Discussion:
Rational approach to Christianity
(too old to reply)
Tommi Leino
2007-11-05 00:35:30 UTC
Permalink
It is hard for a modern rational man to adopt a religion that
demands such extreme faith amidst the strong indications that we
do not have proof of the historical basis even of the seemingly
one of the most important facts, the non-metaphoric resurrection
of Jesus, not to even speak of the lesser miracles that were
performed as a proof of Him being the only true Son of God.

It is hard to believe these facts even if we limit our search
only to the Bible and its Four Gospels, knowing the historical
context, of illiterate and superstition-driven people of the
ancient world. How they could have captured all of the details
from the beginning to the end with unfailing accuracy? Was there
a scribe with Jesus all the time? Maybe there was, but for
instance, was there also a scribe with Mary, before the ministry
of Jesus, to record The Magnificat, her song of praise?

Surely it must become apparent to reader of the Gospels,
especially when comparisons are made with the Four Gospels,
that the details of events, or even the number of events, do not
totally correlate. The Evangelists must have used their artistic
freedom when converting the far-branching spoken account,
that must have been in wide circulation during the time period,
to a concise written text. And the job only becomes harder when
the task is to filter through a rich of metaphysical metaphors
mingled with spirited exaggerations of genuine or make-believe
events.

As a topping for the cake of disbelief comes the modern
assumption that the original Gospels were left anonymous[1],
and that the texts have been "corrected" later on in the
history, and that the apocryphal texts give ever wider scope of
who Jesus really was, not to speak of that the apocryphal texts
in some cases may seem to be even more authentic than the
anonymous, possibly heavily controlled canonical texts are.

Whether or not the significance or validity of the concerns
presented herein is enough to discredit the absolute
authenticity of the written Word in the Gospels for the average
rational mind, the question is still presented. What if
historical Jesus never existed? What if there is no life after
death? What then, is the value of Jesus?

Some say that it is a core part of being Christian to have an
absolute faith on the Gospels and that such a question is not to
be even contemplated on. But isn't this kind of reasoning in
odds with the figure of Jesus in the Gospels, who in many
occasions reproached scholars of mere written word and called us
to exceed them in righteousness[2]?

On the contrary, would it be acceptable if we would prepare the
way for letting the mass of unbelieving atheists understand the
core message of Jesus if we take the message out of its much
boasted and unverifiable supernatural context and save the
supernatural aspect and related issues for contemplation only
within the circles of so called "born-again Christians," so that
the newcomers, now with proper feasibility of assimilating the
core message could also have a possibility for being changed
from within and hence have the ability to join the inner circles
of Christians as true followers of Jesus?

If Christianity wishes to stand the test of time, now upon the
advent of literate, enlightened people, a change of approach in
our missionary work is in hot demand. During the history each of
the generations and each of the movements within the realm of
Christianity have had their own individual approaches that fit
the surrounding context of history. Why couldn't we also change
the emphasis of our preaching, for being more rationally
acceptable for the people of our time? It would be a radical
change, obviously, but so was the advent of technological
advances to past generations and yet it seems that the
Christianity is still essentially trusting on Middle Ageish
reasoning when presented with questions about the validity of
our message.

What is the core message, or teaching of Jesus, when taken out
of the supernatural context? The Sermon on the Mount, for
instance, in Matthew's Gospel, describes in very down-to-earth
terms what kind of state of mind is expected of his followers
and none of the expectations explicitly demand fidelity to or
outright worship of a supernatural being and all the
supernatural references therein can be well taken in a
metaphorical sense. Even with such drastic ripping of the
supernatural layer, the outcome well can lead to a more direct
relationship with God through this rational approach in
comparison to a Church-led submission to time-tested forms that
could well turn to simple idol-worship of Jesus[3], instead of
actually hearing and acting upon the wisdom inherent in the
written teachings of Jesus.

For example, Jesus in several occasions threathen us with the
hell. Now, is the right question today to discuss about whether
there is hell or whether one should simply believe to it even
though there wouldn't be a way to get a proof of it? These are
valid questions, but not necessarily important ones. People can
spend hours on the discussion of the metaphysical reality but
there is no other value of these topics except in the case of
the supposed after-life, which yet again, is a theoretical one
to the rational mind.

What, however, has a direct affect to our life here on earth is
the concept of "the hell on earth" that is, an interpretation of
hell as a metaphorical state of mind of individual persons or of
the inner state of communities or places. The descriptions of
hell are descriptions of extreme unhappiness. Understood that
way, the question of whether to sin or not becomes a question of
happiness. Everyone can test this claim in practice by
contemplating the nature of happiness by comparing an act of
adultery to an act of genuine, unselfish love. What is real
happiness, is then the question, and so the whole message of
Jesus is turned to being a very desirable one indeed. The
promise would be "a heaven on earth" if people would act
according to His teaching and the "kingdom" would not come only
in the distant future, but it would be upon[4] the participants
with each of the loving acts in accord with Jesus.

There, of course, is a catch. Heavenly love here on earth is not
that easy. First of all, we are all bombarded with temptations
that try to drift us from the path of love. Secondly, the acts
of love are not always easy and Jesus was a good example of
this, with his death on the Cross. Thirdly, in order to get a
share of the "ultimate happiness," we have to have a bit of
faith but this faith doesn't have to be blind, because the
results can be subjectively verified.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus tells us to give to the
needy[5] but without letting "our left hand know what our right
hand is doing" so that we wouldn't take the credit to ourself.
This surely is in order to stay as an empty vessel eligible to
be filled by the reward that is promised by Jesus. Given by
Jesus, God, or by whatever entity or no entity, the reward
surely would happen, right there in the moment of our act, as
long as we don't make adultery towards ourselves by snatching
the credit to ourselves and therefore filling our vessel with
our own stuff in which case we would be feeding on our own
finite flesh instead of feeding on the divine flesh where there
would not be end.

Starting with such a positive reason-friendly attitude, the way
forward on the path would naturally lead the initiated towards
deeper faith and deeper relationship with this "unnameable
entity" and they would avoid sin and learn to know personally
what is this much advertised "love of Jesus." They would become
more like a true image of God[6] as they become to understand
how God works with us in these subtle ways even up to realizing
their sonship[7] with Our Father as they gradually go through
the conversion from earthly subsistence to heavenly subsistence,
as Prodigal Sons on the way to home.

Is there, therefore, any reasons why shouldn't we support
evangelists who in this way tries to build a bridge towards
today's mass of rationalists?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists
[2] Matthew 5:20
[3] Isaiah 29:13
[4] Matthew 12:28
[5] Matthew 6:3, Matthew 6:4, Matthew 25:40
[6] Matthew 5:48, Matthew 6:10
[7] Matthew 5:9

--
http://namhas.colony.ee
B.G. Kent
2007-11-07 02:47:28 UTC
Permalink
For me it has never been the belief in something seemingly unreal...but
the fact that so many out there are forcing these beliefs that they cannot
corroborate onto others and then adding after-death threats to the deal.
It would be as if I unearthed a book on flying bunnies and believed in it
and forced others to believe or they might have their souls ripped in a
sort of weird unending punishment which really seems pointless.

Now obviously I am not comparing the Bible to a book on flying bunnies in
whole but just the idea of forcing something sans proof onto others.

Belief must come out of ones own connection to it..not by threats. What
you may get is a false belief then...borne out of fear and not something
that really means something to you without a paranoia of "if I don't force
my brain to believe it God will get me!!!"

In the past people were put in Jail for thinking and expressing outside
the Bible..and it is sad that we still have this inborne paranoia that the
inquisitors are going to get us if we don't acquiesce.

Mass hysteria and pressure is a sad thing. I come to God quietly...with
love only...it is a personal thing for me...not a "do it or risk dying or
being ostracized from the club" kind of thing.

Bren, who believes with her whole heart in the creator.
c***@flapper.net
2007-11-19 01:59:01 UTC
Permalink
I find it intersting that people who have never READ the Bible, let
alone actually STUDIED it have such OPINIONS about it.

Checker
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-20 02:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@flapper.net
I find it intersting that people who have never READ the Bible, let
alone actually STUDIED it have such OPINIONS about it.
I used to find it 'interesting', but now I have seen it too often, and I just
find it disappointing. Except, of course, for how well it proves Solomon spoke
in his Proverb about such folly. For it is not disappointing to see the
fulfillment of his prophetic prediction:

A fool hath no delight in understanding, but only that his heart may lay itself
bare.
(Pro 18:2 JPS)

Surely expressing such opinions about the unread Bible are a good example of not
delighting in understanding, but delighting instead in expressing one's own
opinion, no matter how worthless it is. For 'heart' in Hebrew also includes what
we now refer to as 'mind'.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2007-11-20 02:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@flapper.net
I find it intersting that people who have never READ the Bible, let
alone actually STUDIED it have such OPINIONS about it.
Checker
B - That would include nearly everyone...
It really is subjective what one means by study.

Bren
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-21 02:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by c***@flapper.net
I find it intersting that people who have never READ the Bible, let
alone actually STUDIED it have such OPINIONS about it.
Checker
B - That would include nearly everyone...
No, it would not.
Post by B.G. Kent
It really is subjective what one means by study.
Not at all. Rather, the extreme of subjective solipsism to which you sink with
this irresponsible nonsense only proves you have learned nothing from whatever
education system you went to for your 'schooling'.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
A Brown
2007-11-26 00:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Matthew Johnson
the extreme of subjective solipsism to which you sink with
this irresponsible nonsense only proves you have learned nothing from
whatever
education system you went to for your 'schooling'.
Another post simply criticizing the poster and adding nothing to the
discussion....
c***@flapper.net
2007-11-26 00:29:55 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:39:14 GMT, Matthew Johnson
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by c***@flapper.net
I find it intersting that people who have never READ the Bible, let
alone actually STUDIED it have such OPINIONS about it.
Checker
B - That would include nearly everyone...
No, it would not.
Post by B.G. Kent
It really is subjective what one means by study.
Not at all. Rather, the extreme of subjective solipsism to which you sink with
this irresponsible nonsense only proves you have learned nothing from whatever
education system you went to for your 'schooling'.
You are JUST FULL OF ASSUMPTIONS aren't you? You accuse me of
solipsism which is just as far from truth as North is from South, and
your presume to be in any kind of position to evaluate my education.

It fitures. You appear to like to live with beliefs not rooted in
facts. That is your privilege. But don't PRETEND to assert your
imaginations upon me. You can't.

Checker
B.G. Kent
2007-11-27 01:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@flapper.net
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:39:14 GMT, Matthew Johnson
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by c***@flapper.net
I find it intersting that people who have never READ the Bible, let
alone actually STUDIED it have such OPINIONS about it.
Checker
B - That would include nearly everyone...
No, it would not.
Sure it would. Having the majority view on a book does not mean that one
has actually "read" the Bible. Having the minority view does not mean that
one has NOT read the Bible.

Bren
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-27 01:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@flapper.net
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:39:14 GMT, Matthew Johnson
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by c***@flapper.net
I find it intersting that people who have never READ the Bible, let
alone actually STUDIED it have such OPINIONS about it.
Checker
B - That would include nearly everyone...
No, it would not.
Post by B.G. Kent
It really is subjective what one means by study.
Not at all. Rather, the extreme of subjective solipsism to which you sink with
this irresponsible nonsense only proves you have learned nothing from whatever
education system you went to for your 'schooling'.
You are JUST FULL OF ASSUMPTIONS aren't you?
Well, at least _my_ assumptions are good ones. Yours, however, are not. You have
shown this most splendidly yourself by this post, in which you assumed those
words of mine above were addressed to you. They were not. They were addressed to
Brenda. She was the one who made the outrageous claim that what 'study' means is
objective.
Post by c***@flapper.net
You accuse me of
solipsism which is just as far from truth as North is from South,
Again, your bad assumption. Those words were addressed to and about Brenda, not
you.

My accusations against you tend to be milder, such as your inability to READ
illustrated by this post!

[SNIP]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-07 02:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommi Leino
It is hard for a modern rational man
Only if in the expression "rational man", you insist on the wrong
meaning of the word 'rational'. But apparently this is exactly your
error. Error is is, though, since we call the Liturgy, "this rational
and bloodless sacrifice".
Post by Tommi Leino
to adopt a religion that demands such extreme faith amidst the strong
indications that we do not have proof of the historical basis even of
the seemingly one of the most important facts, the non-metaphoric
resurrection of Jesus, not to even speak of the lesser miracles that
were performed as a proof of Him being the only true Son of God.
You must be laboring under a misconception of what 'history' is. If
the claim was not so extraordinary, people would widely recognize the
historical evidence for this Resurrection, since it has more
historical attestation than a great many other [widely accepted] facts
of ancient history. But since the claim is so extraordinary, people
routinely demand more.
Post by Tommi Leino
It is hard to believe these facts even if we limit our search only to
the Bible and its Four Gospels, knowing the historical context, of
illiterate and superstition-driven people of the ancient world.
Well, if you are going to put the wrong limits on your search, of
course you will come up with the wrong results. But this is exactly
what you did. Where did you get this idea that the "people of the
ancient world" are "illiterate and superstition-driven"? Have you
never read Sophocles, Plato, Aristotle, or Augustine? Not one of these
was "illiterate and superstition-driven". Yet all accepted the
existence of God, even if only one of them understood that that one
God has to be the Christian God.
Post by Tommi Leino
How they could have captured all of the details from the beginning to
the end with unfailing accuracy?
Not everyone who believes in the divine inspiration of the Bible
believes that they -did- "capture all of the details from the
beginning to the end with unfailing accuracy". Are you using this as
the basis for a straw-man argument?
Post by Tommi Leino
Was there a scribe with Jesus all the time? Maybe there was, but for
instance, was there also a scribe with Mary, before the ministry of
Jesus, to record The Magnificat, her song of praise?
Once upon a time, there was a rather heated discussion in this
newsgroup concerning the meaning of the Latin word 'contio' to
describe such passages in ancient history. Look this word up in Lewis
& Short, and then I will be able to explain to you what they were
doing and why they were right to do it when they attributed such a
'contio' to Mary.
Post by Tommi Leino
Surely it must become apparent to reader of the Gospels,
especially when comparisons are made with the Four Gospels,
that the details of events, or even the number of events, do not
totally correlate.
And some readers have actually found this _more_ convincing, since
even today, eyewitnesses to the same event do not "totally correlate".
Post by Tommi Leino
The Evangelists must have used their artistic freedom when converting
the far-branching spoken account,
'THE' "far-branching spoken account"? Why are you sure there is only
one? And what happened to Q?
Post by Tommi Leino
that must have been in wide circulation during the time period, to a
concise written text. And the job only becomes harder when the task
is to filter through a rich of metaphysical metaphors mingled with
spirited exaggerations of genuine or make-believe events.
You are making too much work for yourself. It is NOT our job to
"filter through a rich of metaphysical metaphors" etc. This is first
of all the case because the Gospel writers, despite your breezy
assertions, were NOT given to metaphysics _or_ "spirited
exaggerations".
Post by Tommi Leino
As a topping for the cake of disbelief comes the modern
assumption that the original Gospels were left anonymous[1],
But this should not cause disbelief -- only if it is completely
misunderstood will it cause disbelief. But apparently, complete
misunderstanding is your goal.
Post by Tommi Leino
and that the texts have been "corrected" later on in the
history,
This assumption is NOT shared by believers. It is popular only among
the unfaithful, especially among those who still find religion
fascinating to analyze -- though they don't believe a word of it
themselves. On the contrary: it is only a minority among NT textual
critics (for example) who believe that the doctrine of Scripture was
'corrected' to match emerging orthodoxy. Metzger, Vaganay and Nestle
did not share this opinion.
Post by Tommi Leino
and that the apocryphal texts give ever wider scope of who Jesus
really was,
But _this_ assumption is _wildly_ unhistorical. Indeed: the irony does
not escape me: you who complain about lack of historical evidence for
the Resurrection are so _quick_ to accept unhistorical 'evidence'
here!
Post by Tommi Leino
not to speak of that the apocryphal texts in some cases may seem to
be even more authentic than the anonymous, possibly heavily
controlled canonical texts are.
No, they are not. Not even close. You can find a few crackpot
'scholars' who advance such claims, but that doesn't make the claims
true. It doesn't even make it plausible.

If you pay attention, you will discover that there are a LOT of people
in this NG who have read these 'apocryphal texts', and found them
quite unconvincing. Sometimes, their reasons for finding them
unconvincing are quite good. The so-called "Gospel fo Thomas", for
example, is clearly Gnostic mythology, with no relation to the
historical Jesus at all (nor to Christianity).
Post by Tommi Leino
Whether or not the significance or validity of the concerns presented
herein is enough to discredit the absolute authenticity of the
written Word in the Gospels for the average rational mind, the
question is still presented.
No doubt it is. But it is presented poorly. And when I say 'poorly', I
am not just referring to the highly cumbrous structure of your
sentence above: you really have given FAR too much credence to
half-baked ideas throughout your buildup to this point.
Post by Tommi Leino
What if historical Jesus never existed?
This _used_ to be a popular objection in the 19th century. But since
then, even unbelieving scholars have finally come to admit that He did
exist; there is no longer any _reasonable_ doubt to this. So why do
you even mention it, when so many scholars have already rejected it?
Post by Tommi Leino
What if there is no life after death? What then, is the value of
Jesus?
Why, none, of course. That is _why_ Paul stressed the very great
importance of believing that Christ rose from the dead literally, and
that since He (the 'first fruits') did this, so will His
followers. That _is_ the point of the famous passage:

Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. Now
if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say
that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no
resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; IF CHRIST
HAS NOT BEEN RAISED, THEN OUR PREACHING IS IN VAIN AND YOUR FAITH IS
IN VAIN. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we
testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is
true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised,
then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your
faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who
have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. IF FOR THIS LIFE ONLY WE
HAVE HOPED IN CHRIST, WE ARE OF ALL MEN MOST TO BE PITIED. But in fact
Christ HAS been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who
have fallen asleep. (1Co 15:11-20 RSVA)

This is why anything calling itself 'Christianity' yet lacking
the physical, literal Resurrection is a fraud.
Post by Tommi Leino
Some say that it is a core part of being Christian to have an
absolute faith on the Gospels and that such a question is not to
be even contemplated on. But isn't this kind of reasoning in
odds with the figure of Jesus in the Gospels, who in many
occasions reproached scholars of mere written word and called us
to exceed them in righteousness[2]?
This is a fantastic misrepresentation of what He said! You have
allowed yourself to be confused by the merely incidental fact that the
Pharisees he referred to were "scholars of 'mere' written word". But
their being 'scholars' had nothing to do with why we are commanded to
_exceed_ their 'righteousness'.

Not to mention, irony of ironies, their scholarship was primarily of
the _oral_ tradition, not the written word. For in those days, to be
considered a teacher among the Pharisees, you had to _memorize_ the
oral teachings of your predecessors in the tradition, which tradition
-- when later written down -- was called the 'Mishnah'. Pick up a copy
in a bookstore some day to see how _much_ memorization this was.
Post by Tommi Leino
On the contrary, would it be acceptable if we would prepare the
way for letting the mass of unbelieving atheists understand the
core message of Jesus if we take the message out of its much
boasted and unverifiable supernatural context
No, that would change the message drastically, changing it into a
completely different, and completely WRONG message.

[snip]
Post by Tommi Leino
What is the core message, or teaching of Jesus, when taken out of the
supernatural context?
This is a "loaded question". For it assumes that there _is_ a "core
message" that is left, even after "taken out of the supernatural
context".
Post by Tommi Leino
The Sermon on the Mount, for instance, in Matthew's Gospel, describes
in very down-to-earth terms what kind of state of mind is expected of
his followers and none of the expectations explicitly demand fidelity
to or outright worship of a supernatural being and all the
supernatural references therein can be well taken in a metaphorical
sense.
If you tried to follow these commandments yourself, adhering to them
strictly, you might not find them so "down to earth". You _certainly_
would not think that you can do this without supernatural help.
Post by Tommi Leino
Even with such drastic ripping of the supernatural layer, the outcome
well can lead to a more direct relationship with God through this
rational approach
Not at all. Instead, your 'outcome' is a 'relationship' with something
that is not God at all.
Post by Tommi Leino
in comparison to a Church-led submission to time-tested forms that
could well turn to simple idol-worship of Jesus[3], instead of
actually hearing and acting upon the wisdom inherent in the written
teachings of Jesus.
But you aren't hearing and acting on that wisdom yourself. How could
you, when you reject so much of what was written, perverting the
interpretation of the rest? Pay attention to Paul's explanation: no
one who rejects the Resurrection can fairly be called 'Christian'.
Post by Tommi Leino
For example, Jesus in several occasions threathen us with the
hell. Now, is the right question today to discuss about whether
there is hell or whether one should simply believe to it even
though there wouldn't be a way to get a proof of it?
No, that is not the right question. How could it be, when it is a
_loaded__ question?
Post by Tommi Leino
These are valid questions,
No, they are not. Loaded questions rarely are.
Post by Tommi Leino
but not necessarily important ones. People can spend hours on the
discussion of the metaphysical reality but there is no other value of
these topics except in the case of the supposed after-life, which yet
again, is a theoretical one to the rational mind.
This isn't true, either. On the contrary: it sounds like you don't
really even know what a "metaphysical question" is.
Post by Tommi Leino
What, however, has a direct affect to our life here on earth is the
concept of "the hell on earth" that is, an interpretation of hell as
a metaphorical state of mind of individual persons or of the inner
state of communities or places. The descriptions of hell are
descriptions of extreme unhappiness. Understood that way, the
question of whether to sin or not becomes a question of happiness.
Eudaimonism is good, but not quite adequate4 for the foundation of
_Christian_ Ethics.
Post by Tommi Leino
Everyone can test this claim in practice by contemplating the nature
of happiness by comparing an act of adultery to an act of genuine,
unselfish love.
No, that is not a convincing test. Again, the irony does not escape
me: you go on and on about being 'rational', yet here you insist on
something that is not even close to 'rational'.
Post by Tommi Leino
What is real happiness, is then the question, and so the whole
message of Jesus is turned to being a very desirable one indeed. The
promise would be "a heaven on earth" if people would act according to
His teaching and the "kingdom" would not come only in the distant
future, but it would be upon[4] the participants with each of the
loving acts in accord with Jesus.
But this is most certainly _not_ what Christ promised. On the
contrary: He 'promised' us persecution and suffering on earth.
Post by Tommi Leino
There, of course, is a catch. Heavenly love here on earth is not that
easy. First of all, we are all bombarded with temptations that try to
drift us from the path of love.
You succumbed to quite a few of these even in just the act of writing
this post.
Post by Tommi Leino
Secondly, the acts of love are not always easy and Jesus was a good
example of this, with his death on the Cross.
Yes, this is a good example. But do you understand this example
yourself yet? If even Jesus could not achieve heaven on earth, but was
crucified by the powers that be, how do you think that _we_ can
achieve "heaven on earth"? We cannot.
Post by Tommi Leino
Thirdly, in order to get a share of the "ultimate happiness," we have
to have a bit of faith but this faith doesn't have to be blind,
because the results can be subjectively verified.
It is more than "a bit".
Post by Tommi Leino
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus tells us to give to the
needy[5] but without letting "our left hand know what our right
hand is doing" so that we wouldn't take the credit to ourself.
This surely is in order to stay as an empty vessel eligible to
be filled by the reward that is promised by Jesus.
It is? Why do you say 'surely'? There is nothing so 'sure' about this.
Post by Tommi Leino
Given by Jesus, God, or by whatever entity or no entity, the reward
surely would happen, right there in the moment of our act, as long as
we don't make adultery towards ourselves by snatching the credit to
ourselves and therefore filling our vessel with our own stuff in
which case we would be feeding on our own finite flesh instead of
feeding on the divine flesh where there would not be end.
How would this be "feeding on the divine flesh"? What is 'rational' or
"reason-friendly" about this irrational claim?

And yes, the 2nd of these is a loaded question;)
Post by Tommi Leino
Starting with such a positive reason-friendly attitude,
What is 'reason-friendly' about this??
Post by Tommi Leino
the way forward on the path would naturally lead the initiated
towards deeper faith and deeper relationship with this "unnameable
entity" and they would avoid sin and learn to know personally what is
this much advertised "love of Jesus."
I see nothing 'rational' about the way you reached this conclusion.
Post by Tommi Leino
They would become more like a true image of God[6] as they become to
understand how God works with us in these subtle ways even up to
realizing their sonship[7] with Our Father as they gradually go
through the conversion from earthly subsistence to heavenly
subsistence, as Prodigal Sons on the way to home.
But nobody actually _does_ this without accepting the 'supernatural'
in Scripture. For it is _impossible_ for unaided human nature to
accomplish this. We _need_ grace, and grace is supernatural, being a
'supereffluence' of the divine nature itself.
Post by Tommi Leino
Is there, therefore, any reasons why shouldn't we support
evangelists who in this way tries to build a bridge towards
today's mass of rationalists?
Yes, there is. Because if they do this, then they will become just
like the false teachers Christ condemned in those famous words:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea
and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte,
you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. (Mat 23:15
RSVA)
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Tommi Leino
2007-11-12 02:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Tommi Leino
What if there is no life after death? What then, is the value
of Jesus?
Why, none, of course.
"Even if I am an atheist, I would at least like to live like a
saint."[1]

If there is no value in Jesus, when ripped out of its
supernatural context, why would anyone still like to live like
the saints, if not like Him directly?

This can be because they would be after the adoration of others
and hence making oneself as an Idol for others and thus
violating Luke 16:15, Mark 12:30 etc., but apart from that,
could some people have a genuine longing for Imitation[2] of His
Ways, because, for example, they have seen that the path of a
Prodigal Son is a futile attempt of satiating oneself with the
riches of the world that ultimately give no happiness? Maybe
they have realized that as long as they labour only for
themselves, they do not really live, metaphorically speaking,
but only harbour death on their wake, and all of the beautiful
attractions of the world simply crumble to dust[3] in their
hands? Maybe they have realized that they are here not only to
Live but to Love? And once they really would Love, they would
finally begin to Live as well...[4]

Consider for example, that we would have two prehistorical
persons, who would know nothing of God whatsoever, and they both
would hunger, but there would be only one apple between them.
They would be thus presented with a choice of whether to enjoy
the apple alone or to share the joy. Their choice[5] would take
part under the revelation, as we know it, that man does not live
on bread alone[6], no matter if they have yet realized it.
Hence, if they wouldn't share the joy, they would be living in a
lie, because they would have to turn their gaze away from the
suffering other, whom they would have thus left alone in hunger.
Sooner or later, if they have any capability for wisdom at all,
they would become to know the futility of their chosen path,
because both of the parties in this situation would be left
ultimately unhappy and their choice would only breed more
unhappiness and evil things. Until some day, they would decide
to share the joy -wouldn't it be much better already? But what
if either of the parties would give the apple freely to the
other? Wouldn't that create something truly extraordinary?[7]

Indeed, it is not only "a bit of faith" that is required in this
kind of situations, but if we would have enough faith for even
the smallest of this kind of gestures, couldn't our faith then
be likened to "a mustard seed" because isn't it probable that
our loving faith would invoke love also from the receiving side?
Not to speak of the mustard seed that would start to sprout in
our own heart now as we digged space for it. Couldn't it thus be
said that "the good sower receives more than million thanks?"[8]

Happiness without suffering is blind because a full cup cannot
be filled; it is through suffering that we receive and in this
way suffering itself becomes a happy incident because then we
open ourselves to be comforted.[9] If everyone in this world
would be full of happiness, what place would there be for Love?
None. It is through Love that we bring God to this world. That
is, if God truly is Love, as many agree, he must have created
the world as such so that there would be a place and demand for
Love and hence, in other words, a throne for Him to occupy as
the invisible factor in a philosophical equation that can be
likened to "1 + 1 = 3".[10]

Furthermore, if our faith would need to be blind as well,
wouldn't we be incapable of seeing the world as the Kingdom of
God and henceforth behave as its proper citizens would?[11]

And the faith would obviously have to be very blind for many
present-day seekers because they have a hard time of accepting
the dogma of physical resurrection of Jesus. They have hard time
even for seeing the wisdom behind the dogma, especially if it is
coined with a belief that we are saved only by an uncompromising
faith on His death and resurrection, and that no mere following
of His instructions and guidelines would ever be sufficient in
comparison.

Like really, what is a church-goer who "believes" to these
supernatural things, yet continues to lazyass in front of TV and
labouring for the society of self-destruction, just in order to
cover the costs of the slobby lifestyle, but still calls oneself
Christian with a ticket of Salvation?

Maybe we all live in fear. Instead of giving the apple, we eat
it, or at very best we share it, because we do not have faith.
Surely it is fine to sloth when our life is secure. Surely it is
fine because we have so much possessions and things to lose! The
true fidelity to Jesus, as some people could interpret from the
biblical stories, would more or less imply that we would have to
leave the comfort zone of our modern lifestyle. Hence, fear we
truly should, because without our false sanctuary, our Sand
Castles would crumble to dust.

[1] Ratzinger quoted M. Planck in "Truth and Tolerance", p. 141
[2] See e.g. Imitation of Christ by Thomas A Kempis
[3] Matthew 6:19, Matthew 5:13, Psalm 37:2
[4] Matthew 6:33
[5] If, of course, deliberate intimidation is ruled out
[6] Matthew 4:4
[7] Especially so if Matthew 6:3 is followed
[8] Excerpt from Jukka Poika's finnish song (approx. trans.)
[9] Matthew 5:4
[10] Gospel of Thomas v.106, Gospel of Thomas v.48
[11] Matthew 6:22
--
http://namhas.colony.ee
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-26 00:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommi Leino
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Tommi Leino
What if there is no life after death? What then, is the value of
Jesus?
Why, none, of course.
"Even if I am an atheist, I would at least like to live like a
saint."[1]
If there is no value in Jesus, when ripped out of its supernatural
context, why would anyone still like to live like the saints, if not
like Him directly?
Despite what Planck said, they don't. You question is a loaded
question, since it presumes that such people exist. But as Augustine
explained in the Enchiridion, one of the most primary characteristics
of a saint IS that they have the faith in God described in Rom 8:28,
atheists cannot want to "live like the saints", unless they want to
set aside their atheism, too.

Think about this passage:

We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him,
who are called [Vg: saints] according to [whose?] purpose. (Rom 8:28)


I put 'whose?' in brackets, because it is a famous controversy: just
_whose_ 'purpose' is referred to here? Is it God's, as the RSV (and
most English) translations have it? Or is it the person's, as _all_
the Greek Fathers explain it?
Post by Tommi Leino
This can be because they would be after the adoration of others and
hence making oneself as an Idol for others and thus violating Luke
16:15, Mark 12:30 etc., but apart from that, could some people have a
genuine longing for Imitation[2] of His Ways, because, for example,
they have seen that the path of a Prodigal Son is a futile attempt of
satiating oneself with the riches of the world that ultimately give
no happiness?
If you had been paying attention when I gave the quote from Paul, you
might be in a better position to understand the answer to this
question. But since you ignored it, posting your own long non-answer
instead, I have my doubts. What is worse, you didn't even mark where
you snipped.

What are _you_ satiating yourself with when you do these things?
Post by Tommi Leino
Maybe they have realized that as long as they labour only for
themselves, they do not really live, metaphorically speaking, but
only harbour death on their wake, and all of the beautiful
attractions of the world simply crumble to dust[3] in their hands?
You cite the Gospel, but what you describe sounds as much like
existentialism as like the Gospel. Maybe more like existentialism.
Post by Tommi Leino
Maybe they have realized that they are here not only to Live but to
Love? And once they really would Love, they would finally begin to
Live as well...[4]
Someday you might realize that too. But before that day comes, you
have to learn to answer what is proposed to you, instead of ignoring
it, and even failing to mark where you snip.

[snip]
Post by Tommi Leino
And the faith would obviously have to be very blind for many
present-day seekers because they have a hard time of accepting the
dogma of physical resurrection of Jesus.
You have fallen for the fallacy of the "false alternative". It is NOT
true that they have to choose between "blind faith" and rejection of
the dogma.
Post by Tommi Leino
They have hard time even for seeing the wisdom behind the dogma,
Evidently so do you. So how can you be of help to them? You cannot.
Post by Tommi Leino
especially if it is coined with a belief that we are saved only by an
uncompromising faith on His death and resurrection, and that no mere
following of His instructions and guidelines would ever be sufficient
in comparison.
Again, a false alternative: for one of those "instructions and
guidelines" IS "uncompromising faith on His death and
resurrection". Indeed: many would say that is the main such
"instruction and guideline", with good reason. Otherwise, such passages as
Mat 16:24-27 make no sense.
Post by Tommi Leino
Like really, what is a church-goer who "believes" to these
supernatural things, yet continues to lazyass in front of TV and
labouring for the society of self-destruction, just in order to cover
the costs of the slobby lifestyle, but still calls oneself Christian
with a ticket of Salvation?
Such behavior is not consistent with that uncompromising faith. On the
contrary: such behavior _has_ made a drastic compromise with the
weakness of the flesh. No wonder televangelists have such an easy time
taking advantage of them.

[snip]
Post by Tommi Leino
[10] Gospel of Thomas v.106, Gospel of Thomas v.48
But speaking of weakness, quoting the Gospel of Thomas is an _extreme_
weakness. For it has NO historical value, obviously being a Gnostic
forgery. Can't you see the Gnosticism in "split the wood, and there
am I"? That is a reference to the Valentinian Bathys and Sofia.

Gnosticism is not, and never was Christianity. It has always been a
pagan movement, only during the ascendancy of Christianity adopting a
_thin_ 'christian' veneer.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
A Brown
2007-11-28 04:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Despite what Planck said, they don't. You question is a loaded
question...
All difficult questions appear "loaded".
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-29 02:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Despite what Planck said, they don't. You question is a loaded
question...
All difficult questions appear "loaded".
Nonsense. Not all difficult questions appear 'loaded'. So, for example, if I
ask, "Does any modern-day philosopher still take seriously the theory of
hylomorphic composition of material substances", this is NOT a loaded question.
If it appears loaded to you, then that shows your ignorance.

But it is a difficult question, although this might not be immediately obvious
to you.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
A Brown
2007-11-30 03:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Despite what Planck said, they don't. You question is a loaded
question...
All difficult questions appear "loaded".
Nonsense. Not all difficult questions appear 'loaded'.
It appears that way.

Do a search for "loaded question" in this newsgroup...and see who uses and
how many times it's used.

It's just another way to provide distraction...

c***@flapper.net
2007-11-19 01:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommi Leino
It is hard for a modern rational man to adopt a religion that
demands such extreme faith amidst the strong indications that we
do not have proof of the historical basis even of the seemingly
one of the most important facts, the non-metaphoric resurrection
of Jesus, not to even speak of the lesser miracles that were
performed as a proof of Him being the only true Son of God.
Not so! "Modern rational man" accepts MANY things on faith alone,
such as the idea that when he sits in a chair it will be strong enough
to hold him and not crash to the floor. Often it even happens when
crossing the street, that we have faith that the guy in the big red
SUV will STOP at the stopsign!

But Christianity is not based on "blind" faith. Here is what
Christian faith is:

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things
not seen.
NKJV

Faith is SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE.

There is more evidence for the Bible than there is for the existance
of dinosaurs or most extinct species of animals, imho.
Post by Tommi Leino
It is hard to believe these facts even if we limit our search
only to the Bible and its Four Gospels, knowing the historical
context, of illiterate and superstition-driven people of the
ancient world. How they could have captured all of the details
from the beginning to the end with unfailing accuracy?
Since the Bible is not one single source, but is 66 different books
written by 40 or so different writers over a known period of at least
1,600 years, many of whom had no contact with the others, that makes
it about 40 different witnesses to the events that are in the overall
collection.
Post by Tommi Leino
Was there
a scribe with Jesus all the time? Maybe there was, but for
instance, was there also a scribe with Mary, before the ministry
of Jesus, to record The Magnificat, her song of praise?
You leave out the possibility of God, the possibility of the Holy
Spirit. No, there were no internet nor computers there either.
Post by Tommi Leino
Surely it must become apparent to reader of the Gospels,
especially when comparisons are made with the Four Gospels,
that the details of events, or even the number of events, do not
totally correlate.
If you watch someone get robbed in a grocery store parking lot, no
four witnesses saw the same exact thing either. Four different
Gospels by 4 different penmen, emphasizing 4 different perspectives of
the same events. Side-by-side comparisons make THAT very clear as
well.
Post by Tommi Leino
The Evangelists must have used their artistic
freedom when converting the far-branching spoken account,
that must have been in wide circulation during the time period,
to a concise written text.
Not true. There is no reason to ASSUME that any "artistic freedom"
was added, nor that they didn't personally SEE what they recorded.
Post by Tommi Leino
And the job only becomes harder when
the task is to filter through a rich of metaphysical metaphors
mingled with spirited exaggerations of genuine or make-believe
events.
Who says these things are there at all? Some language is metaphoric,
to be sure, but there is no reason at all to believe there are any "
spirited exaggerations of genuine or make-believe events."

Perhaps it would help if you actually READ the book with an open mind?
Post by Tommi Leino
As a topping for the cake of disbelief comes the modern
assumption that the original Gospels were left anonymous[1],
and that the texts have been "corrected" later on in the
history,
And why would you ASSUME such a thing? Please don't tell me you
should do such a thing because wikipedia says so. ANYONE can put
ANYTHING on wikipedia, and anyone else can change it. The heads of
wikipedia themselves will be the first to tell you (as they have on
public radio) not to use wikipedia as any kind of "authorative source.
Post by Tommi Leino
and that the apocryphal texts give ever wider scope of
who Jesus really was, not to speak of that the apocryphal texts
in some cases may seem to be even more authentic than the
anonymous, possibly heavily controlled canonical texts are.
The Apocrypha was written before Jesus was born. No, they don't give
any "wider scope" of who Jesus really was.

IF you are talking about the gnostic gospels, most were written
centuries after Jesus was crucified by people who never saw Him or
knew Him. Others are flat-out-forgeries.
Post by Tommi Leino
Whether or not the significance or validity of the concerns
presented herein is enough to discredit the absolute
authenticity of the written Word in the Gospels for the average
rational mind, the question is still presented. What if
historical Jesus never existed? What if there is no life after
death? What then, is the value of Jesus?
Perhaps you should READ the book before making such statements.

And if there is no life after death? The Christian life iin itself is
a VERY rich and rewarding life, and we are still ahead.
Post by Tommi Leino
Some say that it is a core part of being Christian to have an
absolute faith on the Gospels and that such a question is not to
be even contemplated on.
I have never heard of any Christian ever saying any such thing. I
think you are making a strawman argument.
Post by Tommi Leino
But isn't this kind of reasoning in
odds with the figure of Jesus in the Gospels, who in many
occasions reproached scholars of mere written word and called us
to exceed them in righteousness[2]?
It does indeed contradict the Bible. The Bible says:

1 Thess 5:20-22
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every
form of evil.
NKJV

Refusing to examine things would be contradictory to that command.
Post by Tommi Leino
On the contrary, would it be acceptable if we would prepare the
way for letting the mass of unbelieving atheists understand the
core message of Jesus if we take the message out of its much
boasted and unverifiable supernatural context and save the
supernatural aspect and related issues for contemplation only
within the circles of so called "born-again Christians," so that
the newcomers, now with proper feasibility of assimilating the
core message could also have a possibility for being changed
from within and hence have the ability to join the inner circles
of Christians as true followers of Jesus?
Are you saying we should "dumb down" the message, take out everything
that is not "politically correct" and leave virtually nothing, just to
make the atheists happy? That is not what Jesus did. It is not what
Paul did. It was not done by ANY Christians recorded in the first
century Church.
Post by Tommi Leino
If Christianity wishes to stand the test of time, now upon the
advent of literate, enlightened people, a change of approach in
our missionary work is in hot demand.
SOME "enlightened people!!!!!!!" There is more murder, more rape,
more theft, more self-demolition than ever before in history! We
cannot just go to the airport and get on a plane. . .we must be
scanned, searched, and all of our luggage searched too!

No, we are NOT very "enlightened.

I suspect we are not all that more literate than we were a hundred
years ago either! Our drop-out rates in schools reflect that, imho.
Post by Tommi Leino
During the history each of
the generations and each of the movements within the realm of
Christianity have had their own individual approaches that fit
the surrounding context of history.
Some so-called "Christian religons" have. There has been however, a
core-group of Christians who have merely taught what the Bible teaches
and have NOT forced their own "approaches" into their ministries.
Post by Tommi Leino
Why couldn't we also change
the emphasis of our preaching, for being more rationally
acceptable for the people of our time?
There is nothing irrational about becoming a Christian the Biblical
way or living the Christian life the Biblical way. There will always
be just as there were in the Bible, scoffers and unbelievers.
Christianity is not about "becoming saleable." It is about being
FAITHFUL to the God Whom we serve.
Post by Tommi Leino
It would be a radical change, obviously,
I don't know where you worship, if you worship at all.

I DO know many many congregations who preach the message of the Bible
AS THE BIBLE GIVES IT, and that the message is not irrational or based
on "blind" faith, but is based on SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE, as scripture
says.
Post by Tommi Leino
but so was the advent of technological
advances to past generations and yet it seems that the
Christianity is still essentially trusting on Middle Ageish
reasoning when presented with questions about the validity of
our message.
Not at all. Sin is still sin. Adultery is still adultery. Murder is
still murder. Look around you. Single Parents with children who are
VERY unbalanced in their outlooks (boys with NO good male role models,
girls with NO good female role models, kids farmed out to "day care
centers" where they are cared for like cattle or sheep, not learning
how to bond to or trust anyone).

Of course the Bible talks about MARRIED parents and PARENTS raising
their children. Our "enlightened" society is filling up with children
who have little or no conscience, have no sense of loyalty to anyone,
poor work ethics, MANY of whom are completely with no moral character,
etc. SOME "enlightened" society!
Post by Tommi Leino
What is the core message, or teaching of Jesus, when taken out
of the supernatural context?
What is electricity when taken out of the context of electrons?

Why do you have such difficulty accepting that the supernatural
exists?
Post by Tommi Leino
The Sermon on the Mount, for
instance, in Matthew's Gospel, describes in very down-to-earth
terms what kind of state of mind is expected of his followers
and none of the expectations explicitly demand fidelity to or
outright worship of a supernatural being and all the
supernatural references therein can be well taken in a
metaphorical sense.
LOL! Of course it ASSUMES that God is God and is speaking to people
who BELIEVE in God already.
Post by Tommi Leino
Even with such drastic ripping of the
supernatural layer, the outcome well can lead to a more direct
relationship with God through this rational approach in
comparison to a Church-led submission to time-tested forms that
could well turn to simple idol-worship of Jesus[3], instead of
actually hearing and acting upon the wisdom inherent in the
written teachings of Jesus.
If you just tear out the parts you don't like, there IS no wisdom
left.

I <snipped the rest> because I have to take a pie out of the oven (the
first pie I have made in over 50 years!) It is a big experiment and I
don't want to mess it up.

I am curious about your responses to the things I have responded to
though, and will subscribe to this group for a while to see if you do
respond.

I am curious too to know if you are an atheist yourself, an agnostic,
or if you consider yourself to be a Christian. If the last, what KIND
of church you worship with.

in the Name of Jesus,
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