Do Christians Sin?

[B***@gmail.com]

"The whole design of God was to restore man to his image, and raise
him from the ruins of his fall; in a word, to make him perfect; to
blot out all his sins, purify his soul, and fill him with all
holiness, so that no unholy temper, evil desire, or impure affection
or passion shall either lodge or have any being within him. This and
this only is true religion, or Christian perfection; and a less
salvation than this would be dishonourable to the sacrifice of Christ
and the operation of the Holy Ghost. . . . Call it by what name we
please, it must imply the pardon of all transgression and the removal
of the whole body of sin and death. . . . This, then, is what I plead
for, pray for, and heartily recommend to all true believers, under the
name of Christian perfection." -Adam Clark

[Dave]

Post by B***@gmail.com
"The whole design of God was to restore man to his image, and raise
him from the ruins of his fall; in a word, to make him perfect; to
blot out all his sins, purify his soul, and fill him with all
holiness, so that no unholy temper, evil desire, or impure affection
or passion shall either lodge or have any being within him. This and
this only is true religion, or Christian perfection; and a less
salvation than this would be dishonourable to the sacrifice of Christ
and the operation of the Holy Ghost. . . . Call it by what name we
please, it must imply the pardon of all transgression and the removal
of the whole body of sin and death. . . . This, then, is what I plead
for, pray for, and heartily recommend to all true believers, under the
name of Christian perfection." -Adam Clark

Of course Christians sin. "If we say that we have no sin, we are
deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). If
Christians understand the truth that God's Word teaches about the
depravity of the human heart, they know that just because they are not
conscious of failure does not mean that they are free from it. If the
truth is "in" them as a controlling, motivating influence, this kind
of self-deception will not take place. Whether someone claims to be
"without sin" for a brief period of time or claims it as a permanent
attainment, the claim is false.

Dave

[A Brown]

Re: Do Christians Sin?

Yes, but we try not to and are sorrowful when we do because we understand
what an offense it is to God.

[AJA]

"Dave" <***@juno.com> wrote in message news:LL%> Of course
Christians sin. "If we say that we have no sin, we are

Post by Dave
deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). If
Christians understand the truth that God's Word teaches about the
depravity of the human heart, they know that just because they are not
conscious of failure does not mean that they are free from it. If the
truth is "in" them as a controlling, motivating influence, this kind
of self-deception will not take place. Whether someone claims to be
"without sin" for a brief period of time or claims it as a permanent
attainment, the claim is false.

As a friend of mine, a Methodist pastor, says,
What we currently have in popular evangelical Christianity is an unhappy mix
of Calvinism and Arminianism. On the one hand, folks feel they are saved by
faith & can never be lost, on the other they think they sin every day in
thought, word, and deed. So, salvation is understood as status with God
and special privileges: Christians aren t perfect [they say], they re just
forgiven. But, the message of "holiness of heart and life" is rarely heard.
Or, if it is, it is in the form of an unhealthy legalism.


What is needed is teaching and awareness of the "fullness of God's love" for
us. See the site quoted at:

http://web.mac.com/craigadams1/Commonplace_Holiness/Blog/Entries/2008/3/10_Our_Mission%2C_Our_Glory%2C_Our_Power..html

Blessings,

Ann

[B.G. Kent]

Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by those...we
learn.

Bren

[B***@gmail.com]

Post by Dave

Post by B***@gmail.com
"The whole design of God was to restore man to his image, and raise
him from the ruins of his fall; in a word, to make him perfect; to
blot out all his sins, purify his soul, and fill him with all
holiness, so that no unholy temper, evil desire, or impure affection
or passion shall either lodge or have any being within him. This and
this only is true religion, or Christian perfection; and a less
salvation than this would be dishonourable to the sacrifice of Christ
and the operation of the Holy Ghost. . . . Call it by what name we
please, it must imply the pardon of all transgression and the removal
of the whole body of sin and death. . . . This, then, is what I plead
for, pray for, and heartily recommend to all true believers, under the
name of Christian perfection." -Adam Clark

Of course Christians sin. "If we say that we have no sin, we are
deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). If
Christians understand the truth that God's Word teaches about the
depravity of the human heart, they know that just because they are not
conscious of failure does not mean that they are free from it. If the
truth is "in" them as a controlling, motivating influence, this kind
of self-deception will not take place. Whether someone claims to be
"without sin" for a brief period of time or claims it as a permanent
attainment, the claim is false.
Dave

The Bible says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us."
These words were written by the apostle John in I John 1:8. The Bible
teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and
therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God. John addressed
this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no
need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born
again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed "from all
unrighteousness" (I Jn. 1:9).
John said, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn.
2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:
". . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I
Jn. 1:7.
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a
liar, and the truth is not in him." I Jn. 2:4.
"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins...Whosoever
abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that
doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that
committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the
beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth
not commit sin...In this the children of God are manifest and the
children of the devil . . ." I Jn. 3:5-10.
The apostle's message is clear and is in accordance with other New
Testament writers. Those who would try to use I John 1:8 to uphold
their sinning religion, wrest it to their own destruction and contrary
to the tenure of all the scriptures.

[**Rowland Croucher**]

Dave wrote:
<>

Post by Dave
Of course Christians sin.

And after 12 years and posting 56,560 times on Usenet I'm more and more
convinced of it :-)

Post by Dave
Dave

--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)

Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/

Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/

[Just Visiting]

Post by Dave

Post by B***@gmail.com
"The whole design of God was to restore man to his image, and raise
him from the ruins of his fall; in a word, to make him perfect; to

...

Post by Dave

Post by B***@gmail.com
and the operation of the Holy Ghost. . . . Call it by what name we
please, it must imply the pardon of all transgression and the removal
of the whole body of sin and death. . . . This, then, is what I plead

...

Post by Dave
depravity of the human heart, they know that just because they are not
conscious of failure does not mean that they are free from it. If the
truth is "in" them as a controlling, motivating influence, this kind
of self-deception will not take place. Whether someone claims to be
"without sin" for a brief period of time or claims it as a permanent
attainment, the claim is false.

...

You are taking this out of context! This is referring to those who
have not accepted Jesus into their heart. "If we confess our sins, he
is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from
all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 Be careful - misrepresenting the
Word of God is a very serious crime against Jehovah God.

[Dave]

Post by Just Visiting
...

Post by Dave
depravity of the human heart, they know that just because they are not
conscious of failure does not mean that they are free from it. If the
truth is "in" them as a controlling, motivating influence, this kind
of self-deception will not take place. Whether someone claims to be
"without sin" for a brief period of time or claims it as a permanent
attainment, the claim is false.

...
You are taking this out of context! This is referring to those who
have not accepted Jesus into their heart. "If we confess our sins, he
is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from
all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 =A0Be careful - misrepresenting the
Word of God is a very serious crime against Jehovah God.

I presume that "you" above refers to me, and that "this" above refers
to my quotation of 1 Jn 1:8. I am not using 1 Jn 1:8 incorrectly,
because 1 John is written to Christians. In 1 Jn. 1:8, John warns
believers against the self-deluding concept that when a believer is
experiencing true fellowship with God he may be tempted to say that he
is, at that moment at least, free from sin.

Dave

[Dave]

Post by AJA

Post by Dave
Of course Christians sin. "If we say that we have no sin, we are
deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). If
Christians understand the truth that God's Word teaches about the
depravity of the human heart, they know that just because they are not
conscious of failure does not mean that they are free from it. If the
truth is "in" them as a controlling, motivating influence, this kind
of self-deception will not take place. Whether someone claims to be
"without sin" for a brief period of time or claims it as a permanent
attainment, the claim is false.

As a friend of mine, a Methodist pastor, says,
What we currently have in popular evangelical Christianity is an unhappy m=

ix

Post by AJA
of Calvinism and Arminianism. On the one hand, folks feel they are saved b=

y

Post by AJA
faith & can never be lost, on the other they think they =A0sin every day i=

n

Post by AJA
thought, word, and deed. =A0So, =A0salvation =A0is understood as status wi=

th God

Post by AJA
and special privileges: =A0Christians aren t perfect [they say], they re j=

ust

Post by AJA
forgiven. =A0But, the message of "holiness of heart and life" is rarely he=

ard.

Post by AJA
Or, if it is, it is in the form of an unhealthy legalism.

But salvation, or more specifically justification, _is_ a status
Christians have with God, in which he declares them justified before
Him. We are justified by faith, not by sinlessness. If we could be
justified by sinlessness, then Christ would not have had to die.

Dave

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by those...we
learn.

Speaking of mistakes, you make quite a few in this short post. But I will focus
on only one: 'sinning' is NOT the same as "making mistakes". You are confusing
the etymology of th word with the current meaning.

[Matthew Johnson]

In article <LOiDj.12547$***@trnddc02>, ***@gmail.com
says...
[snip]

Post by B***@gmail.com
The Bible says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us."

Yes, you got that right.

Post by B***@gmail.com
These words were written by the apostle John in I John 1:8. The Bible
teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and
therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God. John addressed
this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no
need of a Saviour.

You missed soemthing here: he was writing it to _Christians_ who believed all
this.

Post by B***@gmail.com
This is not referring to someone that has been born
again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed "from all
unrighteousness" (I Jn. 1:9).

Why are you so sure of this? The whole epistle is addressed to Christians.
Why are you making such an exception fro this one verse?

Post by B***@gmail.com
John said, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn.
". . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I
Jn. 1:7.

You say it is "clearly declared", yet you miss the meaning! Why are all these
verbs _present_ tense? What is the significance of this tense?

Post by B***@gmail.com
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a
liar, and the truth is not in him." I Jn. 2:4.

Here again: why are all these verbs _present_ tense? What is the significance of
this tense?

Post by B***@gmail.com
"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins...Whosoever
abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that
doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that
committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the
beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth
not commit sin...In this the children of God are manifest and the
children of the devil . . ." I Jn. 3:5-10.

Again: why are all these verbs _present_ tense? What is the significance of this
tense? What is the meaning of the _contrast_ between all these present tenses
and the aorist 'manifested' and 'take away'?

Post by B***@gmail.com
The apostle's message is clear and is in accordance with other New
Testament writers.

His is. Your interpretation of it, OTOH, is clearly contradictory to the other
NT writers.

[Matthew Johnson]

In article <JOiDj.12541$***@trnddc02>, AJA says...
[snip]

Post by AJA
As a friend of mine, a Methodist pastor, says,
What we currently have in popular evangelical Christianity is an unhappy mix
of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Which mix like oil and water:(

Post by AJA
On the one hand, folks feel they are saved by
faith & can never be lost, on the other they think they sin every day in
thought, word, and deed. So, salvation is understood as status with God
and special privileges: Christians aren't perfect [they say], they re just
forgiven.

Like the bumper-sticker says.

Post by AJA
But, the message of "holiness of heart and life" is rarely heard.
Or, if it is, it is in the form of an unhealthy legalism.

Ah, but this is the problem: because so many people can conceive of salvation
_only_ in terms of the false dichotomy between Calvinism and Arminianism, they
feel compelled to count themselves as member of one or the other camp. This in
turn means they feel compelled to follow either the bumper sticker or legalism.

It is to try to show a third way that I put so much effort into opposing
Calvinism in the threads on "free-will" (in this NG and in SRC.B-S) and even
translated a large part of St. Symeon's sermon on this _very_ topic in msg-id

Post by AJA
What is needed is teaching and awareness of the "fullness of God's love" for
http://web.mac.com/craigadams1/Commonplace_Holiness/Blog/Entries/2008/3/10_Our_Mission%2C_Our_Glory%2C_Our_Power..html

I saw the website, I don't see the teaching and awareness there.

[Dave]

Post by B***@gmail.com
The Bible says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us."
These words were written by the apostle John in I John 1:8. The Bible
teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and
therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God. John addressed
this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no
need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born
again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed "from all
unrighteousness" (I Jn. 1:9).
John said, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn.
". . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I
Jn. 1:7.
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a
liar, and the truth is not in him." I Jn. 2:4.
"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins...Whosoever
abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that
doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that
committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the
beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth
not commit sin...In this the children of God are manifest and the
children of the devil . . ." I Jn. 3:5-10.
The apostle's message is clear and is in accordance with other New
Testament writers. Those who would try to use I John 1:8 to uphold
their sinning religion, wrest it to their own destruction and contrary
to the tenure of all the scriptures.

If I am interpreting you correctly, you are saying that Christians do
not sin, and those who sin are not Christians. If you are a Christian,
then you must be a very spiritual person, because your rule
disqualifies even the Apostle Paul, who writes that he is "of flesh,
sold into bondage to sin." In Romans 7:14-25, Paul deals with his two
conflicting natures, concluding that "on the one hand I myself with my
mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the
law of sin."

Dave

[**Rowland Croucher**]

<>

Post by Dave
If I am interpreting you correctly, you are saying that Christians do
not sin, and those who sin are not Christians. If you are a Christian,
then you must be a very spiritual person, because your rule
disqualifies even the Apostle Paul, who writes that he is "of flesh,
sold into bondage to sin." In Romans 7:14-25, Paul deals with his two
conflicting natures, concluding that "on the one hand I myself with my
mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the
law of sin."
Dave

And I'd like to know where this non-sinning person lives so that I can

(a) corroborate their sanctity with their spouse

(b) if it is true, worship them :-)
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)

Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/

Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/

[Doodle]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by those...we
learn.

Speaking of mistakes, you make quite a few in this short post. But I will
focus
on only one: 'sinning' is NOT the same as "making mistakes". You are
confusing
the etymology of th word with the current meaning.

.....or he is saying that when most Christians sin....they are making a
mistake.

I think his meaning was clear.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by those...we
learn.

Speaking of mistakes, you make quite a few in this short post. But I will
focus
on only one: 'sinning' is NOT the same as "making mistakes". You are
confusing
the etymology of th word with the current meaning.

.....or he is saying that when most Christians sin....they are making a
mistake.
I think his meaning was clear.

First of all, it is 'her', not 'his'. More importantly, her 'meaning' is clearly
WRONG.

'Sin' is NOT just a form of 'mistake'. Some mistakes are sins, but not all sins
are mistakes, neither are mistakes in general sins. There are guiltless
mistakes. They are even the majority of mistakes.

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by B***@gmail.com
The Bible says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us."
These words were written by the apostle John in I John 1:8. The Bible
teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and
therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God. John addressed
this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no
need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born
again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed "from all
unrighteousness" (I Jn. 1:9).

You confuse standing with state, position with practice. 1st Jn was
written to and circulated among the churches, i.e. christians. The
scriptures also state that we are seated in the heavenlies with
Christ. I suppose that is where you are writing these things from!

[l***@hotmail.com]

On Mar 16, 7:19=A0pm, **Rowland Croucher**

Post by **Rowland Croucher**
And after 12 years and posting 56,560 times on Usenet

Well I guess that settles it. The man behind the curtain? pay no
attention to him.

[AJA]

Post by Matthew Johnson
It is to try to show a third way

Enjoying your posts so much these days Matthew. I apologize in advance, but
I don't remember what you have written about the "third way". Could you
summarize what that way is for us?
Blessings,
Ann Ahnemann

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by AJA

Post by Matthew Johnson
It is to try to show a third way

Enjoying your posts so much these days Matthew.

Thanks for the note of appreciation.

Post by AJA
I apologize in advance, but
I don't remember what you have written about the "third way". Could you
summarize what that way is for us?

I did not use the exact phrase "third way", at least not that I recall. So a
simple Google search would not turn it up. However, there were many posts.
Probably the best and most complete is my hasty translation of a sermon of St.
Symeon the New Theologian, which Google lists as being at message-id:

<8C82637B-F793-36F0-12D3-***@art.srcbs.org>

I also commented somewhere that even St. Augustine, who is usually upheld as the
champion of predestination, admitted that Scripture also teaches free-will, and
realized that he could not reconcile the two. But instead of letting
predestination overrule free-will, he simply stopped there, realizing he was
facing a line he must not cross. This too, is the third way (if not a fourth:
I'll let you read the St. Symeon sermon and decide).

Today's predestinarians do not show this holy restraint.

[A Brown]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by those...we
learn.

Speaking of mistakes, you make quite a few in this short post. But I
will focus on only one: 'sinning' is NOT the same as "making mistakes". You are
confusing the etymology of th word with the current meaning.

.....or he is saying that when most Christians sin....they are making a
mistake.
I think his meaning was clear.

First of all, it is 'her', not 'his'.

Whatever....

Post by Matthew Johnson
More importantly, her 'meaning' is clearly
WRONG.

That's your opinion....but the rest of us got his meaning.

He was quite clear.

[Doodle]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by those...we
learn.

Speaking of mistakes, you make quite a few in this short post. But I
will
focus
on only one: 'sinning' is NOT the same as "making mistakes". You are
confusing
the etymology of th word with the current meaning.

.....or he is saying that when most Christians sin....they are making a
mistake.
I think his meaning was clear.

First of all, it is 'her', not 'his'. More importantly, her 'meaning' is
clearly
WRONG.

Not neccessarily.

When Christians sin, it can be considered a mistake.

(It's like saying "All vegetables have seeds...but not all things with seeds
are vegetables.)

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by those...we
learn.

Speaking of mistakes, you make quite a few in this short post. But I
will
focus
on only one: 'sinning' is NOT the same as "making mistakes". You are
confusing
the etymology of th word with the current meaning.

.....or he is saying that when most Christians sin....they are making a
mistake.
I think his meaning was clear.

First of all, it is 'her', not 'his'. More importantly, her 'meaning' is
clearly
WRONG.

Not neccessarily.

Yes, necessarily.

Post by Doodle
When Christians sin, it can be considered a mistake.

Unfortunately no, not every sin Christians commit is a mere mistake.

Post by Doodle
(It's like saying "All vegetables have seeds...but not all things with seeds
are vegetables.)

No, it is not, as I already proved in my reply to Brenda.

Now let us consider, for example, what you did in replying to this post. Since
you are repeating an already disproven idea, you could have made a mere simple
mistake, but you could have sinned, too. How so? Because you really did have a
moral obligation to read my reply to Brenda _thoroughly_ before you replied. Yet
it appears you did not do so. After all, if you _had_ done so, you would have
known better -- unless you simply did not understand.

So you might have sinned, or you might not. I can't tell you which. You will
have to make up your mind yourself. Can _you_ choose wisely?

[A Brown]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a
human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by
those...we
learn.

Speaking of mistakes, you make quite a few in this short post. But I
will
focus
on only one: 'sinning' is NOT the same as "making mistakes". You are
confusing
the etymology of th word with the current meaning.

.....or he is saying that when most Christians sin....they are making a
mistake.
I think his meaning was clear.

First of all, it is 'her', not 'his'. More importantly, her 'meaning' is
clearly
WRONG.

Not neccessarily.

Yes, necessarily.

This appears to be another one of your posts begging for an argument.

Unless you understand that others come to differing conlusions...then you
will start the same trouble on the board you caused previously.

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle
When Christians sin, it can be considered a mistake.

Unfortunately no, not every sin Christians commit is a mere mistake.

It can be a mistake....wther they know it or not. A mistake in
judgement...a mistake of the will...a mistake of the flesh.

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle
(It's like saying "All vegetables have seeds...but not all things with
seeds
are vegetables.)

No, it is not, as I already proved in my reply to Brenda.

Well, your reply to Brenda was not accepted by everyone.

Here we go again!

No one's else's understanding can be considered if it conflicts with
yours...right?

You enjoy speaking down to people....and it does nothing to further
converstaion and discussion.

[AJA]

Post by Matthew Johnson
It is to try to show a third way that I put so much effort into opposing
Calvinism in the threads on "free-will" (in this NG and in SRC.B-S) and
even
translated a large part of St. Symeon's sermon on this _very_ topic in
msg-id

Thank you, Matthew. I'll have to re-read the sermon, but at first blush it
seems a good "third way". Also I saw the posts about the 'controversy'
about predestination. I remembered those discussions of past days.
And by the way, I'd be interested in hearing from you how one knows one is
saved, if indeed that is possible. We sing Blessed Assurance, etc., as you
know.
Thanks again.
Blessings,
Ann

[RP]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Doodle

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by B.G. Kent
Yes we do...sinning is to make a mistake and I've not once seen a
human
being...Christian or not..that does not make mistakes and by
those...we
learn.

Speaking of mistakes, you make quite a few in this short post. But I
will
focus
on only one: 'sinning' is NOT the same as "making mistakes". You are
confusing
the etymology of th word with the current meaning.

.....or he is saying that when most Christians sin....they are making a
mistake.
I think his meaning was clear.

First of all, it is 'her', not 'his'. More importantly, her 'meaning' is
clearly
WRONG.

Not neccessarily.

Yes, necessarily.

is this yes/no...i'm right/youre wrong...only my conclusions are right going
to start up again?

i thought we were going to have more respect for others in order to make
this discussion group a little more civil....

Post by Matthew Johnson
No, it is not, as I already proved in my reply to Brenda.

u just dont get this do you matthew....your reasonings and rationale makes
it sufficent proof for you....but not every thinking person agrees with your
rationale.

and here i though this group was at a milestone....


praise the lord....for He is good.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by AJA

Post by Matthew Johnson
It is to try to show a third way that I put so much effort into opposing
Calvinism in the threads on "free-will" (in this NG and in SRC.B-S) and
even
translated a large part of St. Symeon's sermon on this _very_ topic in
msg-id

Thank you, Matthew. I'll have to re-read the sermon, but at first blush it
seems a good "third way". Also I saw the posts about the 'controversy'
about predestination. I remembered those discussions of past days.
And by the way, I'd be interested in hearing from you how one knows one is
saved, if indeed that is possible.

You know when you hear His voice saying:

'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the
foundation of the world...'
(Mat 25:34 RSVA)

Until then, it is for our own benefit that the knowledge is kept from us.

Post by AJA
We sing Blessed Assurance, etc., as you
know.

Actually, I don't even know which 'we' sing this. We certainly do not. We sing
something quite different, such as the 'samoglasen' this last Sunday:

Thanking with the Publican we cry out, "you who suffered for us, yet remained
God without passion save us from our passions and save our souls"
[fm http://days.pravoslavie.ru/design/canon.php?id=358]

Post by AJA
Thanks again.

You are welcome.

[Catherine Jefferson]

<delurk>

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by AJA

Post by Matthew Johnson
It is to try to show a third way that I put so much effort into opposing
Calvinism in the threads on "free-will" (in this NG and in SRC.B-S) and
even translated a large part of St. Symeon's sermon on this _very_ topic in

Very much worth the trouble to look up. For those who'd rather not dig
through Message-ID headers, here's a link to this post in the Google
Groups Usenet Archive:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.christian.bible-study/msg/7afd926dbdc7f9df?hl=en

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by AJA
Thank you, Matthew. I'll have to re-read the sermon, but at first blush it
seems a good "third way". Also I saw the posts about the 'controversy'
about predestination. I remembered those discussions of past days.
And by the way, I'd be interested in hearing from you how one knows one is
saved, if indeed that is possible.

'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the
foundation of the world...'
(Mat 25:34 RSVA)
Until then, it is for our own benefit that the knowledge is kept from us.

I'm not sure this is true, at least not for everybody. Some of the
saints were entirely confident of their salvation, in some cases long
before they died. A person who really gets it that "All have sinned,
and fallen short of the Glory of God," and who is therefore proof
against being tempted to spiritual pride might well be entirely (and
safely) confident that God will not abandon him or her. If you accept
that we all have the freedom to choose to submit to God or reject Him,
it's still theoretically possible that such a person would choose to
reject God after submitting to Him so thoroughly that they truly known
Him, but that would constitute what Aristotle called an "improbable
possibility".

Unfortunately neither my humility nor my faith are at that point, so I
can only speculate. <wry grin>

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by AJA
We sing Blessed Assurance, etc., as you
know.

Actually, I don't even know which 'we' sing this. We certainly do not.

AJA, Matthew was raised as a Roman Catholic and became an Orthodox
Christian in college. What little familiarity he has with Protestant
hymns was probably in the Christian Fellowship group at our college. (We
went to the same college as undergraduates more years ago than I care to
remember now.) "Blessed Assurance" is, I believe, specifically an
Evangelical hymn (originally Baptist, perhaps?). So don't expect
everyone to recognize it. :)

By the way, I'm also an Orthodox Christian. I was raised in a
non-religious household, and came to Orthodox Christianity after some
years in the Churches of Christ (the American Restorationist group, not
the group Barack Obama is part of). I am familiar with that hymn. It's
beautiful, and I think can be true for at least some of us, but from an
Orthodox Christian point of view it is easily misunderstood and can lead
people astray if misunderstood.

Post by Matthew Johnson
We sing
Thanking with the Publican we cry out, "you who suffered for us, yet remained
God without passion save us from our passions and save our souls"
[fm http://days.pravoslavie.ru/design/canon.php?id=358]

One thing I love about being an Orthodox Christian is that we really
embrace the vision of the Church that St. Paul (or perhaps a disciple of
his) provides in Hebrews 11. We ask the saints for their prayers. ;)

Under His mercy,

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Catherine Jefferson
<delurk>

[snip]

Post by Catherine Jefferson

Post by Matthew Johnson
Until then, it is for our own benefit that the knowledge is kept from us.

I'm not sure this is true, at least not for everybody.

What I said was almost a direct quote from the Ladder of Divine Ascent! How
could it then _not_ be true?

Post by Catherine Jefferson
Some of the
saints were entirely confident of their salvation,

Who? I can't think of even one. Apparently neither could St. John Climacus.

[snip]

[curmudgeon]

"All have sinned, and come short of the glory of GOD."

Romans 3:23