Discussion:
Jesus....how could he be in two places at once?
(too old to reply)
B.G. Kent
2007-02-05 03:12:52 UTC
Permalink
just curious to those Bible literalist scholars out there....

It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw could he be
in two places at once?

Bren
b***@dodo.com.au
2007-02-06 02:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
just curious to those Bible literalist scholars out there....
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw could he be
in two places at once?
Bren
My understanding is that Christ would have been approaching two years
of age before he and his parents fled to Egypt. That's why Herod gave
orders for all male children under two years of age to be killed.
There was no instant radio or internet communications in those days.
Some time would have elapsed before Herod was tipped off by the Wise
Men that the "King of the Jews" had been born.

I don't know much about Jewish customs, but I would expect he would
have been presented as a baby in the Temple or local synagogue not
long after birth.

When we see Nativity scenes at Christmas, we are being misled in that
the Wise Men probably did not appear for quite some time after his
birth.
Sarah Kanary
2007-02-06 02:01:57 UTC
Permalink
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately=20
after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book=20
it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod.=20
HOw could he be
in two places at once?
The Bible does not say that Jesus was taken to Egypt=20
immediately after being born.

After Jesus' birth, Joseph and Mary remained in Bethlehem.=20
And when Jesus is eight days old, they have him circumcised,=20
as God=92s Law to Moses commands.

When Jesus is 40 days old, his parents take him to the=20
temple in Jerusalem, which is only a few miles from=20
Bethlehem where they are staying. According to God=92s Law to=20
Moses, 40 days after giving birth to a son, a mother is=20
required to present a purification offering at the temple.=20
(Lev. 12:1-8)

It was nearly two years after this that Jesus was taken to=20
Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. After Herod's death,=20
Joseph and Mary take Jesus to Nazareth, Mary's hometown,=20
where he grows up. (Matt. 2:13-23)

Peace to you and yours.


------------------------------------------
Is There Only One True God?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/200602b/article_01.htm
Information in 310 languages=20
B.G. Kent
2007-02-07 02:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah Kanary
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately=20
after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book=20
it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod.=20
HOw could he be
in two places at once?
The Bible does not say that Jesus was taken to Egypt=20
immediately after being born.
After Jesus' birth, Joseph and Mary remained in Bethlehem.=20
And when Jesus is eight days old, they have him circumcised,=20
as God=92s Law to Moses commands.
When Jesus is 40 days old, his parents take him to the=20
temple in Jerusalem, which is only a few miles from=20
Bethlehem where they are staying. According to God=92s Law to=20
Moses, 40 days after giving birth to a son, a mother is=20
required to present a purification offering at the temple.=20
(Lev. 12:1-8)
It was nearly two years after this that Jesus was taken to=20
Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. After Herod's death,=20
Joseph and Mary take Jesus to Nazareth, Mary's hometown,=20
where he grows up. (Matt. 2:13-23)
Peace to you and yours.
In the Gospel of Luke, Joseph and Mary take the child to the temple to be
blessed and sanctified and then return to Nazereth. In the Gospel of
Matthew, the three of them flee to Egypt in fear of Herods anger.Which one
is right? Not only that, but if they did take the baby Jesus to the
temple,would not Herod know of it , especially since he was looking for
the child? Luke says that after the purification the returned to the city
of Galilee and Christ grew up, making no mention of Christ going to Egypt
to hide from Herod. NOw, since Herod did not die until almost four years
later,why didn't Luke even mention the fact that Herod was a danger to the
child Jesus?
Matthew specifically states that Herod killed all the male children who
were two years of age and underin Bethlehem in the hope of destroying the
newly born "king of Jews" (Matthew 2:16). This act supposedly fulfilled
another prophecy. Matthew then states an angel came to Joseph in a dream
while he was in Egypt hiding and told him to go back to Israel (to fulfill
another prophecy) because Herod was now dead. He then takes Mary and
Christ to Nazereth (to fulfill yet another prophecy) where Christ grows
up. NOw it seems clear here that the Gospel of Matthew was written with
the obvious intent to fulfill Jewish prophecy as far as the Messiah is
concerned, for it states each prophecy as it occurred. Luke does not do
this and is a much more peaceful narrative.

Conflicting accounts....Matthew and Luke also are the only ones to mention
the virgin births...the
rest do not. Why?. If this is very important..why did not the other
synoptic gospels and/or the rest of the Bible itself mention this?

Does it not occur to some folks that since the Jewish Christians may have
wanted to make Jesus fit the Old Testament's prophecies that they may have
skewed Jesus's birth etc. to fit this prophecy?

Just curious as to opinions....

since I have my own obviously.

Bren
Sarah Kanary
2007-02-08 03:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
In the Gospel of Luke, Joseph and Mary take the child to
the temple to be
blessed and sanctified and then return to Nazereth. In the
Gospel of
Matthew, the three of them flee to Egypt in fear of Herods
anger.Which one
is right?
Both. Matthew gives an eyewitness account, and wrote it
about 15 years before Luke wrote his gospel. Luke was not
an eyewitness account. So the part about fleeing to Egypt
was already written.
Post by B.G. Kent
Not only that, but if they did take the baby
Jesus to the
temple,would not Herod know of it , especially since he
was looking for
the child?
Herod was not looking for Jesus until nearly two years
later, after the astrologers had traveled hundreds of miles
and asked Herod about the child born "King of the Jews".
Post by B.G. Kent
Luke says that after the purification the
returned to the city
of Galilee and Christ grew up, making no mention of Christ
going to Egypt
to hide from Herod. NOw, since Herod did not die until
almost four years
later,why didn't Luke even mention the fact that Herod was
a danger to the
child Jesus?
Probably because Matthew had already written those details
15 years earlier, but who can say? The point is, what Luke
DID write is truth. He simply omitted details that Matthew
included. If all the gospel accounts were identical, why
have four of them? Would not some charge the gospel writers
with collaboration is all their accounts matched exactly?
Post by B.G. Kent
Matthew specifically states that Herod killed all the male
children who
were two years of age and underin Bethlehem in the hope of
destroying the
newly born "king of Jews" (Matthew 2:16). This act
supposedly fulfilled
another prophecy. Matthew then states an angel came to
Joseph in a dream
while he was in Egypt hiding and told him to go back to
Israel (to fulfill
another prophecy) because Herod was now dead. He then
takes Mary and
Christ to Nazereth (to fulfill yet another prophecy) where
Christ grows
up. NOw it seems clear here that the Gospel of Matthew was
written with
the obvious intent to fulfill Jewish prophecy as far as
the Messiah is
concerned, for it states each prophecy as it occurred.
Luke does not do
this and is a much more peaceful narrative.
Different writers have different styles. Matthew wrote
primarily for Jews, tracing Jesus' lineage only back to
Abraham, but Luke traces it back to Adam, "son of God."
Post by B.G. Kent
Conflicting accounts....
Conflicting? No. One simply omits details the other
contains. One is an eyewitness account, the other is not.
Post by B.G. Kent
Matthew and Luke also are the only
ones to mention
the virgin births...the
rest do not. Why?.
See above.
Post by B.G. Kent
If this is very important..why did not
the other
synoptic gospels and/or the rest of the Bible itself
mention this?
See above and Isa. 7:14
Post by B.G. Kent
Does it not occur to some folks that since the Jewish
Christians may have
wanted to make Jesus fit the Old Testament's prophecies
that they may have
skewed Jesus's birth etc. to fit this prophecy?
That and more has occurred to many. But really, would that
have worked? No. When the gospels were written, there were
simply too many eyewitnesses still around that would have
quickly corrected any mistakes as to facts. Also, opposing
Jews would have loved to expose any discrepancy.

There are 332 Messianic prophecies fulfilled in Jesus
Christ. Some of them were fulfilled by Jesus' enemies, like
the Pharisees(giving 30 pieces of silver for his betrayal)
and the Romans(casting lots for his garments, not breaking
any of his bones). How could the Jews have 'skewed' that?
Also, in a society where the testimony of women was not
considered valid, why have a woman be the first eyewitness
to Jesus' resurrection? Wouldn't this and other details
have been "invented" differently?

Peace.

------------------------------------
Do We Need A Messiah?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060215/article_01.htm
B.G. Kent
2007-02-09 07:28:36 UTC
Permalink
INteresting Opinions Sarah.
Thankyou.


Bren

On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Sarah Kanary wrote:
gilgames
2007-02-06 02:01:57 UTC
Permalink
<<
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw could he be
in two places at once?

Bren
.
The probable sequence of the events after Jesus birth:

- same night : adoration of sheperds (celebration : Mass at Dawn of
Christmas Day)

- Jesus circumcision : 8th days later (Celebration: New Years Day)
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be
circumcised.

- Jesus Presentation in the Temple: 33 days after birth, (Celebration
February 2)
Lev 12:4-6 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying
three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into
the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in
her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying
threescore and six days.
And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a
daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering,
and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door
of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:

- arrival of the wise man. (Celebrartion Epiphany, traditionaly Jan 7)
minimum 3 months after Jesus birth

- flee to Egypt (immediately after the adoration of the wise man)

The exact date for Jesus' birth of for the adoration of the wise man is
unknown. The persons involved had no Calendars.
Barnacle Bill
2007-02-06 02:01:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
just curious to those Bible literalist scholars out there....
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw could he be
in two places at once?
Bren
Get thee to a Bible study. The flight was _well_ after the circumcision and
blessing.
r***@yahoo.com
2007-02-06 02:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
just curious to those Bible literalist scholars out there....
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw could he be
in two places at once?
Bren
Luke chapter 2 tells us Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day.

Matthew 2 says that Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt.
They did this after the magi had visited Herod and told him there was
a king they were seeking, Herod told the magi to report to him, they
didn't and left, and then Herod wanted the child dead.

Now check this:
"When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was
furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its
vicinity who were 2 YEARS OLD and under in accordance with the time he
had learned from the Magi" Matthew 2:16

The magi visited Jesus when he was 1-2 years old, not when he was a
newborn, despite the depiction in popular Christmas manger scenes.
Matt 2:2 tells us the Magi had traveled from the east saying they had
seen the star, Herod questioned them when they had seen it vs. 7-8,
and then reacted to that time frame by killing 2 year olds and under.
So there was plenty of time for Joseph and Mary to visit the temple on
the 8th day of Jesus' life and then flee to Egypt before his 2nd
birthday.

Perhaps reading the text would have resolved the "contradiction" ......
B.G. Kent
2007-02-07 02:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by B.G. Kent
just curious to those Bible literalist scholars out there....
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw could he be
in two places at once?
...
Post by r***@yahoo.com
The magi visited Jesus when he was 1-2 years old, not when he was a
newborn, despite the depiction in popular Christmas manger scenes.
Perhaps reading the text would have resolved the "contradiction" ......
B - Perhaps you might want to try and prove this.

Bren
Barnacle Bill
2007-02-08 03:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Post by B.G. Kent
just curious to those Bible literalist scholars out there....
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born to
the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says he and
his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw could he be
in two places at once?
...
Post by r***@yahoo.com
The magi visited Jesus when he was 1-2 years old, not when he was a
newborn, despite the depiction in popular Christmas manger scenes.
Perhaps reading the text would have resolved the "contradiction" ......
B - Perhaps you might want to try and prove this.
Bren
What is this preoccupation with 'proof?' You've been given information from
multiple posters who obviously have read the Bible. You have not backed up
your statements with any evidence biblical or extra-biblical.
B.G. Kent
2007-02-09 07:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barnacle Bill
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
The magi visited Jesus when he was 1-2 years old, not when he was a
newborn, despite the depiction in popular Christmas manger scenes.
Perhaps reading the text would have resolved the "contradiction" ......
B - Perhaps you might want to try and prove this.
Bren
What is this preoccupation with 'proof?' You've been given information from
multiple posters who obviously have read the Bible. You have not backed up
your statements with any evidence biblical or extra-biblical.
B - If someone tells me to believe in something...then I would like to see
their proof. I have not been given one dot of proof so far. I have made
Few if any statements.....most of what I say is opinion.

Blessings
Bren
Sarah Kanary
2007-02-13 02:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
The magi visited Jesus when he was 1-2 years old, not
when he was a
newborn, despite the depiction in popular Christmas
manger scenes.
Perhaps reading the text would have resolved the
"contradiction" ......
B - Perhaps you might want to try and prove this.
The magi came "from the East." The word "magi" is Chaldean,
used to refer to the Median tribe of priests who interpreted
dreams, looked to the stars for omens, etc.

Chaldea was hundreds of miles away from Judea. Just going
from Bethlehem to Nazareth was about 90 miles; Babylon of
Chaldea was hundreds of miles beyond that. Travel at that
time was long, slow and difficult, so it would have taken
the magi a long time to travel from Babylon to Judea. By
the time they arrived, Jesus was nearly two years old, as is
shown by Herod's decree that boys two years of age and under
be killed.

Peace to you and yours.


-------------------------------------------
The Gospels - History or Myth?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20000515/article_01.htm
zach
2007-02-13 02:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Barnacle Bill
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by r***@yahoo.com
The magi visited Jesus when he was 1-2 years old, not when he was a
newborn, despite the depiction in popular Christmas manger scenes.
Perhaps reading the text would have resolved the "contradiction" ......
B - Perhaps you might want to try and prove this.
Bren
What is this preoccupation with 'proof?' You've been given information from
multiple posters who obviously have read the Bible. You have not backed up
your statements with any evidence biblical or extra-biblical.
B - If someone tells me to believe in something...then I would like to see
their proof. I have not been given one dot of proof so far. I have made
Few if any statements.....most of what I say is opinion.
YOU said:

"just curious to those Bible literalist scholars out there....

It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born
to the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says
he and his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw
could he be in two places at once? "

It is therefore legitimate to offer _proof_ from the source from which
your question arises. YOU, after all, set the context of the question,
and also the response. Now, you are either being passive-aggressive,
or just a jerk for no good reason. Why are you doing this?
B.G. Kent
2007-02-14 03:00:47 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, zach wrote:

...
Post by zach
"just curious to those Bible literalist scholars out there....
It says in the Bible that Jesus was taken immediately after being born
to the Temples to be shown and blessed....and in another book it says
he and his earthly parents fled to Egypt to hide out from Herod. HOw
could he be in two places at once? "
It is therefore legitimate to offer _proof_ from the source from which
your question arises. YOU, after all, set the context of the question,
and also the response. Now, you are either being passive-aggressive,
or just a jerk for no good reason. Why are you doing this?
B - Only if people state in thier responses..."the Bible says" Or "it says
here in the Bible" . When they say "God said"....I have to ask proof. Add
"the bible says" and I'm fine.

NO need to insult.

Why am I doing it? because I want to hear opinions.
Why are you insulting?

Bren

---

[It would seem that when the original claim is that the Bible is
contradictory, then the text of the Bible is evidence in a more direct
way than in other discussions. --clh]
Jani
2007-02-15 02:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Only if people state in thier responses..."the Bible says" Or "it says
here in the Bible" . When they say "God said"....I have to ask proof. Add
"the bible says" and I'm fine.
They *did* answer you with "the Bible says", not "God said", gave you
references, and explained why the "two places at once" idea which you had is
not there, in the text, in the first place.

As someone mentioned upthread, if you'd read it you would see there's no
discrepancy. Now, if you want proof that the events described in the text
actually occurred, that's another matter.
Post by B.G. Kent
NO need to insult.
Why am I doing it? because I want to hear opinions.
Why are you insulting?
It's not a case of opinion, though. It doesn't say anywhere that Jesus was
in two places at once, so why should anyone have an "opinion" that he was?

Jani

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