$11 million in compensatory and punitive damages against Westboro

[A Brown]

There are those in this newsgroup who like to tell other they are "lost",
"depraved", "perverted", "wicked" or "damn to hell". They might find this
article interesting....

Matt and other might take a look, this is what happens when fundamentalism
(or ultra-orthodoxy) runs amok.

$11 million in compensatory and punitive damages against Westboro Baptist
Church.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-westboro1031,0,4193323,print.story

"Carrying brightly colored signs with inflammatory messages at reportedly
more than 30,000 protests, including hundreds of military funerals, members
of the congregation say the nation is losing soldiers on the battlefield
because the country has been too accepting of gays in every part of American
society, including in the military."

"...they waved fire-and-brimstone placards -- "Thank God for IEDs" and
"Fag Troops" among others -- near the funeral motorcade to bring attention
to their message."

[zach]

Post by A Brown
There are those in this newsgroup who like to tell other they are "lost",
"depraved", "perverted", "wicked" or "damn to hell". They might find this
article interesting....
Matt and other might take a look, this is what happens when fundamentalism
(or ultra-orthodoxy) runs amok.

"For years Westboro members have crisscrossed the country, turning
somber funerals of soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan into attention-
grabbing platforms to criticize homosexuals as immoral and damned. The
church's 75-member congregation is composed mainly of Phelps'
relatives."

75 people out of millions of Christians who probably fall into the
"fundamentalist" and "ultra-orthodox" category of Christian. Talk
about hyperbole.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by A Brown
There are those in this newsgroup who like to tell other they are "lost",
"depraved", "perverted", "wicked" or "damn to hell". They might find this
article interesting....

Then again, they might not. I didn't, because by making this comparison, you are
comparing apples and oranges.

[snip]

[Denis Giron]

Post by A Brown
There are those in this newsgroup who like to tell other they are "lost",
"depraved", "perverted", "wicked" or "damn to hell". They might find this
article interesting....

I think most of the people you have in mind, including Mr. Johnson
(whom you mentioned explicitly), would not have a very high opinion of
Phelps and his cohort.

Look, Christianity is (with all due respect, somewhat like Judaism and
Islam) a faith which promotes supreme confidence in the claims being
put forth. Christianity is not some ancient, tribal, shamanistic
village philosophy, where your god exists and my god exists, what I
believe is true, and what you believe, though in stark
contradistinction to what I believe, is also true. No, on the
contrary, the message of Christianity is that there is only one God,
and there is essentially only one way. Truth is truth, period.

That being said, don't think that all people who are confident about
their faith, and critical of those who try to water it down, are the
same. Mr. Johnson, whom you called out specifically, is, in some
respects, a guardian of Orthodoxy for this newsgroup, while Phelps is,
in my opinion (and with all due respect to him), a complete wackjob
who has seemed to have boiled all of Christianity down to nothing more
than an objection to homosexuality. One is trying to preserve
historical Christianity as best he can (and to the extent that he
understands it), while the other is continuing the trend of defining
theology as he goes along.

Post by A Brown
Matt and other might take a look, this is what happens when fundamentalism
(or ultra-orthodoxy) runs amok.

I'm fairly confident that Mr. Johnson will find your reference to
orthodoxy ridiculous. There is nothing orthodox about Phelps as far as
historical Christianity is concerned, except for the fact that he
believed homosexuality is a sin.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Denis Giron

Post by A Brown
There are those in this newsgroup who like to tell other they are "lost",
"depraved", "perverted", "wicked" or "damn to hell". They might find this
article interesting....

I think most of the people you have in mind, including Mr. Johnson
(whom you mentioned explicitly), would not have a very high opinion of
Phelps and his cohort.

Exactly right. Nor do I have a high opinion of those who try to pervert this
incident into an excuse (as Brown does) for condemning the truth and preaching
perverted licentiousness.

[snip]

[Rob]

Post by Matthew Johnson
condemning the truth and
perverted licentiousness.

Sounds like you could put that on a sign and stand next to the Westboro
Baptist Church and you'd fit right in!

[Dan]

Post by Denis Giron
Mr. Johnson, whom you called out specifically, is, in some
respects, a guardian of Orthodoxy...

I'm sure Rev. Phelps would say the same thing. He's standing up for
orthodoxy....

----

[I trust you realize the difference between Orthodox and
orthodox. --clh]

[Rob]

Post by Dan
[I trust you realize the difference between Orthodox and
orthodox. --clh]

Is Matt Eastern Orthodox?

---

[While I have a pretty good guess, I'd rather let Matthew answer that
for himself. --clh]

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Dan

Post by Denis Giron
Mr. Johnson, whom you called out specifically, is, in some
respects, a guardian of Orthodoxy...

I'm sure Rev. Phelps would say the same thing. He's standing up for
orthodoxy....

Well? So what? What he _would_ say, even what he _does_ say is irrelevant.
Phelps is wrong. So are you.

Post by Dan
----
[I trust you realize the difference between Orthodox and
orthodox. --clh]

I don't know _why_ the Moderator says "I trust you realize...". It should be
pretty obvious that Dan does not.

[A Brown]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Dan

Post by Denis Giron
Mr. Johnson, whom you called out specifically, is, in some
respects, a guardian of Orthodoxy...

I'm sure Rev. Phelps would say the same thing. He's standing up for
orthodoxy....

Well? So what?

So what?

The point is that just because someone is _saying_ they are standing up for
"orthodoxy" doesn't mean they even know ahat they are talking about.

The world is full of people who say that _their_ understanding of God is the
only tolerable one.

Most of them haven't a clue.

[Dan]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Dan

Post by Denis Giron
Mr. Johnson, whom you called out specifically, is, in some
respects, a guardian of Orthodoxy...

I'm sure Rev. Phelps would say the same thing. He's standing up for
orthodoxy....

Well? So what?

and i think that too is the same response Rev Phelps gives when someone
catches him..."so what!"

Post by Matthew Johnson
What he _would_ say, even what he _does_ say is irrelevant.

so irrelevant that it cost him 11 million. ;-)

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Dan

Post by Denis Giron
Mr. Johnson, whom you called out specifically, is, in some
respects, a guardian of Orthodoxy...

I'm sure Rev. Phelps would say the same thing. He's standing up for
orthodoxy....

Well? So what?

So what?
The point is that just because someone is _saying_ they are standing up for
"orthodoxy" doesn't mean they even know ahat they are talking about.

Finally, something we can agree on;) What a pity you yourself are one of those
who does not know what you are talking about.

Post by Matthew Johnson
The world is full of people who say that _their_ understanding of God is the
only tolerable one.

The world is not 'full' of such anymore. They are outnumbered by those who deny
the existence of God, either by what they say, or what they do.

Post by Matthew Johnson
Most of them haven't a clue.

And this "most of them" would certainly have to include you. For ever since you
first intruded into this thread, you have given only irrelevant fallacies as
objections, evaded true dialectical argument, and offered the most irresponsible
mis-interpretations of Scripture I have _ever_ seen.

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by Dan

Post by Matthew Johnson

Post by Dan

Post by Denis Giron
Mr. Johnson, whom you called out specifically, is, in some
respects, a guardian of Orthodoxy...

I'm sure Rev. Phelps would say the same thing. He's standing up for
orthodoxy....

Well? So what?

and i think that too is the same response Rev Phelps gives when someone
catches him..."so what!"

Post by Matthew Johnson
What he _would_ say, even what he _does_ say is irrelevant.

so irrelevant that it cost him 11 million. ;-)

Has it? He hasn't paid it yet. Just you watch: he will get the penalty
drastically reduced or even tossed out of court. And don't think it will stop
him, either. He will insist that this is the persecution Christ predicted in Mat
5:11-12.

[Catherine Jefferson]

Post by A Brown
There are those in this newsgroup who like to tell other they are "lost",
"depraved", "perverted", "wicked" or "damn to hell". They might find this
article interesting....
Matt and other might take a look, this is what happens when fundamentalism
(or ultra-orthodoxy) runs amok.

<snip, but I'm well aware of the lawsuit against Phelps and the
judgement against him.>

Why would that have anything to do with what anybody says here, or in
any newsgroup? That award was for intentional, gratuitous infliction of
emotional distress at a private event. It had nothing to do with
anything said in a public square and when not intruding on a funeral!

And it couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of people. </tongue in cheek>

Your post, however, is worrisome because it appears intended to persuade
people that they're in danger of large damage awards because of their
peacefully expressed religious beliefs. That idea is ludicrous. The
type of speech I've seen Matt and others engage in here is protected in
the United States as long as it takes place publicly and does not
intrude in private areas. If he or one of the others were to drive a
sound truck down a public street at 3:00 AM blasting their message out,
*then* they'd be in trouble, probably with the police first and only
then with the civil courts. Ditto if he or one of the others did the
Usenet equivalent, which would be spammming their message in such
quantities as to drown out other discussion. But I've seen no such
behavior from any of them.

So let's leave the scaremongering out of it. I, for one, am enjoying
the poetic justice of having a U.S. civil court so thoroughly recognize
the difference between peaceful expression of unpopular opinions, as
many here do, and abusive *behavior* by people less interested in
expressing opinions than in hurting innocent people. I don't usually
expect the courts in my country to understand such subtleties so well. ;)

[Zor-El of Argo City]

This 'church' is a family enterprise. Any connection between this
organization and Cristianity is purely coincidental.

Somehow Pastor Phelps missed the seminary lesson on "Hate the sin but
love the sinner".

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