? It is to argue your point/position. You are
either deliberately deceitful or you are blinded by your vanities.
l***@hotmail.com
2006-09-28 02:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
You believe the Bible is God speaking literally...not all here do
and we all consider ourselves Christians (the majority here that is). Have
respect for others please.
There is of course, the famous report of that woman living in NYC,
claiming to be Anastasia. It was a harmless fantasy so everyone
let her be. There are numerous other such claims with just about
the same response. It didn't hurt anyone so why raise a stink
about it?

However, when you come into this NG and claim to be a follower
of Christ while at the same time refusing much of what He stated,
you must expect to be held accountable. This is not just a
simply fantasy. Because your "opinion" of who Jesus is is
contrary to the scriptural motif, you are an idolator, not a Christian,
or a "little Christ." You are an idolator because you make yourself
out to be the definer of God. If God is God, capital "G", then
it is impossible for you to define Him. He, being infinite, must
reveal Himself for He is beyond all our imaginative opinions. But
this you will not allow.

You ask for respect but then you flippantly disrespect the
members of this NG who constantly call you on this one point
-your claim to being a "Christian." God is not an "opinion." He
is whom He has revealed HImself to be in both general and
special revelation. But as you have already been warned, you
place yourself in the same company of Rom 1:18ff. This isn't
kids stuff. This determines your eternal future. Not because
I say so, but because He had clearly declared it to be so.

Respect the members of this NG. Stop calling yourself a
Christian. You are a pantheist.
Burkladies
2006-09-28 02:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Gil, there is no aversion from Christ's doctrines represented by the
Canonical NT. More church fathers, Simon Peter, St. John, St. Mark,
St. Luke and St. Thomas are consistant with 2nd and 3rd century
writings with the Nag Hammadi.

Blessed be, Lady
Post by B.G. Kent
<<
I also read the Nag
Hammadi and many other spiritual texts.
The Nag Hammadi texts (with the best known exception of the Gospel of
Thomas) were written in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries, and represent a
conscientous aversion from the doctrine represented by the Canonical New
Testament. The Church Fathers (Ireaneus, Clement of Alexandria,
Hyppolitus etc) immediately rejected that doctrine.
l***@hotmail.com
2006-10-02 02:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burkladies
Gil, there is no aversion from Christ's doctrines represented by the
Canonical NT. More church fathers, Simon Peter, St. John, St. Mark,
St. Luke and St. Thomas are consistant with 2nd and 3rd century
writings with the Nag Hammadi.
Some of the Gnostic movements of the 2nd C involved a kind of
initiation (ex.: the Naassenes) whereas it is easy to categorize the
Colossian heresy as a 1st C form of "incipient Gnosticism."
However, it is not quite so easy to relate it to any of the particular
forms of developed Gnosticism known today from Irenaeus and Hippolytus
or more pertinent to the thread, from the Nag Hammadi texts. The
Christological use of the noun plErwma in Colossians was designed to
refute Gnostic ideas associated with that term in the heresy, but even
if that were so, this does not give much help in ascertaining what
those Gnostic ideas were.

Nothing would be extraordinary in a system of incipient Gnosticism
expanding in such a way as to make room for Christian elements within
itself. An analogy to such an expansion has been detected in the
relationship of 2 of the Nag Hammadi texts-Eugnostos the Blessed and
The Sophia of Jesus Christ. Eugnostos is a didactic letter addressed
by a teacher to his disciples while the Sophia is a revelatory
discourse delivered by the risen Christ to His followers. While
Eugnostos has no explicit Christian content, its substance is
incorporated in the Sophia and Christianized by means of expansions
adapted to its new setting.

But Gnosticism and even incipient Gnosticism must be defined before
they can be used intelligently in such a discussion. A suitable
definition of Gnosticism was proposed by Scholem. It is suitable in
that he had in mind especially what he called "Jewish Gnosticism."
He defined Gnosticism as a "religious movement that proclaimed a
mystical esotericism for the elect based on illumination and the
acquisition of a higher knowledge of things heavenly and divine," the
higher knowledge being "soteric" as well as "esoteric."

Now it would be difficult to maintain the ascertain that the existence
of a decidedly pre-Christian Gnosticism. The Nag Hammadi texts reflect
an awareness of Gnostic ideas by the church fathers, but history
remains fairly silent on things like a Gnostic "church," rules of
faith, canon, and any authoritative teaching for Gnostic initiates. No
extant manuscripts support pre-Christian Gnosticism. So one can say
that Gnosticism existed no earlier than Christianity and that it most
likely grew from interaction with various sources along with
Christianity

I would suggest the readers refer to an article in the Grace
Theological Journal, Fall 87, titled: "Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism and New
Testament Interpretation" by William W. Combs. By way of introduction,
Combs writes:

Quote

The Gnostic heresy alluded to in the NT and widely repudiated by
Christian writers in the second century and after has been increasingly
studied in the last forty years. The discovery in upper Egypt of an
extensive collection of Gnostic writings on papyri transformed a poorly
known movement in early Christianity into a well documented heresy of
diverse beliefs and practices.

The relationship of Gnosticism and the NT is an issue that has not
been resolved by the new documents. Attempts to explain the theology of
the NT as dependent on Gnostic teachings rest on questionable
hypotheses. The Gnostic redeemer-myth cannot be documented before the
second century. Thus, though the Gnostic writings provide helpful
insight into the heresies growing out of Christianity, it cannot be
assumed that the NT grew out of Gnostic teachings.

End Quote

Bultmann and his followers have argued that the Christian conception of
Jesus as a descending-ascending saviour figure was derived from the
Gnostic redeemer myth. The classic description of the myth was set
forth by Bultmann in a 1925 article. He outlined twenty-eight
characteristics that he considered to have constituted the original
myth. Yamauchi has conveniently summarized those characteristics:

1. In the cosmic drama a heavenly 'Urmensch' or Primal Man of Light
falls and is torn to pieces by demonic powers. These particles are
encapsuled as the sparks of light in the 'pneumatics' of mankind.
2. The demons try to stupefy the 'pneumatics' by sleep and
forgetfulness so they will forget their divine origin.
3. The transcendent Deity sends another Being of Light, the
'Redeemer,' who descends the demonic spheres, assuming the
deceptive garments of a bodily exterior to escape the notice of the
demons.
4. The Redeemer is sent to awaken the 'pneumatics' to the truth of
their heavenly origins and gives them the necessary 'gnosis' or
'knowledge' to serve as passwords for their heavenly re-ascent.
5. The Redeemer himself re-ascends, defeating the demonic powers, and
thereby makes a way for the spirits that will follow him.
6. Cosmic redemption is achieved when the souls of men are collected
and gathered upward. In this process the Redeemer is himself redeemed.
i.e., the Primal Man who fell in the beginning is reconstituted.
[Edwin M. Yamauchi, "Pre-Christian Gnosticism in the Nag Hammadi
Texts?"]

Combs again writes:

Quote

The thirteen NH codices have significantly impacted the study of early
Christianity. Gnosticism is no longer known only from the outside, from
what opponents of the movement recorded. Now the Gnostic teachings can
be read firsthand in the forty tractates unique to the NH library. And
thus, the growth of Christianity and attendant heresies are better
documented and more clearly understood.

The NH library also provides helpful background to the NT. Heresies
are already being confronted in the NT, and though evidence is lacking
to identify those heresies clearly with the Gnosticism of the second
century, similarities in some of the false teachings are unmistakable.
However, students of the NT should be careful not to interpret NT
references to concepts such as dualism and docetism, which later became
elements in the doctrine of the second century Gnostic sects, as
evidence of Gnosticism in the first century. It is true that the roots
of Gnosticism can be found in the Judaism, Christianity, and paganism
of the first century, but classical Gnosticism has not yet been
documented before the second century.

In this article it has only been possible to touch on several of the
specific areas of NT interpretation where the NH library is now being
appealed to as a source of new light. Since the interpretation of the
library is still in its infancy, students of the NT will undoubtedly be
hearing more about NH in the future. However, an important issue for NT
studies will continue to be the question of pre-Christian Gnosticism.
Now that all the tractates have been published, we can be assured, as
Yamauchi has put it, "that there are no unexploded bombshells."
Although it is possible that a strong case may yet be made for
non-Christian Gnosticism in some of the texts, non-Christian is not
necessarily pre-Christian. Furthermore, NH has not produced any Gnostic
documents that are prior to or even contemporary with the birth of
Christianity.

[GTJ 8:2 (Fall 87) p. 212]
r***@yahoo.com
2006-10-06 02:20:29 UTC
Permalink
B.G. Kent wrote:

I tried to respond to this right after it was posted, but several of my
posts have recently been either dropped or lost, and did not make it
through. So I am trying again now.
Post by B.G. Kent
B - prove that there is God..then prove that God said what God said. If
you cannot then please don't state that God and the belief in such..is
logical...and right and true.
Forgive me for this, but this is a lie.
You said: "If you cannot [prove]... then don't state..."

But the truth is that you don't want it said even if it can be
proved.
Stop asking for proof, it is hypocritical.
Post by B.G. Kent
I have an opinon of God and God is very real to me.
OK, it might be "real to you", but if something that is inherently
contradictory and therefore CAN'T exist is real to you, then it would
seem you have some delusion issues.
Post by B.G. Kent
What I care about is to stop speaking for everyone.
speak for yourself only.
My Aim is to get people to stop talking for everyone
and keep it as a subjective view.
"speak for yourself only"
"my aim is to get people to"
Practice what you preach and speak for yourself only. If your beliefs
are subjective, then say it. But don't try and get everyone else to
play by your rules.

I note also that you plainly state here: Your stated aim is for
everyone else to admit their views are only subjective. You aren't
interested in truth, logic, proof or being right. You are only
interested that no one claims these things. This way there is only
subjective belief. That makes it all equal, but it also makes it all
equally worthless.

Even if someone had proof/truth/logic you wouldn't care, because your
interest is the elimination of objective truth in relation to
God/religion. But it's asinine to even think we could live in a world
like that at any level of thinking. Why people think it is good at the
religion level is only because they don't believe in it at all. You
think beliefs like this are dangerous and divisive and must be stopped.


I'm going to return to something that you ignored in a previous post:
It is not the ego of math professors that insists 2+2=4, it is the
knowledge that some things are truth. There are things which are
objectively true. IF there is a God, then there is a reality to him as
well. That means there will be false ideas and true ideas. One can't
just say that any idea will do unless one doesn't believe in God at
all OR that the truth value of the beliefs is of any consequence. But
there IS an objective truth about God. IF He is real, then certain
facts about Him are real as well.

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