Discussion:
Shortcut for hearing God?
(too old to reply)
Jacob
2008-08-12 03:14:39 UTC
Permalink
God uses different ways to communicate with us. He has written down in
the Bible eternal truths and also many do's and don't's. The more we
are familiar with the Bible, the easier it is for us to know God's
will in many situations of life. But we also need to know His will in
specific situations for which there may not be any clear instructions
in the Bible. When we sincerely desire to please the Lord in
everything, it can be a problem that we aren't always clear about
God's will.

We would very much like it if God would physically tell us what we
should do. We would like Him to at least give us guidance through a
voice, vision, dream, prophecy, etc. God does communicate sometimes
through such means, but comparatively very rarely. If we are bent on
getting such supernatural guidance for our decisions, especially after
we have heard someone else's testimony, we may get frustrated, because
we can't insist that God should answer us according to our whims and
fancies!

Whether we are reading the Bible, listening to a preacher, praying or
waiting on the Lord, God speaks to us in our heart - our spirit. When
we hear Him, our heart 'burns within us' (Lk.24:32). In other words,
something becomes 'alive' in our spirit that tells us it is God
speaking to us. People may explain it as 'having eyes (or ears)
opened,' 'light dawning,' 'experiencing peace,' etc. But such a
'spiritual' event cannot be explained in words even though every born
again Christian experiences it.

The ability to hear God like this matures with experience, and there
is no way we can learn it overnight. When we realise that God's voice
is not the only one ringing in our mind but that is mingled with
voices from our own flesh and mind, people around us, and Satan and
his demons, it becomes clear that there is a possibility for us to
make mistakes. The only way we can get to recognise God's voice is
through getting to know Him better. And the way to get to know Him
better is through sincere and serious study of the Word, and by
learning about His ways through our own and other people's
experiences. This takes time and effort.

We can see that if we are impatient and would like to jump classes we
could have a lot of interest in supernatural guidance. This can be
dangerous, because God is not the only one doing supernatural things
now! Just like high school students imagine that they know everything
about mathematics, we can also think that God is speaking to us in
visions, dreams, prophetic words, etc., when actually we are imagining
things or Satan is feeding us with counterfeits.

God wants to instruct and teach us the way we should go (Ps.32:8). In
other words, He doesn't want to give us instructions to follow without
understanding (v.9). He wants us to make mature decisions based on His
word, our sanctified understanding of His ways, the prompting of the
Holy Spirit and the counsel of the mature. Let us not look for
shortcuts.
B
2008-08-13 01:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacob
God uses different ways to communicate with us. He has written down in
the Bible eternal truths and also many do's and don't's. The more we
are familiar with the Bible, the easier it is for us to know God's
will in many situations of life. But we also need to know His will in
specific situations for which there may not be any clear instructions
in the Bible. When we sincerely desire to please the Lord in
everything, it can be a problem that we aren't always clear about
God's will.
We would very much like it if God would physically tell us what we
should do. We would like Him to at least give us guidance through a
voice, vision, dream, prophecy, etc. God does communicate sometimes
through such means, but comparatively very rarely. If we are bent on
getting such supernatural guidance for our decisions, especially after
we have heard someone else's testimony, we may get frustrated, because
we can't insist that God should answer us according to our whims and
fancies!
Whether we are reading the Bible, listening to a preacher, praying or
waiting on the Lord, God speaks to us in our heart - our spirit. When
we hear Him, our heart 'burns within us' (Lk.24:32). In other words,
something becomes 'alive' in our spirit that tells us it is God
speaking to us. People may explain it as 'having eyes (or ears)
opened,' 'light dawning,' 'experiencing peace,' etc. But such a
'spiritual' event cannot be explained in words even though every born
again Christian experiences it.
The ability to hear God like this matures with experience, and there
is no way we can learn it overnight. When we realise that God's voice
is not the only one ringing in our mind but that is mingled with
voices from our own flesh and mind, people around us, and Satan and
his demons, it becomes clear that there is a possibility for us to
make mistakes. The only way we can get to recognise God's voice is
through getting to know Him better. And the way to get to know Him
better is through sincere and serious study of the Word, and by
learning about His ways through our own and other people's
experiences. This takes time and effort.
We can see that if we are impatient and would like to jump classes we
could have a lot of interest in supernatural guidance. This can be
dangerous, because God is not the only one doing supernatural things
now! Just like high school students imagine that they know everything
about mathematics, we can also think that God is speaking to us in
visions, dreams, prophetic words, etc., when actually we are imagining
things or Satan is feeding us with counterfeits.
God wants to instruct and teach us the way we should go (Ps.32:8). In
other words, He doesn't want to give us instructions to follow without
understanding (v.9). He wants us to make mature decisions based on His
word, our sanctified understanding of His ways, the prompting of the
Holy Spirit and the counsel of the mature. Let us not look for
shortcuts.
In my interp it is somewhat different. We are born with the ability to
hear God and God is always talking to us. Most of us however are not
listening FULLY. We are hearing however. With every act that we do out
of love and compassion and no-ego we are doing what God wants us to
do..we are listening. Our gut instincts are Gods voice urging us to do
what is right. What you call Satan or "his demons" I call the ego and
mistaken belief that we are in this alone and separate from God and
everyone else is separated and either against or for God. The ego is
what distracts us from our unity....from the simple fact that we can
never be separate from God that we are ONE. The ego tells us that
someone may hurt us so to treat them shabbily first...to distrust, to
fear, to hate, to judge who is better or worse....this is just one
more name for the "devil".
Where the Bible comes in is that it is one more interpretation of what
God MAY have said to some people. We use the Christ self or the
instinct to guide us to right interpretation of the Bible, to right
selection of religious texts of many faiths. We constantly ask
ourselves am I using my Christ self? am I doing this to Unify? to
separate? am I using this out of fear or love? and in this we are
guided to truth and what is of God and what is skewed of God. Our
connection is through our inner Christ first and to texts perhaps
second ....as books may burn up...fall apart..wither away...and our
connection will always be there. God did not give us such a tenuous
hold on an idol...an object...to have to be guarded through death
threats, inquisitors, wars etc. to quibble and kill over others not
accepting our interps of the Bible or other Texts but to take what is
inherent in all of us and bring it out into an outer object to work
our way slowly back within again. Going back to our original natures
is what is at stake here and the Bible or other texts are a helpful
hand to guide us slowly back within when we understand it correctly.
Seeking knowledge is an active pursuit..not passive. Nothing is spoon
fed to us..we have to work on it...understand in all real humility
that we don't know it all yet so we cannot pass judgement on others
and to slowly unfold to enlightenment. This is my opinion-interp from
what I take to be my inner Christ speaking to me. I don't state any of
this as fact for I am still unfolding to knowledge and only offer this
up to those open to whatever pearls they may find within. Blessings.
Bren
Matthew Johnson
2008-08-14 23:25:17 UTC
Permalink
In article <urqok.703$***@trnddc03>, B says...
[SNIP]
Post by B
In my interp it is somewhat different.
No doubt. But your 'interp' is not even related to a Christian interpretataion;
yours is some bizarre neo-pseudo-Hindu idea, not Christian at all.
Post by B
We are born with the ability to
hear God and God is always talking to us.
Really? Then why aren't you listening when He says "every one who came before Me
is a thief and a robber"?

[snip]
DKleinecke
2008-08-19 01:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B
We are born with the ability to
hear God and God is always talking to us.
Really? Then why aren't you listening when He says "every one who came before Me
is a thief and a robber"?
Is that what God says to you?

If so, I fear you are not hearing God. Something a parent or a teacher
once said is echoing through your head and drowning out anything God
might be saying to you.

I cannot go as far as a flat assertion that "we are born with the
ability to hear God". I can only state that experience and the
literature indicates that any human being can hear God if that human
being stops to strip off their preconceptions and leaves themselves
open for God to enter.

I also cannot speak for anyone but myself as to what God communicates.
But the literature strongly suggests to me that everyone else's
experience is like mine.

God's message is not in words, of course. And it can be summarized
quite briefly - I love you. I cannot imagine God saying anything as
mundane as "every one who came before me is a thief and a robber." Not
to mention that God, being outside time, would not say anything as
creation-bound as "who came before me."
AJA
2008-08-19 01:41:33 UTC
Permalink
"B" <***@gmail.com> wrote>
I surprise myself to agreeing that mostly we haven't the ears to hear what
God is telling us.
However, we need with God's help to have new ears and new eyes. A lifelong
process, achieved by Grace.
I don't agree with your facile assessment of the Bible. You seem yet not to
acknowledge provenance in the most rudimentary sense.
But here is where one really goes off the rails.
Post by B
Our gut instincts are Gods voice urging us to do
what is right.
What kind of gut instincts do you think humans have on their own, B.? I may
think that most people try to do the right thing. Whether I'm right or
wrong about that, most people fail utterly on their own to do what is right.
And certainly their 'gut instinct' is not the Holy Spirit.
What is one's gut instinct when eating that chocolate mousse cake, and just
short distances away people are starving? Or what is the gut instinct when
driving the air-conditioned car past people who are having to walk in the
heat? Heavy handed examples, B., but think about it: Gut instincts?
Blessings,
Ann
B
2008-08-20 01:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJA
I don't agree with your facile assessment of the Bible. You seem yet not to
acknowledge provenance in the most rudimentary sense.
But here is where one really goes off the rails.> Our gut instincts are Gods voice urging us to do
Post by B
what is right.
What kind of gut instincts do you think humans have on their own, B.?
B - gut instincts to not do wrong, to not hurt another. It's in our
culture and has been for a long time. For example we have the
"concept" of the angel and devil on our shoulders whispering to do the
right or wrong thing. For me..the gut instinct is always to do right
and to question the "devil"..aka ego. For many they choose to listen
to the ego because it is based on fear and the illusion that we are
separate from God....but many hear God stronger.

I may
Post by AJA
think that most people try to do the right thing. Whether I'm right or
wrong about that, most people fail utterly on their own to do what is right.
B - Yes people do fail. Therein lays the challenge to people to learn
to listen to the gut instinct..the inner
Christ that is always nudging us to do right...to silence the chatter
and clamor of the ego.
Post by AJA
And certainly their 'gut instinct' is not the Holy Spirit.
B - we each use a different phrase in a different way. For me the
physical instinct is one instinct based on the survival of the
body...it is based largely on ego for fear of death is what keeps us
going in body.
Post by AJA
What is one's gut instinct when eating that chocolate mousse cake, and just
short distances away people are starving?
B - for me that is acknowledging what you can and can't do at this
point in your life. It can be simply greed and disinterest...or it
could be the understanding that you not eating chocolate mousse cake
is not going to do one thing for those that are starving. It could
also drive you to give said cake to those that are starving...a stop
gap measure to be sure. The gut instinct is to do both...eat to
survive and the louder "share with them" ...however many choose not to
listen.

Or what is the gut instinct when
Post by AJA
driving the air-conditioned car past people who are having to walk in the
heat? Heavy handed examples, B., but think about it: Gut instincts?
B - Yes gut instincts. I believe that God speaks to us constantly and
it is up to us to listen or not. I did not need a book to tell me that
what hurts others hurts me...that being kind spreads and grows...that
listening to the plants and animals has me empathizing so I can make
their lives better...that was given me by God...inside me...for me to
be awake and open to..which I believe I am. It's the thing that causes
us to give when we have little...to hug when someone needs it...to
share. It is God/Inner Christ which manifests in gut instinct. All the
comes that is harmful is from the ego....which is fear and lies and
having two masters...the ego and God. God speaks to me in real words
and gut instincts. YMMV
Post by AJA
Blessings,
Ann
Blessings,
Bren
shegeek72
2008-08-20 01:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJA
What kind of gut instincts do you think humans have on their own, B.? I may
think that most people try to do the right thing. Whether I'm right or
wrong about that, most people fail utterly on their own to do what is right.
And certainly their 'gut instinct' is not the Holy Spirit.
Please excuse me, B, while I butt in here...

You say, Ann, our gut instinct is not the Holy Spirit. I guess it
depends upon what one defines their gut instinct as. I define my gut
instinct as intuition. It's the feeling I get when something bad (or
good) is about to happen, that may not be apparent from the
situation's circumstances. For example, once when I was traveling by
Grayhound we were changing buses at a bus stop. This involved the
transferring of our luggage to another bus. When I glanced over at my
suitcase I got a bad feeling in my gut and felt the need to run over
and grab it. However, a few seconds later a porter picked it up and
tossed it in with the rest of the luggage. When I arrived at my
destination I discovered my suitcase had gone to the wrong city.

This is just one example of dozens like it that have happened
throughout my life and my 'gut instinct' or intuition has never failed
me. When I pray to God I sometimes get a good feeling in my 'gut.' I
believe our intuition is in essence a supernatural sense we are all
born with and is from God.
--
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http://tarasresources.net

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http://www.mccchurch.org
Matthew Johnson
2008-08-20 01:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B
We are born with the ability to
hear God and God is always talking to us.
Really? Then why aren't you listening when He says "every one who came before Me
is a thief and a robber"?
Is that what God says to you?
Not just to me, to the whole world.

Really, Kleinecke, I am amazed you could even ask this question. Haven't you
read the Gospel of John? Or do you somehow believe His words there are not
addressed to you?

Remember: He said:

All who came before me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not heed them.
(Joh 10:8 RSVA)

But it sounds like you and Bren did heed them. I'll let you do the logic and
figure out what that proves about who is not the sheep of Christ.

[snip]
d***@aol.com
2008-08-20 01:58:37 UTC
Permalink
I surprise myself to agreeing that mostly we haven't the ears to hear wha=
t
God is telling us.
However, we need with God's help to have new ears and new eyes. =A0A life=
long
process, achieved by Grace.
I don't agree with your facile assessment of the Bible. =A0You seem yet n=
ot to
acknowledge provenance in the most rudimentary sense.
But here is where one really goes off the rails.> Our gut instincts are G=
ods voice urging us to do
Post by B
what is right.
What kind of gut instincts do you think humans have on their own, B.? =A0=
I may
think that most people try to do the right thing. =A0Whether I'm right or
wrong about that, most people fail utterly on their own to do what is rig=
ht.
And certainly their 'gut instinct' is not the Holy Spirit.
What is one's gut instinct when eating that chocolate mousse cake, and ju=
st
short distances away people are starving? =A0Or what is the gut instinct =
when
driving the air-conditioned car past people who are having to walk in the
heat? =A0Heavy handed examples, B., but think about it: =A0Gut instincts?
Blessings,
Ann
The problem, Ann, is that what God is saying often gets messed up with
what we think, or want, Him to be saying. I think that the OT Jews had
this problem too, kill everyone, smash the children's heads, etc. I
think B is right, God is always talking to us and the key is learning
how to listen; His sheep know his voice. Perhaps B picked a wrong idea
when he refered to "gut instincts" but I don't think he really missed
the mark too far. If you are really listening you get a feel for what
you should be doing.

Daryl
Matthew Johnson
2008-08-20 23:32:53 UTC
Permalink
In article <hTKqk.315$***@trnddc02>, ***@aol.com says...

[snip]
Post by d***@aol.com
The problem, Ann, is that what God is saying often gets messed up with
what we think, or want, Him to be saying. I think that the OT Jews had
this problem too, kill everyone, smash the children's heads, etc. I
think B is right, God is always talking to us and the key is learning
how to listen; His sheep know his voice. Perhaps B picked a wrong idea
when he refered to "gut instincts" but I don't think he really missed
the mark too far. If you are really listening you get a feel for what
you should be doing.
The problem, Daryl, is that there are so many people who _claim_ they are
"really listening", who _claim_ they have this "feel for what they should be
doing", yet are doing what is clearly wrong.

So something, somehow, has lead them seriously astray, yet they say they are
sure they are right, so they do not look for or even tolerate correction.

Now there is a group of people in Scripture who did this, who claimed very
loudly, "we see", "we see", yet were blind. They stand as a warning to us all:

Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may
see, and that those who see may become blind." Some of the Pharisees near him
heard this, and they said to him, "Are we also blind?" Jesus said to them, "If
you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your
guilt remains.
(Joh 9:39-41 RSVA)

They are not the only group who ran afoul of this trap. Many are trapped by it
today too.
AJA
2008-08-20 23:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
The problem, Ann, is that what God is saying often gets messed up with
what we think, or want, Him to be saying. I think that the OT Jews had
this problem too, kill everyone, smash the children's heads, etc. I
think B is right, God is always talking to us and the key is learning
how to listen; His sheep know his voice. Perhaps B picked a wrong idea
when he refered to "gut instincts" but I don't think he really missed
the mark too far. If you are really listening you get a feel for what
you should be doing.
It was the term gut instincts that threw me. Yes, to what you way about
learning how to listen to God. But that's not gut instincts- my own gut, my
own instincts, me. It's listening to God, as God's sheep know God's voice,
and doing God's bidding. Not easy, not a gut thing. And to the subject:
There is no shortcut for hearing God. It takes will, and practice, and
Grace.
Blessings,
Ann
DKleinecke
2008-08-20 23:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Really, Kleinecke, I am amazed you could even ask this question. Haven't you
read the Gospel of John? Or do you somehow believe His words there are not
addressed to you?
Two misunderstandings.

The first one is simple. The Bible, anything in it, is NOT God talking
to me or to you or to anyone. God talking to me or to you means direct
communication from God to me or to you. And God listening to out
responses. The people who value the Bible's words highest - Protestant
fundamentalists - do not make this mistake. They know that the words
in Bible, no matter how sacred, have been transmitted to us in written
documents - not in speech.

The second one is going cause trouble. I do not accept the Gospel of
John as anything more than a meditation on the ministry of Jesus by
someone who was more gnostic than Christian. The words of Jesus, in so
far as we have them, are almost all in the hypothetical document
called Q. Luke and Mark have worthwhile additions to the collection
(for example, the parable of the Good Samaritan). I suspect you are
not going to approve of such a treatment of John.
Matthew Johnson
2008-08-22 00:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Matthew Johnson
Really, Kleinecke, I am amazed you could even ask this question. Haven't you
read the Gospel of John? Or do you somehow believe His words there are not
addressed to you?
Two misunderstandings.
Why, Kleinecke! How delightful it is that you told us up front what
you were going to post! Such honesty is so rare these days, especially
in this NG;)
Post by DKleinecke
The first one is simple. The Bible, anything in it, is NOT God talking
to me or to you or to anyone.
That is a pretty severe misunderstanding all right. It is a rash and
irresponsible denial of the inspiration of Scripture.
Post by DKleinecke
God talking to me or to you means direct communication from God to me
or to you.
This too is a pretty severe misunderstanding. But now it is on the
level of linguistics rather than theology or epistemology.
Post by DKleinecke
And God listening to out responses.
And yet another. So I guess you weren't so honest with us after all:
there are more than two misunderstandings in your reply;)

Let me count them for you, since you are having difficulty counting:
#1 was your denial of the inspiration of Scripture, #2 was your
insistence that 'talking' means using your voice, #3 is your confusing
'talking' with 'two-way conversation'.
Post by DKleinecke
The people who value the Bible's words highest - Protestant
fundamentalists - do not make this mistake.
Who cares what they do? Are you using them to make a "straw-man
argument"? Despite your breezy presumption, they do NOT "value the
Bible's words highest". They DEVALUE His words by interpreting them
always in such a carnal manner, without ever even acknowledging what
the Bible itself says about how to intepret the Bible's words: the
Bible NEVER says to always interpret literally. It DOES say to beware
of the letter alone ("the letter kills, the spirit gives life").
Post by DKleinecke
They know that the words in Bible, no matter how sacred, have been
transmitted to us in written documents - not in speech.
But this is irrelevant: 'talking' is NOT restricted to the actual
process of using vocal chords, causing sound waves in the air to carry
vocal signs.

You could have figured this out yourself by using a dictionary. See,
for example, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/talk which has
under #8:

to communicate ideas by means other than speech, as by writing, signs,
or signals.
Post by DKleinecke
The second one is going cause trouble.
Your 'first', which was really three, already did cause trouble.
Post by DKleinecke
I do not accept the Gospel of John as anything more than a meditation
on the ministry of Jesus by someone who was more gnostic than
Christian.
Now if you had said, "the second one is going to cause more trouble",
you would have hit the nail on the head. You would have been quite
right; it is not just the fundamentalists who find this idea of your
utterly abhorrent, even inimical to Christianity.

Even some of the better _pretenders_ to Christianity find this idea of
yours totally anti-Christian. But this rules out the Gnostics, who
surely love your idea.
Post by DKleinecke
The words of Jesus, in so far as we have them, are almost all in the
hypothetical document called Q.
But here we get back to the topic of epistemology: how do you KNOW
this is true? I claim that any way of 'knowing' this must necessarily
rely on an epistemology that is itself alien and hostile not only to
Christianity, but even to the more enlightened non-christian
philosophies.

It is painful to read such delusion as the works of the "Jesus
Seminar": but I have read enough of it to know that yes, they are
relying on an epistemology that is more Gnostic than Christian.
Post by DKleinecke
Luke and Mark have worthwhile additions to the collection (for
example, the parable of the Good Samaritan). I suspect you are not
going to approve of such a treatment of John.
Finally, at least this once, your intuition lead you to the correct
conclusion: I do not approve.

But more important, those few of the wise who are still among us
today, those who are wise as the Proverb (Prv 10:14) describes "the
wise", agree: if you are NOT reading the Gospels (all four canonicals)
as Christ talking with you, then you are NOT "going to the wise (Prv
15:12)", you are doomed to misunderstand and remain in the darkness.

Unfortunately, many people throughout history have loved the darkness
(Joh 3:19-20); they are perfectly happy to remain there. Don't
encourage them!

And yes, by pretending that this is a Gnostic belief, or 'meditations'
of a Gnostic, you ARE encouraging them.
d***@aol.com
2008-08-22 00:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
[snip]
Post by d***@aol.com
The problem, Ann, is that what God is saying often gets messed up with
what we think, or want, Him to be saying. I think that the OT Jews had
this problem too, kill everyone, smash the children's heads, etc. I
think B is right, God is always talking to us and the key is learning
how to listen; His sheep know his voice. Perhaps B picked a wrong idea
when he refered to "gut instincts" but I don't think he really missed
the mark too far. If you are really listening you get a feel for what
you should be doing.
The problem, Daryl, is that there are so many people who _claim_ they are
"really listening", who _claim_ they have this "feel for what they should=
be
Post by Matthew Johnson
doing", yet are doing what is clearly wrong.
So something, somehow, has lead them seriously astray, yet they say they =
are
Post by Matthew Johnson
sure they are right, so they do not look for or even tolerate correction.
"By their fruits ye shall know them." What someone claims really
doesn't matter to me, that is between them and God. What they do is
another story. "If I say I love God yet hate my brother, I am a liar."
I must confess I am as hard-headed as any, often the Holy Spirit has
to whack me in the head with a two by four to get my attention and get
me back on track.

Yes people get led astray, by Satan, or more often, by themselves, I
have my own shortcomings to worry about. Don't fixate on if they are
listening to God or not, but if YOU will, I think you will find it a
manifold blessing.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Now there is a group of people in Scripture who did this, who claimed ver=
y
Post by Matthew Johnson
loudly, "we see", "we see", yet were blind. They stand as a warning to us=
Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not s=
ee may
Post by Matthew Johnson
see, and that those who see may become blind." Some of the Pharisees near=
him
Post by Matthew Johnson
heard this, and they said to him, "Are we also blind?" Jesus said to them=
, "If
Post by Matthew Johnson
you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' =
your
Post by Matthew Johnson
guilt remains.
(Joh 9:39-41 RSVA)
They are not the only group who ran afoul of this trap. Many are trapped =
by it
Post by Matthew Johnson
today too.
It is not our office to tell them so, but with gentleness and love to
try opening their eyes, don't you think? I know it is fatiguing,
dealing with the judgmental and self-righteous, and they put the whole
Church in a bad light, but they are our brethren too.

Daryl
Pat H
2008-09-02 01:44:09 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@aol.com
"By their fruits ye shall know them." What someone claims really doesn't
matter to me, that is between them and God. What they do is another
story. "If I say I love God yet hate my brother, I am a liar."

Patrick:
Ttrue, and we can even judge and know people's hearts by more things
than that...

A merry heart makes a cheerful countenance (Proverbs 15:13). To be merry
means we are glad. The word heart is not about the organ in our body. It
is the moral character of our inner man; our mind, our will, our soul.
It is also our knowledge, thinking, and wisdom; plus where we get our
emotions from. If our soul is glad then we reflect that with a happy
face. Countenance means face. Our face will be glad, joyful, pleasing,
and actually made to be beautiful. That is what the word for cheerful
means. We get a nice looking happy face when we seek after and attain
wisdom from God. Our family will see that on us and they will want that
from God, too. We become a closer family with wisdom. God is great, and
people will see that on our face.

As in water face reflects face, so a man's heart reveals the man -
Proverbs 27:19. You can see your own face when you look directly toward
the flat surface of water. It is like a mirror. We then see and know
what we look like and what we are. What this proverb is saying is that
our heart is just like that. People see our heart when they know what is
on our mind, our thinking. Our speech will tell them that. Plus people
can easily see our emotions on our face. If we have a good heart of
moral character this gets revealed to others. People will know our heart
simply by seeing our character. If you are a good person others will see
that. If you don't think you are that good, then turn to the LORD and
learn His word. He will change you! This will bring peace to you and
your family.

Wisdom rests in the heart of him who has understanding, but what is in
the heart of fools is made known - Proverbs 14:33. Wisdom will be placed
in us. She will settle down and remain in us if we are discerning,
intelligent, and careful about what we say or do. Here we see in this
proverb that the thoughts and emotions of foolishly arrogant people will
become known and revealed. So whether we are wise with a good moral
character, or not, people will know us and read us like a book either
way that we are. So be wise and put on a happy face!

He who heeds the word wisely will find good, and whoever trusts in the
LORD, happy is he - Proverbs 16:20. In the 1st half of this verse, this
is about words in speech and the things we do. If we speak wisely and do
wise things we will find good. To speak or act wisely means we are
circumspect. That is careful to consider all related circumstances
before acting, judging, or deciding. When we are this careful and
cautious, considering and pondering before we speak or do things, then
we will find good and have success. It will be pleasant and excellent
what we will acquire. Acting wisely will make us glad. The last half of
this verse says that if we trust, have confidence, and are secure in the
LORD we will be happy and blessed. This is what we get when we act
wisely and trust the Lord Jesus Christ. May you be wise so you can be
blessed by the LORD. Then you can smile, because Jesus loves you!

Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by
their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from
thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree
bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree
bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down
and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
- Matthew 7:15-20.

But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought
that the gift of God could be purchased with money. You have neither
part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the
sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if
perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that
you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." - Acts 8:20-23.
What Wisdom Will Do For You
http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/wisdom.htm

my preaching:
The Way To Heaven, according to the Bible
http://www.geocities.com/1christlover

"Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG
http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-.html

d***@aol.com
2008-08-22 00:43:30 UTC
Permalink
It was the term gut instincts that threw me. =A0Yes, to what you way abou=
t
learning how to listen to God. =A0But that's not gut instincts- my own gu=
t, my
own instincts, me. =A0It's listening to God, as God's sheep know God's vo=
ice,
and doing God's bidding. =A0Not easy, not a gut thing. =A0And to the subj=
There is no shortcut for hearing God. =A0It takes will, and practice, and
Grace.
Blessings,
Ann
Of course you are right, I remember making that point in another
forum, but I am not sure that B didn't intend something more than
conscience or what we would think of as "gut instincts." There seemed
to be something more open there, at least as I saw it. I could be
wrong.

Daryl
B
2008-08-22 00:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJA
Post by d***@aol.com
The problem, Ann, is that what God is saying often gets messed up with
what we think, or want, Him to be saying. I think that the OT Jews had
this problem too, kill everyone, smash the children's heads, etc. I
think B is right, God is always talking to us and the key is learning
how to listen; His sheep know his voice. Perhaps B picked a wrong idea
when he refered to "gut instincts" but I don't think he really missed
the mark too far. If you are really listening you get a feel for what
you should be doing.
It was the term gut instincts that threw me. Yes, to what you way about
learning how to listen to God. But that's not gut instincts- my own gut, my
own instincts, me. It's listening to God, as God's sheep know God's voice,
There is no shortcut for hearing God. It takes will, and practice, and
Grace.
Blessings,
Ann
B - there is no "me" in my beliefs..there is a Brenda version of
God..but no me in reality. Right now...I exist in ego and am trying to
get away from that...the extinguishing of the concept of
separateness. Gut instinct is just God talking to this version
through the bodies reactions which is picked up . All it takes is for
us to learn to be open to it...stop thinking it is to be questioned
"the good"....and to question that which further tries to separate
us...ie: fear,competition against another, concepts of better or worse
than, them/us,not being with God/being with God, God being outside us/
God being within only. It's hard to articulate what I mean to someone
who may not open to it but I don't have any need to force my beliefs
on anyone or have them validate my beliefs with a nod etc. I'm just
sharing for those that might want it...is all. In my beliefs God
shares and infuses us all with Grace ...it is just that some see it
only for some. I also believe that we make it difficult because we
believe it must be difficult or that we don't deserve it for some
reason..not good enough?

We are all versions of God...everything that is...is just one facet of
a diamond. We create the illusion of separateness because many of us
don't understand the lessons of wave and particle....separate
seeming..yet totally together.

Just my beliefs. YMMV.
Bren
d***@aol.com
2008-08-22 00:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by DKleinecke
Two misunderstandings.
The first one is simple. The Bible, anything in it, is NOT God talking
to me or to you or to anyone. God talking to me or to you means direct
communication from God to me or to you. And God listening to out
responses. The people who value the Bible's words highest - Protestant
fundamentalists - do not make this mistake. They know that the words
in Bible, no matter how sacred, have been transmitted to us in written
documents - not in speech.
Has a book never spoken to you? Curious, it happens to me all the
time :-)
Post by DKleinecke
The second one is going cause trouble. I do not accept the Gospel of
John as anything more than a meditation on the ministry of Jesus by
someone who was more gnostic than Christian. The words of Jesus, in so
far as we have them, are almost all in the hypothetical document
called Q. Luke and Mark have worthwhile additions to the collection
(for example, the parable of the Good Samaritan). I suspect you are
not going to approve of such a =A0treatment of John.
Funny, I would think John more authentic then the others, not so much
directed to explaining Christ to a particular audience. If I were
skeptical, stories of virgin birth, temptation by Satan, and things of
the sort would be less credible than someone reporting on what they,
themselves experienced. Bits of John are the oldest fragments of the
NT we have, and I have heard the claim it was written first, the
others being written to make Jesus more palatable to the Jews. Q is
indeed hypothetical, I have never seen any evidence for its existence,
though that may simply be my own ignorance. Don't you find the Pauline
epistles to be rather more in accord with John than any of the other
Gospels?

The God I experience seems to be very much in harmony with John, John
seems to express Christ's divinity more clearly (and the love you
mention more succinctly) than the other Gospels. I really would not
dismiss it so casually.

Daryl
Matthew Johnson
2008-08-25 03:09:38 UTC
Permalink
In article <SYnrk.401$***@trnddc01>, ***@aol.com says...

[snip]
Post by d***@aol.com
It is not our office to tell them so, but with gentleness and love to
try opening their eyes, don't you think?
No, I don't think so. Was Paul speaking with "gentleness and love" when he
cursed Elymas with blindness (Acts 13:10), calling him "full of deceit"?

If you say 'yes', you will have a hard time claiming that anything I said to
Kleinecke was less gentle or loving. If you say 'no', then you are agreeing that
you were wrong. Agreeing that you were wrong is always good for the soul, at
least when you are in fact wrong.
Post by d***@aol.com
I know it is fatiguing,
dealing with the judgmental and self-righteous, and they put the whole
Church in a bad light, but they are our brethren too.
But are all of them who say they are our brethren, really our brethren? I can
find nothing in Scripture to support this point of view. Can you?
d***@aol.com
2008-08-25 03:09:38 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 21, 5:43=A0pm, B <***@gmail.com> wrote:
...
Post by B
B - there is no "me" in my beliefs..there is a Brenda version of
God..but no me in reality. Right now...I exist in ego and am trying to
get away from that...the extinguishing =A0of the concept of
separateness. Gut instinct is just God talking to this version
through the =A0bodies reactions which is picked up . All it takes is for
...
Post by B
We are all versions of God...everything that is...is just one facet of
a diamond. We create the illusion of separateness because many of us
don't understand the lessons of wave and particle....separate
seeming..yet totally together.
...

Humm.......
I hope your beliefs work out for you. My experience with God, I
must say, is really quite different, that He is infinitely Holy, and
separate from us; but I know that is my experience and doesn't help
you much. It is curious, though, that you would be interested in
posting on a Christian newsgroup. I would never, for example, be
tempted to address my beliefs on a Buddhist newsgroup.

If wave-functions have divine lessons for us you would think they
would not have taken so long to acquire. I find the admonition to
"Know thyself" more instructive, if I am a god or an aspect of God. I
fear I am a poor one. :-)

Daryl
Matthew Johnson
2008-08-25 03:09:38 UTC
Permalink
In article <RYnrk.397$***@trnddc01>, B says...

[snip]
Post by B
B - there is no "me" in my beliefs..
Just my beliefs. YMMV.
That is your ego denying the truth and asserting your beliefs in their place.
B
2008-08-26 00:29:33 UTC
Permalink
...> B - there is no "me" in my beliefs..there is a Brenda version of
Post by B
God..but no me in reality. Right now...I exist in ego and am trying to
get away from that...the extinguishing =A0of the concept of
separateness. Gut instinct is just God talking to this version
through the =A0bodies reactions which is picked up . All it takes is for
...
Post by B
We are all versions of God...everything that is...is just one facet of
a diamond. We create the illusion of separateness because many of us
don't understand the lessons of wave and particle....separate
seeming..yet totally together.
...
Humm.......
I hope your beliefs work out for you. My experience with God, I
must say, is really quite different, that He is infinitely Holy, and
separate from us; but I know that is my experience and doesn't help
you much. It is curious, though, that you would be interested in
posting on a Christian newsgroup.
B - perhaps you don't know much about Christian mysticism then. All
book religions are at their core very very similar. The Christian
Mystics, the Taoists, the Sufi, the Kabbalah of the Jewish
mystics...all very similar. I post on a Christian group because I am a
Christian. You don't understand my kind of Christianity and that is
okay.

I would never, for example, be
tempted to address my beliefs on a Buddhist newsgroup.
If wave-functions have divine lessons for us you would think they
would not have taken so long to acquire. I find the admonition to
"Know thyself" more instructive, if I am a god or an aspect of God. I
fear I am a poor one. :-)
B - we humans are taking a very long time to learn. Know thyself is to
go within and hear the still small voice of God which speaks as the
inner Christ in us all. You are learning..we are all learning and no
one is "there" yet. All is God.

In my opinion of what I interp what my inner Christ is telling me..or
what I perceive to be my inner Christ. Again I never ask that you
believe in my way or go my way but that it is there for those that
think alike to know that they are not alone. ...for the way is very
narrow.

Blessings
Bren
Daryl
Matthew Johnson
2008-08-27 03:09:58 UTC
Permalink
In article <N7Isk.763$***@trnddc03>, B says...
[snip]
Post by B
B - perhaps you don't know much about Christian mysticism then.
How ironic, Bren, that you who keep claiming not to know, presume so much with
this presumption that HE is the one hwo "doesn't know much about Christian
mysticism".

I would say rather that is is YOU who "doesn't know much about Christian
Post by B
All
book religions are at their core very very similar. The Christian
Mystics, the Taoists, the Sufi, the Kabbalah of the Jewish
mystics...all very similar.
No. They have huge differences. Too different to claim that they are "at their
core very very similar."

As I have pointed out many times before: the crucial difference between
Christian mysticism and ALL others is that only the Christian mystic can enter
into mystical union with God without losing his own personhood. In ALL other
mysticisms, even going back to Plato, the mystic loses himself as he is
assimilated or absorbed into The One.

[snip]
d***@aol.com
2008-08-27 03:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by B
...> B - there is no "me" in my beliefs..there is a Brenda version of
God..but no me in reality. Right now...I exist in ego and am trying t=
o
Post by B
get away from that...the extinguishing =3DA0of the concept of
separateness. Gut instinct is just God talking to this version
through the =3DA0bodies reactions which is picked up . All it takes i=
s for
Post by B
...
We are all versions of God...everything that is...is just one facet o=
f
Post by B
a diamond. We create the illusion of separateness because many of us
don't understand the lessons of wave and particle....separate
seeming..yet totally together.
...
=A0 =A0Humm.......
=A0 =A0I hope your beliefs work out for you. My experience with God, I
must say, is really quite different, that He is infinitely Holy, and
separate from us; but I know that is my experience and doesn't help
you much. It is curious, though, that you would be interested in
posting on a Christian newsgroup.
B - perhaps you don't know much about Christian mysticism then. All
book religions are at their core very very similar. The Christian
Mystics, the Taoists, the Sufi, the Kabbalah of the Jewish
mystics...all very similar. I post on a Christian group because I am a
Christian. You don't understand my kind of Christianity and that is
okay.
I am afraid that I really cannot agree that all "book religions" are
similar, and if we are to believe scripture at all, Jesus was quite
exclusionary. I know the Quakers and Mormons think we are all/can
become gods. But wonder how much of scripture one can exclude and
still think oneself a Christian. I would think that ascribing to at
least the first couple of creeds would be necessary, if the term is to
have any meaning at all. I would think religions like those of Native
Americans or Sikhs to be closer to Christianity than Taoism for
example, the metaphysic there is quite different. I think you will
find Christian mystics, eg. St Jerome, had a pretty clear idea of the
Holiness of God. They would never consider themselves part of, or even
potentially part of, the Godhead.

BTW was really into the Kabbalah, AMORC, Order of the Golden Dawn,
etc. when I was much younger, so I do understand. I have not found
that sort of thing to really be useful in experiencing how God
operates.

Daryl
Pat H
2008-08-27 23:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Jesus said, "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me,
and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." - Luke 10:16.

my preaching:
The Way To Heaven, according to the Bible
http://www.geocities.com/1christlover

"Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG
http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-.html
B
2008-08-29 04:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat H
Jesus said, "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me,
and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." - Luke 10:16.
The Way To Heaven, according to the Bible http://www.geocities.com/1christlover
"Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONGhttp://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-.html
B - actually I believe that the Bible says that Jesus said this.
Whether Jesus said it or not is up for debate. Not everyone here takes
the bible literally.I can't picture anyone who would reject their
inner Christ.....which I believe he meant in my interp of what he may
have said in the Bible.

Bren
B
2008-08-29 04:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
I am afraid that I really cannot agree that all "book religions" are
similar, and if we are to believe scripture at all, Jesus was quite
exclusionary.
B - I said at their core. I don't believe that Jesus was at all
exclusionary. I believe the bible talks about Jesus
saying those that are not against me are for me, that go within and
listen to that still small voice, that he included all kinds of folks
in the quest for unifying in God.


I know the Quakers and Mormons think we are all/can
Post by d***@aol.com
become gods.
B - I"ve heard about Mormons saying this..not so much Quakers and
perhaps they mean this differently than how you think.


But wonder how much of scripture one can exclude and
Post by d***@aol.com
still think oneself a Christian.
B - Christianity is not contained in a book...for me it is lived
everyday whether one looks at a book or not. If Jesus, the Christ had
not been born...I would still be following a Christ way ...it would
just be named something differently I suspect.


I would think that ascribing to at
Post by d***@aol.com
least the first couple of creeds would be necessary, if the term is to
have any meaning at all.
B - this is not allegiance to a book but to God and the teachings of
Christ that were supposedly written down long after he had passed over
by other fallible human beings. Many of these same teachings are in
many of the book religions.


I would think religions like those of Native
Post by d***@aol.com
Americans or Sikhs to be closer to Christianity than Taoism for
example, the metaphysic there is quite different. I think you will
find Christian mystics, eg. St Jerome, had a pretty clear idea of the
Holiness of God. They would never consider themselves part of, or even
potentially part of, the Godhead.
B - from what you understand.
Post by d***@aol.com
BTW was really into the Kabbalah, AMORC, Order of the Golden Dawn,
etc. when I was much younger, so I do understand. I have not found
that sort of thing to really be useful in experiencing how God
operates.
B - to each his/her own. When I was in kindergarten...someone handing
me University texts would be of no use for I was not ready for
them...I would consider them wrong or silly. Everyone is ready at
their own rate of learning...some now ..some later. This is my belief.
Post by d***@aol.com
Daryl
Bren
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