Discussion:
Mother Sacrified Children to God?
(too old to reply)
qquito
2006-11-14 04:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Hello, Everyone:

Many people have heard the story about a mother in San Francisco who
dropped his three children, aged 16 months, 2 and 6, respectively, into
the chilly sea to drown them. (Full story at
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Nov12/0,4670,ChildreninBay,00.html).

The mother said that God commanded her to do so and believed that they
went to Heaven.

If Christians's experiences with God are personal and private, as they
are alledged to be, and other people have no say in it, then we can
only say that this God's communication with this mother is true.
Otherwise, we are denying her experience with God and speaking for her
and God.

If we can quesion the truthfulness of her communication with God, then
we can equally question other believers alleged experiences with God,
including those of pastors, theologists, and even the Pope, and even
the authors of the Bible.

Don't say that God would not request such a thing. Or you are judging
God with your partial knowledge of God. In fact, God has personally
killed the baby of David and Bathsheba.

Then, should we charge her with a crime because she acted on God's
call?

Thanks for reading and replying.

--Roland
B.G. Kent
2006-11-15 00:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by qquito
If Christians's experiences with God are personal and private, as they
are alledged to be, and other people have no say in it, then we can
only say that this God's communication with this mother is true.
Otherwise, we are denying her experience with God and speaking for her
and God.
B - But what of the children's communication and connection with God?
don't they have a say too?

Bren
qquito
2006-11-17 04:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Well, Abraham, the righteous Biblical patriarch, was ready to
sacrifice his son regardless of his son's communication with God.
--Roland
......
B - But what of the children's communication and connection with God?
don't they have a say too?
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-11-20 01:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by qquito
Well, Abraham, the righteous Biblical patriarch, was ready to
sacrifice his son regardless of his son's communication with God.
Roland
B - that's sad...really...I find that very sad.

Blessings
Bren
r***@yahoo.com
2006-11-15 00:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by qquito
If Christians's experiences with God are personal and private, as they
are alledged to be, and other people have no say in it, then we can
only say that this God's communication with this mother is true.
Otherwise, we are denying her experience with God and speaking for her
and God.
While Christian experiences with God are personal in a way, they are
also grounded in a context.
The context of who God is, and who he has revealed himself to be gives
us some right to judge if an individual is in line with that. The
context that God is grounded in [at least for christians] is the Bible.
When the bible says that God doesn't change, then we accept that he
doesn't change.
If he says don't murder, then we accept he means don't murder.
If then some individual tells us that God has told him/her to murder
when God previously said not to, and we know he doesn't change, then
we have a right to question from where this supposed experience came
from.

So basically, from a logic point, your first premise is wrong.
While Christian experience is personal in that God will reveal himself
to individuals, it is not exclusively personal to each individual, it
is grounded in a context of revelation. Otherwise it becomes
self-defeating.

Good question for Bren though, who has stripped "Christianity" of
any context other than what the individual's inner discernment tells
them. And I think that she would find this a difficult thing to deal
with given the implications of her own philosophy. At least if she has
considered the implications of her own philosophy.....
How would she defend this woman's inner Christ telling her to do
something like this?
Post by qquito
If we can quesion the truthfulness of her communication with God, then
we can equally question other believers alleged experiences with God,
including those of pastors, theologists, and even the Pope, and even
the authors of the Bible.
You're falling into a trap of all or nothing thinking here. You can
obviously question the truthfulness of any communication with God. It
is done all the time.
But it wouldn't be fair to say that just because an individual can
abuse something, we are therefore justified in banishing the activity.
For example, let's say individual X abuses alcohol, drives his car
and kills someone. You don't ban alcohol or cars outright based on
the possibility it could be abused or then swing to the other extreme
and say any situation that occurs is permissible since alcohol is OK in
itself and driving is OK in itself.

If things are abused, then punishment is merited. But all-or-nothing
denial/permission is unworkable.
Post by qquito
Don't say that God would not request such a thing. Or you are judging
God with your partial knowledge of God. In fact, God has personally
killed the baby of David and Bathsheba.
Given that God won't lie, he said murder is wrong, and he doesn't
change his mind, then we are not judging God, we are judging the
individuals supposed understanding of God.
Post by qquito
Then, should we charge her with a crime because she acted on God's
call?
Did she act on Gods call? Merely because she says so?
B.G. Kent
2006-11-17 04:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
While Christian experiences with God are personal in a way, they are
also grounded in a context.
B - says who? God? Christ? you?
Post by r***@yahoo.com
context that God is grounded in [at least for christians] is the Bible.
When the bible says that God doesn't change, then we accept that he
B - No...some Christians.
Again..you cannot speak for all.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Good question for Bren though, who has stripped "Christianity" of
any context other than what the individual's inner discernment tells
them. And I think that she would find this a difficult thing to deal
B - Wow...I'm that powerful? I doubt I've done anything except ask a few
questions and give when prompted my own subjective experience. Who says it
is my inner discernment? Maybe your discernement in the validity of the
bible's full truth has stripped Christianity of any other context than
believeing what some guy said. Who knows but God?
Post by r***@yahoo.com
with given the implications of her own philosophy. At least if she has
considered the implications of her own philosophy.....
How would she defend this woman's inner Christ telling her to do
something like this?
B - Hehe...if any "voice" told me to kill another being that was
innocent...I would not believe it to be God at all. There is my faith.
If God did such a cruel trick ..which I don't believe God would ever
do...but in a theoretical question....I would trust in God to forgive me
for not doing it.

Bren
qquito
2006-11-17 04:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Given that God won't lie, he said murder is wrong, and he doesn't
change his mind, then we are not judging God, we are judging the
individuals supposed understanding of God.
Action speaks louder than eloquence. God Himself committed murder. Are
you saying that God's words and deeds are against each other? Does God
do wrong things? Can we follow God's example in our deeds?

God apparently changes His mind. Earlier He murdered the entire
population (except a few) a few times with fire and flood for their
"evil" deeds. Then He claimed that He loved them and even "sacrificed"
Himself on the cross to save them. What a change!
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by qquito
Then, should we charge her with a crime because she acted on God's
call?
Did she act on Gods call? Merely because she says so?
Many religious doctrines are merely because somebody said so.

Additionally, according to the Bible, God sent an angel to stop
Abraham's plan to kill his son. Why didn't God send someone to catch
the falling children in the mid-air?
r***@yahoo.com
2006-11-20 01:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Christian experiences are also grounded in a context.
B - says who? God? Christ? you?
[that] context is the Bible.
B - No...some Christians.
Good question for Bren though,
who has stripped "Christianity" of any context
B - Wow...I'm that powerful?

Well, not to strip Christianity of it's context, you have just
stripped any context in your own personal religion that you call
Christianity. Your own statements above prove that.
with given the implications of her own philosophy. How would
she defend this woman's inner Christ telling her to do
something like this?
B - if any "voice" told me to kill another being that was
innocent...I would not believe it to be God at all. There is my faith.
That's your personal take. But it doesn't really deal with the
issue of the woman's own faith.
What does Bren say:

"Each Christian has the right to his and her own way" Jesus is God
thread 11. 9
"what I do care about is people making statements of supposed
objectivity about ...God...without proof backing it up..thereby running
roughshod over each persons' personal experience of God" Jesus is God
thread 11.14
"speaking about God in objective terms is folly" Jesus is God
thread 11.14
"Everything else is opinion and what I believe is my inner guidance
by God" Jesus is God thread 11.12

According to you she has the "right" to "her own way".
According to you, unless we can PROVE objectively that she wasn't
hearing from God, then we are "running roughshod over" her
"personal experience of God".
According to you, any talk of God in objective terms "is folly",
making all beliefs about God from anyone equally valid.
Given these assertions, I don't see how you can deny her personal
beliefs. All you can say is that you personally don't believe that,
but you're back in the very trap that Roland/qquito brought up.
r***@yahoo.com
2006-11-20 01:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Given that God won't lie, he said murder is wrong, and he doesn't
change his mind, then we are not judging God, we are judging the
individuals supposed understanding of God.
God Himself committed murder. Are you saying that God's
words and deeds are against each other? Does God
do wrong things? Can we follow God's example in our deeds?
First issue here: this is specifically irrelevant for the argument in
this way.
Your initial argument was that given the personal and private nature of
Christians relationship with God, we cannot question individuals
callings. Yet those callings conflict with what the bible says.
But the very fact that these communications "conflict" tell you
that there is a context in which to judge them, which renders the
argument moot. If a Christian says God told me to murder, when the
Bible says, "don't murder", then we dismiss the individual, not
the context.

The second issue here is that you are now questioning a supposed
contradiction: the Bible says not to murder, but God himself murders.
Given that we should follow God, we are supposed to murder and yet not
murder, which refutes itself.

Let me try and clarify this for you with an example from our societal
laws.
Vigilantism is bad.
Someone sees [or even hears about] something bad happening, they take
the law into their own hands and mete out "justice". What is the
problem?

Charles Bronson movies aside, the problem is that sometimes people can
get carried away with how they mete out justice. The courts are there
as a check to make sure evidence is weighed, fair trials are had, etc.
Please refrain from complaints about the system here, the idea still
stands.

The law of the land is that if you do a crime, you can end up in
prison. But it is NOT the law of the land that individuals can lock up
other individuals on their own. When officers of authority act outside
the law, then it is perhaps the worst of all crimes because individuals
being prosecuted have no recourse. If the authorities are unjust, where
can we turn for justice? Do you see where I am going?

The reason WE are not to murder is that WE are not in the position to
judge. God is able to judge perfectly, so there is no prohibition on
him taking a life.
There is no biblical reason for us to assume that any loss of life is
somehow against the laws of God, that is absolutely untrue. Even among
societies, there is biblical license to carry out death sentences, so
God is not opposed to humans losing their lives at the hands of
authorities if it is merited.

To answer the questions then:
Yes, God has taken lives. He is in a position to judge.
His words and deeds are not "against each other", you are operating
on a faulty understanding.
No, he doesn't do wrong things.
Depends on the deed of God, but typically, no, we are not in the
position to do the deeds of God.

Just like we can't follow the police's example and pull people over
or wield a gun and tell them to get out of the car while we search it,
all the much more fitting that we recognize our place as contingent
creatures of God.
B.G. Kent
2006-11-20 23:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
According to you she has the "right" to "her own way".
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.

I have nothing against anyones personal "way" unless it runs roughshod
over someone elses...and this can neatly be avoided just by saying "in my
opinion, how I feel...what I think ...etc. YOu didn't actually think I
wasn't aware of how that could be worked? *shakes head*.
Ofcourse we can all make things work out to make the other seem
hypocritical.....we all can.....it's very easy....so consider yourself
learned in that. Bravo.

Bren

ps. moderator has sent a note saying that our conversations are becoming
more about you and I and less about religion....so with that...I will
cease this thread.
Steve Hayes
2006-11-22 03:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
A parameter is a quantity that is constant in the case considered, but may
vary in other cases.

Are these parameters passed by reference or by value?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
r***@yahoo.com
2006-11-22 03:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
But now there is an appeal to some other parameters. What are those
parameters? Where did they come from? "Each has a right to his own
way" is now subservient to something else, so it's not really a
proper stating of facts.

Perhaps the conversations can be personal, but I still think these are
VERY important issues. I think it has some merit to consider these in
more depth and to continue chasing philosophies down to what they
really mean.
B.G. Kent
2006-11-27 01:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
But now there is an appeal to some other parameters. What are those
parameters? Where did they come from? "Each has a right to his own
B - for each and every thing there is something to figure out...when does
your freedom to do what you want end?

Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-11-27 01:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
A parameter is a quantity that is constant in the case considered, but may
vary in other cases.
Are these parameters passed by reference or by value?
B - sorry...I'm not intelligent enough to understand what you mean by
this.

Blessings
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-11-28 05:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
But now there is an appeal to some other parameters. What are those
parameters? Where did they come from? "Each has a right to his own
B - for each and every thing there is something to figure out...when does
your freedom to do what you want end?

Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-11-28 05:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
A parameter is a quantity that is constant in the case considered, but may
vary in other cases.
Are these parameters passed by reference or by value?
B - sorry...I'm not intelligent enough to understand what you mean by
this.

Blessings
Bren
r***@yahoo.com
2006-11-28 05:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
But now there is an appeal to some other parameters. What are those
parameters? Where did they come from? "Each has a right to his own
B - for each and every thing there is something to figure out...when does
your freedom to do what you want end?
My answer? The bible tells us where that freedom ends and why.

But you said "no one has a right to straightjacket Christianity"
and "Each Christian has the right to his and her own way".

Someone who really believed that would have to defend this womans way.
Yet you don't.
So while you are saying one thing, you actually believe something else.
This really is at the heart of homebrew religions like yours, and I'd
like to know what people really believe, not just what they say
publicly because they think it sounds good. Of course that takes
honesty and a willingness to share reasoning, which may not be
forthcoming: maybe for fear of questioning themselves that deeply or
maybe for fear of admitting that they don't have solid reasons.

But don't be afraid of the truth.
Steve Hayes
2006-11-28 05:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
A parameter is a quantity that is constant in the case considered, but may
vary in other cases.
Are these parameters passed by reference or by value?
B - sorry...I'm not intelligent enough to understand what you mean by
this.
I was trying to understand what you mean by "parameters". The above is what my
dictionary says a "paremeter" is, but it didn't seem to fit with what you
said.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
B.G. Kent
2006-11-29 01:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
But now there is an appeal to some other parameters. What are those
parameters? Where did they come from? "Each has a right to his own
B - for each and every thing there is something to figure out...when does
your freedom to do what you want end?
My answer? The bible tells us where that freedom ends and why.
B - Good..that's YOUR answer.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
But you said "no one has a right to straightjacket Christianity"
and "Each Christian has the right to his and her own way".
So while you are saying one thing, you actually believe something else.
B - let me have an addendum then..."no one has a right to straight jacket
Christianity FOR OTHERS".
Post by r***@yahoo.com
This really is at the heart of homebrew religions like yours, and I'd
like to know what people really believe, not just what they say
publicly because they think it sounds good. Of course that takes
honesty and a willingness to share reasoning, which may not be
forthcoming: maybe for fear of questioning themselves that deeply or
maybe for fear of admitting that they don't have solid reasons.
But don't be afraid of the truth.
B - I am totally with you there my friend. The truth includes admitting to
not being sure...admitting to weaknesses and strengths...admitting to
these things because you know deep down that Christ knows the real truth
of you and that nothing can be hidden.
My Christianity is about a very real and personal connection to God...not
to grandstand ..although sometimes I can be rather voicey....not to be
"one of the crowd" ..not to have everyone think you are pious...but
something that Christ knows..when you are alone..when you are in a
wilderness of sorts. My Christianity is about truth and understanding
human frailty...bigotry...ego...the need to belong..the need to fit all of
our round pegs in round holes (even if we have to whack them hard to make
them fit). I can't get more honest with my feelings than I have been. I
have no "agenda" I have no interest in pulling anyone away from the
Bible..away from their way of doing things etc. I just am frankly bothered
by those that put Christ in a box...say it is this way for them and
EVERYONE and that this is the way it has to be or you are not a "real
Christian". I am..in my own opinion..a real Christian..and I figure that
only Christ itself can say whether I really am or not..but no one else.

Blessings in love,
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-11-29 01:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Yes...a man also has the right to swing his fist in circles...but the
moment he connects it with someones chin.....that right needs parameters.
A parameter is a quantity that is constant in the case considered, but may
vary in other cases.
Are these parameters passed by reference or by value?
B - sorry...I'm not intelligent enough to understand what you mean by
this.
I was trying to understand what you mean by "parameters". The above is what my
dictionary says a "paremeter" is, but it didn't seem to fit with what you
said.
B - okay...well to me..a parameter is a boundary..or a rule. In the
paragraph I meant that as soon as his fist hits your chin..then one would
have to step back and make a rule that I have a right to swing my fist but
not if I walk into a persons personal space and make contact with his
chin..purposely...therefore anyone can believe what he/she wants but to
tell others that they MUST believe this way sounds as if they are
contacting fist to chin.

Blessings
Bren
Jani
2006-11-17 04:01:50 UTC
Permalink
"qquito" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:2Tb6h.4635$l%***@trnddc05...

[]
Post by qquito
Then, should we charge her with a crime because she acted on God's
call?
Wouldn't a better question be, should she be charged with a crime because
she *thought* she was acting on "God's call"?

Jani
David Warren Steel
2006-11-17 04:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by qquito
Many people have heard the story about a mother in San Francisco who
dropped his three children, aged 16 months, 2 and 6, respectively, into
the chilly sea to drown them....
The mother said that God commanded her to do so and believed that they
went to Heaven.
If Christians's experiences with God are personal and private, as they
are alledged to be, and other people have no say in it, then we can
only say that this God's communication with this mother is true.
Otherwise, we are denying her experience with God and speaking for her
and God.
If it were so, I should want nothing to do with such a God.
Post by qquito
If we can quesion the truthfulness of her communication with God, then
we can equally question other believers alleged experiences with God,
including those of pastors, theologists, and even the Pope, and even
the authors of the Bible.
Yes, questioning pretended revelation is a healthy practice.
Post by qquito
Don't say that God would not request such a thing. Or you are judging
God with your partial knowledge of God. In fact, God has personally
killed the baby of David and Bathsheba.
Then, should we charge her with a crime because she acted on God's
call?
Someone is sure to mention Abraham and Isaac.

But consider Jephtha's sacrifice of his own daughter in
Judges 11. Had he not made his rash vow, would the Lord have
denied him victory over the Ammonites? In the usual interpretation,
Jephtha's victory and his kinslaying are related to his faith
and trust in his God, but you could also say it's a warning
against making rash vows that would involve you in sacrificial
murder. And again we ought to ask, why should the innocent
daughter have to pay?

Either God has changed since then, or scripture documents not
changes in the Unchangeable but rather changes in the human view
of the deity, from a capricious and vengeful monster to a more
"humane" being (yes, we still view God "through a glass darkly,"
primarily through the best of his creatures); as ever, we do better
by studying scripture rather than enshrining it.
--
Warren Steel ***@olemiss.edu
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/
University of Mississippi Department of Music (662) 915-5183
Old George down on the bayou
2006-11-20 01:37:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by qquito
Many people have heard the story about a mother in San Francisco who
dropped his three children, aged 16 months, 2 and 6, respectively, into
the chilly sea to drown them. (Full story at
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Nov12/0,4670,ChildreninBay,00.html).
The mother said that God commanded her to do so and believed that they
went to Heaven.
If Christians's experiences with God are personal and private, as they
are alledged to be, and other people have no say in it, then we can
only say that this God's communication with this mother is true.
Otherwise, we are denying her experience with God and speaking for her
and God.
If we can quesion the truthfulness of her communication with God, then
we can equally question other believers alleged experiences with God,
including those of pastors, theologists, and even the Pope, and even
the authors of the Bible.
Don't say that God would not request such a thing.
Where do you think you given authority to tell us what to think? If I
let anyone tell me what I should think, it will not be some mentally
confused nincompoop.
Post by qquito
Or you are judging
God with your partial knowledge of God.
And you are egomaniacal, and also you are nuts!
Post by qquito
In fact, God has personally
killed the baby of David and Bathsheba.
Then, should we charge her with a crime because she acted on God's
call?
You should not. But a jury of sane people should judge what to do with
her.

************************************

God never told anybody to be stupid.

Sergeant K. D. Waugh
22nd Evac. Hosp. S. M.
Korea 1951
Stephen
2006-11-20 01:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Good questions Roland.

It leads to another question: Are Christian parents morally obliged to
murder their children before reaching the "age of accountability", thus
guaranteeing the children avoid eternal suffering, (assuming the age of
accountability doctrine is true)? Also, should Christians in general
favour abortion on moral grounds, since presumably all fetuses that are
aborted will not have the chance to sin, and hence, presumably, never
have the chance of suffering eternally?

Unfortunately, the doctrine of the "age of accountability" is poorly
supported in the Bible. So I would urge Christians not to be logical at
this point. The greatest act of love a parent could do is to kill their
child - sacrificing their own chances of eternal bliss, but in an act
of love ensuring their children do not suffer eternally.

Let me be the first to say that I support that this woman's actions are
completely logical given the premises most Christians adhere to.

-- Stephen
Post by qquito
Many people have heard the story about a mother in San Francisco who
dropped his three children, aged 16 months, 2 and 6, respectively, into
the chilly sea to drown them. (Full story at
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Nov12/0,4670,ChildreninBay,00.html).
The mother said that God commanded her to do so and believed that they
went to Heaven.
If Christians's experiences with God are personal and private, as they
are alledged to be, and other people have no say in it, then we can
only say that this God's communication with this mother is true.
Otherwise, we are denying her experience with God and speaking for her
and God.
If we can quesion the truthfulness of her communication with God, then
we can equally question other believers alleged experiences with God,
including those of pastors, theologists, and even the Pope, and even
the authors of the Bible.
Don't say that God would not request such a thing. Or you are judging
God with your partial knowledge of God. In fact, God has personally
killed the baby of David and Bathsheba.
...
Charles Hedrick
2006-11-20 23:18:53 UTC
Permalink
I'm going to answer several questions that have been raised here.

First, the initial issue: yes, this incident is a good example of why we
need more than private relevations. Christianity balances the duty to
have a personal relationship with God, the importance of the Christian
community, and Scripture. All of these need to come into play.

If we allow individual revelations to dominate, we'll get things like
this. Not everyone who thinks they have a revelation from God actually
does. This was true in Biblical times as well. God speaks to individuals
and may give them a role in calling for reform or other change, but the
individual is speaking to the community. Individual insights must be
checked by the community for consistency with the Bible and with broader
Christian experience.

But the Bible is a large and complex book. Isn't this woman's revelation
like Abraham's. Well, no. Whatever was going on between God and Abraham,
God did not allow him to sacrifice his son. Was it a test? Did Abraham
mishear God in the first place? I don't know. But this passage is
traditionally read as prohibiting human sacrifice. The prophets
consistently spoke against pagan practices that involving killing children.

God's command to Israel to kill certain populations is troubling. My
personal view is that there is a progression to God's revelation. The
later prophets and then Jesus said things that aren't present in the
earlier portions of the OT. Again, I'm not going to say exactly what is
going on. Did people mishear God, viewing him as just like all the other
Gods whose major function was to support his people in wars against
other people? Were they not ready at that point to understand God's real
intention for Israel's role? I don't know. But the final view is that
God's people are a light to the Gentiles, and that they bear witness to
God through suffering. There are legitimate debates about the proper use
of force. But the context of that debate is the teachings of the
prophets and Jesus, not "kill the infidel!"

One can deal with this even without invoking progressive revelation,
although it's not a perspective I accept. The orders to kill certain
groups are mitigated by a couple of considerations:

* There is not a general command to kill all outsiders. Indeed the Law
is careful to preserve the rights of non-Israelites living in Israel. We
have to assume there was something specific about these groups that
caused God to give the order.

* The command was communicated by a prophet, someone acting as God's
mouthpiece. This is not a role that is currently active. Jesus gave to
the Church the responsibility to act in his name. There are people who
play a prophetic role. But they aren't really equivalent to OT prophets.
They don't act entirely on their own, outside the Church. There are
things God could command through a prophet that we aren't authorized to do.

The argument that you should kill all children so they go to heaven is
predicated on what I think are several errors.

It assumes that humans start out as innocent. That isn't the Biblical
view. Even my own church has adopted the idea that young children are
all saved, but this is a rejection of our theological tradition. Sin is
not primarily a set of actions, but a state of alienation from God. The
traditional term is Original Sin, but that term is commonly
misunderstood. I don't know how God will judge young children, but I
believe people of any age rely on his grace, and I have no reason to
think that dying young has any particular advantage. It saves you from
corrupting influence but it also prevents you from hearing the Gospel.
God presumably put us here for a reason. Killing someone prevents them
from living the life that God would have had them live. Ultimately it is
a failure to trust that God loves them and cares for them.
Old George down on the bayou
2006-11-20 23:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen
Good questions Roland.
It leads to another question: Are Christian parents morally obliged to
murder their children before reaching the "age of accountability", thus
guaranteeing the children avoid eternal suffering, (assuming the age of
...
Post by Stephen
Unfortunately, the doctrine of the "age of accountability" is poorly
supported in the Bible.
"Poorly supported"? I don't even find that much support. And the lack
of support is not unfortunate, rather support would have been
unfortunate.

...
Post by Stephen
Let me be the first to say that I support that this woman's actions are
completely logical given the premises most Christians adhere to.
What a sad commentary on "most Christians"! I just cannot agree that
most Christians are like that. I think that "most Christians" are sane
and logical. Most Christians would never set a fire to their home and
sit around and let their children burn. The child abuse that took
place near Waco in the 1990s did not reflect the beliefs and actions of
most Christians.
Post by Stephen
Post by qquito
If we can quesion the truthfulness of her communication with God, then
we can equally question other believers alleged experiences with God,
including those of pastors, theologists, and even the Pope, and even
the authors of the Bible.
Don't say that God would not request such a thing.
Are you telling us not to talk sane talk? You mean that your doctrine
says that your god would request such a thing? Has your doctrine got a
virus?
Post by Stephen
Post by qquito
Or you are judging
God with your partial knowledge of God.
That sounds like what you have just done!
Post by Stephen
Post by qquito
In fact, God has personally
killed the baby of David and Bathsheba.
...
************************************

God never told anybody to be stupid.

Sergeant K. D. Waugh
22nd Evac. Hosp. S. M.
Korea 1951
l***@hotmail.com
2006-11-29 01:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Hedrick
God's command to Israel to kill certain populations is troubling.
why, especially when you correctly state
Post by Charles Hedrick
God's people are a light to the Gentiles, and that they bear witness to
God through suffering.
What was the point and what was the outcome when it wasn't followed out
to completion? The point was to illustrate that a little leaven
leavens the whole lump. Sin must be totally eradicated. Bad company
corrupts good morals. And in that Israel did not completely comply
with the command to eradicate the land of ALL its pagan inhabitants, it
suffered the consequence by marrying its daughters and sons to those
idol worshipping pagans. That led to spiritual adultery. Satan is
always in pursuit of the next generation!
Post by Charles Hedrick
One can deal with this even without invoking progressive revelation,
although it's not a perspective I accept. The orders to kill certain
* There is not a general command to kill all outsiders. Indeed the Law
is careful to preserve the rights of non-Israelites living in Israel. We
have to assume there was something specific about these groups that
caused God to give the order.
The whole point of the matter was contamination. Nehemiah 13
illustrates quite adequately the danger of compromise and its
unintended consequences. The road to ruin is thus:

1) toleration
2) permission
3) possibility of usefulness
4) acceptance
5) attraction
6) advocation

In Neh 13 we are shown one of the privileges granted to Israel, namely
the local presence of God dwelling in the temple. But 13:5 reveals
their defilement of this privilege while vv 10, 11 show their defeat
because they were distracted in v. 15, 16. V 15 reveals that business
was better than worship while v 16 reveals that worldliness replaces
godliness. The principle being that materialism always marginalizes
worship. In v 24 it is again noted that the result of intermarriage,
of tolerance then acceptance what that their grandchildren were
untaught in ways of God. Adultery in one generation leads to apostasy
in the next. V25 illustrates what the OT is meant to teach the Church.
That we are to think antithetically, not synthetically. But the
modern church has completely missed the point and now, like Israel,
stand arrogantly (Rom 11:18) and conceitedly (11:20) failing to
acknowledge both the kindness (election) and the severity (reprobation)
of God, standing at the precipice of being "cut off."

Therefore, for God to command the land to be swept clean, was a
prescience commission allowing for the fact that "a little leaven
leavens the whole dough."
Post by Charles Hedrick
* The command was communicated by a prophet, someone acting as God's
mouthpiece. This is not a role that is currently active.
Indeed, now will it ever be in a foretelling role (Heb 1L1-2). It is,
however, active in the majority role of forthtelling.
Post by Charles Hedrick
Jesus gave to
the Church the responsibility to act in his name. There are people who
play a prophetic role. But they aren't really equivalent to OT prophets.
And this is the reason for Jude's condemnation of the false teachers
who had crept into the assembly, spewing forth doctrines based upon
their dreams and visions. We have but one propositional truth and
that is the Scriptures. Sola scriptura is required because all men
have
been ruined by a "little leaven."
Post by Charles Hedrick
They don't act entirely on their own, outside the Church. There are
things God could command through a prophet that we aren't authorized to do.
If I understand you correctly, I think you are saying that the gift of
prophecy, being narrowly defined as foretelling instead of the broader
definition and more common useage, foretelling, has ceased. And in
alignment with Heb 1:1-2. The kerygma is settled once and for all..
This is part of the message inferred in the Lazareth -Divers account.
The Scriptures are sufficent and nothing further need be added.
Creeds, counsels etc, all have their place in defining and
establishing "The Faith", but they are all subject to the propositional
truth granted to us in the Scriptures.
Post by Charles Hedrick
The argument that you should kill all children so they go to heaven is
predicated on what I think are several errors.
First off, the scriptures do not so state that children are innocent
(as you later attest to) and thus are not in need of a pardon.
Scripture rather reveals that all men are born guilty of sin and that
all stand justly under the sentence of death and wrath. Although,
this being said, the scriptures teach that an infant born to the elect
has a better chance of gaining the truth than one born to an
unbelieving family. It may also infer that if an infant of the elect
dies, grace may be extend to that child on account of the believing
parent. But there are no scriptural teaching that children are likely
to go to heaven if they die before "the age of accountability" let
alone sure to. David cried prior to the death of the child because
there was still hope of salvation. However, after death, it was
entirely outside of his providence. "It is appointed unto man once to
die and then comes [certain] judgment."
Post by Charles Hedrick
It assumes that humans start out as innocent. That isn't the Biblical
view. Even my own church has adopted the idea that young children are
all saved, but this is a rejection of our theological tradition.
That is because the PC/USA faction no longer stands upon sola's of the
Reformation, including sola scriptura, now does it?
Post by Charles Hedrick
Sin is
not primarily a set of actions, but a state of alienation from God. The
traditional term is Original Sin, but that term is commonly
misunderstood. I don't know how God will judge young children,
The resolve of this dilemma lies in whether or not, as with sin, the
federalheadship paradigm applies. If it does, then the dying infants
of the elect are saved while those of the non-elect are lost. I don't
know, as you say. But there are arguments that this is the case.
Post by Charles Hedrick
but I
believe people of any age rely on his grace, and I have no reason to
think that dying young has any particular advantage. It saves you from
corrupting influence but it also prevents you from hearing the Gospel.
And that is the dilemma, is it not?
Post by Charles Hedrick
God presumably put us here for a reason. Killing someone prevents them
from living the life that God would have had them live. Ultimately it is
a failure to trust that God loves them and cares for them.
When propositional affirmation of a truth is not revealed, it means
that
men are not to worry their pretty little heads about it. Just how many
angels can dance on the head of a pin is a waste of God granted time.
We are called to live by faith. We are called to live dependent lives
on
His goodness. Therefore, like David, we are to bathe our children
before
and after birth in prayer. But if they die, we are wait upon God.
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