Discussion:
Oh and about Hallowe'en
(too old to reply)
Steve Hayes
2006-08-28 02:31:12 UTC
Permalink
B- Heh...no far from it ....try living the life and not just reading about
it. I do.
What, the life of new-fangled "old country customs" that you've just made up?
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Steve Hayes
2006-08-29 03:35:08 UTC
Permalink
B- Heh...no far from it ....try living the life and not just reading about
it. I do.
What, the life of new-fangled "old country customs" that you've just made up?
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
B.G. Kent
2006-08-29 03:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
B- Heh...no far from it ....try living the life and not just reading about
it. I do.
What, the life of new-fangled "old country customs" that you've just made up?
You don't know me hon. You do read a lot though..that's for sure.

Blessings
Bren
Jani
2006-08-29 03:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
B- Heh...no far from it ....try living the life and not just reading about
it. I do.
What, the life of new-fangled "old country customs" that you've just made
up?
Investigating the history and development of those which *aren't* made up,
and tracing the actual syncretism of Christianity with pre-Christian faiths,
is a lot more interesting and rewarding, to my mind. But it's always
entertaining to watch people insisting that their customs are "old" whilst
simultaneously refusing to look at any evidence as to whether they actually
are or not ;)

Jani
Steve Hayes
2006-09-05 01:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
Post by Steve Hayes
B- Heh...no far from it ....try living the life and not just reading about
it. I do.
What, the life of new-fangled "old country customs" that you've just made
up?
Investigating the history and development of those which *aren't* made up,
and tracing the actual syncretism of Christianity with pre-Christian faiths,
is a lot more interesting and rewarding, to my mind. But it's always
entertaining to watch people insisting that their customs are "old" whilst
simultaneously refusing to look at any evidence as to whether they actually
are or not ;)
The trouble is that the number of people who want to investigate the actual
historical interactions of religions seems to be far smaller than the number
who like to compare newfangled creations that people have just sucked out of
their thumbs -- witness the popularity of "The da Vinci code". The other is
indeed far more interesting, but separating the wheat from the chaff is
difficult.

Hallowe'en isn't a particularly good example, though. But still, here's
something I wrote about it before. Perhaps I can toss it into the pot. But you
might ciome up with some more interesting examples.

This is the time of year when I read all kinds of things about
Halloween. It comes up on mailing lists, various BBS conferences,
newsgroups and the "coinherence" mailing list for discussing the
works of Charles Williams (where his book "All Hallows Eve" has
been discussed). Sop perhaps it is worth repeating this.

Some Christians think Halloween is wicked because it's "pagan".
Some pagans get resentful of Christians for "stealing" their
festival. People seem to get all worked up about it.

Most of this I observe as an outsider. As far as I can tell,
Halloween is an American cultural festival, which is interpreted
in various ways by different people. I've had no firsthand
experience of it from that point of view. I used to be an
Anglican a long time ago, and back in those days Halloween was
observed with a "first evensong" for All Saints Day, which was
kept with an Octave, but when Vatican II dropped the Octave, the
Anglicans followed suit (when Rome turns, we all turn) and
observance of it seemed to die out among most Anglicans, and it
passed unnoticed.

Now I'm an Orthodox Christian, and our Halloween is the Saturday
after Pentecost, so the 31st October isn't of much interest, as
it's a purely Western phenomenon.

But since there are so many comments and arguments and dis-
cussions and observations, here's my 2c worth, as a very detached
outsider.

Here in South Africa, as I said, Halloween isn't a big deal at
all. The newspapers made a far bigger fuss about Diwali
(Deepavali), the Hindu festival of lights, symbolising the tri-
umph of good over evil. There are pictures of children holding
lighted lamps and things like that. South Africa has more Hindus
than Irish, perhaps, so it's certainly a more prominent festival
here than Halloween. Halloween doesn't go entirely unnoticed,
however - there were a few advertisements for Halloween parties
in the newspapers, but they would be purely adult affairs. There
are no customs of children going around soliciting gifts or
anything like that, as there seem to be in America. If any kids
did that here they'd be greeted with blank incomprehension, and
told not to be cheeky, or they'd be street kids who do that all
the year round.

I believe the American celebrations of Halloween developed from
Irish immigrants, and that before it was exported, it was a more-
or-less uniquely Irish thing.

I read a very interesting book about it, though - "The Stations
of the Sun" by Ronald Hutton (Oxford University Press, Oxford,
1996). Hutton is a British historian, and his book is a very
well-researched study of seasonal festivals in Britain. Some of
his observations may be of interest to those who get their
knickers in a knot over Halloween -- either pagans who think
Christians "stole" it, or Christians who think it must be
"demonic".

"At the end of the nineteenth century , two distinguished
academics, one at Oxford and the other at Cambridge, made
enduring contributions to the popular conception of Samhain. The
former was the philologist Sir John Rhys, who suggested that it
had been the 'Celtic' New Year.... Rhys's theory was further
popularized by the Cambridge scholar, Sir James Frazer. At times
the latter did admit that the evidence for it was inconclusive,
but at others he threw this caution overboard and employed it to
support an idea of his own: that Samhain had been the pagan
Celtic feast of the dead. He reached this belief by the simple
process of arguing back from a fact, that 1 and 2 November had
been dedicated to that purpose by the medieval Christian Church,
from which it could be surmised that this had been a Chris-
tianization of a pre-existing festival. He admitted, by
implication, that there was in fact no actual record of such a
festival, but inferred the former existence of one from a number
of different propositions: that the Church had taken over other
pagan holy days, that 'many' cultures have annual ceremonies to
honour their dead, 'commonly' at the opening of the year, and
that (of course) 1 November had been the Celtic New Year. He
pointed out that although the feast of All Saints or All Hallows
had been formally instituted across most of north-west Europe by
the emperor Louis the Pius in 835, on the prompting of Pope
Gregory IV, it had already existed, on its later date of 1
November, in England at the time of Bede. He suggested that the
pope and emperor had, therefore, merely ratified an existing
religious practice based upon that of the ancient Celts.

"The story is, in fact, more complicated. By the mid-fourth
century Christians in the Mediterranean world were keeping a
feast in honour of all those who had been martyred under the
pagan emperors; it is mentioned in the _Carmina Nisibena_ of St
Ephraem, who died in about 373, as being held on 13 May. During
the fifth century divergent practices sprang up, the Syrian
churches holding the festival in Easter Week, and those of the
Greek world preferring the Sunday after Pentecost. That of Rome,
however, preferred to keep the May date, and Pope Boniface IV
formally endorsed it in the year 609. By 800 churches in England
and Germany, which were in touch with each other, were
celebrating a festival dedicated to all saints upon 1 November
instead. The oldest text of Bede's Martyrology, from the eighth
century, does not include it, but the recensions at the end of
the century do. Charlemagne's favourite churchman Alcuin was
keeping it by then, as were also his friend Arno, bishop of
Salzburg, and a church in Bavaria. Pope Gregory, therefore, was
endorsing and adopting a practice which had begun in northern
Europe. It had not, however, started in Ireland, where the
_Felire_ of Oengus and the _Martyrology of Tallaght_ prove that
the early medieval churches celebrated the feast of All Saints
upon 20 April. This makes nonsense of Frazer's notion that the
November date was chosen because of 'Celtic' influence: rather,
both 'Celtic' Europe and Rome followed a Germanic idea...."

For what it's worth, the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian
Church notes that Pope Gregory III of Rome (d. 741) dedicated a
chapel in the basilica of St Peter to "All the saints", and
Gregory IV ordered its universal observance. Sixtus IV (d. 1484)
added an Octave, which was suppressed in 1955.

The idea that Christians "stole" it, therefore, seems pretty far-
fetched.

What about the accusation by some that it is "satanic",
"demonic", or "evil"?

Well, I've never seen it in action, but from reading descriptions
of it, and seeing films about it, the idea of kids going around
saying "give us sweets or we'll do something nasty to you" sounds
a bit like a juvenile protection racket to me, and that is
potentially, if not actually, evil. It's only one step from that
to going round to shop keepers with a gun and saying "give us X,
and we'll protect you from Y".

Now I've been told by many Americans that it is not like that at
all, and that it is all harmless fun, so I must have been misled
by the films and the books I've read. But the idea still makes me
a bit uneasy. I'm glad there was no tradition of that sort here
when my kids were growing up. And I suspect that if they'd tried
it in our neighbourhood the neighbours would have been astounded
at the cheek of it, and probably offended when they had second
thoughts. But that's just our culture.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
B.G. Kent
2006-09-06 03:03:45 UTC
Permalink
and everything you have written Stephen ....I've read as well. I also have
the experience of living a Wiccan life in North America which is somewhat
less literal than the British take on Wicca. NOw had you actually
waited...and allowed me to talk more on it..instead of jumping to
conclusions about what you think I know or don't know and then insulting
me...it would have been more of an enjoyable repast I would think.

I don't generally keep up ongoing conversations with people who insult
me....hence my avoidance of certain people on this newsgroup. I don't see
the point...I'd rather dust off my sandals and carry on.

Blessings
Bren
suneejan
2006-09-07 02:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
suneejan
2006-09-07 03:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
B.G. Kent
2006-09-09 05:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
what evil? witches use magick (God energy to heal ) ghosts are spirits
that have not gone into the light, and goblins well....I've never met one.
I honour my passed over ancestors on this night....

Where is the evil?

I.M.O

Bren
Chad Dore
2006-09-09 05:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
You're either a troll or a bona fide lunatic. People who talk like this
are on par with those who think 'Dungeons and Dragons' or 'Lord of the
Rings' represent a true reality, ie. children 5 and below.
suneejan
2006-09-11 01:23:52 UTC
Permalink
I'm not a troll or a lunatic but will tell people about Halloween on
what it represents.
Post by Chad Dore
Post by suneejan
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
You're either a troll or a bona fide lunatic. People who talk like this
are on par with those who think 'Dungeons and Dragons' or 'Lord of the
Rings' represent a true reality, ie. children 5 and below.
suneejan
2006-09-11 01:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Witches do not use God's energy to heal people. There are some witches
that does some healing but this is not from God. This kind of healing
power is an enticement to go furthur and deeper into witchcraft. This
is what happened to a person I know. Christians are suppose to stay
away from witchcraft,nediums, spiritists.etc. look at Deutoronomy 18:
9-12.

On Halloween, there are some children killed in satanic rituals.
Children do dress up as devils and witches. They represent evil not
God's love. 1 Thess 5:22 Stay away from all kinds of evil!!!!
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
what evil? witches use magick (God energy to heal ) ghosts are spirits
that have not gone into the light, and goblins well....I've never met one.
I honour my passed over ancestors on this night....
Where is the evil?
I.M.O
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-09-11 01:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chad Dore
Post by suneejan
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
You're either a troll or a bona fide lunatic. People who talk like this
are on par with those who think 'Dungeons and Dragons' or 'Lord of the
Rings' represent a true reality, ie. children 5 and below.
B - No need to insult. She is a literalist and there are a lot of them out
there. I just don't like her speaking for all Christians...I find it
insensitive and rather rude...but I don't think anyone deserves ad
hominems thrown at them.

Blessings
Bren
Burkladies
2006-09-12 00:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Suneejan, you have no clue what real witches do. Are you a Jehovah's
witness? You sound like one, which is not a compliment.
Halloween is my own new year, Samhain. Even christians can do what
they wish during holidays. Im christian and do not fear your curse.

Blessed be, Lady
Post by suneejan
I'm not a troll or a lunatic but will tell people about Halloween on
what it represents.
Post by Chad Dore
Post by suneejan
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
You're either a troll or a bona fide lunatic. People who talk like this
are on par with those who think 'Dungeons and Dragons' or 'Lord of the
Rings' represent a true reality, ie. children 5 and below.
B.G. Kent
2006-09-12 00:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
I'm not a troll or a lunatic but will tell people about Halloween on
what it represents.
Suneejan....Well you have it wrong. It is best that you research before
you speak on a cultural Holiday. This has nothing to do with evil..but the
end of the years cycle which is death. In many faiths death is not
something to be feared...but just a part of life and to be honoured as
well. The place of change...from end of one year to new...is small..and in
this change the veil is thin and the dead walk amongst the living for a
time. This is Connected to the Celts and part of the old way. Conservative
Christianity has lied about this holiday for years and it should stop.

I.M.E.

thanks
Bren
suneejan
2006-09-12 00:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Bren , you find it insentive and rude because what is qouted from the
scripture does not follow your beliefs. Halloween is a dangerous
holiday especially for the children.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Chad Dore
Post by suneejan
Hi
I read your comments with great interest. As a born again Christian, I
consider Halloween as a holliday where evil is worshiped. Look at the
costumes...witches, ghost, goblins,etc. As Christians we should stay
away from this Holiday, loook at verse 1 Thess. 5:22 Stay away from all
forms of evil.
You're either a troll or a bona fide lunatic. People who talk like this
are on par with those who think 'Dungeons and Dragons' or 'Lord of the
Rings' represent a true reality, ie. children 5 and below.
B - No need to insult. She is a literalist and there are a lot of them out
there. I just don't like her speaking for all Christians...I find it
insensitive and rather rude...but I don't think anyone deserves ad
hominems thrown at them.
B.G. Kent
2006-09-12 00:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Witches do not use God's energy to heal people.
B - How many witches do you know Suneejan and have you studied it or only
heard lies from other people?



There are some witches
Post by suneejan
that does some healing but this is not from God.
B - in my opinion...all healing comes from God. How could "good" not come
from God?


This kind of healing
Post by suneejan
power is an enticement to go furthur and deeper into witchcraft.
B - please prove.


This
Post by suneejan
is what happened to a person I know. Christians are suppose to stay
9-12.
B - Why? why do you believe that?
Post by suneejan
On Halloween, there are some children killed in satanic rituals.
B - please site real sources.
Post by suneejan
Children do dress up as devils and witches. They represent evil not
God's love. 1 Thess 5:22 Stay away from all kinds of evil!!!!
B - They represent ...to most children these days...having fun. To a pagan
person they represent many many more things than that.
As to the last line...what does that have to do with God?


You might want to read up on this:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_rep03.htm



Bren
ps. oh..and when is my money arriving?
B.G. Kent
2006-09-13 02:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Bren , you find it insentive and rude because what is qouted from the
scripture does not follow your beliefs. Halloween is a dangerous
holiday especially for the children.
B - No. I find it insensitve and rude because you are quoting it AS TRUTH
when you cannot prove it. Halloween, Christmas....both these holidays can
be dangerous to children....fire crackers blowing off fingers, getting
Christmas tree (a pagan symbol by the way )ornaments lodged in throats
etc. You are putting down a Celtic ancestral holiday that many still
follow...you are putting down some of my old country ways....and that is
rude in my beliefs.

Bren
p.s are you still not going to give me money? after I reminded you of that
Bible quote about giving? Do you pick and choose which to follow?
B.G. Kent
2006-09-13 02:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burkladies
Suneejan, you have no clue what real witches do. Are you a Jehovah's
witness? You sound like one, which is not a compliment.
Halloween is my own new year, Samhain. Even christians can do what
they wish during holidays. Im christian and do not fear your curse.
Blessed be, Lady
Hey there Burkladies, I don't believe she has ever met a real witch
personally and that she has been brainwashed by Hollywood and her Pastor
perhaps. This is what irks me....people spreading lies about a path,or way
or faith without really understanding it out of pure bigotry. Some of them
say "I used to be into witchcraft" or "I knew someone who used to be in
witchcraft"....which shows they are using dabblers as an example or
prejudicing every witch on the basis of one they met. Meet someone who has
been in it for years and years...decades even....learn from un-biased
sources...stop the insanity. Some people out there who have swallowed the
lies about witchcraft and Wicca have thought it "fun" to create violence,
focus on evil, and get into the dark side of humanity in an unbalanced
way.....Pagans...real pagans have to pay the price for their disrespect.
If people could wake up from their slumber and take learning into their
own hands and stop believing the lies told about other faiths and
ways...we'd have much less lies and hate in the world I reckon.

I.M.O
Blessings
Bren
and a blessed Samhain to you Burkladies.
suneejan
2006-09-13 02:58:41 UTC
Permalink
How am I cursing you. ? I just remind people to stay away from all
forms of evil
1 Thess 5:22,
Post by Burkladies
Suneejan, you have no clue what real witches do. Are you a Jehovah's
witness? You sound like one, which is not a compliment.
Halloween is my own new year, Samhain. Even christians can do what
they wish during holidays. Im christian and do not fear your curse.
Jani
2006-09-13 02:58:44 UTC
Permalink
"Steve Hayes" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:_j4Lg.837$***@trndny02...

[]
Post by Steve Hayes
The trouble is that the number of people who want to investigate the
actual
historical interactions of religions seems to be far smaller than the
number
who like to compare newfangled creations that people have just sucked out
of
their thumbs -- witness the popularity of "The da Vinci code". The other
is
indeed far more interesting, but separating the wheat from the chaff is
difficult.
Partly because, at least in the UK, it is very hard to separate the wheat
from the wheat. Many of the so-called 'pagan traditions' have been
'christian traditions' for so long that in terms of christian folk culture,
if not original religious praxis, it's just not realistic to call them
"pagan".
Post by Steve Hayes
Hallowe'en isn't a particularly good example, though. But still, here's
something I wrote about it before. Perhaps I can toss it into the pot. But
you
might ciome up with some more interesting examples.
[]

Very informative, thank you :)

Hallowe'en in the modern sense is not an "olde" festival in my area of
Britain, possibly because it was superseded by "Plot Night", which took
place at the same time of year, involved bonfires, the burning of effigies
and ritual consumption of special foods, etc, etc - but it commemorated a
*political* event. The first time I encountered anything resembling the
modern Hallowe'en as a major social event was in Ireland in the 70s - and of
course, I had to stop and think for a minute why a Catholic country wouldn't
have "Plot Night" as their main mid-autumn festival. Very much a "d'uh"
moment, there ;)

The Irish - American - British Hallowe'en, with trick-or-treat and a general
party atmosphere, is fairly recent - probably within the last thirty
years? - which is about the same period over which neopaganism got rather
excitable and high-profile.

Now, what I find much more interesting, is the odd bits of pre-christian
folklore which have become adopted by Christianity in rural areas, and are
hotly defended by Christians as being "legitimately" Christian *now*, even
if they weren't before. Well-dressing, Rose Queen festivals, and so on. If
you have a Christian tradition which has been there for several centuries,
and all the dedications and prayers are to the Christian god, by Christian
clergy, then I find it mildly annoying for neopagans to come along and tell
the poor vicar that he's really praying to Horus or Cernunnos or (dear me)
Herne, who isn't even a deity.

But then, I'm a relativist, and it is a personal hobby-horse of mine. In
both senses :)

Jani
Jani
2006-09-13 02:58:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
I'm not a troll or a lunatic but will tell people about Halloween on
what it represents.
Suneejan....Well you have it wrong. It is best that you research before
you speak on a cultural Holiday.
But you're not presenting it as a cultural holiday, you're presenting it as
a religious festival.



This has nothing to do with evil..but the
Post by B.G. Kent
end of the years cycle which is death. In many faiths death is not
something to be feared...but just a part of life and to be honoured as
well.
That's quite true, but you're not speaking as a representative of those
faiths, but as an individual who is not a member of any of them.


The place of change...from end of one year to new...is small..and in
Post by B.G. Kent
this change the veil is thin and the dead walk amongst the living for a
time. This is Connected to the Celts and part of the old way. Conservative
Christianity has lied about this holiday for years and it should stop.
Newagers have lied about the ancient Celts and their supposed "old ways",
too. I wonder when that is going to stop?

Jani
Jani
2006-09-13 02:58:45 UTC
Permalink
"suneejan" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:IU2Ng.3878$***@trndny04...
[]
Post by suneejan
On Halloween, there are some children killed in satanic rituals.
Children are killed, unfortunately, on every day of the year. It has nothing
to do with the neopagan concept of Samhain, which is primarily a remembrance
and celebration of dead family members, or with the modern "party"
interpretation of Hallowe'en.
Post by suneejan
Children do dress up as devils and witches. They represent evil not
God's love. 1 Thess 5:22 Stay away from all kinds of evil!!!!
Yes, children dress up; so do adults. For most people, it's a fairly
meaningless use of costume - don't you put on different clothes for work,
church, dinner with the boss, and so on? Hallowe'en is just fancy dress,
same as you would have the "dame", the "principal boy", the "cinderella", in
a pantomime. And the clothes don't make the identity, otherwise any actor
who'd played a priest on stage would have a priest's knowledge and power.
That'd frighten a few actors I know ;)

Jani
B.G. Kent
2006-09-14 01:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
How am I cursing you. ? I just remind people to stay away from all
forms of evil
1 Thess 5:22,
B- Yes....you did....but you pointedly mentioned my Celtic ancestors
cultural holiday.

Bren
Post by suneejan
Post by Burkladies
Suneejan, you have no clue what real witches do. Are you a Jehovah's
Steve Hayes
2006-09-14 01:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
[]
Post by Steve Hayes
The trouble is that the number of people who want to investigate the
actual
historical interactions of religions seems to be far smaller than the
number
who like to compare newfangled creations that people have just sucked out
of
their thumbs -- witness the popularity of "The da Vinci code". The other
is
indeed far more interesting, but separating the wheat from the chaff is
difficult.
Partly because, at least in the UK, it is very hard to separate the wheat
from the wheat. Many of the so-called 'pagan traditions' have been
'christian traditions' for so long that in terms of christian folk culture,
if not original religious praxis, it's just not realistic to call them
"pagan".
True. There are some interesting examples in Charles Stewart's book "Demons
and the devil".

He did an anthropological study of a village on the Greek island of Naxos,
which bears out what some have said about the Great Tradition and the Little
Tradition. In the villages one finds belief in fairy-like creatures, whose
existence is attested in the region long before the coming of Christianity --
neraides, gorgones, stringles and many more, given the collective name of
"exotica".

Romantic folklorists of the 19th century believed that these were pagan
survivals, and indicated an underlying pagan substructure to the religion of
the area. The folklorists idea went along with the development of Hellenism as
a nationalist ideology, soon after Greece had won its independence from
Turkey, and can thus be compared to other religio-nationalist ideologies of
the period, such as Zionism, and even to more recent ones like Hindutva (which
is appearing almost as long after Indian independence as Hellenism developed
after Greek independence).

But Stewart found that it wasn't so. The fundamental worldview of the
islanders was Orthodox Christian, and had been since the fourth century.
Though the official theology of the Church did not approve of belief in the
exotica (angels are strictly good, demons, which are fallen angels, are
strictly evil -- there are no ambiguous fairy-like creatures in between), the
villagers interpreted the exotica in a fundamentally Orthodox Christian way.

Though in Naxos the actual process took place centuries ago, I found it
illuminating because in Africa it is taking place all around me, right now. If
you want a taste of it, read "The No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency" by Alexander
McCall Smith. It's fiction, but the setting is quite authentic.
Post by Jani
Hallowe'en in the modern sense is not an "olde" festival in my area of
Britain, possibly because it was superseded by "Plot Night", which took
place at the same time of year, involved bonfires, the burning of effigies
and ritual consumption of special foods, etc, etc - but it commemorated a
*political* event. The first time I encountered anything resembling the
modern Hallowe'en as a major social event was in Ireland in the 70s - and of
course, I had to stop and think for a minute why a Catholic country wouldn't
have "Plot Night" as their main mid-autumn festival. Very much a "d'uh"
moment, there ;)
The Irish - American - British Hallowe'en, with trick-or-treat and a general
party atmosphere, is fairly recent - probably within the last thirty
years? - which is about the same period over which neopaganism got rather
excitable and high-profile.
I know the American version is much older than that, because I read about it
in comic books as a child. I seem to remember reading in "Peanuts" a whole
series about a legend of a giant pumpkin (it was difficult for me to imagine,
because our pumpkins are flat and disc-like, and it was hard to imagine
carving a face in them).

But I also read about it in comics with the characters Nancy and Sluggo, who
were older than Peanuts. Thus was American culture disseminated
internationally in the days before TV!
Post by Jani
Now, what I find much more interesting, is the odd bits of pre-christian
folklore which have become adopted by Christianity in rural areas, and are
hotly defended by Christians as being "legitimately" Christian *now*, even
if they weren't before. Well-dressing, Rose Queen festivals, and so on. If
you have a Christian tradition which has been there for several centuries,
and all the dedications and prayers are to the Christian god, by Christian
clergy, then I find it mildly annoying for neopagans to come along and tell
the poor vicar that he's really praying to Horus or Cernunnos or (dear me)
Herne, who isn't even a deity.
There are parts of Zululand where the ashes of Ash Wednesday are regarded as
much more important by blacks than by whites, and are taken far more
seriously, because of significance that they had in old Zulu culture. I
suspect that about 2 centuries hence neopagans will be telling us that the
whole Ash Wednesday thing was "stolen" from the Zulus by the Christians, just
as they now allege that some things were "stolen" from the Celts.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
suneejan
2006-09-14 01:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jani
From my research this is what costumes actually represents...Sanhain
was a night of Demonic revelry and the only way frightened people could
protect themselves wasto masquerade as one of the demons to remain
unnoticed in order to prevent death or other ritualistic abuse.
1 Thess 5:22 says to abstain from all forms of evil. The halloween
costumes do represent evil and we as adults and children should not put
on these custumes.
I know that children are killed everyday. But on Halloween there are so
many that wind up missing, harmed and/or sacrificed to Satan!!!
[]
Post by suneejan
On Halloween, there are some children killed in satanic rituals.
Children are killed, unfortunately, on every day of the year. It has nothing
to do with the neopagan concept of Samhain, which is primarily a remembrance
and celebration of dead family members, or with the modern "party"
interpretation of Hallowe'en.
...
Yes, children dress up; so do adults. For most people, it's a fairly
meaningless use of costume - don't you put on different clothes for work,
church, dinner with the boss, and so on? Hallowe'en is just fancy dress,
same as you would have the "dame", the "principal boy", the "cinderella", in
a pantomime. And the clothes don't make the identity, otherwise any actor
who'd played a priest on stage would have a priest's knowledge and power.
That'd frighten a few actors I know ;)
Jani
2006-09-14 01:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Burkladies
Suneejan, you have no clue what real witches do. Are you a Jehovah's
witness? You sound like one, which is not a compliment.
Halloween is my own new year, Samhain. Even christians can do what
they wish during holidays. Im christian and do not fear your curse.
Hey there Burkladies, I don't believe she has ever met a real witch
personally and that she has been brainwashed by Hollywood and her Pastor
perhaps. This is what irks me....people spreading lies about a path,or way
or faith without really understanding it out of pure bigotry.
But this is exactly why Steve, and I, and many others, take issue with your
presentation of Christianity, neopaganism, and witchcraft. It may not be
"pure bigotry" on your part, but it certainly demonstrates a *huge* lack of
knowledge. The concept of a "witch" as a worker of kindly, inoffensive,
"white" magic is a very, very recent re-definition of the term, and one
which bears little resemblance to established definitions in English, or
even their parallels in other languages.

Suneejan isn't spreading "lies about a path or way or faith", because there
*is* no single "path or way or faith" in neopaganism which is labelled as
"witchcraft" and which consists solely of kindly, inoffensive, workers of
"white" magic. There are just a lot of people who want the frisson of that
slightly-naughty label, without any of the baggage that comes with it.

Some of them
Post by B.G. Kent
say "I used to be into witchcraft" or "I knew someone who used to be in
witchcraft"....which shows they are using dabblers as an example or
prejudicing every witch on the basis of one they met. Meet someone who has
been in it for years and years...decades even....learn from un-biased
sources...
And what "unbiased sources" would you suggest?

Some people out there who have swallowed the
Post by B.G. Kent
lies about witchcraft and Wicca have thought it "fun" to create violence,
focus on evil, and get into the dark side of humanity in an unbalanced
way.....Pagans...real pagans have to pay the price for their disrespect.
*blink* I assume you're trying to say that some Christians are influenced by
biased media presentations of neopaganism. Yes, that's true - but the
situation is not helped by silly people stamping their little feet and
demanding "I'm a witch and I want respect!" In fact, the wannabee witches do
*far* more damage than the genuine pagans, who are usually quite happy to
debate with christians in a reasonable and rational manner.
Post by B.G. Kent
If people could wake up from their slumber and take learning into their
own hands and stop believing the lies told about other faiths and
ways...we'd have much less lies and hate in the world I reckon.
Well, indeed. Personally, I have no time for those who deliberately tell
lies about "other faiths and ways", especially for their own aggrandissment.
Quite unacceptable, is it not?


Jani
Paul
2006-09-18 01:38:38 UTC
Permalink
<snip>>
Post by Jani
The Irish - American - British Hallowe'en, with trick-or-treat and a
general
party atmosphere, is fairly recent - probably within the last thirty
years? - which is about the same period over which neopaganism got rather
excitable and high-profile.
<snip>

It may be "fairly" recent, but more than 30 years, since we were doing
trick-or-treat and costumes when I was a boy, which was .... well, um,
let's just say rather more than 30 years ago..... :-)

In Christ,
Paul
Jani
2006-09-18 01:38:43 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jani
Partly because, at least in the UK, it is very hard to separate the wheat
from the wheat. Many of the so-called 'pagan traditions' have been
'christian traditions' for so long that in terms of christian folk
culture,
if not original religious praxis, it's just not realistic to call them
"pagan".
True. There are some interesting examples in Charles Stewart's book
"Demons
and the devil".
[]
Post by Steve Hayes
But Stewart found that it wasn't so. The fundamental worldview of the
islanders was Orthodox Christian, and had been since the fourth century.
Though the official theology of the Church did not approve of belief in
the
exotica (angels are strictly good, demons, which are fallen angels, are
strictly evil -- there are no ambiguous fairy-like creatures in between),
the
villagers interpreted the exotica in a fundamentally Orthodox Christian
way.
Fascinating. There's a somewhat similar process described in Hutton, where
some ritualistic practices (Morris? Horn dancing? I forget now) were hailed
as pagan survivals, but had actually been reconstructed as such by
nineteenth-century folklorists, in the way *they* thought such things might
have been done. There was actually no evidence of an unbroken line of pagan
practice which had somehow avoided Christian influence for centuries.
Post by Steve Hayes
Though in Naxos the actual process took place centuries ago, I found it
illuminating because in Africa it is taking place all around me, right
now. If
you want a taste of it, read "The No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency" by
Alexander
McCall Smith. It's fiction, but the setting is quite authentic.
*goes to look* Oh, that does look good. Thank you for the recommendation :)

[]
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jani
The Irish - American - British Hallowe'en, with trick-or-treat and a
general
party atmosphere, is fairly recent - probably within the last thirty
years? - which is about the same period over which neopaganism got rather
excitable and high-profile.
I know the American version is much older than that, because I read about
it
in comic books as a child.
Ah, sorry, I was unclear. I meant that *in the UK*, Hallowe'en has only
developed into an almost universal 'social event' (themed parties for
adults, trick-or-treat for children, etc) over the past few decades. And
this runs in parallel with the growth of neopaganism over the same period,
in which Samhain is part of the Year Wheel, yet the two trends are actually
fairly separate. I know plenty of Christians who celebrate the 'social'
Hallowe'en, but wouldn't dream of participating in Samhain, any more than
they would participate in Imbolc or Yule.


I seem to remember reading in "Peanuts" a whole
Post by Steve Hayes
series about a legend of a giant pumpkin (it was difficult for me to
imagine,
because our pumpkins are flat and disc-like, and it was hard to imagine
carving a face in them).
Nods ... even in the '60s, that line in Snoopy vs the Red Baron about "ask
the Great Pumpkin for a new battle plan" confused me. Brit kids were not
conversant with giant-pumpkin theology :)
Post by Steve Hayes
But I also read about it in comics with the characters Nancy and Sluggo,
who
were older than Peanuts. Thus was American culture disseminated
internationally in the days before TV!
Ah but with cable, satellite and the Net, they do it so much faster and more
efficiently these days!

[]

If
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Jani
you have a Christian tradition which has been there for several centuries,
and all the dedications and prayers are to the Christian god, by Christian
clergy, then I find it mildly annoying for neopagans to come along and
tell
the poor vicar that he's really praying to Horus or Cernunnos or (dear me)
Herne, who isn't even a deity.
There are parts of Zululand where the ashes of Ash Wednesday are regarded
as
much more important by blacks than by whites, and are taken far more
seriously, because of significance that they had in old Zulu culture.
That's interesting. I vaguely remember hearing about salt and ashes as
important in ritual, but I'm not sure now whether that was in Zulu culture
or not. I seem to recall it wasn't a Christian or Christianised practice,
though.

I
Post by Steve Hayes
suspect that about 2 centuries hence neopagans will be telling us that the
whole Ash Wednesday thing was "stolen" from the Zulus by the Christians,
just
as they now allege that some things were "stolen" from the Celts.
Well, sensible neopagans wouldn't, but then, they tend to be the ones who
actually study ancient Celtic history (what little there is of it).

Jani
Jani
2006-09-18 01:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Hi Jani
From my research this is what costumes actually represents...Sanhain
was a night of Demonic revelry and the only way frightened people could
protect themselves wasto masquerade as one of the demons to remain
unnoticed in order to prevent death or other ritualistic abuse.
Do you have a reference for this? It's quite possible there was a festival
of that type, on that date, with that name, somewhere in the world, but I'd
be interested in seeing actual evidence for it.
Post by suneejan
1 Thess 5:22 says to abstain from all forms of evil. The halloween
costumes do represent evil and we as adults and children should not put
on these custumes.
Obviously, it's purely a matter of personal choice whether one participates
in the 'social' aspect of Hallowe'en - if you feel uncomfortable about the
costume parties, then by all means avoid them.
Post by suneejan
I know that children are killed everyday. But on Halloween there are so
many that wind up missing, harmed and/or sacrificed to Satan!!!
Again, where is the evidence? Missing and murdered children end up in police
records and on the media - if this was a regular Hallowe'en occurrence, it
would be widely publicised.

In any case, neopagans don't have any connection with Satan; Satan is part
of the Christian worldview, and neopagans are not Christians.

Jani
Matthew Johnson
2006-09-18 01:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
Hi Jani
[snip]
Post by suneejan
I know that children are killed everyday. But on Halloween there are so
many that wind up missing, harmed and/or sacrificed to Satan!!!
What are you talking about? Don't you know that inventing or spreading false
rumors is a sin, too?
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
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