Discussion:
When I realized all religions are man made,
(too old to reply)
m***@yahoo.com
2006-07-03 01:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Self-evident truths
(Caveat: Whatever is self-evident for me is not necessarily
self-evident for someone else)

1. All religions are man made

2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Nowhere in the long line of evolution was the 'soul' suddenly
inserted in a certain species at a discrete point.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being e.g. 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul, etc., etc.
We cannot. This means:

All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't think that a worm has a soul, I conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being must be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we want to believe that we
or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul' will live forever, i.e. is
immortal.

3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are man made, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are man made. They were created when
social groups evolved culturally, to keep individual behavior in line
and within boundaries so as to be beneficial to the group or to its
leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.

4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.

That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human beings suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).

5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved through accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 5 billion on earth are
not Christians, it is illogical to assume that God automatically
condemns 5 billion (out of 6.5 billion) to hell = eternal suffering.

6. All religions are man made, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society evolves beliefs about life and
death, which then often evolve into absolute beliefs and then often
into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
many religions, so many spin-offs of existing religions and why so
many new spin-offs are created all the time all over the world.

7. As all religions and spin-offs are man made, the concept of 'God'
is man made.

As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that a God like the
Christian God (who controls, guards and interferes) exists.

EITHER GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.

There is no God applying extra material forces on or into our physical
environment. That means all physical and chemical occurrances can
be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter.

Example:
In the recent tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour. God did not do it. Satan did not do it.
Humans did not do it. The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates
to move, which occasionaly rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then cause terrible natural
catastrophes such as the recent tsunami.
Nowhere did the 'hand of God' act anywhere.

8. The mystery of matter and why we exist does not mean we have
to assume an all powerful being like the Christian God
(or for that matter a similar God as in Islam and Judaism).

In the last 500 years more and more mysteries have been explained,
and in the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will
be resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, and away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions consist of a
hodgepodge of man made legends, philosophies, myths, theories, etc.,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and
rational explanations.

That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and our existence. However Christianity cannot
're-engineer' itself, it cannot offer a science-based explanation of
life or reform itself into a much more rational philosophy of life.

It will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men that lived hundreds
or even thousands of years ago.

So it will slowly die. I am not saying that the human need
for spirituality will disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of
religions such as Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) will
become less and less acceptable to more and more people.

The core issue is a direct conflict between:

o the religious/emotional approach or persona and

o the scientific/rational approach or persona

Spirituality will stay, but dogmatic religions based on ancient
and mythical beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or un-enlightened.

There may be temporary religious revivals and reactions but there
is no doubt in my mind that on longer terms science and associated
education will (albeit slowly) bury ancient belief systems.

That is also why so many religions, including Christianity,
in their core are so anti-science. They can never embrace a much
more rational belief system that so clearly exposes the fallacies
in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra
B.G. Kent
2006-07-04 04:53:27 UTC
Permalink
That is also why so many religions, including Christianity,
in their core are so anti-science. They can never embrace a much
more rational belief system that so clearly exposes the fallacies
in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra


B - and yet I am a Christian and embrace science very much so...but I have
a balance in my beliefs...I don't make science or the Bible..my God
either.

Bren
Matthew Johnson
2006-07-05 03:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Self-evident truths
And as usual, what you proclaim is neither 'self-evident', nor
'truth'.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
(Caveat: Whatever is self-evident for me is not necessarily
self-evident for someone else)
A useless caveat. If it really were 'self-evident', it would be
self-evident to all, just as the axioms of Euclid.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
1. All religions are man made
This is a radically ignorant assumption, not a truth at all.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
How would you know? You don't even know what the concept even IS. You
show this with each of your posts mis-titled "Self-evident truths". So
you are in no position to know.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Why? Nowhere in the long line of evolution was the 'soul' suddenly
inserted in a certain species at a discrete point.
Another radical assumption.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living being
e.g. 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his or her father
and mother did not have a soul, etc., etc. We cannot.
Why not?
Your premise is worthless, therefore, so is your conclusion.

[snip]

And therefore so is the rest of your post.
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2006-07-05 03:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.com
That is also why so many religions, including Christianity,
in their core are so anti-science. They can never embrace a much
more rational belief system that so clearly exposes the fallacies
in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra
B - and yet I am a Christian and embrace science very much so...
Hey, wait a minute: weren't you the one who just complained about somebody else
not indicating quotations correctly? The term you used was "cut-and-paste" (not
quite the right word anyway).

But here you have done the same thing: yes, you _included_ his quotation, but
you have ignored the Usenet quotation, and failed to substitute an equally
effective method of marking others's quotes.

[snip]

And more importantly, as I have pointed out so often, and as _others_ have also
pointed out, what you call 'christianity' is SO different from what everybody
else calls 'christianity', that it is brazen dishonesty for you to call yourself
'christian'. So your refutation of Michael's nonsense is itself just different
nonsense.
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
b***@juno.com
2006-07-05 03:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Self-evident truths
(Caveat: Whatever is self-evident for me is not necessarily
self-evident for someone else)
Oh yeah? Well, I hereby declare black to be white! It is self evident
to me that black is white! Just because it's not self-evident to you,
doesn't mean it is not self evident that black is white!

You really should delete this non-sequitur from your post. Unless your
post is meant as a self-satire.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
EITHER GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
God was dead. But He rose again.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
That is also why so many religions, including Christianity,
in their core are so anti-science. They can never embrace a much
more rational belief system that so clearly exposes the fallacies
in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra
Christianity is the very FOUNDATION of science. Science could never
have arisen in any other matrix than Christianity.

Science is mono-theistic in nature. I have so many reasons for this,
that I can discuss if you are interested. But the most basic idea is
this:

Why are there any scientific laws whatsoever? Scientific laws
themselves need to be explained. Why is there such a thing as
gravitation? Why is there such a thing as any scientific law anywhere?
Why does matter exist? Why do material particles exhibit
rational/scientifically testable behavior?

Imagine if there was an engineer who studied a new factory. The
engineer learns that everything in the factory is driven by two
rotating shafts coming out of the wall. Then, the engineer decides that
the rotating shafts coming out of the wall need no explanation. "They
are just there," says the engineer. "I feel no need to explain them."

Imagine if there was an atheist who studied the universe. The atheist
learns that everything in the universe is driven by gravitation and
other scientific laws. Then, the atheist decides that the scientific
laws need no explanation. "They are just there," says the atheist. "I
feel no need to explain them."



Imagine if you found a book lying on a table. You start to read it, and
you are moved to tears by its beauty. You also notice that the book is
written according to laws of grammar and spelling. The book was written
ACCORDING to the laws of grammar and spelling........ but was the book
written BY these laws and spelling, with no author required?

Imagine if you found a universe lying upon an infinite void. You start
to study it, and you are moved to tears by its beauty. You also notice
that the universe is written according to laws of gravitation and other
scientific laws. The universe was written ACCORDING to the laws of
gravitation and other scientific laws........ but was the universe
written BY these scientific laws, with no author required?

BOTH THE BOOK AND THE UNIVERSE REQUIRE AN AUTHOR!

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