deconstructing 'traditional' values

Post by shegeek72
I will refute the main 'points' of the anti-GLSEN (Gay, Lesbian,
http://glsen.traditionalvalues.org/

You haven't _refuted_ any of them!

Post by shegeek72
1. "GLSEN targets children for recruitment into the homosexual
lifestyle as well as cross-dressing/sex change operations..."
Nothing could be further from the truth. No legitimate GLBT group
"targets" children and I know of none that do. That isn't their
purpose. They are support groups, and just like any other support
group, they can be contacted and provide camaraderie and support to
self-identified GLBT people. There's no recruitment or targeting
involved.

Just as I said above, you have not _refuted_ it. All you have done is
oppose their assertion with your own.

Post by shegeek72
2. "GLSEN [wants] to impose a homosexual agenda on the nation's public
schools."
Firstly, let's finally put to rest the idea that there's a "homosexual
agenda."

Not so easily done.

Post by shegeek72
An agenda implies using any means to force the homosexual
'lifestyle' (another misnomer) on others.

Nonsense. Look up the word 'agenda' in any good dictionary.

Post by shegeek72
These after-school groups are for GLBT people, have a right to gather
as any other after-school program, and attendance is voluntary. If
you don't agree with it, don't attend! No one is forcing anything on
anybody.

Ah, but this statement already assumes a premise very much in dispute,
namely, that kids of school age really _do_ "know they are gay". But
if this premise is false, then it is very possible that instead of
preaching to the converted, they are pushing the confused over the
edge. That _would_ be "forcing the homosexual lifestyle on others".

Post by shegeek72
If wanting equal rights (not 'special rights'), the end of
discrimination, rejection and hate crimes is an agenda, then so be it.

Of _course_ it is an agenda.

Post by shegeek72
When negros were fighting for equal rights in the 50s & 60s that most
have been the "African American agenda."

Yes, it might have been. But there was nothing wrong with _that_
agenda.

The vital difference being that there was nothing wrong with fighting
for equal rights. But what _you_ want is _not_ "equal rights". What
you want is blanket permission for behavior destructive both to self
and society.

Post by shegeek72
3. "GLSEN is pushing for the recruitment of so-called transgender
youth as part of its efforts to recruit sexually confused
individuals."
This falsehood is partially covered in my answer to #1.

That was NOT 'coverage'. Merely asserting the opposite of your
opponents assertion is neither 'refutation' nor 'coverage'.

Post by shegeek72
Again, there is no 'recruitment' involved.

There you go again! Your word against theirs. Who can you fool with
this?

Post by shegeek72
GLSEN is a support group where individuals voluntarily participate.

But here, you do not _even_ assert the opposite, much less refute. So
_what_ if "individuals voluntarily participate"? They participate
voluntarily in the Klan, too.

Post by shegeek72
Second, is their reference to GLBT people as "confused." These people
have genetic / biological conditions (as intersexed people) that
require the proper treatments.

So you love to repeat. But guess what: many of us are _far_ from
convinced. It is easier to believe that you _too_ are confused,
especially after your many posts filled with absolute nonsense, such
as your endorsement of astrology as a 'science'.

Post by shegeek72
That is, gender identity therapy to help sort out where one's internal
gender identity aligns.

Just like "recovered memory therapy" helped people remember what never
happened?

Post by shegeek72
IOW, if one is really TS, TG or just a
crossdresser, etc. The may be confused about where their gender lies
on the male\female spectrum, but the condition itself isn't the result
of confusion.

More assertion w/o proof. If it was unconvincing when
traditionalvalues.org did it, then it is unconvincing when you do it.

Post by shegeek72
4. :...homosexual activists have started pushing the idea that genital
deformities found in hermaphrodite newborns are actually evidence of a
third sex-not a birth defect."
The problem is they WERE once considered defects

And rightly so.

Post by shegeek72
and doctors would
surgically assign, via surgery, a baby or young child, to one gender
or another, usually to female.

The inherent difficulties of this procedure do NOT invalidate the
claim that the "genital deformities" are birth defects. Stop confusing
the issues just to make your gross political points.

[snip]

--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

shegeek72

2007-09-14 02:55:53 UTC

Post by shegeek72
Nothing could be further from the truth. No legitimate GLBT group
"targets" children and I know of none that do. That isn't their
purpose. They are support groups, and just like any other support
group, they can be contacted and provide camaraderie and support to
self-identified GLBT people. There's no recruitment or targeting
involved.

Just as I said above, you have not _refuted_ it. All you have done is
oppose their assertion with your own.

How many GLBT support groups have you attended to come to this
'conclusion'? Or are you trusting distortion of fact by so-called
Christian groups, like 'traditional values'.

Don't you think it prudent to at least attend one, if just to verify
your beliefs?

Post by shegeek72
An agenda implies using any means to force the homosexual
'lifestyle' (another misnomer) on others.

Nonsense. Look up the word 'agenda' in any good dictionary.

The way some 'Christians' use the word means exactly what I said.

Post by Matthew Johnson
Ah, but this statement already assumes a premise very much in dispute,
namely, that kids of school age really _do_ "know they are gay".

We just had a class on homosexuality in the Bible at our church
tonight and some of the participants said they knew they were gay as
young as three and four.

Post by Matthew Johnson
But if this premise is false, then it is very possible that instead of
preaching to the converted, they are pushing the confused over the
edge. That _would_ be "forcing the homosexual lifestyle on others".

That would need to be proved by attending one or more of the after-
school groups, don't you think?

Post by shegeek72
Again, there is no 'recruitment' involved.

There you go again! Your word against theirs. Who can you fool with
this?

I think it is you who are fooled.

Post by Matthew Johnson
But here, you do not _even_ assert the opposite, much less refute. So
_what_ if "individuals voluntarily participate"? They participate
voluntarily in the Klan, too.

Big difference. The Klan was/is a white supremest, racist
organization. GLBT support groups are there for support and to
challenge the bigotry fostered on them, supported by those who think
like you!

Post by Matthew Johnson
Just like "recovered memory therapy" helped people remember what never
happened?

There is no comparison. Recovered memory therapy, at least the kind
you're referring to, was introducing false memories into individuals
under hypnosis. Whether you like it or not, gender identity has been
proven, at least some of the time, to be hard-wired before birth.

[snip]
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://tarasresources.net

Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.mccchurch.org

Matthew Johnson

2007-09-17 01:58:35 UTC

Just as I said above, you have not _refuted_ it. All you have done is
oppose their assertion with your own.

How many GLBT support groups have you attended to come to this
'conclusion'?

What on earth are you going off an a tangent for? I don't need to
attend _any_ to figure out that all you have done is oppose their
assertion with your own.

Post by shegeek72
Or are you trusting distortion of fact by so-called
Christian groups, like 'traditional values'.

Your question is an irrelevant distraction.

Post by shegeek72
Don't you think it prudent to at least attend one, if just to verify
your beliefs?

No. That would be as imprudent as trying to assess the honesty of
time-share salesmen by attending one of their free-seminars.

Post by shegeek72
An agenda implies using any means to force the homosexual
'lifestyle' (another misnomer) on others.

Nonsense. Look up the word 'agenda' in any good dictionary.

The way some 'Christians' use the word means exactly what I said.

No, they do not. You are simply playing your usual wicked game of
distorting what they say.

Post by Matthew Johnson
Ah, but this statement already assumes a premise very much in dispute,
namely, that kids of school age really _do_ "know they are gay".

We just had a class on homosexuality in the Bible at our church
tonight and some of the participants said they knew they were gay as
young as three and four.

So _what_ if they say they knew it? That does not make it true.

Post by Matthew Johnson
But if this premise is false, then it is very possible that instead
of preaching to the converted, they are pushing the confused over
the edge. That _would_ be "forcing the homosexual lifestyle on
others".

That would need to be proved by attending one or more of the after-
school groups, don't you think?

No, I most certainly do _not_ think so. That would not be 'proof' at
all.

Post by shegeek72
Again, there is no 'recruitment' involved.

There you go again! Your word against theirs. Who can you fool with
this?

I think it is you who are fooled.

And your own recourse to such frequent and blatant illogic makes it
clear that it is you who are fooled.

Post by Matthew Johnson
But here, you do not _even_ assert the opposite, much less
refute. So _what_ if "individuals voluntarily participate"? They
participate voluntarily in the Klan, too.

Big difference. The Klan was/is a white supremest, racist
organization. GLBT support groups are there for support and to
challenge the bigotry fostered on them, supported by those who think
like you!

Not as big a difference as you think. Why, you even illustrate what
you have in _common_ with the Klan with your accusation. For they too,
have individuals voluntarily participate in making the accusation,
"our enemies are supported by those tho think like you". That is
_classic_ Klan 'reasoning', and here you are doing it.

Post by Matthew Johnson
Just like "recovered memory therapy" helped people remember what
never happened?

There is no comparison.

Sure, there is. See below.

Post by shegeek72
Recovered memory therapy, at least the kind you're referring to, was
introducing false memories into individuals under hypnosis.

Ah, but the practitioners were certified psychologists and
psychiatrists, APA members, and they did not _believe_ the memories
were false. They genuinely believed that these memories were true.

But they were wrong, just as your 'class' participants were wrong when
they said they knew when they were 3 or 4.

Post by shegeek72
Whether you like it or not, gender identity has been proven, at least
some of the time, to be hard-wired before birth.

No, it has not been proven. Your abuse of so-called 'scientific'
evidence for it is every bit as flawed as the support for "recovered
memory therapy".

Remember: those practitioners also claimed their method has scientific
support, and their claim was accepted for years before it was finally
debunked -- after ruining many people's lives.

So it has much in common. You too are ruining people's lives, fooling
them into complacency with particularly awful mortal sins, locking
them into a way of life that leads straight to the ninth circle of
hell.

--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

Steve Hayes

2007-09-17 01:58:36 UTC