I think I am a Christian.

[j***@aol.com]

I have a college education and some life experience. I have been taught
that almost anything can be questioned, almost no matter how
self-evident it seems. I am a Christian, I think. However I cannot say
I know for sure the tenants of Christianity actualy happened. I know
that when I belived much more in the value of faith in general than I
do now I was more gullable about taking on faith things that had little
to do with reilgous faith as well. And I was much more self righteous.
I wish there was someone learned who still values faith as much as I
used to that I could engage in practically unending dialogue with on
the subject with the emphasis on practically unending.

I am willing to accept Jesus if He is real. I am willing to accept his
will no matter what if I am truly beyond doubt what it is. I do not
think the Bible is inerrant though. I am not sure even St. Augustine
thought it was, < http://www.pibburns.com/augustin.htm> so I
cannot accept something just because the Bible says its so.

Do you believe a person with my doubts can be saved if they still
remain when I die, assuming Christianity is true?

I hope on the one hand the moderators will allow this post but on the
other hand they will eliminate replies that are not on point. I figure
a good moderated group, if it exists, maybe an answer to my prayers.

[Burkladies]

Who ever teaches the bible is inerrant? They apparently dont' realize
in history how the bible was compiled from the counsel of Nicea
forward. Christ is not limited to a book, Christ is eternal.
blessed be, Lady

Post by j***@aol.com
I have a college education and some life experience. I have been taught
that almost anything can be questioned, almost no matter how
self-evident it seems. I am a Christian, I think. However I cannot say
I know for sure the tenants of Christianity actualy happened. I know
that when I belived much more in the value of faith in general than I
do now I was more gullable about taking on faith things tat had little

...

Post by j***@aol.com
I am willing to accept Jesus if He is real. I am willing to accept his
will no matter what if I am truly beyond doubt what it is. I do not
think the Bible is inerrant though. I am not sure even St. Augustine
thought it was, < http://www.pibburns.com/augustin.htm> so I
cannot accept something just because the Bible says its so.

...

Post by j***@aol.com
Do you believe a person with my doubts can be saved if they still
remain when I die, assuming Christianity is true?

[Burkladies]

Why would an inteligent disiciple like yourself, accept doctrine just
because the bible says it is so? Preachers who do not do their
homework often preach that mind contortion. Christ is all you need
according to acts 15 with the cousel of Nicea. Jehova is not required
unless you follow that god anyway.
29Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD
IS ONE LORD;
30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH
ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
There is no other commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:29-31 (New American Standard Bible)
37 Jesus replied, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and
with all your soul. Love him with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and most important commandment.
39 And the second is like it. 'Love your neighbor as you love
yourself.'
40 Everything that is written in the Law and the Prophets is based on
these two commandments."
Matthew 22:37-40 (New International Reader's Version)
Blessed be, Lady

Post by j***@aol.com
I have a college education and some life experience. I have been taught
that almost anything can be questioned, almost no matter how
self-evident it seems. I am a Christian, I think. However I cannot say
I know for sure the tenants of Christianity actualy happened. I know
that when I belived much more in the value of faith in general than I
do now I was more gullable about taking on faith things that had little
to do with reilgous faith as well. And I was much more self righteous.
I wish there was someone learned who still values faith as much as I
used to that I could engage in practically unending dialogue with on
the subject with the emphasis on practically unending.
I am willing to accept Jesus if He is real. I am willing to accept his
will no matter what if I am truly beyond doubt what it is. I do not
think the Bible is inerrant though. I am not sure even St. Augustine
thought it was, < http://www.pibburns.com/augustin.htm> so I
cannot accept something just because the Bible says its so.

...

[B.G. Kent]

...

Post by j***@aol.com
Do you believe a person with my doubts can be saved if they still
remain when I die, assuming Christianity is true?

B - If by saved means "being in heaven etc." yes. It is your heart and not
what you are told that matters. If you heart is saying "Maybe...I'm not
sure either way" then you are being the most honest of all out there.
Many many many people will say "I believe" out loud when inwardly they are
saying "I'm not really sure". God cannot be fooled. God knows what is in
your heart and soul. Would God be so petty as to keep you out of heaven
because you are unsure? I don't believe so...I dn't believe that at all
actually. I believe in God...but I don't believe to the point of jumping
off a cliff and knowing that God would save me...why? well because I know
myself. I know there is a small smidgen of "maybe not" in there and I
would not put my trust totally in to something unless I could jump off a
cliff knowing that God would save me.

Like the other men in the boat who did not have the faith to keep from
sinking neath the waves...I don't have that faith YET...but I believe I
will some day.

I.M.O

Bren

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Burkladies
Who ever teaches the bible is inerrant?

Lots of people do. Whether they should or not is another question...

Post by Burkladies
They apparently dont' realize in history how the bible was compiled
from the counsel of Nicea forward.

Apparently it is you who doesn't realize how it was compiled. For the
bulk of the 'compiling' happened LONG before Nicaea.

Post by Burkladies
Christ is not limited to a book, Christ is eternal.

True. But that is no excuse for saying the blatantly un-christian
things you say in this NG.

And yes, claiming that the Bible was "compiled from the counsel[sic]
of Nicea forward" IS blatantly un-christian. It is a standard piece
of anti-christian propaganda.

The truth is that the Canon of the New Testament was not even closed
until _after_ Nicaea, but the variations in the Canon from even a much
earlier time were pretty small. And the major text-types of each
individual book had also stabilized by about 270BC, so that variations
in the contents of the books were also already pretty small LONG
before Nicaea.

Nicaea did _not_ decide the Canon. It was the consensus of Christian
Tradition that did.

[snip]

[r***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Burkladies
Who ever teaches the bible is inerrant? They apparently dont' realize
in history how the bible was compiled from the counsel of Nicea
forward.

I'm afraid that hearsay is not a good source for Christian origins.
The Council of Nicaea made no statements about the canon. The whole
idea is a myth.

Quite why this would show that the bible was not inerrant I'm not sure
anyway, but that must surely be for Christians to decide.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[suneejan]

To be saved, one needs to ask Christ in their heart. Tell God that they
know that Jesus is HIS son who died on the cross fore their sins. And
Ask God for forgiveness of their sin. Read Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23

Post by j***@aol.com
I have a college education and some life experience. I have been taught
that almost anything can be questioned, almost no matter how
self-evident it seems. I am a Christian, I think. However I cannot say
I know for sure the tenants of Christianity actualy happened. I know
that when I belived much more in the value of faith in general than I
do now I was more gullable about taking on faith things that had little
to do with reilgous faith as well. And I was much more self righteous.
I wish there was someone learned who still values faith as much as I
used to that I could engage in practically unending dialogue with on
the subject with the emphasis on practically unending.
I am willing to accept Jesus if He is real. I am willing to accept his

...

Post by j***@aol.com
Do you believe a person with my doubts can be saved if they still
remain when I die, assuming Christianity is true?

[B.G. Kent]

Post by suneejan
To be saved, one needs to ask Christ in their heart. Tell God that they
know that Jesus is HIS son who died on the cross fore their sins. And
Ask God for forgiveness of their sin. Read Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23

B - Looks better this way:

To be saved, it has been said in one interpretation of the Bible
that one needs to ask Christ into their heart. It also has been
interpreted to tell God that they know that Jesus, who some see as Gods
son, died on the cross for their sins to be absolved. Also to ask God for
forgiveness of said sin. For a Biblical answer that might help you may
think about reading Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23.

This is an opinion and not the only one.
In truth.

The above way is not disrespectful of others, is not bigoted and allows
others their own interpretation and their own connection to God to shine
through.

i.m.O
Bren

[suneejan]

I am speaking Biblical truth on salvation. The Bible is the
instruction from God for us humans to use and rely on! A person needs
Jesus in their life. God says so in HIS word 1 John 5:11-13.
One can have a lot of knowledge about Jesus.God and the Bible but
without Jesus in their life they have nothing. The scriptures becomes
real and understandable when Jesus is in the heart.

! tIMOTHY 2:5 There is one God and one mediator between God and
men,The man Christ Jesus.

B.G. Kent wrote:
...

Post by B.G. Kent
To be saved, it has been said in one interpretation of the Bible
that one needs to ask Christ into their heart. It also has been
interpreted to tell God that they know that Jesus, who some see as Gods

...

Post by B.G. Kent
The above way is not disrespectful of others, is not bigoted and allows
others their own interpretation and their own connection to God to shine
through.

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Burkladies
Who ever teaches the bible is inerrant?
Christ is not limited to a book, Christ is eternal.

And previously.....

Post by Burkladies
Why would an inteligent disiciple like yourself, accept doctrine just
because the bible says it is so?
Christ is all you need according to acts 15 [with the cousel of Nicea.]
Jehova is not required unless you follow that god anyway.

First off there is no logical correlation between someone accepting
biblical inerrancy, therefore God is limited to a book. You probably
just need to rethink that one a little more.

There is a problem that occurs when one claims to accept "Christ"
but does not accept the bible: how do we know what is true?
And for better or worse, this is a very real issue. When one strips
away the authority of the source document for these beliefs, then one
is left to basically make up for himself what he likes and dislikes.
You quoted several scriptures, but you also [seem to] claim the bible
has errors....
So why would you believe the scriptures you quoted as trustworthy
pointers to God?

Why would you believe that the commandments quoted in Mark 12:29-31 are
valid?
What makes you think there is a "Christ" at all?
What makes you think that "love" is the greatest commandment, etc.?

Post by Burkladies

Post by j***@aol.com
I have a college education and some life experience. I have been taught
that almost anything can be questioned, almost no matter how
self-evident it seems. I am a Christian, I think. However I cannot say
I know for sure the tenants of Christianity actualy happened. I know
that when I belived much more in the value of faith in general than I
do now I was more gullable about taking on faith things tat had little

...

Post by j***@aol.com
I am willing to accept Jesus if He is real. I am willing to accept his
will no matter what if I am truly beyond doubt what it is. I do not
think the Bible is inerrant though. I am not sure even St. Augustine
thought it was, < http://www.pibburns.com/augustin.htm> so I
cannot accept something just because the Bible says its so.

Biblically, God places a high, high premium on faith.
He gives us a little, enough to operate on, and expects us to trust
him.

I can give you a couple of reasons for this. First, given our finite
capacities, it is simply fitting that we trust God to lead us. We have
neither the vision nor the capabilities to lead. Second, there is a
principle in the Bible: to whom much is given, much is required.

IF God were to reveal Himself perfectly to us, so that we could have no
doubts, then His expectation for us would be that we be perfect. Any
sin would remove us from His presence for good.

I have no problem with asking questions.
I'm fully convinced that God, and belief in Him, is true and logical.
I don't pretend to understand everything, but I feel I have enough
that I am willing to trust Him for the rest.

And though it seems to be a minority position on this NG, I will still
push the bible as the inerrant Word of God.
I will go back to the previous comments and reiterate the difficulties
of disregarding this.
And I don't want to accept inerrancy simply on the grounds that
belief gets too complicated if I don't, but without it we are
rudderless. Each man will do what is right in his own eyes.


dave

[B.G. Kent]

Post by suneejan
I am speaking Biblical truth on salvation. The Bible is the
instruction from God for us humans to use and rely on! A person needs
Jesus in their life.

B - So "Biblical truth" is different than any other truth? how? I thought
truth is truth is truth. The other two sentences? prove please.



God says so in HIS word 1 John 5:11-13.

B - Ah..no. You believe that God is speaking in what you believe is Gods
book. If you say it IS God..then please..again prove or stop talking for
all of us here.

Post by suneejan
One can have a lot of knowledge about Jesus.God and the Bible but
without Jesus in their life they have nothing. The scriptures becomes
real and understandable when Jesus is in the heart.

B - I could say the same thing about the Nag Hammadi..but I won't..because
it is a ridiculous statement that can't be proven. It reminds me once
again of the story of the Emperors new clothes. Only those of refinement
and intelligence can see the Emperors new clothes.....etc.

Post by suneejan
! tIMOTHY 2:5 There is one God and one mediator between God and
men,The man Christ Jesus.

B - and you quote the Bible again as if that is proof of anything.

You still try and speak for others and I find that insulting. We all have
our own interp of God and the Bible and other scriptural texts yet I state
that it is opinion because I respect others and their opinions and will
not push mine on them as fact.

Please speak for yourself.

Bren

[suneejan]

Dave.
You said it so well. The scriptures are the inerrant word of God.God
is not limited to the book but uses the scriptures to reveal himself
and for our instruction.

[Burkladies]

What is your definition of Christian? Some followers don't know
'Christian'. Only Jehova. Christ is repeated in St. Paul formerly
known as Saul. And many preachers and Jews quote St. Paul to connect
with Jehova.
37 And he said unto him, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the great and first commandment.
39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as
thyself.
40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.'
Matthew 22:37-40 (American Standard Version)
How is Christ, limited to the Torah or a bible? Christ has no limits,
he is eternal salvation. That is how Jesus can teach what love is and
its three obvious forms; agape, philios & eros.
For those who believe in reincarnation, Christ also takes other forms
including a demigod, a child, a stranger, a sacrifice. Im sure there
are more ways Christ can reach us is we listen.

Blessed be, Lady

Post by suneejan
I am speaking Biblical truth on salvation. The Bible is the
instruction from God for us humans to use and rely on! A person needs
Jesus in their life. God says so in HIS word 1 John 5:11-13.
One can have a lot of knowledge about Jesus.God and the Bible but
without Jesus in their life they have nothing. The scriptures becomes
real and understandable when Jesus is in the heart.
! tIMOTHY 2:5 There is one God and one mediator between God and
men,The man Christ Jesus.
...

Post by B.G. Kent
To be saved, it has been said in one interpretation of the Bible
that one needs to ask Christ into their heart. It also has been
interpreted to tell God that they know that Jesus, who some see as Gods

...

Post by B.G. Kent
The above way is not disrespectful of others, is not bigoted and allows
others their own interpretation and their own connection to God to shine
through.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by suneejan
Dave.
You said it so well. The scriptures are the inerrant word of God.God
is not limited to the book but uses the scriptures to reveal himself
and for our instruction.

B - and I ask again...where is your proof?

Bren

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Burkladies
What is your definition of Christian?

B - for me it is the highest self in all beings that exist which is Christ
...so that Christian is anyone that is following that higher self.
Christianity can be found in the Bible and many other texts as well.

Jesus lived from his Christ center to the extent that there was no egoic
Jesus left when he ascended...he literally was God. This is the example
that we will all follow eventually in our various paths.

that is my subjective belief.

Blessings
Bren

[suneejan]

I Christian is a person who has Christ in their life. You recieve
Christ in one's life by asking Jesus in thru prayer, acknowledging your
sin and that Jesus is the son of God who died for your sins.

1 John 5:11-13 says that if one has Christ in their life has eternal
life.
Romans 3:20 We all have sinned
Romans 6: 23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal
life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Therre is no mention of reincarnation in the Bible. Do you know of
any?
Jesus is not a demigod but part of the trinity.
jesus is trying to reach people by his sacrifice on the cross!

[suneejan]

The scriptures are the word of God. 2Peter 1:18 - 21
Instruction..Colossians 3:16 2 Timothy 3:16
One can find the problems that the person is going thru from reading
about the same problem in the scriptures. One can learn from that
persoms experoence on what to do or what not to do. The bible has
answer for all problems such as: divorce, relationships,
loneliness,warfare,infidelity, ill manered people, birth , death,
family matters, etc. etc.

[suneejan]

This is not what tyhe Bible says. Christian does not follow a higher
selkf. A true Christian follows Christ and has Jesus in their hearts.
There is one mediator between God and man, The man Christ Jesus 1
Timothy2:5
! John 5:11-13 tells us that a person needs Christ in their life.
One recieves Christ in their life by asking HIM in, acknowledging their
sin and telling God that they know Jesus is God's son. Romans 3:23
Romans 6:23 Revelations 3:20

When Jesus asceended into heaven , He sent down the holy Spirit to help
us. Acts chapter 2.

Bren, a true christian needs to follow Christ!!!!

[Jani]

Post by Burkladies
What is your definition of Christian?

Being an outsider, I'm not qualified to judge .. but the most sensible and
succinct definition I've heard *from christians* is that a Christian
believes "Christ is Lord". That leaves room for discussion about inerrancy,
the deity of Christ, tradition and so on, but still distinguishes Christians
from those who might respect and / or worship Christ, as part of their own
faiths, but do not subscribe to the basic idea that "Christ is Lord".

This is why I, personally, wouldn't consider someone who sees Christ on a
par with Buddha as a Christian, and I'm still debating the matter with those
who see Christ a human messiah ;)

Jani

[B.G. Kent]

Post by suneejan
The scriptures are the word of God.

Says who? Just by saying it does it make it so?
With that kind of logic I can say Curious George was the word of God.

Bren

[* irenic *]

Post by Jani

Post by Burkladies
What is your definition of Christian?

Being an outsider, I'm not qualified to judge .. but the most sensible and
succinct definition I've heard *from christians* is that a Christian
believes "Christ is Lord". That leaves room for discussion about
inerrancy,
the deity of Christ, tradition and so on, but still distinguishes
Christians
from those who might respect and / or worship Christ, as part of their own
faiths, but do not subscribe to the basic idea that "Christ is Lord".
This is why I, personally, wouldn't consider someone who sees Christ on a
par with Buddha as a Christian, and I'm still debating the matter with
those
who see Christ a human messiah ;)
Jani

Your definition is - how would the Brits put it? - 'spot on!'

The distinguishing mark of a Christian is that s/he 'follows Christ' and
with Christ's help seeks to love God and others...

A primitive definition of a Christian comprises a dogmatic or
religio-functional component (ie. 'A Christian is someone who believes...'
or 'A Christian is someone who attends...' etc.)

You may not be as much an 'outsider' as you claim to be; and Christian
dogmatists, for example, might more be outsiders than they know (certainly
were described that way by Jesus, vis-a-vis the 'kingdom').

[B.G. Kent]

Post by suneejan
I Christian is a person who has Christ in their life. You recieve
Christ in one's life by asking Jesus in thru prayer, acknowledging your
sin and that Jesus is the son of God who died for your sins.

B - in your opinion...ofcourse.

Bren

[B.G. Kent]

Post by suneejan
This is not what tyhe Bible says.

so?



Christian does not follow a higher

Post by suneejan
selkf.

B - do you mean "a Christian does not follow a higher self?"

If you mean that...I would like to ask you then why you say that
Christians follow Christ...for to me...Christ is a higher self within us
all.



A true Christian follows Christ and has Jesus in their hearts.

B - I agree with that...but I don't say "it is" only in my opinion it is
because I don't believe in telling others unprovable "facts".

Bren

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Jani

Post by Burkladies
What is your definition of Christian?

Being an outsider, I'm not qualified to judge .. but the most sensible and
succinct definition I've heard *from christians* is that a Christian
believes "Christ is Lord". That leaves room for discussion about inerrancy,

...

B - Well then according to that construct...I would be a Christian ..as I
do believe that Jesus the Christ is Lord.

...

Bren