global warming

[B.G. Kent]

So we're killing this world off apparantly because many people mistake
"having dominion over" to mean "we can take this beautiful gift and do
what we darn wish to it". I don't know about many of you out there but I
love this earth and see it as a gift from God to be treated well and left
for future generations in a better state than before.

Bren



****************************************

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not
believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in
your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the
authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions
because they have been handed down for many generations. But after
observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with
reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then
accept it and live up to it"
- Siddhartha Gautama -

****************************************

[Barnacle Bill]

Post by B.G. Kent
So we're killing this world off

No we're not. The earth is going through some natural cyclical climatic
changes. Certain people, for political and social reasons, have seized on
this as an opportunity to destroy freedom.

Post by B.G. Kent
apparantly because many people mistake
"having dominion over" to mean "we can take this beautiful gift and do
what we darn wish to it". I don't know about many of you out there but I
love this earth and see it as a gift from God to be treated well and left
for future generations in a better state than before.
From the 'Star Trek' episode, 'Twilight of the gods:'

"...and who will make the simple skins we shall wear?" [owtte]

I am certainly in favor of more efficient and less polluting energy, but
that's not really the aim of the environmental extremists. The destruction
of free enterprise and deconstruction of western culture is. Green is the
new red...

BB

Post by B.G. Kent
Bren

---

[I'm afraid I'm not competent to moderate a discussion on global warming,
nor is this the group for it. --clh]

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Barnacle Bill

Post by B.G. Kent
So we're killing this world off

No we're not. The earth is going through some natural cyclical climatic
changes. Certain people, for political and social reasons, have seized on
this as an opportunity to destroy freedom.

B - Really? can either of us prove our statements?

I tend to agree with Al Gore and David Suzuki.
Freedom to destroy with greed....hmmmm that's a new one.

Bren

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B.G. Kent
So we're killing this world off apparantly because many people mistake
"having dominion over" to mean "we can take this beautiful gift and do
what we darn wish to it". I don't know about many of you out there but I
love this earth and see it as a gift from God to be treated well and left
for future generations in a better state than before.

No, we're having global warming because the godless reject the idea that there
is a creator and that creation is a gift, but rather believe that it is just
one damn thing after another.

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

And if other people have to die to provide our merriment, who cares? There;s
no God to be concerned about it and hold us accountable.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Steve Hayes
No, we're having global warming because the godless reject the idea that there
is a creator and that creation is a gift, but rather believe that it is just
one damn thing after another.

B - Interesting opinion. I've seem many mainstream Christians be joyful
for the death of this earth and pay little concern to leaving it to their
children in good shape for the believe we are all going up to heaven soon
so who cares? I've seen "so - called Godless" ( I don't believe anyone CAN
be Godless but that's another matter altogether) have deep concern for
this organism called Earth because they believe that this is where our
kind will be living until the sun goes supernova. Whatever the
affiliation....I'm just tired of folks who give little concern for this
earth period.

Bren

[v***@gmail.com]

On Feb 5, 9:01 pm, Steve Hayes <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
...

Post by Steve Hayes
No, we're having global warming because the godless reject the idea that there
is a creator and that creation is a gift, but rather believe that it is just
one damn thing after another.
Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
And if other people have to die to provide our merriment, who cares? There;s
no God to be concerned about it and hold us accountable.

..

Hey, I might be able to grow palm trees in my front yard! Besides, if
it gets warm enough maybe the Antartic continent will be accessible
and exploitable.

[zach]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Steve Hayes
No, we're having global warming because the godless reject the idea that there
is a creator and that creation is a gift, but rather believe that it is just
one damn thing after another.

B - Interesting opinion. I've seem many mainstream Christians be joyful
for the death of this earth

That is because as Christians, we know that physical creation is
fleeting, corruptible, and dying, as are our lives. The focus on God
is spiritual, which is eternal, incorruptible, and living. Focus on
life, not death.

[l***@hotmail.com]

And everyone is debating "global warming?" I've got your
global warming for you.......

2 Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which
the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be
destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be
burned up.

[Paul]

Post by zach

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Steve Hayes
No, we're having global warming because the godless reject the idea that there
is a creator and that creation is a gift, but rather believe that it is just
one damn thing after another.

B - Interesting opinion. I've seem many mainstream Christians be joyful
for the death of this earth

That is because as Christians, we know that physical creation is
fleeting, corruptible, and dying, as are our lives. The focus on God
is spiritual, which is eternal, incorruptible, and living. Focus on
life, not death.

I think I have to side with Brother Steve on this. The idea that "physical
creation is [bad]" but God and spiritual things are good is a false
dichotomy that is not really supportable Biblically (and is mostly an
imported reading from Greek Platonism). It's true that the current world is
fallen (or more accurately that it was affected by the Fall). But we must
also remember that God created it, and that He pronounced it to be "very
good" in its original state. Similarly, He will be establishing a New
Creation -- New Heaven AND New Earth -- wherein we will be able to dwell
with Him in bodies that will presumably be physical though glorified, if New
Testament descriptions are reasonably accurate. In God's sight the world
and its people (i.e. all Creation) were worth the Son dying for.

So, no, we should not be joyful over "the death of this earth" -- that is
part of the tragedy of our Sin and the Fall, and we should mourn it. We
should also remember that we are told to be stewards of the earth while we
are here, not plunderers.

All of this adds up to a much more nuanced picture than the "spiritual good
/ physical bad" binary view.

In Christ,
Paul

[B.G. Kent]

Post by zach
That is because as Christians, we know that physical creation is
fleeting, corruptible, and dying, as are our lives. The focus on God
is spiritual, which is eternal, incorruptible, and living. Focus on
life, not death.

B - so that means that if someone is hurting something that you want to
leave for your children...you are supposed to say "sure go ahead" and
leave it?
Even if that leaving it ends up in costing your children their life down
the line? I guess we can bury our heads in the sand...but to me when God
gives me a gift...I cherish it.

Bren

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by zach
That is because as Christians, we know that physical creation is
fleeting, corruptible, and dying, as are our lives. The focus on God
is spiritual, which is eternal, incorruptible, and living. Focus on
life, not death.

I would suggest you locate and read a book by Udo Middleman
titled, "Proexistence." It's a very biblicly based study on the
Christian's duty of stewardship in relationship to the envoirnment.
Even though physical creation suffered from the fall even as man
did, we are still responsible to be good stewards of the earth even
as we are responsible to be good stewards of your physical
bodies in what we eat and drink and your mental processes in
what we watch and read. Remember, this earth is not going to
be burnt up until after the Millennium.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by l***@hotmail.com
And everyone is debating "global warming?" I've got your
global warming for you.......
2 Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which
the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be
destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be
burned up.

B - Yeah...it's called "when the sun goes supernova".
Calling it the day of the Lord though is rather insulting.
Why this need to make God or Jesus a "bad guy" is baffling.


Bren

[Red]

Post by Paul
So, no, we should not be joyful over "the death of this earth" -- that is
part of the tragedy of our Sin and the Fall, and we should mourn it. We
should also remember that we are told to be stewards of the earth while we
are here, not plunderers.

I would think that God would be pretty PO'd if man destroyed one of
His works of art. And the OT shows that He can be pretty forceful
when he's mad at us.
Red

[Chris Smith]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yeah...it's called "when the sun goes supernova".
Calling it the day of the Lord though is rather insulting.
Why this need to make God or Jesus a "bad guy" is baffling.

Incidentally, the sun will not "go supernova," ever. It is simply too
small. Its mass is below the Chandrasekhar limit. Perhaps you're
thinking of a red giant.

Your theology is a little suspect, too. Anything that happens occurs
because of God. Jesus is God. No one casts either as "bad guy" simply
by acknowledging (as scripture does over and over again) that it will be
at God's choice when the world comes to an end. In fact, it is very
clearly implied at several points in scripture that God deliberately
makes this decision, and postpones the end of the world, in order to
ensure that everyone has the chance to achieve salvation and be reborn
in Jesus Christ. What's so horrible about that decision criteria?

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Chris Smith
Incidentally, the sun will not "go supernova," ever. It is simply too
small. Its mass is below the Chandrasekhar limit. Perhaps you're
thinking of a red giant.

B - Perhaps.

Post by Chris Smith
Your theology is a little suspect, too. Anything that happens occurs
because of God. Jesus is God. No one casts either as "bad guy" simply
by acknowledging (as scripture does over and over again) that it will be
at God's c

B - My theology is suspect? heh. No...my theology is my theology period. I
don't make statments of fact unless I can back them up with proof...and
not circular pseudo proof....but proof.

Blessings
Bren

[Jani]

"Steve Hayes" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:qkRxh.3568$***@trndny04...

[]

Post by Steve Hayes
No, we're having global warming because the godless reject the idea that there
is a creator and that creation is a gift, but rather believe that it is just
one damn thing after another.

On behalf of the godless, can I just point out that some of us do understand
that we have an effect on that "one damn thing after another", and whether
it's a gift or a happenstance, there's no excuse for not leaving the
facilities in the state you would wish to find them, etc.

Jani

[Bob]

Post by B.G. Kent
So we're killing this world off apparantly because many people
mistake "having dominion over" to mean "we can take this
beautiful gift and do what we darn wish to it". I don't know about
many of you out there but I love this earth and see it as a gift from
God to be treated well and left for future generations in a better
state than before.
Bren

I don't believe that we, as a species, have the power to "kill this
world off". We certainly have the power to put it into a "cleansing
mode" where "we" can be killed off, but the world itself will always
recover and generate new life as it has in the past. ( The dinosaurs,
Noah, etc.) Evidently God built the power of re-creation into His
creation. And so far with each re-creation, a new and better world
results for a while until the next cleansing occurs. So we need to be
concerned about us, not about the earth (long term anyway).
As for leaving future generations in a better state than before,
that's subjective. I remember stories of the mid-to-late 1800's when
cowboys swore that barbed wire fences was ruining the world to the
point that they didn't want to live anymore.
-Bob

----

[But God charged us with more than just not completely destroying the
earth. As I understand Genesis, he charged us with watching over it
like a gardener. He also gave us the right to use it, but I'd hope the
standards we follow are fall far on this side of having it regenerate
life without us. --clh]

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Bob
world off". We certainly have the power to put it into a "cleansing
mode" where "we" can be killed off, but the world itself will always
recover and generate new life as it has in the past. ( The dinosaurs,
Noah, etc.) Evidently God built the power of re-creation into His
creation. And so far with each re-creation, a new and better world

B - things is...I see us as part of this world..at least on the physical
level...and as much a part of mother earth as the trees,other animals and
stones. So us dying off...is killing her as well. Everything is linked.


Blessings
Bren

[Jani]

"Bob" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:IKuAh.3447$***@trnddc06...

[]

Post by Bob
I don't believe that we, as a species, have the power to "kill this
world off". We certainly have the power to put it into a "cleansing
mode" where "we" can be killed off, but the world itself will always
recover and generate new life as it has in the past. ( The dinosaurs,
Noah, etc.) Evidently God built the power of re-creation into His
creation. And so far with each re-creation, a new and better world
results for a while until the next cleansing occurs. So we need to be
concerned about us, not about the earth (long term anyway).

So, are you saying that humans should continue to waste and misuse the
resources of the planet, because God will simply create another species
suited to the wreckage we've left? That's an ... interesting ... perspective
on stewardship, to say the least. As far as I know, it's not a *Christian*
perspective, although it certainly supports the attitude of the "godless"
types that Steve was talking about upthread.

Jani

[Bob]

Post by Jani
So, are you saying that humans should continue to waste and misuse the
resources of the planet, because God will simply create another species
suited to the wreckage we've left? That's an ... interesting ... perspective
on stewardship, to say the least. As far as I know, it's not a *Christian*
perspective, although it certainly supports the attitude of the "godless"
types that Steve was talking about upthread.
Jani

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying our goal should be
to save us - the earth will take care of itself. All emphasis is on
what we are doing to the earth where it should be on what we are doing
to ourselves. The attitude of "why should I be concerned about ice
caps melting when they won't affect my neighborhood" may be wrong, but
it is understandable. But if you show me my neighborhood in a desert,
what could be my family starving for lack of food, cars parked for
lack of oil, etc, you will definitely get my attention. I'm saying we
need to change the message if we want results. We are stewards of the
land, not for the lands benefit, but for our benefit.
-Bob

[Bob]

Post by Jani
So, are you saying that humans should continue to waste and misuse the
resources of the planet, because God will simply create another species
suited to the wreckage we've left? That's an ... interesting ... perspective
on stewardship, to say the least. As far as I know, it's not a *Christian*
perspective, although it certainly supports the attitude of the "godless"
types that Steve was talking about upthread.
Jani

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying our goal should be
to save us - the earth will take care of itself. All emphasis is on
what we are doing to the earth where it should be on what we are doing
to ourselves. The attitude of "why should I be concerned about ice
caps melting when they won't affect my neighborhood" may be wrong, but
it is understandable. But if you show me my neighborhood in a desert,
what could be my family starving for lack of food, cars parked for
lack of oil, etc, you will definitely get my attention. I'm saying we
need to change the message if we want results. We are stewards of the
land, not for the lands benefit, but for our benefit.
-Bob

[Bob]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - things is...I see us as part of this world..at least on the physical
level...and as much a part of mother earth as the trees,other animals and
stones. So us dying off...is killing her as well. Everything is linked.

But was not mother earth alive with animals, flowers & trees, birds,
etc. before we appeared on the scene? After the mess we've made, I'm
not so sure that she would miss us if we left. She may look forward
to the Rapture as we look forward to getting over the flu.
Bob

[Jani]

Post by Bob

Post by Jani
So, are you saying that humans should continue to waste and misuse the
resources of the planet, because God will simply create another species
suited to the wreckage we've left? That's an ... interesting ...
perspective
on stewardship, to say the least.

[]

Post by Bob
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying our goal should be
to save us - the earth will take care of itself.

Then surely that *is* saying that the earth doesn't matter. If it can "take
care of itself", and if it's ruined for the species currently inhabiting it
then God will just create some new ones, that's giving humans carte blanche
to do whatever benefits *them*, no matter what the environmental
consequences.


All emphasis is on

Post by Bob
what we are doing to the earth where it should be on what we are doing
to ourselves.

Most of those who deliberately treat the environment in a cavalier fashion
seem to be doing pretty well for themselves, though. Cars, massive
consumerism, an obsession with material acquisitions, a carelessly NIMBY
attitude to waste disposal ...

The attitude of "why should I be concerned about ice

Post by Bob
caps melting when they won't affect my neighborhood" may be wrong, but
it is understandable. But if you show me my neighborhood in a desert,
what could be my family starving for lack of food, cars parked for
lack of oil, etc, you will definitely get my attention.

So, unless it's your immediate family suffering the consequences, it doesn't
matter? You have no concern for your descendants, or for other people's
families?

I'm saying we

Post by Bob
need to change the message if we want results. We are stewards of the
land, not for the lands benefit, but for our benefit.

Unless you take the view that only the personal satisfaction of *this*
generation is important, then you can't separate the two. We don't benefit
ourselves *or* the land by destroying it; we're part of the ecosystem, not
some privileged super-beings perched on the top of it. And even if you see
stewardship as something that's intended to benefit only the stewards, then
that means *all* the stewards, not just the ones with the greatest ability
to destroy the resources.

Jani

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Bob

Post by B.G. Kent
B - things is...I see us as part of this world..at least on the physical
level...and as much a part of mother earth as the trees,other animals and
stones. So us dying off...is killing her as well. Everything is linked.

But was not mother earth alive with animals, flowers & trees, birds,
etc. before we appeared on the scene? After the mess we've made, I'm
not so sure that she would miss us if we left. She may look forward
to the Rapture as we look forward to getting over the flu.
Bob

B - I do know some that feel that way....and yes I believe she was alive
before we came here....but I do believe that this creation in this realm
is for us to learn in...and that our being here is the main reason she
exists. I think she may ....like any mother be saddenned that we have
mistreated her so.....but I don't think she wants us to leave until we
have learnt our lessons.
my opinion only.

Bren

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Bob

Post by B.G. Kent
B - things is...I see us as part of this world..at least on the physical
level...and as much a part of mother earth as the trees,other animals and
stones. So us dying off...is killing her as well. Everything is linked.

But was not mother earth alive with animals, flowers & trees, birds,
etc. before we appeared on the scene? After the mess we've made, I'm
not so sure that she would miss us if we left. She may look forward
to the Rapture as we look forward to getting over the flu.
Bob

B - I do know some that feel that way....and yes I believe she was alive
before we came here..

This belief that dead matter is a living being is one of the _many_ differences
between you and Christianity.

[snip]

[Red]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Bob
But was not mother earth alive with animals, flowers & trees, birds,
etc. before we appeared on the scene? After the mess we've made, I'm
not so sure that she would miss us if we left. She may look forward
to the Rapture as we look forward to getting over the flu.
Bob

B - I do know some that feel that way....and yes I believe she was alive
before we came here....but I do believe that this creation in this realm
is for us to learn in...and that our being here is the main reason she
exists. I think she may ....like any mother be saddenned that we have
mistreated her so.....but I don't think she wants us to leave until we
have learnt our lessons.
my opinion only.
Bren

A very nice view of our existance. But based upon past history, she is
also capable of "tough love". I'm not sure how she would define the
point where we "learnt our lessons". How far can we push her before
she say's "OK, that's it!"?
Bob

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Red
A very nice view of our existance. But based upon past history, she is
also capable of "tough love". I'm not sure how she would define the
point where we "learnt our lessons". How far can we push her before
she say's "OK, that's it!"?
Bob

B - Oh yes..I know she is very capable of tough love. I'm sure she has
further to go as well. Sadly she never had to go there...but we rather
pushed the envelope there.

Bren
--
****************************************

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not
believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in
your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the
authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions
because they have been handed down for many generations. But after
observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with
reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then
accept it and live up to it"
- Siddhartha Gautama -

ps. "don't even believe this because it is written down in a religious
book". Brenda K.
****************************************

[zach]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - Oh yes..I know she is very capable of tough love. I'm sure she has
further to go as well. Sadly she never had to go there...but we rather
pushed the envelope there.

.
"She" did! Many times. Pick up some geology books if you want proof.
.

[DKleinecke]

Post by Matthew Johnson
This belief that dead matter is a living being is one of the _many_ differences
between you and Christianity.

You are treading on very dangerous theological ground here. Couldn't
"This belief that dead matter is a living being" be read as a
description of the resurrection of Christ?

At the risk of putting words into somebody else's mouth, couldn't one
read the resurrection as a type of what will happen to the Earth when,
and if, humanity is raptured or learns wisdom?

Mother Nature is one of those psychologically-created "entities" who
can hardly be called "dead matter" because her very existence is
dubious. If she exists, which I doubt, she is indubitably alive.

[Bob]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - Oh yes..I know she is very capable of tough love. I'm sure she has
further to go as well. Sadly she never had to go there...but we rather
pushed the envelope there.

So far not with us, but I once read that something like 70% of all
species of life that has ever lived on this planet is now extinct,
including one species of man. Yet the earth lives on without them.
That in itself should be a warning to us.
-Bob

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by DKleinecke

Post by Matthew Johnson
This belief that dead matter is a living being is one of the _many_ differences
between you and Christianity.

You are treading on very dangerous theological ground here. Couldn't
"This belief that dead matter is a living being" be read as a
description of the resurrection of Christ?

That would be a highly irresponsible reading.

Post by DKleinecke
At the risk of putting words into somebody else's mouth, couldn't one
read the resurrection as a type of what will happen to the Earth when,
and if, humanity is raptured or learns wisdom?

That too, would be an irresponsible reading. There is a _reason_ for the
division between non-living and living matter. It is a division that is finally
closed only in the End Times.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Bob

Post by B.G. Kent
B - Oh yes..I know she is very capable of tough love. I'm sure she has
further to go as well. Sadly she never had to go there...but we rather
pushed the envelope there.

So far not with us, but I once read that something like 70% of all
species of life that has ever lived on this planet is now extinct,
including one species of man. Yet the earth lives on without them.
That in itself should be a warning to us.
-Bob

B - I guess that depends on what you mean by "lives on without them".
Are we the same Earth? is this earth actually "living on" or is it
struggling on? Obviously the earth has been moving and changing and
forming before we got here...but that doesn't negate the theory that we
ourselves have caused a heck of a lot of the decline through neglect. We
humans tend to have a habit of pooping where we sleep unfortunately.
Anyone who thinks that this is a natural evolution only has to look at the
destruction of the earth that we humans have caused by greed and dinosaur
thinking (short term) in an incredibly short amount of time to see that we
are causing most of the damage and that it never had to be. I like the
native way of thinking about how what you do today will affect seven
generations down the line from you..and to keep that always in
consideration.
always nice to talk to you Bob...hugs.

Blessings
Bren

[B.G. Kent]

Post by zach

Post by B.G. Kent
B - Oh yes..I know she is very capable of tough love. I'm sure she has
further to go as well. Sadly she never had to go there...but we rather
pushed the envelope there.

.
"She" did! Many times. Pick up some geology books if you want proof.

B ?????? want proof of what? I said she IS capable of tough love.

Bren

[B.G. Kent]

Post by DKleinecke
Mother Nature is one of those psychologically-created "entities" who
can hardly be called "dead matter" because her very existence is
dubious. If she exists, which I doubt, she is indubitably alive.

B - What is dead? what is alive? I personally believe that nothing
dies..but just changes form. I believe that since everything is moving
particle and wave energy and not really "solid" in the full sense of that
word..that it is very much alive. Why shouldn't "mother nature" exist any
more than Jehovah?

Bren

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by DKleinecke
Mother Nature is one of those psychologically-created "entities" who
can hardly be called "dead matter" because her very existence is
dubious. If she exists, which I doubt, she is indubitably alive.

B - What is dead? what is alive? I personally believe that nothing
dies..but just changes form.

To put it bluntly, who _cares_ what you "personally believe"? The topics for
this Newsgroup are _christianity_. Your "personal beliefs" have remarkably
little to do with any of these topics.

Post by B.G. Kent
I believe that since everything is moving
particle and wave energy and not really "solid" in the full sense of that
word..

This is gibberish couched in language that only _sounds_ like it is influenced
by quantum mechanics.

Post by B.G. Kent
that it is very much alive.

And it has precious little to do with whether a thing is 'alive' or not.

Post by B.G. Kent
Why shouldn't "mother nature" exist any
more than Jehovah?

Because YHWH is the superessential transcendentally existing one. So nothing can
"exist any more" than Him.

Post by B.G. Kent
Bren