Discussion:
Was "Re: Halloween"
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b***@allvantage.com
2006-10-18 01:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Re: Halloween
There's been a lot of discussion about Halloween. For some reason no
one seems to have noticed that Paul deals with a very similar issue in
the NT. The issue with Halloween is whether pagan associations mean
that we can't celebrate the holiday. The issue for Paul was whether
pagan associations meant that they couldn't eat meat. The people Paul
was talking about actually had a better case: the meat clearly had
been sacrificed, where the pagan associations with Halloween are
conjectural, and few of those who currently celebrate it would think
of those pagan associations.
* The idols don't exist; the meat is God's; we are free to eat it.
* Not everyone understands this; we shouldn't tempt our weaker brethren
to violate their conscience.
I would say that the same is true of Halloween. As long as there is no
association with pagan worship in the minds of those doing it, there
is no problem with the holiday. All days are God's and so are all
costumes. Many Christians celebrate it in ways that commemorate
faithful Christians before us. There is no problem in this.
However I certainly wouldn't want to tempt those who associate
Halloween with paganism to celebrate it, and if I lived in close
contact with someone who had this problem I would probably abstain
myself.
Christians have often had to make judgements like this in the mission
field. At times cultural associations may make it unsafe to do things
that new Christians might associate with their pagan past. However in
other contexts there may be no such problem.
But behind Paul's details is the ideal of mutual love and support.
Rom. 14:1 Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose
of quarreling over opinions. 2 Some believe in eating anything, while
the weak eat only vegetables. 3 Those who eat must not despise those
who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who
eat; for God has welcomed them. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on
servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or
fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them
stand.
Rom. 14:5 Some judge one day to be better than another, while others
judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own
minds. 6 Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord.
Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks
to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give
thanks to God.
One reason that the postings about Halloween tend to produce little
sympathy is the often shrill tone. I have no problem at all with those
who associate it with paganism abstaining. However as Paul advises,
they should not use this as a motivation for condemning others, or
self-righteousness. Nor should we consider ourselves superior because
we understand the fulness of our freedom in Christ.
Hello,

Paul was dealing with the specific instance of eating meat that was
sacrificed to pagan idols. Paul was not saying it was thus alright to
mix all the pagan things you want with true worship. As a matter of
fact, Paul was adamant about this.

Paul states that the things pagans sacrificed to their gods, was really
being sacrificed to the demons. So he said a 1 Co 10:21,

"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you
cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons."

And you can clearly see the demonic connection of Halloween with its
many costumes of witches, ghosts, goblins and devils, etc.

True, Paul said at 1 Co 10:23, "Everything is permissible"--but not
everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not
everything is constructive." (NIV)

He obviously didn't mean "Everything is permissible" in the absolute
sense. Even Paul listed things that were not permissible to God.
(notice some examples listed at 1 Co 6:9,10)

Paul is showing that, unlike those ancient Israelites under the many
written Mosaic laws, most things are permissible to Christians. It is
up to a Christian's Bible-trained conscience to determine whether or
not something is approved by God or not.

If you want a test as to whether something is really acceptable to God
or not, try picturing Jesus doing it. So in this case, picture if Jesus
would wear a costume of the devil, and go to the door and say "TRICK or
treat"?

Sincerely, James


***********************************
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Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
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B.G. Kent
2006-10-19 02:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Re: Halloween
However I certainly wouldn't want to tempt those who associate
Halloween with paganism to celebrate it, and if I lived in close
contact with someone who had this problem I would probably abstain
myself.
B - I would if they were pagan to begin with....celebrate your holidays I
would say! I don't believe in proselytizing at all really. I figure that a
person coming to a faith on thier own is more truthful and real then
collecting converts who may or may not agree with the faith but just show
up because they are brow beaten into it.
Christians have often had to make judgements like this in the mission
field. At times cultural associations may make it unsafe to do things
that new Christians might associate with their pagan past. However in
other contexts there may be no such problem.
B - Okay not sure about the "unsafe" word here.
Rom. 14:1 Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose
of quarreling over opinions. 2 Some believe in eating anything, while
the weak eat only vegetables. 3 Those who eat must not despise those
who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who
eat; for God has welcomed them. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on
servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or
fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them
stand.
B - Yes indeed! My inner Christ says this is from God.

I.M.O
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-10-19 02:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@allvantage.com
Paul states that the things pagans sacrificed to their gods, was really
being sacrificed to the demons. So he said a 1 Co 10:21,
B - Well...that's ridiculous for one. What a duality that makes thinking
so hard to do!! Pagans sacrificing to God is not different than what other
religions to for their idea of God...it is done in the manner of love or
hope. One almost sacrifices his son..and one sacrifices a lamb....it is to
gain favour.
Post by b***@allvantage.com
"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you
cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons."
B - and it is interesting to think that you would assume that refers to
anyone that is not of a specific faith? amazing.
Post by b***@allvantage.com
And you can clearly see the demonic connection of Halloween with its
many costumes of witches, ghosts, goblins and devils, etc.
B - beep! wrong. The costumes were to keep away those that decided to walk
amongst us that were not "good" during this small rip in the circle of
life known as Hallwe'en or Samhain. During this time....from dusk to
dusk...demons supposedly walk amongst us...along with the good spirits of
our ancestors...Did you not just state that the concept of demons was in
the Bible as well? People would wear costumes to confuse the demons or
scare them away. Witches also are not concretely evil any more than a
doctor is good or evil.
Post by b***@allvantage.com
True, Paul said at 1 Co 10:23, "Everything is permissible"--but not
everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not
everything is constructive." (NIV)
B - and I wonder how God feels. Paul is not him.
Post by b***@allvantage.com
written Mosaic laws, most things are permissible to Christians. It is
up to a Christian's Bible-trained conscience to determine whether or
not something is approved by God or not.
B - I disagree. I feel it is up to a Christians inner gnosis to determine
whether something is approve by God or not. In your way...a simple typo
could confuse everything...in the other way....getting to that inner
gnosis does not.
Post by b***@allvantage.com
If you want a test as to whether something is really acceptable to God
or not, try picturing Jesus doing it. So in this case, picture if Jesus
would wear a costume of the devil, and go to the door and say "TRICK or
treat"?
B - Well personally I don't think that Jesus would be that interested in
Hallowe'en so I think it is a rather pointless to wonder about but I DO
think that Jesus had a sense of humour so maybe he might have. I can
picture him laughing and having fun with children. Soaping windows or
t-p-ing someones house? no...but having fun getting candy?..yup.
Post by b***@allvantage.com
Sincerely, James
Bren
suneejan
2006-10-23 03:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by b***@allvantage.com
And you can clearly see the demonic connection of Halloween with its
many costumes of witches, ghosts, goblins and devils, etc.
B - beep! wrong. The costumes were to keep away those that decided to walk
amongst us that were not "good" during this small rip in the circle of
life known as Hallwe'en or Samhain. During this time....from dusk to
dusk...demons supposedly walk amongst us...along with the good spirits of
our ancestors...Did you not just state that the concept of demons was in
the Bible as well? People would wear costumes to confuse the demons or
scare them away. Witches also are not concretely evil any more than a
doctor is good or evil.
How do mere costumes scare away or confuse the demons when they are
more powerful than usmere humans. Read James 4:7 ...Submit to God,
and resist the devil and he shall flee from you. This does not mean to
dress up like Satan and his demons but to getclose and submit to God.
B.G. Kent
2006-10-24 02:46:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
How do mere costumes scare away or confuse the demons when they are
more powerful than usmere humans. Read James 4:7 ...Submit to God,
and resist the devil and he shall flee from you. This does not mean to
dress up like Satan and his demons but to getclose and submit to God.
B - It is called Folk customs suneejan. I personally don't believe in
demons...but some do. If a person believes that a placebo works....then
for them...it does.
I've read the Bible tons of times. I don't believe in the "devil". I am
very close to God...you can't get much closer than God being around and
within you.

I.M.O
Blessings
Bren
j***@gmail.com
2006-10-26 04:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
How do mere costumes scare away or confuse the demons when they are
more powerful than usmere humans. Read James 4:7 ...Submit to God,
and resist the devil and he shall flee from you. This does not mean to
dress up like Satan and his demons but to getclose and submit to God.
B - It is called Folk customs suneejan. I personally don't believe in
demons...but some do. If a person believes that a placebo works....then
for them...it does.
I've read the Bible tons of times. I don't believe in the "devil". I am
very close to God...you can't get much closer than God being around and
within you.
I have no idea why anyone thinks their mere "opinion",on any subject,is
worth much in the end.Man cannot even begin to fathom absolute truth,of
himself.Man (plural sence) was made in such a way that he/she
absolutely must seek his/her Creator to know what is truely right or
wrong.Otherwise your understanding is as stable as a little boat tossed
violently back and forth on the waves of the sea,in the midst of a
storm.
B.G. Kent
2006-10-27 03:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
I have no idea why anyone thinks their mere "opinion",on any subject,is
worth much in the end.Man cannot even begin to fathom absolute truth,of
himself.Man (plural sence) was made in such a way that he/she
absolutely must seek his/her Creator to know what is truely right or
wrong.Otherwise your understanding is as stable as a little boat tossed
violently back and forth on the waves of the sea,in the midst of a
storm.
B - all of what we say on this group when it refers to God is
opinion...and why? because none of us know enough to be able to prove it
to others. WE can believe it totally within our very soul...but to have
another believe it....totally...it has to make sense to them or they just
ape belief so as to fit in.
I believe in what I say 99.999 percent.....but I can't prove it at all
that it is so for others...and neither can they do it for me with their
beliefs. I find it interesting that you would surmise that because I write
down "my opinion" does not mean that I believe it deeply personally.
My ship never sinks and tosses violently but bobs gently like a cork.

I.M.O
Bren
suneejan
2006-10-26 04:40:57 UTC
Permalink
The devil is very real and is out to get whoever he could. The bible n
James 4:2 says to resist him and he will flee.
Evevn Jesus saud in Natthew 16:23...Get behind me Satan...
People do not have to follow the customs of their forefathers
especially if it takes away from the focus on God. Everyone is
accountable for what they do.
B.G. Kent
2006-10-27 03:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
The devil is very real and is out to get whoever he could. The bible n
James 4:2 says to resist him and he will flee.
Evevn Jesus saud in Natthew 16:23...Get behind me Satan...
People do not have to follow the customs of their forefathers
especially if it takes away from the focus on God. Everyone is
accountable for what they do.
B - Well I disagree with you dear Suneejan. I believe the adversary was
given a name to represent our own fears..our belief in the maya of this
dimension. It only exists if we believe it does. I know we don't have to
follow the customs of our forefathers but I like to sometimes. It does not
in the least bit take away focus from God anymore than going to the
bathroom, eating an apple...or dancing takes away the focus. It is just
some fun things in life that I enjoy.

Blessings
Bren
suneejan
2006-10-31 02:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
The devil is very real and is out to get whoever he could. The bible n
James 4:2 says to resist him and he will flee.
Evevn Jesus saud in Natthew 16:23...Get behind me Satan...
People do not have to follow the customs of their forefathers
especially if it takes away from the focus on God. Everyone is
accountable for what they do.
B - Well I disagree with you dear Suneejan. I believe the adversary was
given a name to represent our own fears..our belief in the maya of this
dimension. It only exists if we believe it does. I know we don't have to
follow the customs of our forefathers but I like to sometimes. It does not
in the least bit take away focus from God anymore than going to the
bathroom, eating an apple...or dancing takes away the focus. It is just
some fun things in life that I enjoy.
The devil is very real! He is not aname people put on their
fears....Jesus talks about Satan Matthew 16:23
Ghristians should put God as their main focus in their life, but also
can enjoy the other activites likeedancing , eating an apple etc.
Matthew Johnson
2006-10-31 02:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
The devil is very real and is out to get whoever he could. The bible n
James 4:2 says to resist him and he will flee.
Evevn Jesus saud in Natthew 16:23...Get behind me Satan...
People do not have to follow the customs of their forefathers
especially if it takes away from the focus on God. Everyone is
accountable for what they do.
B - Well I disagree with you dear Suneejan.
Well, so what? Suneejan at least has some idea what he is talking about, and you
do not.
Post by B.G. Kent
I believe the adversary was
given a name to represent our own fears..our belief in the maya of this
dimension.
Well, so _what_ if that is what you 'believe'? Your belief is not Christian.
This should be obvious to all. But even if it is not, the mere use of the word
'maya', which is a _Hindu_ notion, should have made it clear to anyone.

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
shegeek72
2006-10-31 02:12:49 UTC
Permalink
IMO, what some of us call the "devil" or demonic are entities created
by thought, because thought is creative. Everything humans do first
began as thought, every work of art, every symphony, every war was
thought before it came into being.

Thought is also creative in the esoteric (by esoteric I mean not
normally visible in the physical sense). Most of us have heard that
"like attracts like." If enough thought, whether by one person or many,
is negative it can take on a life of its own and is drawn to negative
thought and feeds on it. In that way is self-perpetuating. These
entities can take on various forms, like the archetpyical demons that
have existed in various cultures thoughout history and sometimes
take-over people, which requires the process we call exorcism.

I experienced this first-hand when my bed was shaken by one of these
entities.
--
The golden opportunity you are seeking is in yourself. It is not in
your environment; it is not in luck or chance, or the help of others;
it is in yourself alone. - Orison Swett Marden
suneejan
2006-10-31 02:12:49 UTC
Permalink
The Devil is very real. He is also mention as a serpent in Genesis 3.
Also we Christians can do the fun activities that you mentioned as long
as they are not our main focus. We all need toput God first in our
lives.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
The devil is very real and is out to get whoever he could. The bible n
James 4:2 says to resist him and he will flee.
Evevn Jesus saud in Natthew 16:23...Get behind me Satan...
People do not have to follow the customs of their forefathers
especially if it takes away from the focus on God. Everyone is
accountable for what they do.
B - Well I disagree with you dear Suneejan. I believe the adversary was
given a name to represent our own fears..our belief in the maya of this
dimension. It only exists if we believe it does. I know we don't have to
follow the customs of our forefathers but I like to sometimes. It does not
in the least bit take away focus from God anymore than going to the
bathroom, eating an apple...or dancing takes away the focus. It is just
some fun things in life that I enjoy.
j***@gmail.com
2006-10-31 02:12:50 UTC
Permalink
If you cannot understand anything in absolutes......you are not seeking
Gods guidence thats for sure.Your still very much lost.It doesn't
matter how nifty you think all that other stuff is.It is factually
meaningless.You still have no ability to truely understand because you
are not seeking God.If you were you'd have understanding in absolutes
more and more.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by suneejan
The devil is very real and is out to get whoever he could. The bible n
James 4:2 says to resist him and he will flee.
Evevn Jesus saud in Natthew 16:23...Get behind me Satan...
People do not have to follow the customs of their forefathers
especially if it takes away from the focus on God. Everyone is
accountable for what they do.
B - Well I disagree with you dear Suneejan. I believe the adversary was
given a name to represent our own fears..our belief in the maya of this
dimension. It only exists if we believe it does. I know we don't have to
follow the customs of our forefathers but I like to sometimes. It does not
in the least bit take away focus from God anymore than going to the
bathroom, eating an apple...or dancing takes away the focus. It is just
some fun things in life that I enjoy.
B.G. Kent
2006-11-01 01:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
The devil is very real and is out to get whoever he could. The bible n
B - Well you just keep on believing that then.
I also don't believe in the easter bunny....but Santa...yes he's real.

:)
i.m.o
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-11-01 01:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
If you cannot understand anything in absolutes......you are not seeking
Gods guidence thats for sure.
B - Who says I can't?

Your still very much lost.

B - I think you mean "you're" but actually I'm not. I believe in God..I
believe in parts of the Bible and I am very certain of my faith. What I
won't do however is say "it is" when I have no proof thereby making false
someone elses personal testimony. I don't find that kind or fair or
respectful at all...I find it deceitful to oneself.

It doesn't
Post by j***@gmail.com
matter how nifty you think all that other stuff is.It is factually
meaningless.You still have no ability to truely understand because you
are not seeking God.If you were you'd have understanding in absolutes
more and more.
B - Please prove this. You obviously don't understand subjectivism.

Blessings
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-11-01 01:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
The Devil is very real. He is also mention as a serpent in Genesis 3.
Also we Christians can do the fun activities that you mentioned as long
as they are not our main focus. We all need toput God first in our
lives.
B - First line..don't agree. Third...I have never heard of a real
Christian that puts a fun activity before God. The last line? I
agree...but it's up to each and everyone of us to look after our own
business first before being hypocritical.
i.M.o
Bren
ps. happy Halloween, Blessed Samhain and a wonderful All Saints Day to
all.
shegeek72
2006-11-01 01:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by suneejan
The Devil is very real. He is also mention as a serpent in Genesis 3.
Also we Christians can do the fun activities that you mentioned as long
as they are not our main focus. We all need toput God first in our
lives.
A talking donkey is also real in the Bible, but I have yet to find one
I can have a conversation with.
--
True religion is the life we lead, not the creed we profess. - Louis
Nizer
B.G. Kent
2006-11-01 01:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
IMO, what some of us call the "devil" or demonic are entities created
by thought, because thought is creative. Everything humans do first
began as thought, every work of art, every symphony, every war was
thought before it came into being.
B - Yes..they are known as Tulpas and have been supposedly created for
years. I personally believe in Tulpas...but that doesn't mean I can prove
them at all. As far as them being actually God created beings that went
"demonic" ...no I don't believe in that.

Blessings
Bren
mark
2006-10-31 02:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
. I don't believe in the "devil".
You mean you don't believe in satan, lucifer, the father of lies, etc?

Who tempted Eve?

Mark
B.G. Kent
2006-11-01 01:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
Post by B.G. Kent
. I don't believe in the "devil".
You mean you don't believe in satan, lucifer, the father of lies, etc?
Who tempted Eve?
Mark
B - Eve who?

Bren
shegeek72
2006-11-01 01:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
Who tempted Eve?
The story of Adam and Eve is more mythological than literal.
--
Nothing impedes reality like a belief system.
mark
2006-11-02 01:37:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by mark
Who tempted Eve?
The story of Adam and Eve is more mythological than literal.
--
Then what the hell are you doing in a religious discussion forum? Get
lost, and let people who wish to discuss it, do so.

Mark
Jani
2006-11-03 03:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
Post by shegeek72
Post by mark
Who tempted Eve?
The story of Adam and Eve is more mythological than literal.
--
Then what the hell are you doing in a religious discussion forum? Get
lost, and let people who wish to discuss it, do so.
There are plenty of Christians, and Christian theologians at that, who
discuss the mythological aspects of Genesis. You seem to have a remarkably
narrow view of what is permissible in a religious discussion forum ...

Jani
B.G. Kent
2006-11-03 03:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
lost, and let people who wish to discuss it, do so.
Mark
B - ah..'scuse me....but her opinions are just as valid as yours. If you
believe it is a reality and she believes it is mythos....what has that to
do with religion? A person can still be very religious and believe in
mythos.
I don't believe that Tara has once said you can't discuss religion and I
don't find your outburst something that Jesus would do.

Blessings

Bren
shegeek72
2006-11-03 03:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark
Post by shegeek72
The story of Adam and Eve is more mythological than literal.
--
Then what the hell are you doing in a religious discussion forum? Get
lost, and let people who wish to discuss it, do so.
Having a bad day? :P
--

"I no longer need to punish, deceive or compromise myself. Unless of
course I want to stay employed."

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