Post by Denis GironPost by Matthew JohnsonPost by Denis GironActually, if I am not mistaken, while Augustine did not lay out an
explicit doctrine of purgatory, his understanding of Matthew 12:32
put forth a doctrine roughly similar.
A reference would be nice.
My apologies for taking so long to get back to you.
The time it took has got to be a record even for this NG;)
Post by Denis GironBefore I give the reference, let me again say that this does not
justify purgatory by Orthodox standards.
OK, it is good to see that you realize this. The term
'purgatory-esque' does leave room to be understood either way.
Post by Denis GironIt is more addressing a doctrine that most Evangelical Protestants
consider ridiculous or unbiblical, and is, by their standard,
purgatory-esque. Here is the quote from City of God, book XXI,
"As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to
whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the
dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of
the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not
remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it
could not be truly said, 'They shall not be forgiven, neither in this
world, neither in that which is to come.'"
'Purgatory-esque' is a pretty good description of that passage. And he
is quite close to St. Mark of Ephesus here. But note one major
difference right away (from the later Roman Catholic doctrine): he
said "acquittal from the punishment of _the eternal_ fire". No
separate fire for Purgatory is mentioned. Instead, it is the same
eternal fire Christ spoke of in the Gospels, which can only be the
fire of hell.
And another difference: the _grounds_ for the 'acquital' and
'remission' is not mentioned. The passage does _not_ say that the
grounds are 'purgatorial', i.e., cleansing. I am assuming that you
know the name 'purgatory' comes from the verb for 'cleansing' in
Latin;)
Post by Denis GironAlso, in the 13th chapter of the same book, Augustine speaks against
those who consider all punishments to be "purgatorial," and later in
the chapter he talks of punishments which are temporary rather than
eternal. I confess upfront that I could be reading too much into the
text, but I take that to mean that Augustine considered *some* post-
mortem punishments to be "purgatorial," but I do not mean to imply
that this is necessarily the same as the RC doctrine of purgatory.
I think you are reading him mostly correctly in that the punishments
are temporary. But not 'purgatorial', since he doesn't explain _why_
they are temporary, or what is accomplished by them. But he really
does say:
Sed temporarias poenas alii in hac vita tantum, alii post mortem, alii
et nunc et tunc, verum tamen ante iudicium illud severissimum
novissimumque patiuntur. Non autem omnes veniunt in sempiternas
poenas, quae post illud iudicium sunt futurae, qui post mortem
sustinent temporales. Nam quibusdam, quod in isto non remittitur,
remitti in futuro saeculo, id est, ne futuri saeculi aeterno supplicio
puniantur, iam supra diximus.
[fm http://www.augustinus.it/latino/cdd/index2.htm]
Or, for the Latin-deprived;): But some will suffer the temporary
punishments, some in this life only, others after death, others both
now and then, truly however before that most severe Last Judgment will
they suffer them. Not all will come into eternal punishment, which
[punishments] will be in the future, who after death suffer temporary
punishments. For some, who do not receive remission [from sins] in
this life, will receive it in the future age, that is, they will not
be punished with eternal punishment, as we said above.
This is the passage used by St. Mark of Ephesus in
http://pagez.ru/lsn/0264.php to show that St. Augustine supported a
certain idea of temporary punishment for _some_ sinners, but not a
definite, distinct place that could be called 'purgatory', nor that
the punishments were 'purgatorial (cleansing)'.
Yet he didn't go into this passage from Augustine very deeply, using
it mainly to disprove the then Roman claim that 1 Cor 3:15 refers to
Purgatory. He also referred to Chrysostom's commentary on this
verse. If your French is better than your Russian, you can find it in
French translation at
http://www.abbaye-saint-benoit.ch/saints/chrysostome/index.htm.
Likewise, it sould be a good idea to look at Chrysostom's commentary
on the other "proof-texts" for Purgatory (and other relevant verses),
ie., 1 Cor 3:11-15, Mat 25:46, John 5:29. Another idea: at
http://www.tcgalaska.com/glt/ I once found bilingual (Greek/English)
texts for the services. If you can find the service for the Kneeling
Prayers on Pentecost (listed on the calendar as Monday Matins), you
can find the prayers St. Mark of Ephesus refers to in English. These
show what we hope for out of the intercessions for the dead.
Post by Denis GironPost by Matthew JohnsonWell, so did some Orthodox saints. In particular, I was surprised
to learn that St. Mark of Ephesus, a staunch opponent of the Roman
dogma of Purgatory, nevertheless taught that intercessions for the
deceased can raise them from their place of punishment to Paradise
(http://pagez.ru/lsn/0270.php).
Actually, there are _two_ works by St. Mark on Purgatory at this site:
I gave the URL for the wrong one. I should have given
http://pagez.ru/lsn/0264.php.
Post by Denis GironPost by Matthew JohnsonBut please notice the difference: they did not teach _Purgatory_,
they taught something only a _little_ "purgatory-esque".
Right, hence the reason I offered the clarification I did in my post,
noting that these doctrines are "purgayory-esque" (in the sense that
an Evangelical Protestant would find them too close to the doctrine
of purgatory, though the Orthodox would not consider it such).
But this provides me with an opportunity to ask a question: what
exactly is the Orthodox objection to the Roman Catholic doctrine of
purgatory?
To answer that, I am going to have to read the rest of
http://pagez.ru/lsn/0264.php more closely, which could take some
time;) But I have been able so summarize the chief objections in this
post.
Post by Denis GironWhere does the Orthodox[?] doctrine of intercessions for
the deceased raising them from their place of punishment end, and the
RC doctrine of purgatory begin?
In two ways: 1) claiming a specific place for the purging,
'purgatory', separate from hell and 2) claiming that the merits of the
church militant have anything to do with the 'raising'.
Post by Denis GironI have seen on the Orthodox Info website an article which put a lot
of focus on whether the temporary punishment will involve fire (as
Gregory of Nyssa seemed to think),
I don't recommend this website. Although I have occasionally found
good material there, I have also found a lot of misleading things
there, too. So I prefer http://www.goarch.org/, for those who only
read English.
As far as I can tell, the people doing that website are not associated
with any canonical jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church. This gives
their work somewhat of a sectarian, schismatic tinge. There are more
reliable sites out there, sites without such a tinge, such as
http://www.goarch.org/.
And indeed, this issue seems to be a perfect case in point. St. Mark's
objection had little or nothing to do with whether or not it was
'fire'. Instead, he was much more concerned about the notion of stored
merits, i.e., people still living accumulating merit by which the
punishments of those in 'purgatory' were shortened. Both Evangelicals
and Orthodox have problems with _this_ idea. I wouldn't be surprised
to find that many modern Catholic thologians reject it too. But I
don't follow them that closely.
Post by Denis Gironbut I am not certain the Roman Catholic doctrine officially requires
that it involve fire.
It might not today, but in the heyday of the disputes between Orthodox
and Roman Catholic, it certainly did.
Post by Denis GironAside from that, an Orthodox gentleman I discussed this with over
e-mail offered the objection that in the Roman Catholic doctrine of
purgatory, patristic support ultimately took a back seat to logic and
philosophy.
?? That is a surprising claim. St. Mark says something different,
namely (comparing intererpretations of 1 Cor 3:15): "do you see, how
superficially your Teachers touch on the sense, and how they do not
penetrate deeply into its sense, as do St. John Chrysostom and the
Theologian (St. Gregory the Theologian), and the other Ecumenical
Luminaries of the Church?"
[fm http://pagez.ru/lsn/0264.php]
I wish I had time to translate this entire page, but of course, that
is not likely to happen any time soon.
Post by Denis GironI look forward to what you can share on the issue of what exactly the
Orthodox objection to the RC doctrine of purgatory is.
It is mainly the way 'merits' are handled. But as I already mentioned,
St. Mark of Ephesus also objects to a place separate from hell,
especially if, as some insisted, it is perceived to last after the
Last Judgement.
Post by Denis GironLet me note that I have looked at the divide between Protestantism
and Orthodoxy/Catholicism, and found it easy to sympathize with the
later, but when investigating the divide between Orthodoxy and Roman
Catholicism, I find myself a bit too ignorant and simple at this time
to fully comprehend the disputes.
Don't feel too intimidated by this. It _is_ hard to explain,
especially when, as is certainly currently the case, the divide is
heavily colord by a sharp cultural divide between the sphere of
influence of the old Eastern Empire, and that of the Western.
Let me dwell on this point a little bit, since I am sure it is far
from obvious. Despite the widespread homogenization of world culture
due to the spread of the market economy and 'globalization', there is
still a substantial cultural divide between the West on the one hand,
and all the countries that used to be under the influence (or direct
rule) of the Byzantine Empire. This includes most of Europe east of
Prague (but the border is a mess), and also the Eastern Mediterranean.
This is why, for example, the entire Orthodox East greeted the bombing
of Yugoslavia with shock and disbelief (even in Ukraine, which is
quite friendly to the US, they prayed for the deliverance of Serbia
from the "slaves of hell" i.e. NATO troops), while the entire West saw
no other alternative to stop the massive human rights abuses of the
Yugoslav (Serbian) government. This is the cultural divide, enforced
by long dark years of subjugation under Ottoman rule -- (which few in
the West ever experienced) which still keeps surprising us.
Post by Denis GironThe issue of purgatory is one I am especially baffled by (perhapse
because I started looking at the issue the way a Protestant might
look at it, e.g. prayers for the dead and post-mortem forgiveness
equals purgatory). So I look forward to any help you can offer
(especially in the way of book or website recommendations).
I think part of what is going on here is related to what you just
mentioned: that you easily sympathize with the Orthodox/Catholic when
considering the divide between Protestant and "Orthodox/Catholic", but
see the divide between Orthodox and Catholic harder to understand and
sympathize with. For the difference between Protestant and
"Orthodox/Catholic" concerning _all_ the beliefs concerning death and
judgment is much larger than the difference between Orthodox and
Catholic. But the difference between Orthodox and Catholic, though
important, is subtle. So it is not really surprising that in a world
split much more by the difference between Protestant and Other, the
difference between Orthodox and Catholic looks small, even quibbling.
--
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Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)