Discussion:
Was "Re: Original Sin"
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James
2007-09-24 04:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Re: Original Sin
Few if any will sustain seriously nowadays that Adam and Eve did
really exist. Therefore, Adam's sin does not affect me since I am not
one of his descendents. Am I wrong?
Hello,

Well, if Adam's sin caused his offspring to be born imperfect, then
unless you are a perfect human being, yes you are wrong. Adam's sin
does effect you. As the Bible puts it; Ro 5:12,

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death
through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all
sinned" (NIV)


Sincerely, James

**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

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B.G. Kent
2007-09-25 02:23:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by James
Re: Original Sin
Few if any will sustain seriously nowadays that Adam and Eve did
really exist. Therefore, Adam's sin does not affect me since I am not
one of his descendents. Am I wrong?
Hello,
Well, if Adam's sin caused his offspring to be born imperfect, then
unless you are a perfect human being, yes you are wrong. Adam's sin
does effect you. As the Bible puts it; Ro 5:12,
B - Only if you take the Bible literally..will this idea mean anything to
you.

Bren
l***@hotmail.com
2007-09-26 02:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Only if you take the Bible literally..will this idea mean anything to
you.
and if you don't then all you have left is your opinion. There is no
truth, just opinions. Opinions offer no hope of salvation before an
Infinite God who has been offended by your sin. Haven't you ever
heard it before, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse!" Go ahead,
walk in to your local court room and try pleading ignorance or that
in your opinion you did nothing wrong. You opinion means nothing
there and it will mean even less when you drawn into The Throne
Room of God.

Apart from the Scriptures, you have NO means of verification and
no safeguard against error.
Matthew Johnson
2007-09-26 02:47:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by James
Re: Original Sin
Few if any will sustain seriously nowadays that Adam and Eve did
really exist. Therefore, Adam's sin does not affect me since I am not
one of his descendents. Am I wrong?
Hello,
Well, if Adam's sin caused his offspring to be born imperfect, then
unless you are a perfect human being, yes you are wrong. Adam's sin
does effect you. As the Bible puts it; Ro 5:12,
B - Only if you take the Bible literally..will this idea mean anything to
you.
Not true. It is not necessary to take it literaly to see how brilliantly Gen 1-4
expresses the current fallen state of Man.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2007-09-27 02:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Only if you take the Bible literally..will this idea mean anything to
you.
and if you don't then all you have left is your opinion. There is no
truth, just opinions. Opinions offer no hope of salvation before an
B -that's your opinion...and it's also opinion that the Bible is to be
taken literally.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
in your opinion you did nothing wrong. You opinion means nothing
there and it will mean even less when you drawn into The Throne
Room of God.
Apart from the Scriptures, you have NO means of verification and
no safeguard against error.
B - the scriptures are not verification. If you don't find God within you
will never find God without.
I will never ever bow down to an object...I am NOT an idolator.

I.M.O
Bren
l***@hotmail.com
2007-09-27 02:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Only if you take the Bible literally..will this idea mean anything to
you.
Not true. It is not necessary to take it literaly to see how brilliantly Gen 1-4
expresses the current fallen state of Man.
But those who do so fail to recognize the fact that it necessarily
destroys the authority of Scripture. It is beyond imagination that God
would reveal a fact or doctrine to an individual mind and do nothing
toward securing an accurate statement of it both in its authorship and
in its providential care through the coping of the text. It is much
more natural to suppose that a prophet or an apostle who has received
directly from God a profound and/ or mysterious truth, inaccessible to
the human intellect apart from the illuminating work of the Spirit,
will not then be left to his own unassited powers in imparting what he
has received. Especially is it improbable that confirment of
revelation from God would be veiled in a husk and kernal shell game.

The nature of special revelation, as separate from inspiration, is
that it is something quite beyond the scope of the teaching of general
revelation let alone human reasoning. For instance, the vicarious
nature of Christ's atonement. The doctrine of a personal atonement won
by another is completely outside of natural religion. Natural religion
cannot extend beyong "The soul that sins will die" (Eze 18:4) nor
beyond feelings of guilt and impending wrath. But the revelation of
Scripture is that Christ "was made a curse for us" (Gal 3:13 and that
He "Is the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn 2:2) is beyond man left to
himself. Whether God will pardon sin and in what way He will do it can
not be determined by a priori reasoning. The only historical statement
respecting the fact that God will forgive sin is that of God Himself
declaring it and performing it. There may be conjectures and hopes in
regard to divine mercy, but nothing certain apart from the Scriptures.

And this applies to Gen 1-4. The fact that a skeptic can ask a
question that the Biblicist cannot answer is not proof that the
skeptic's own position is the truth or that the Biblicist is wrong.
The weight of burden falls not on the Biblicist but on the skeptic to
prove the literal rendering wrong. And any thesis that presumes that
it can discern which historical, geographical or chronological record,
in the middle of which just so happens to be doctrinal elements, is
deceiving both himself and his audience.

Likewise, to maintain that the doctrines of Scripture are held to be
infallible yet that it is no consequence whether history or geography
of Scripture to be regarded as inerrant, fails to see the fact of the
matter -that he has only succeeded in pulling the rug out from
underneath his own feet.

This is an either/or thing. One must submit to plenary inspiration of
all of Scripture or you must launch yourself out in your little diggy
in the uncontrolable ocean of relativity. There is no third option.
Matthew Johnson
2007-09-27 02:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Only if you take the Bible literally..will this idea mean anything to
you.
and if you don't then all you have left is your opinion.
In general this is not true, but it certainly seems to be true in Bren's case,
since _everything_ she posts is based on the weak reed of her own groundless
opinions.

[snip]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2007-09-28 02:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
This is an either/or thing. One must submit to plenary inspiration of
all of Scripture or you must launch yourself out in your little diggy
in the uncontrolable ocean of relativity. There is no third option.
B - nonsense. The Bible can be taken literally and not-literally. It is
the spirit of the letter that matters. To bow and scrape to every little
vowel is to say that heaven is not within..that God is not within...that
we are
not the microcosm of the macrocosm..and that God would put every single
bit of her wisdom into something that could be burnt or thrown out. Nor
would God put it in a form that for years only certain people could
read...as if God only cares about the clergy.

To me..God comes within first...that light that I will not hide under a
bush....and the Bible and other forms of scripture, second.
The only one who can truthfully say whether I am Christian or not in
reality is God herself.


Bren
l***@hotmail.com
2007-10-01 23:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by l***@hotmail.com
This is an either/or thing. One must submit to plenary inspiration of
all of Scripture or you must launch yourself out in your little diggy
in the uncontrolable ocean of relativity. There is no third option.
B - nonsense. The Bible can be taken literally and not-literally.
Obviously you do not understand what plenary inspiration specifies.
Also, ....again.... you do not know what the historic/grammatical
(literal) methodology actually involves. You view it far to radically
for it does include figures of speech such as symbolism, typology,
metaphors and allegories.
Post by B.G. Kent
It is
the spirit of the letter that matters. To bow and scrape to every little
vowel is to say that heaven is not within..that God is not within...that
we are
not the microcosm of the macrocosm..and that God would put every single
bit of her
God has revealed Himself in the masculine. He did not come born of
a man but of a woman. All christophanies are male.
Post by B.G. Kent
wisdom into something that could be burnt or thrown out. Nor
would God put it in a form that for years only certain people could
read...as if God only cares about the clergy.
You're arguing from emotion, not from reason and certainly not with
any understanding of why the written word. Sometimes I find it very
hard not to use words like "ignorant" or "unlearned" when such as
yourself make comments that are just such. You display a very
real naivette about the subject of revelation.
Post by B.G. Kent
To me..God comes within first...that light that I will not hide under a
bush....and the Bible and other forms of scripture, second.
The only one who can truthfully say whether I am Christian or not in
reality is God herself.
You still refuse to accept the fact of the matter than if you reduce
it to that, then you are left with no safeguard against error and as
noted in the original post, you are adrift in the ocean of relativism.
You have no absolutes and God is all about absolutism. The giving
of the law was all about discipling an antithetical conscience. But
you refuse that and so you refuse to submit to the God of Scripture,
thus you are not a Christian nor a Jew and stand outside the camp
yet unclean.
Matthew Johnson
2007-10-01 23:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Only if you take the Bible literally..will this idea mean
anything to you.
Not true. It is not necessary to take it literaly to see how
brilliantly Gen 1-4 expresses the current fallen state of Man.
But those who do so fail to recognize the fact that it necessarily
destroys the authority of Scripture.
You cannot fool us that easily, Loren. Just because _you_ say it
'necessarily' destroys it does not make it true. And it is not true.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
It is beyond imagination that God would reveal a fact or doctrine to
an individual mind and do nothing toward securing an accurate
statement of it both in its authorship and in its providential care
through the coping of the text.
It is beyond _your_ imagination. But that is only because you have a
neo-monophysite comprehension of the inspiration of Scripture.

Also, by jumping to the label "fact or doctrine", you are resorting to
a circular argument. The "fact or doctrine" revealed to the human
author of Gen 1-4 was NOT that God literally created the world in six
days etc. You have confused the doctrine with the vehicle for the
doctrine.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
It is much more natural to suppose that a prophet or an apostle who
has received directly from God a profound and/ or mysterious truth,
inaccessible to the human intellect apart from the illuminating work
of the Spirit, will not then be left to his own unassited powers in
imparting what he has received.
Whoever said it was unassisted? Not me. That is your own rash
conclusion based on some false dichotomy.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Especially is it improbable that confirment of revelation from God
would be veiled in a husk and kernal shell game.
Nobody thinks it is a "shell game" except for some of those who share
your neo-monophysite hermeneutic. Real people really do express
themselves in non-literal modes of communication. So real people are
not confused or offended when they find Scripture doing the same
thing.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
The nature of special revelation, as separate from inspiration, is
that it is something quite beyond the scope of the teaching of
general revelation let alone human reasoning.
Oh, if only you understood your own words here! For you have just
proved that the topic of the origin of the physical universe is NOT in
the scope of special revelation. For human reasoning _has_ understood
much of this topic. Cosmologists used to like to say, illustrating
this, that we understand all but the first three seconds.

[snip]
Post by l***@hotmail.com
This is an either/or thing. One must submit to plenary inspiration of
all of Scripture or you must launch yourself out in your little diggy
in the uncontrolable ocean of relativity. There is no third option.
This is just another of your many false dichotomies.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
B.G. Kent
2007-10-03 00:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by l***@hotmail.com
This is an either/or thing. One must submit to plenary inspiration of
all of Scripture or you must launch yourself out in your little diggy
in the uncontrolable ocean of relativity. There is no third option.
B - nonsense. The Bible can be taken literally and not-literally.
Obviously you do not understand what plenary inspiration specifies.
Also, ....again.... you do not know what the historic/grammatical
(literal) methodology actually involves.
B - why shucks frend why doncha teech me some. I need lerning good and if
somebudy as smarts as yoo can teech me den Im hapy.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
God has revealed Himself in the masculine. He did not come born of
a man but of a woman. All christophanies are male.
B - God reveals itself to me as God and the black Sophia ...God reveals
itself as plant, stone,sky,sun,moon,animals, male,female, angel,
nature,heaven ...
I guess you didnt get that version.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by B.G. Kent
wisdom into something that could be burnt or thrown out. Nor
would God put it in a form that for years only certain people could
read...as if God only cares about the clergy.
You're arguing from emotion, not from reason and certainly not with
any understanding of why the written word. Sometimes I find it very
hard not to use words like "ignorant" or "unlearned" when such as
yourself make comments that are just such. You display a very
real naivette about the subject of revelation.
B - Logic and linear male mind is not the place where God resides. God is
beyond this. You can use whatever words you want Isender if you want to
feel more something than me....my worth is in Gods eyes..not your egos
eyes which are dark ones and easily fooled.
Post by l***@hotmail.com
Post by B.G. Kent
To me..God comes within first...that light that I will not hide under a
bush....and the Bible and other forms of scripture, second.
The only one who can truthfully say whether I am Christian or not in
reality is God herself.
You still refuse to accept the fact of the matter than if you reduce
it to that, then you are left with no safeguard against error and as
noted in the original post, you are adrift in the ocean of relativism.
You have no absolutes and God is all about absolutism. The giving
of the law was all about discipling an antithetical conscience. But
you refuse that and so you refuse to submit to the God of Scripture,
thus you are not a Christian nor a Jew and stand outside the camp
yet unclean.
B - You totally miss the point Isender. A book is not where God resides. I
have an absolute. My absolute is in my experience of it. If you cannot
find what you seek within..you will never find it without.
It is up to God who is clean or not...and as God is not limited and
everywhere...then God is within all and of God.

You will learn someday.

Bren

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