"original sin" fact or false doctrine? email me!

[d***@charter.net]

Hello everyone,
Original sin has been a subject that has been argued for 100's of
years with those who believe in it still struggling to find adequate
answers. They struggle answering the question about "what happens to
babies when they die, whether before birth or after?"
The question is "when is sin imputed (or placed) onto us as
individuals by God the Father?"
If we can simply define sin and what makes an individual a
sinner, then we can understand the arguments around the topic of
"original sin."
"Sin" is the transgression of God's law (I John 3:4) whether the
individual knows that he has done it or not. Such was the case with
the apostle Paul (Romans 7:7-12). He was "without the law once" that
is, when he was a baby and then growing up as a very young child. As
he grew older he began to start understanding all of God's law, then
he understood what laws he had been violating, such as covetousness.
We are not born in sin by any means. We are made up of "body,
soul and spirit" (I Thess.5:23). The words soul and spirit are used
interchangeably in the scriptures. Our physical body comes from our
parents and our spirit comes from God. The fleshly body is made up
with the chromosomes we get from our parents, and at conception, God
gives that body a spirit.
The only way a body has life is when it has a spirit. "The body
without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26). God is the Father of our
spirit (Hebrews 12:9) and He forms the spirit of man within him
(Zechariah 12:1). Therefore, our spirit comes from God who gave it to
us as individuals (Ecclesiastes 12:7) and there is no sin with the
Divine Father to be imputed on our account to mar our soul. Thus our
sin is not inherited from our Holy God.
Sin is not inherited from our parents neither from Adam. This
idea comes from a misunderstanding of "Romans 5:12" and "Psalm 51:5."
In Romans 5:12, Paul pointed out that when Adam sinned, that this is
when sin first entered into the world and at that time there was no
other human beings but Eve. He did not say that "sin entered into or
would be inherited by every human being. He pointed out that the
result and consequences of Adam's sin was that physical death would
pass upon every living person. Psalm 51:5 has been improperly
translated in the newer Bible versions just to further the false idea
of being born in sin. The KJV translates the verse this way "Behold,
I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Two
phrases must be interpreted correctly. Many agree that the first
phrase is David's view of all the sins that have shaped his life. In
the second phrase, we need to understand whose sin is implied---
David's or his mother's. If I said, "Behold, I broke the window and
in anger did my mother whip me." Whose anger is it? Mine or my
mothers? Or, "Behold, I wrecked my Dad's truck, and in anger did he
discipline me." Whose anger is implied? My dads. Thus, David is not
saying he was born with inherited sin, but that his mother was in sin
when she conceived him. What sin was she in you ask? David didn't tell
us. He said, "in sin did my mother conceive me."
Job 14:1 says, "Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and
full of trouble." He did not say, "full of sin" but "full of
trouble." Also, he said, "Man" and not "Babies."
Furthermore, The Bible says, "The soul that sinneth it shall
die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall
the father bear the iniquity of the son the righteousness of the
righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be
upon him." (Ezekiel 18:20). An individual becomes a sinner when he/
she transgresses the law of God (I John 3:4), that is when we
knowingly or unknowingly break a commandment of God. Babies are not
born in sin, nor do they inherit sin from their parents or Adam. The
only time sin enters into their life is when they grow older and break
God's commandments (I John 3:4).
We will be held accountable for our own sins now and at the
judgment, not for our parents or even Adams. The Bible says, "For we
must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that EVERYONE may
receive the things done in his body, according to that HE hath done,
whether it be good or evil." (2 Corinthians 5:10).
Also in Romans 14:12, "So that EVERYONE of us shall give account of
HIMSELF to God."
Those who teach or have taught that sin is inherited will be held
accountable for all the lives they have destroyed through the
centuries (James 3:1; 1 Timothy 4:16; Ezekiel 33:4-6).

For saving truth,
email your response with your scriptures explained.

[b***@dodo.com.au]

Post by d***@charter.net
Hello everyone,
Original sin has been a subject that has been argued for 100's of
years with those who believe in it still struggling to find adequate
answers. They struggle answering the question about "what happens to
babies when they die, whether before birth or after?"
The question is "when is sin imputed (or placed) onto us as
individuals by God the Father?"
If we can simply define sin and what makes an individual a
sinner, then we can understand the arguments around the topic of
"original sin."
"Sin" is the transgression of God's law (I John 3:4) whether the
individual knows that he has done it or not. Such was the case with
the apostle Paul (Romans 7:7-12). He was "without the law once" that
is, when he was a baby and then growing up as a very young child. As
he grew older he began to start understanding all of God's law, then
he understood what laws he had been violating, such as covetousness.
We are not born in sin by any means. We are made up of "body,
soul and spirit" (I Thess.5:23). The words soul and spirit are used
interchangeably in the scriptures. Our physical body comes from our
parents and our spirit comes from God. The fleshly body is made up
with the chromosomes we get from our parents, and at conception, God
gives that body a spirit.
The only way a body has life is when it has a spirit. "The body
without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26). God is the Father of our
spirit (Hebrews 12:9) and He forms the spirit of man within him
(Zechariah 12:1). Therefore, our spirit comes from God who gave it to
us as individuals (Ecclesiastes 12:7) and there is no sin with the
Divine Father to be imputed on our account to mar our soul. Thus our
sin is not inherited from our Holy God.
Sin is not inherited from our parents neither from Adam. This
idea comes from a misunderstanding of "Romans 5:12" and "Psalm 51:5."
In Romans 5:12, Paul pointed out that when Adam sinned, that this is
when sin first entered into the world and at that time there was no
other human beings but Eve. He did not say that "sin entered into or
would be inherited by every human being. He pointed out that the
result and consequences of Adam's sin was that physical death would
pass upon every living person. Psalm 51:5 has been improperly
translated in the newer Bible versions just to further the false idea
of being born in sin. The KJV translates the verse this way "Behold,
I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Two
phrases must be interpreted correctly. Many agree that the first
phrase is David's view of all the sins that have shaped his life. In
the second phrase, we need to understand whose sin is implied---
David's or his mother's. If I said, "Behold, I broke the window and
in anger did my mother whip me." Whose anger is it? Mine or my
mothers? Or, "Behold, I wrecked my Dad's truck, and in anger did he
discipline me." Whose anger is implied? My dads. Thus, David is not
saying he was born with inherited sin, but that his mother was in sin
when she conceived him. What sin was she in you ask? David didn't tell
us. He said, "in sin did my mother conceive me."
Job 14:1 says, "Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and
full of trouble." He did not say, "full of sin" but "full of
trouble." Also, he said, "Man" and not "Babies."
Furthermore, The Bible says, "The soul that sinneth it shall
die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father; neither shall
the father bear the iniquity of the son the righteousness of the
righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be
upon him." (Ezekiel 18:20). An individual becomes a sinner when he/
she transgresses the law of God (I John 3:4), that is when we
knowingly or unknowingly break a commandment of God. Babies are not
born in sin, nor do they inherit sin from their parents or Adam. The
only time sin enters into their life is when they grow older and break
God's commandments (I John 3:4).
We will be held accountable for our own sins now and at the
judgment, not for our parents or even Adams. The Bible says, "For we
must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that EVERYONE may
receive the things done in his body, according to that HE hath done,
whether it be good or evil." (2 Corinthians 5:10).
Also in Romans 14:12, "So that EVERYONE of us shall give account of
HIMSELF to God."
Those who teach or have taught that sin is inherited will be held
accountable for all the lives they have destroyed through the
centuries (James 3:1; 1 Timothy 4:16; Ezekiel 33:4-6).
For saving truth,
email your response with your scriptures explained.

I'll simply quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

"The reality of sin

386 Sin is present in human history; any attempt to ignore it or to
give this dark reality other names would be futile. To try to
understand what sin is, one must first recognise the profound relation
of man to God, for only in this relationship is the evil of sin
unmasked in its true identity as humanity's rejection of God and
opposition to him, even as it continues to weight heavy on human life
and history.

387 Only the light of divine Revelation clarifies the reality of sin
and particularly of the sin committed at mankind's origins. WIthout
the knowledge Revelation gives of God we cannot recognise sin clearly
and are tempted to explain it as merely a developmental flaw, a
psychological weakness, a mistake, or the necessary consequences of an
inadequate social structure etc. Only in the knowledge of God's plan
for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God
gives to created persons so that they are capable of loving him and
loving one another.

Original Sin - an essential truth of the faith

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also
illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old
Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in
the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could
not grasp this story's ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the
light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We must know
Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of
sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ came to 'convict
the world concerning sin', by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

389 The doctine of original sin is, so to speak, the 'reverse side' of
the Good News that Jesus is the Saviour of all men, that all need
salvation, and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The
Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot
tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the
mystery of Christ.

How to read the account of the Fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but
affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of
history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the
whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely
committed by our first parents."

************************************

In other words, somehow we've all been affected by that original
mistake, and we have a natural tendency both to reject and disobey
God. There is of course the added influence of the devil. Had I
continued quoting from the Catechism, the very next section had to do
with the fall of the angels, which was a more outright rebellion, and
their decision is irrevocable - that is, no salvation will be given
for them.

We are not judged however because of a "sinful nature". We are judged
on what we do, say and think. In other words, it takes action on our
part to justify being condemned. A baby has hardly the opportunity or
ability to do anything that would be regarded as sinful. If it seems
to be self centred in its demands on its mother, then it was God who
designed that part of its character. Even Christ probably howled for
his mother's milk, a certain Christmas Carol notwithstanding.

However baptising babies indicates a wish on the part of the parents
that their child should be a part of the Christian community. How
effective that will be depends on the actual example set by the
parents themselves, the effectiveness of the Christian community and
the child's own decisions as it grows older.

Parents who do not belong to a Christian community, and who do not
baptise their children, have almost certainly condemned their child
along with themselves, because as the child grows older, it will have
to face the lure of the world without spiritual support and without
even knowing there is an evil spirit bent on its destruction.
Occasionally a child will turn to God despite a completely unchristian
background. But they are the exception rather than the rule.

I remember some years ago seeing the results of a survey done in the
USA. According to the survey, if both parents were committed
Christians, 85% of children became Christians. If dad alone, 55%. If
mum alone, 15%. If neither, 5%. Assuming the survey was accurate,
it indicates two things - the importance of parental example, and also
the moral leadership of the male. If he fails, the children will also
probably fail, at least in the moral arena.

[B.G. Kent]

Original "mistake" ? hmmmmm we believed that we were not all ONE...that
there were such things as "better than" "worse than" in humanity..we
compared ourselves with OURSELVES..thinking we were separate. We believed
in a concept of being "away from God"...and fear was born.
I don't know about the "doctrine" you wish for....but this is what I
believe.

Bren