Discussion:
Why Americans Should Put Away their Flags
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KB
2006-07-04 04:53:24 UTC
Permalink
On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its
symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its
insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so
fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time,
along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from
childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for
those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking
both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway,
Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge,
possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have
been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others
and to ourselves.

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from
others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other
lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

That self-deception started early.

When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts
Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot
Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking
of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the
Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for
thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy
possession."

When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women
and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was
supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell
that day."

On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our
"Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence."
After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: "We
believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful
country."

It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to
war.

We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the
Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize
and Christianize" the Filipino people.

As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least
600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our
secretary of war, was saying: "The American soldier is different from
all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is
the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of
peace and happiness."

We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps
against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And
some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.

Yet they are victims, too, of our government's lies.

How many times have we heard President Bush and Secretary of Defense
Donald Rumsfeld tell the troops that if they die, if they return
without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?

One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of
proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the
justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The
killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for
killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be
blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two
countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail last year
that God speaks through him.

We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally
superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one
nation.

==============

this article is titled: "Put away the flags"
and was written by Howard Zinn, one of America's greatest intellectuals
and...
a World War II bombardier & author of the best-selling "A People's
History of the United States" (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest
edition).

The article is here;
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13823.htm
-------------

Please pass this around to all others who might benefit from reading a
sane and sensible article that calls for Americans to take a somber
look at their nation, and to quit blindly following the fools who are
in top leadership positions. Clearly, they are working for the filthy
rich, not for the American people.
shegeek72
2006-07-05 03:21:26 UTC
Permalink
I woke up this morning (July 4th) feeling guilty that we, as a nation,
celebrate "independence" when we should be thinking about all the
Indian lives that our ancestors took and forced the remaining onto
barren "reservations." Ancestors that brought a religion that
subjugated women, suppressed normal sexuality and burned "witches."

A nation that invaded and made a mess of Iraq, increased terrorism and
is disliked by much of the rest of the world. A president who claims to
be on a "mission from God" and suppresses stem cell research that could
cure a multitude of diseases and allow paralyzed people to walk, wants
to codify discrimination into the Constitution, overturn Oregon's
(where I reside) death with dignity law, arrest and prosecute severely
ill people who are legally allowed by state law to use medical
marijuana, etc.

Thanks for posting the article.

Tara
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://users4.ev1.net/~taragem
B.G. Kent
2006-07-06 02:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Yes true...but we can also be happy that the States...or North America
for that matter is one of the most interesting of experiments in people
learning how to get along. Yes there is a lot of mistakes..a lot of
sorrow and pain and problems aplenty...but the American people are
basically a good people...just as the Canadians are in my opinion.

We all have a long way to go. I say see the Good and the Bad
both...don't slip to far to either side.

Blessings and Happy Independance from England Day to my American friends
and family.


Bren
from Canada



On Wed,
Post by shegeek72
I woke up this morning (July 4th) feeling guilty that we, as a nation,
celebrate "independence" when we should be thinking about all the
Jonathan King
2006-07-06 02:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Raise your flags up high! Take pride in this great nation.
Post by KB
On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its
symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its
insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.
Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so
fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time,
along with racism, along with religious hatred?
Jonathan Thompson
2006-07-12 01:58:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan King
Raise your flags up high! Take pride in this great nation.
--clh]

I understand your perspective on this.

Under the Bush regime ,however,it is arguable that the beautiful American
flag has been associated with a strongly evangelical Christian agenda[and in
my mind tainted by this].

In simple terms the evangelicals believe that Israel must continue to exist
because this is one of the conditions associated with the Second Coming.This
priority is both a cornerstone of US foreign policy and blatently founded on
religious belief-so the Stars and Stripes has come to represent this stance
and the religious connections it symbolises.

Little wonder this flag has become a symbol of arrogance,hatred and
religious prejudice.What a tragedy for a democratic,secular society.
History will not judge this regime kindly.

JT
zach
2006-07-13 02:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
I woke up this morning (July 4th) feeling guilty that we, as a nation,
celebrate "independence" when we should be thinking about all the
Indian lives that our ancestors took and forced the remaining onto
barren "reservations."
And I'm thankful that in this day and age, we can escape from
reservations and live among modern folk, as my mother did, though she
couldn't hack it and killed herself in stereotypical Indian fashion. I
am also thankful that I was not born into, and do not have to live in a
Stone Age culture, but can take advantage of every opportunity
available in this country. I can live out among peoples of every
nation, color and creed who were born here, or who came here from
around the world.

I also find it refreshing, that having just gotten back from Eastern
Europe, that there are plenty of people there who still want to come
here. One of my friends wore a 4th of July shirt with an American flag
on it, and was even wished a happy holiday by a local in Budapest. I
had quite a long conversation with one Hungarian waiter and if I could
have packed him in my bag and taken him home with he, he gladly would
have come. Apparently, quite a few of them want to come here. Ditto for
Croatia, and so on....

We did see exactly two examples of Anti-Americanism there: one in Rome
(where there is graffiti on some churches, such is the pride of some of
their residents), and one in Split, in a back-alley street where
tourists don't normally go. I was slightly offended for a moment, and
then thought of the tens of thousands (millions?) of people right here
in our country who either hate themselves, or hate the nation in which
they live, and thought "Ha! so what?"
Post by shegeek72
Ancestors that brought a religion that subjugated women, suppressed normal sexuality and burned "witches."
Witches weren't burned in America (and hardly any were even killed at
all). Try some other country or time period.
shegeek72
2006-07-17 17:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by zach
Witches weren't burned in America (and hardly any were even killed at
all).
http://www.salemwitchmuseum.com/education/faq.shtml

I stand corrected. They were hanged and one "pressed to death." Their
names are:

Bridget Bishop
George Burroughs
Martha Carrier
Martha Corey
Mary Easty
Sarah Good
Elizabeth Howe
George Jacobs, Sr.
Susannah Martin
Rebecca Nurse
Alice Parker
Mary Parker
John Proctor
Ann Pudeator
Wilmott Redd
Margaret Scott
Samuel Wardwell
Sarah Wildes
John Willard

One is too many...

Tara
--
Tara's Transgender Resources
http://users4.ev1.net/~taragem
B.G. Kent
2006-07-18 03:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by zach
Witches weren't burned in America (and hardly any were even killed at
all).
http://www.salemwitchmuseum.com/education/faq.shtml
I stand corrected. They were hanged and one "pressed to death." Their
Sarah Wildes
John Willard
One is too many...
B - Yes indeed...and most all of them Christians too.

Interesting.

Bren
Jeff Caird
2006-07-18 03:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by zach
Witches weren't burned in America (and hardly any were even killed at
all).
http://www.salemwitchmuseum.com/education/faq.shtml
I stand corrected. They were hanged and one "pressed to death." Their
Bridget Bishop
...
Post by shegeek72
John Willard
One is too many...
Tara
Did you also read that all those executed were convicted on
the testimony of 'eyewitnesses?' Makes you wonder about
eyewitnesses...

Notice that there are men in the list?

The judges in these cases later repented.
--
My grandmother's brain was dead, but her heart was still
beating. It was the first time we ever had a democrat in the
family."

--Emo Phillips
Jani
2006-07-19 03:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by shegeek72
Post by zach
Witches weren't burned in America (and hardly any were even killed at
all).
http://www.salemwitchmuseum.com/education/faq.shtml
I stand corrected. They were hanged and one "pressed to death."
And it's very, very unlikely that any of them were witches in the first
place. In fact the only person who did practice anything resembling
witchcraft - Tituba, the Parris's slave - was not executed. Ironically,
according to some of the sources about Salem, several of the villagers were
in the habit of consulting Tituba for her folk-magic, and clearly didn't see
it as conflicting with their Christian beliefs.

Jani

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