Discussion:
Homosexuality: an Imaginary Interview with Jesus
(too old to reply)
**Rowland Croucher**
2007-11-26 00:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Here's an imaginary interview with Jesus about homosexuality, posted
sporadically on these newsgroups over the past dozen years. Some of the
statistics/aetiology issues need updating, but generally I'd still
affirm this general stance. (Expect in response 'corrective' - that's
the softest word - opinions from others either to my ideological/
theological left or right :-)

Rowland Croucher

****

Interviewer: Jesus, you had a reputation for hanging around with those
on the edges/margins of society. But some of my homosexual friends and
clients wonder why you said nothing about homosexuality, even though it
was rife back then. We're in a 'bi' bar in San Francisco... why are you
here?

# Jesus: Hi! I was invited by a friend. Remember when Matthew threw a
party for his mafia-type mates? I was enjoying myself before the
religious leaders gate-crashed it.

More... http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/12135.htm
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)

Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/

Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
Helmut Richter
2007-11-27 01:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Here's an imaginary interview with Jesus about homosexuality, posted
sporadically on these newsgroups over the past dozen years.
As I have written earlier
<***@lxhri01.lrz.lrz-muenchen.de>, it is
an extremely bad idea to put one's own ideas in the mouth of Jesus.
Even if one considers one's own ideas as equal in significance to
those of Jesus.
--
Helmut Richter
**Rowland Croucher**
2007-11-28 04:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Richter
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Here's an imaginary interview with Jesus about homosexuality, posted
sporadically on these newsgroups over the past dozen years.
As I have written earlier
an extremely bad idea to put one's own ideas in the mouth of Jesus.
Which of course is what everyone who practises WWJD / WWJS / does...

Our homiletical role is to apply the principles Jesus taught/practised
to current situations. ISTM only homophobic folks have a problem with
that, in this context...
Post by Helmut Richter
Even if one considers one's own ideas as equal in significance to
those of Jesus.
A remark uncalled-for...
--
Shalom/Salaam/Pax! Rowland Croucher

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)

Blogs - http://rowlandsblogs.blogspot.com/

Justice for Dawn Rowan - http://dawnrowansaga.blogspot.com/

Funny Jokes and Pics - http://funnyjokesnpics.blogspot.com/
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-28 04:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Richter
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Here's an imaginary interview with Jesus about homosexuality, posted
sporadically on these newsgroups over the past dozen years.
As I have written earlier
an extremely bad idea to put one's own ideas in the mouth of Jesus.
Especially when, as in Rowland's case, his own ideas are so _obviously_ contrary
to anything Jesus could have said, given the prevailing attitude towards
homosexuality in His time.
Post by Helmut Richter
Even if one considers one's own ideas as equal in significance to
those of Jesus.
Well, I don't think Rowland has fallen _that_ far;) Yet I am tempted to wonder,
seeing that he has done this "extremely bad idea" not just once, but over and
over. He has not learned from his mistake.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Charles Lindsey
2007-11-29 02:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Especially when, as in Rowland's case, his own ideas are so _obviously_ contrary
to anything Jesus could have said, given the prevailing attitude towards
homosexuality in His time.
There was a pretty severe attitude towards adultery at the time, but Jesus
did not tolerate it.

His attidue towards any form of sexual activity (homo or hetero) would
first be "Why are you doing this? Is it intended to express your mutual
love and concern?". A loving homosexual relationship is surely more
acceptable to God than a heterosexual relationship which merely expresses
the dominance of one party over the other.

That may or may not make the homosexual act "right", but it is surely
asking the most important questions first.
--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: ***@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5
BoB
2007-11-28 04:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Richter
=20
Here's an imaginary interview with Jesus about homosexuality, posted=20
sporadically on these newsgroups over the past dozen years.
=20
As I have written earlier
an extremely bad idea to put one's own ideas in the mouth of Jesus.
Even if one considers one's own ideas as equal in significance to
those of Jesus.
=20
You're so right...so why don't you tell the same thing to all those=20
homophobic persons who USE the bible and the gospels to justify their=20
phobia ?
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-29 02:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by BoB
Post by Helmut Richter
=20
Here's an imaginary interview with Jesus about homosexuality, posted=20
sporadically on these newsgroups over the past dozen years.
=20
As I have written earlier
an extremely bad idea to put one's own ideas in the mouth of Jesus.
Even if one considers one's own ideas as equal in significance to
those of Jesus.
=20
You're so right...so why don't you tell the same thing to all those=20
homophobic persons who USE the bible and the gospels to justify their=20
phobia ?
The answer is quite simple. You are asking a "loaded question". You are
_assuming_ that the people using the Bible are "justifying phobia" rather than
condemning sin.

But the truth is quite opposed to your assumption. The Bible, especially the
Letters of Paul, clearly condemn ALL homosexual activity as very grave sin
indeed.

Really, both Romans and 1 Corinthians are quite clear about this. It is only
certain translators, bowing to a particularly wicked sort of political pressure,
who obscure the harsh condemnation in both these letters.

Do a search in the archives for 1 Cor 6:9 and its key words "ARSENOKOITAI" (nom.
sg: ARSENOKOITHS) and MALAKOI (nom. sg: MALAKOS). Then you will see that this
dead horse has been beaten long enough already. Do not believe any of the
dissemblers who make up excuses for beleiving that these words referred only to
prostitution. That is clearly false.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-29 02:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Post by Helmut Richter
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Here's an imaginary interview with Jesus about homosexuality, posted
sporadically on these newsgroups over the past dozen years.
As I have written earlier
an extremely bad idea to put one's own ideas in the mouth of Jesus.
Which of course is what everyone who practises WWJD / WWJS / does...
First of all, this bumper-sticker approach was always at best a very limited
approach. Secondly, not _every_ application of the question "what would Jesus
do" was so fruitless. At least occasionally, the question _has_ been a good
starting point for thinking about how to see the "homilectial role" you mention
below.
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Our homiletical role is to apply the principles Jesus taught/practised
to current situations.
But this is what you are NOT doing, when you put words in His mouth.
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
ISTM only homophobic folks have a problem with
that,
But this isn't true,
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
in this context...
so it can't be relevant to "this context".
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Post by Helmut Richter
Even if one considers one's own ideas as equal in significance to
those of Jesus.
A remark uncalled-for...
No, it really _was_ called-for. Your elaborate fake interview was NOT valid
homilectics, it was a disgusting attempt to con the reader into believing that
Jesus taught the parody of the Gospel that you teach by repeating that same bad
post over and over.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Helmut Richter
2007-11-29 02:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Post by Helmut Richter
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Here's an imaginary interview with Jesus about homosexuality, posted
sporadically on these newsgroups over the past dozen years.
As I have written earlier
an extremely bad idea to put one's own ideas in the mouth of Jesus.
The article cannot be found under that msg-id. Due to moderation, the
article was stored with another msg-id, to wit
<U%Wii.1907$***@trnddc03>. Among other things, I had written:

With this term ["ideology-laden"] I mean simply the fact that it has
become impossible to utter any opinion without being accused of vile
motives by those who disagree. This has little to do with who is
right or wrong but describes only the witch-hunt atmosphere which
can emerge on *both* sides.

What I meant, is: Whoever would find *anything* worthy of consideration in
that article would be accused of giving up biblical principles, and whoever
could have *any* objection to the article would be called "homophobic". No
matter what kind of objections he has.
Post by **Rowland Croucher**
Our homiletical role is to apply the principles Jesus taught/practised
to current situations. ISTM only homophobic folks have a problem with
that, in this context...
Bingo.
--
Helmut Richter
Helmut Richter
2007-11-29 02:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Helmut Richter
Even if one considers one's own ideas as equal in significance to
those of Jesus.
Well, I don't think Rowland has fallen _that_ far;)
That is right. I should not have written that.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Yet I am tempted to wonder, seeing that he has done this "extremely bad
idea" not just once, but over and over. He has not learned from his
mistake.
That is the point. Rowland should have had the opportunity to learn that not
only his ideas are contested (which is no surprise given the controversial
topic) but also their presentation as apodictic.

In my response <U%Wii.1907$***@trnddc03> to Rowland's previous posting
of this fictitious interview I have explained why I consider the atmosphere
in which discussions about homosexuality and Christian faith take place as
unsuitable for presenting one's position as uncontestably Jesus's
position. Now, were it a question about which there is only a disagreement
which is being discussed among friends in a civilised manner in order to
find the truth, I would have accepted that as a witty form of presenting
one's ideas. But I am observing that the opponents are calling each other
names. So it is required to take much more care to express one's thoughts
in a way that the disputant is not silenced as counter-Jesus before he has
had the opportunity to say a word.
--
Helmut Richter
A Brown
2007-11-30 03:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by BoB
You're so right...so why don't you tell the same thing to all those=20
homophobic persons who USE the bible and the gospels to justify their=20
phobia ?
The answer is quite simple. You are asking a "loaded question".
Just wondering.... Do you have a trademark on that term? ;-)
Post by Matthew Johnson
You are
_assuming_ that the people using the Bible are "justifying phobia" rather
than
condemning sin.
Well, if you look at the fact that some sins are tolerated and others are
not, (we tolerate divorce more than we tolerate homosexuality), we can see
that people can and do use the Bible to affirm their own fears and
prejudices.
Matthew Johnson
2007-11-30 03:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Lindsey
Post by Matthew Johnson
Especially when, as in Rowland's case, his own ideas are so
_obviously_ contrary to anything Jesus could have said, given the
prevailing attitude towards homosexuality in His time.
There was a pretty severe attitude towards adultery at the time, but
Jesus did not tolerate it.
Did not tolerate which? The adultery, or the severe attitude? Either
way, you will have a hard time backing up your position.
Post by Charles Lindsey
His attidue towards any form of sexual activity (homo or hetero)
would first be "Why are you doing this? Is it intended to express
your mutual love and concern?".
You are overconfident of your conclusion.
Post by Charles Lindsey
A loving homosexual relationship is surely more acceptable to God
than a heterosexual relationship which merely expresses the dominance
of one party over the other.
Again, here you are overconfident. WAY too overconfident. I am just as
confident as you are, but of the _opposite_ conclusion: that there is
no way He would condone any homosexual relationship, 'loving' or
not. But since my confidence is based on the 2000 year Tradition of
the Church, _and_ on sound philology _and_ on consistent
hermeneutics, I am not _over_ confident.
Post by Charles Lindsey
That may or may not make the homosexual act "right", but it is surely
asking the most important questions first.
Actually, no, it is not. You seem to have misremembered the "first and
greatest commandment" and His explanation of it. But Iiii can at least
agree with you on one part: that does not make the "homosexual act
'right'". Nothing can. Christ's own 'chosen vessel' made that crystal
clear in 1 Cor 6:9. Only bad translations obscure that crystal clarity.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Matthew Johnson
2007-12-03 02:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by BoB
You're so right...so why don't you tell the same thing to all those=20
homophobic persons who USE the bible and the gospels to justify their=20
phobia ?
The answer is quite simple. You are asking a "loaded question".
Just wondering.... Do you have a trademark on that term? ;-)
No, but maybe I'll apply for it;)
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
You are
_assuming_ that the people using the Bible are "justifying phobia" rather
than
condemning sin.
Well, if you look at the fact that some sins are tolerated and others are
not, (we tolerate divorce more than we tolerate homosexuality), we can see
that people can and do use the Bible to affirm their own fears and
prejudices.
And they sin severely every time they do this. Fortunately, not everybody does
this all the time when they use the Bible to teach against such severe sins as
homosexual behavior.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
A Brown
2007-12-05 04:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Brown
Well, if you look at the fact that some sins are tolerated and others are
not, (we tolerate divorce more than we tolerate homosexuality), we can see
that people can and do use the Bible to affirm their own fears and
prejudices.
And they sin severely every time they do this.Fortunately, not everybody
does
this all the time when they use the Bible to teach against such severe
sins as
homosexual behavior.
First, I have seen your screeds about homosexuality.

But nothing about divorce...which certainly affects more people than
homosexuality.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
You are
_assuming_ that the people using the Bible are "justifying phobia"
rather
than
condemning sin.
You can tell a lot about someone by which sins they choose to speak out
against.... phobias, bias, lack of enlightenment? Whatever the reason.

Second, we would assume that "homosexual behavior" is less severe than
say....keeping slaves.

But the Bible is silent on that topic.
Matthew Johnson
2007-12-06 01:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Brown
Post by A Brown
Well, if you look at the fact that some sins are tolerated and others are
not, (we tolerate divorce more than we tolerate homosexuality), we can see
that people can and do use the Bible to affirm their own fears and
prejudices.
And they sin severely every time they do this.Fortunately, not
everybody does this all the time when they use the Bible to teach
against such severe sins as homosexual behavior.
First, I have seen your screeds about homosexuality.
It isn't 'screed'.
Post by A Brown
But nothing about divorce.
You want screeds against divorce? I let other people write those.
Post by A Brown
..which certainly affects more people than homosexuality.
So? There are many principles other than "how many people it affects"
that determine my choice of what to write about.
Post by A Brown
Post by A Brown
You are _assuming_ that the people using the Bible are
"justifying phobia" rather than condemning sin.
You can tell a lot about someone by which sins they choose to speak out
against.... phobias, bias, lack of enlightenment? Whatever the reason.
I can, but you cannot. You have already demonstrated this with your
repeated failures.
Post by A Brown
Second, we would assume that "homosexual behavior" is less severe than
say....keeping slaves.
And why are you so sure we should assume this? Your false assumption
here tells a lot about _your_ bias and lack of enlightenment.
Post by A Brown
But the Bible is silent on that topic.
No, it isn't silent on that topic. It has numerous rules concerning
how master and slave should relate to one another. The rules are far
more humane than anything you could find in non-biblical rules of that
time.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
A Brown
2007-12-07 03:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by A Brown
Well, if you look at the fact that some sins are tolerated and others
are
not, (we tolerate divorce more than we tolerate homosexuality), we can
see
that people can and do use the Bible to affirm their own fears and
prejudices.
And they sin severely every time they do this.Fortunately, not
everybody does this all the time when they use the Bible to teach
against such severe sins as homosexual behavior.
First, I have seen your screeds about homosexuality.
It isn't 'screed'.
Call it what you will....I'll call it what I will...

Main Entry:
screed
Pronunciation:
\'skred\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English screde fragment, alteration of Old English screade - more
at shred
Date:
circa 1789
1 a: a lengthy discourse b: an informal piece of writing (as a personal
letter) c: a ranting piece of writing
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
But nothing about divorce.
You want screeds against divorce? I let other people write those.
Which, again, makes people wonder why there are some sins that people have
more tolerance of....and some they have no tolerance of.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
..which certainly affects more people than homosexuality.
So? There are many principles other than "how many people it affects"
that determine my choice of what to write about.
Thats the point.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by A Brown
You are _assuming_ that the people using the Bible are
"justifying phobia" rather than condemning sin.
You can tell a lot about someone by which sins they choose to speak out
against.... phobias, bias, lack of enlightenment? Whatever the reason.
I can, but you cannot.
People are free to make their own assumptions based on that which you leave
in your wake.,
Post by Matthew Johnson
You have already demonstrated this with your
repeated failures.
As the commercial states: "People judge you by the words you use".
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Second, we would assume that "homosexual behavior" is less severe than
say....keeping slaves.
And why are you so sure we should assume this?
Why do you assume it is more severe?
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your false assumption
here tells a lot about _your_ bias and lack of enlightenment.
So, keeping slaves is a much _less_ severe sin than homosexuality?

Please enlighten us!
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
But the Bible is silent on that topic.
No, it isn't silent on that topic. It has numerous rules concerning
how master and slave should relate to one another.
Where is the scripture that tells Masters to FREE their slaves?
Post by Matthew Johnson
The rules are far
more humane than anything you could find in non-biblical rules of that
time.
I think the non-biblical rules written by the slaves themselves would have
been more humane.
Matthew Johnson
2007-12-09 23:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by A Brown
Well, if you look at the fact that some sins are tolerated and
others are not, (we tolerate divorce more than we tolerate
homosexuality), we can see that people can and do use the Bible
to affirm their own fears and prejudices.
And they sin severely every time they do this.Fortunately, not
everybody does this all the time when they use the Bible to teach
against such severe sins as homosexual behavior.
First, I have seen your screeds about homosexuality.
It isn't 'screed'.
Call it what you will....I'll call it what I will...
And what did you hope to establish with _this_ non-rebuttal? Your own
obstinacy, perhaps? You certainly have established nothing else.

[snip]
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
But nothing about divorce.
You want screeds against divorce? I let other people write those.
Which, again, makes people wonder why there are some sins that people have
more tolerance of....and some they have no tolerance of.
Well, if you would only _wonder_ about it, that would not be so
bad. But you do not refrain from doing worse than this. Instead, you
use it as an excuse to raise the false accusation of double-standards
against people whose positions you have never even made the effort to
understand.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
..which certainly affects more people than homosexuality.
So? There are many principles other than "how many people it
affects" that determine my choice of what to write about.
Thats the point.
It is? It isn't the point _you_ made. It sounds to me like you need to
reread your own words.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by A Brown
You are _assuming_ that the people using the Bible are
"justifying phobia" rather than condemning sin.
You can tell a lot about someone by which sins they choose to speak out
against.... phobias, bias, lack of enlightenment? Whatever the reason.
I can, but you cannot.
People are free to make their own assumptions based on that which you
leave in your wake.,
Then don't be so surprised when others do it to you too. Even more
important, don't be surprised when people who (like you) revel in such
assumptions are usually WRONG. You certainly are wrong.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
You have already demonstrated this with your repeated failures.
As the commercial states: "People judge you by the words you use".
If only you would apply this same principle to yourself and your
words! Then you would have known better to brand my writing 'screed'.

But you do not know better. Instead, after quoting Scripture out of
context, after quoting me out of context, now you are even quoting the
commercial out of context.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Second, we would assume that "homosexual behavior" is less severe
than say....keeping slaves.
And why are you so sure we should assume this?
Why do you assume it is more severe?
This is a perfect example of "answering a question with a question" as
pure obstructionism. You should have answered the question first.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your false assumption here tells a lot about _your_ bias and lack
of enlightenment.
So, keeping slaves is a much _less_ severe sin than homosexuality?
Please enlighten us!
You resist enlightnment with every one of these numerous screeds that
you post. And now you pretend to be interested in it? Don't expect to
fool anyone other than yourself.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
But the Bible is silent on that topic.
No, it isn't silent on that topic. It has numerous rules concerning
how master and slave should relate to one another.
Where is the scripture that tells Masters to FREE their slaves?
Rom 13:1-2. For _all_ civil authorities in the modern world have
banned slavery. Christians are bound by these verses to obey that ban.

But you still miss the point: this ban became possibly _only_ because
of the development of the modern market economy, with the (relatively)
free movement of labor, trade and capital. Since the ban was _not_
possible in Bible times, it could _not_ be a moral commandment to free
their slaves.
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
The rules are far more humane than anything you could find in
non-biblical rules of that time.
I think the non-biblical rules written by the slaves themselves would
have been more humane.
Oh, would you? But you haven't even ever READ any. I have. Read
Epictetus. You will find his 'rules' much closer to mine than to
yours. Yes, Epictetus, unlike you, was 'enlightened'. And in case you
didn't know, Epictetus was a slave himself. Yet what did he say about
slavery? He said:

When, then, we are doing anything not rightly, from this day we shall
impute it to nothing else than to the will from which we have done it:
and it is that which we shall endeavour to take away and to extirpate
more than the tumours and abscesses out of the body. And in like
manner we shall give the same account of the cause of the things which
we do right; and we shall no longer allege as causes of any evil to
us, either slave or neighbour, or wife or children, being persuaded
that, if we do not think things to he what we do think them to be, we
do not the acts which follow from such opinions; and as to thinking or
not thinking, that is in our power and not in externals.
(Discourse Book I Ch. 11)
[http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/discourses.1.one.html]

Your standard of morality is a fiction of your own imagination. For
you are still obsessed with looking to externals for the causes of
evil, and excusing yourself for your wickedness. Even the pagan
Epictetus knew better. When will you know as well?
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
R P
2007-12-14 03:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
First, I have seen your screeds about homosexuality.
It isn't 'screed'.
Call it what you will....I'll call it what I will...
And what did you hope to establish with _this_ non-rebuttal?
The point that your postings are indeed, by the technical definition, a
"screed".

Main Entry:
screed
Pronunciation:
\'skred\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English screde fragment, alteration of Old English screade - more
at shred
Date:
circa 1789
1 a: a lengthy discourse b: an informal piece of writing (as a personal
letter) c: a ranting piece of writing
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
You certainly have established nothing else.
I've establishged that you apparently don't know the definition of a
'screed'.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
..which certainly affects more people than homosexuality.
So? There are many principles other than "how many people it
affects" that determine my choice of what to write about.
Thats the point.
It is? It isn't the point _you_ made.
The point is that your pet peeve is homosexuality...for some reason. You
want to write and comment upon it, and leave many other more vile sins
alone.

The point made is that you pick and choose whcih sins you think are
important.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
You can tell a lot about someone by which sins they choose to speak out
against.... phobias, bias, lack of enlightenment? Whatever the reason.
I can, but you cannot.
People are free to make their own assumptions based on that which you
leave in your wake.,
Then don't be so surprised when others do it to you too.
Not suprised at all. After all, it's a discussion group...with people and
opinions.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Even more
important, don't be surprised when people who (like you) revel in such
assumptions are usually WRONG. You certainly are wrong.
"Certainly"? In your mind maybe...but who knows what is going on there....
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
You have already demonstrated this with your repeated failures.
As the commercial states: "People judge you by the words you use".
If only you would apply this same principle to yourself and your
words! Then you would have known better to brand my writing 'screed'.
But you do not know better. Instead, after quoting Scripture out of
context, after quoting me out of context, now you are even quoting the
commercial out of context.
It's not out of context, it's the context necessary to makes the point.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Second, we would assume that "homosexual behavior" is less severe
than say....keeping slaves.
And why are you so sure we should assume this?
Why do you assume it is more severe?
This is a perfect example of "answering a question with a question" as
pure obstructionism. You should have answered the question first.
No, because it is you that is trying to prove me wrong. The oweness is on
you. If you can't, my statement stands.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your false assumption here tells a lot about _your_ bias and lack
of enlightenment.
So, keeping slaves is a much _less_ severe sin than homosexuality?
Please enlighten us!
You resist enlightnment...
You always have your opportunity with every posting....however, you decide
to derail the discussion with attacks on others. However, just like the
above, you walk away from the opportunity.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
But the Bible is silent on that topic.
No, it isn't silent on that topic. It has numerous rules concerning
how master and slave should relate to one another.
Where is the scripture that tells Masters to FREE their slaves?
Rom 13:1-2. For _all_ civil authorities in the modern world have
banned slavery. Christians are bound by these verses to obey that ban.
Thats nice today...but what about the slaves of that time?

Previously, with the Priest scandal, you poo-poo-ed civil laws and
justice...now you value them?

Again, you pick and choose.

BTW...Where in Canon Law does it say to free all slaves?
Post by Matthew Johnson
But you still miss the point: this ban became possibly _only_ because
of the development of the modern market economy, with the (relatively)
free movement of labor, trade and capital. Since the ban was _not_
possible in Bible times, it could _not_ be a moral commandment to free
their slaves.
Give me a break! That makes as much sense as donkey dung!
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
The rules are far more humane than anything you could find in
non-biblical rules of that time.
I think the non-biblical rules written by the slaves themselves would
have been more humane.
Oh, would you? But you haven't even ever READ any.
Well, there were many slaves that could not read/write. Never mind have the
ability to save writings for the future.
Post by Matthew Johnson
You will find his 'rules' much closer to mine than to
yours.
What are "my" rules? Free all slaves?

What are yours? Keep them slaves?
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your standard of morality is a fiction of your own imagination.
My standard of morality is Jesus Christ himself.

I hope you are not saying Jesus is a figment of one's imagination.....
Matthew Johnson
2007-12-17 03:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
First, I have seen your screeds about homosexuality.
It isn't 'screed'.
Call it what you will....I'll call it what I will...
And what did you hope to establish with _this_ non-rebuttal?
The point that your postings are indeed, by the technical definition,
a "screed".
But only in sense 1b. Yet you are obviously trying to use 'screed' as
a perjorative term, which would be correct only for 1c. And you didn't
establish 1b by saying "I'llc all it what I will".

I have noticed that this is a common problem of yours. You make some
stupid statement, and then to 'establish' it, you make an even worse
statement, one that establishes nothing. Then you dance your victory
dance around your imaginary victory.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
You certainly have established nothing else.
I've establishged that you apparently don't know the definition of a
'screed'.
You have established nothing of the kind. See above.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
..which certainly affects more people than homosexuality.
So? There are many principles other than "how many people it
affects" that determine my choice of what to write about.
Thats the point.
It is? It isn't the point _you_ made.
The point is that your pet peeve is homosexuality...for some reason.
You want to write and comment upon it, and leave many other more vile
sins alone.
Not at all even true! You are once more resorting to the fallacy of
the "false generalization". I write and comment about many other
things, even in this same NG. It is _you_ who is writing peevishly all
the time in response. So who's the one with a "pet peeve"? Not me.
Post by R P
The point made is that you pick and choose whcih sins you think are
important.
No, it is not _I_ who do the "picking and choosing". Rather, it is
Canon Law. There are very few other sins that Canon Law punishes so
harshly.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
You can tell a lot about someone by which sins they choose to speak out
against.... phobias, bias, lack of enlightenment? Whatever the reason.
I can, but you cannot.
People are free to make their own assumptions based on that which you
leave in your wake.,
Then don't be so surprised when others do it to you too.
Not suprised at all.
Then you have even less excuse for your puerile responses.
Post by R P
After all, it's a discussion group...with people and opinions.
And your opinions are always the worst, since they are the true
'screed', screed based on ignorance and petulance.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Even more important, don't be surprised when people who (like you)
revel in such assumptions are usually WRONG. You certainly are
wrong.
"Certainly"? In your mind maybe...but who knows what is going on there....
I do know. It is 'certainly'. It is just as certaintly NOT just "in my
mind".
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
You have already demonstrated this with your repeated failures.
As the commercial states: "People judge you by the words you use".
If only you would apply this same principle to yourself and your
words! Then you would have known better to brand my writing 'screed'.
But you do not know better. Instead, after quoting Scripture out of
context, after quoting me out of context, now you are even quoting the
commercial out of context.
It's not out of context, it's the context necessary to makes the point.
No, it is not the context. and your quotes are very much out of
context. But this is only to be expected when you snip without
responding on point or marking where you snip.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Second, we would assume that "homosexual behavior" is less severe
than say....keeping slaves.
And why are you so sure we should assume this?
Why do you assume it is more severe?
This is a perfect example of "answering a question with a question" as
pure obstructionism. You should have answered the question first.
No, because it is you that is trying to prove me wrong.
Well, of course I am proving you wrong. Because _you_ are trying to
prove _me_ wrong -- or engaging in pure obstructionism. Or is it both?
Post by R P
The oweness is on you.
The word is 'onus', and it is on you, since it was you who said, 'we
would assume that "homosexual behavior" is less severe than
say....keeping slaves.' With this, you are trying to distract from the
real point, by offering a 'proof' that is no proof at all. Since it is
none, the onus is on you.
Post by R P
If you can't, my statement stands.
No, it does not. Stop "shifting the burden".
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your false assumption here tells a lot about _your_ bias and lack
of enlightenment.
So, keeping slaves is a much _less_ severe sin than homosexuality?
Please enlighten us!
You resist enlightnment...
You always have your opportunity with every posting....however, you
decide to derail the discussion with attacks on others.
It is you, not I, who is "derailing the discussion". You do this with
your peevish accusations of 'screed', you do this by not marking where
you snip etc.
Post by R P
However, just like the above, you walk away from the opportunity.
It is you, not I, who is "walking away from the opportunity". You do
this with your peevish accusations of 'screed', you do this by not
marking where you snip. You do this with non-rebuttals like your
incredibly puerile "donkey dung".

Who do you think you can fool by repeatedly accusing others of what
you are clearly guilty?
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
But the Bible is silent on that topic.
No, it isn't silent on that topic. It has numerous rules concerning
how master and slave should relate to one another.
Where is the scripture that tells Masters to FREE their slaves?
Rom 13:1-2. For _all_ civil authorities in the modern world have
banned slavery. Christians are bound by these verses to obey that ban.
Thats nice today...but what about the slaves of that time?
You miss the point: predictably. There was NO moral imperative to free
them.
Post by R P
Previously, with the Priest scandal, you poo-poo-ed civil laws and
justice...now you value them?
You did not understand what I was doing then, and you still do not
understand what I am doing now.
Post by R P
Again, you pick and choose.
You did not understand what I was doing then, and you still do not
understand what I am doing now.
Post by R P
BTW...Where in Canon Law does it say to free all slaves?
Again: that is the wrong question. It even has the same answer as your
previous question, but you ignored that one too.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
But you still miss the point: this ban became possibly _only_
because of the development of the modern market economy, with the
(relatively) free movement of labor, trade and capital. Since the
ban was _not_ possible in Bible times, it could _not_ be a moral
commandment to free their slaves.
Give me a break! That makes as much sense as donkey dung!
No, it makes perfect sense. Even Isaac Asimov gave the same
reasoning. And he was an awowed atheist.

So you are in effect calling even Asimov's reasoning "donkey dung". If
you don't realize what a fool you make of yourself doing this, don't
worry: everyone else in the NG will notice.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
The rules are far more humane than anything you could find in
non-biblical rules of that time.
I think the non-biblical rules written by the slaves themselves would
have been more humane.
Oh, would you? But you haven't even ever READ any.
Well, there were many slaves that could not read/write. Never mind
have the ability to save writings for the future.
But this is IRRELEVANT, since there was one who did.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
You will find his 'rules' much closer to mine than to
yours.
What are "my" rules? Free all slaves?
Apparently, since you keep on condemning the Bible for not making that
rule.
Post by R P
What are yours? Keep them slaves?
It is puerile to ask what has already been answered. It is even worse
than puerile to do as you have done, to ask this after _snipping_ the
answer.
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Your standard of morality is a fiction of your own imagination.
My standard of morality is Jesus Christ himself.
No, it is not. Jesus Christ never commanded freeing all slaves through
all time. Nor did He ever command the defense of depravity -- which
you do in every post. Yet you are insisting on the one and always
doing the other.

Your real standard of morality is the devil himself.
Post by R P
I hope you are not saying Jesus is a figment of one's imagination.....
Of course not. But the 'Jesus' YOU follow IS. That 'Jesus' is a
figment of your perverse imagination, having no relation at all with
the real Jesus.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
R P
2008-01-24 01:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by R P
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by A Brown
First, I have seen your screeds about homosexuality.
It isn't 'screed'.
Call it what you will....I'll call it what I will...
And what did you hope to establish with _this_ non-rebuttal?
The point that your postings are indeed, by the technical definition,
a "screed".
But only in sense 1b.
I think thats the defintion that was being used.

Thanks for pointing it out.
l***@hotmail.com
2008-01-28 02:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Lindsey
His attidue towards any form of sexual activity (homo or hetero) would
first be "Why are you doing this? Is it intended to express your mutual
love and concern?". A loving homosexual relationship is surely more
acceptable to God than a heterosexual relationship which merely expresses
the dominance of one party over the other.
That may or may not make the homosexual act "right", but it is surely
asking the most important questions first.
This is standard revisionist fair -synthetic reasoning. It also
presumes (wrongly) that "Love is God". My bible teaches that God's
attributes are not governed by His love, but by His holiness. It is
holiness that makes all His other attributes beautiful. An unholy love
is actually quite selfish.

You seem to being dressing homosexuality up in the emperor's clothes
and achieving the same result.
A Brown
2008-01-30 01:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@hotmail.com
My bible teaches that God's
attributes are not governed by His love, but by His holiness.
Where does it teach this?

When Jesus walked among us, he seemed to be motivated by love...in it's pure
form.
s***@yahoo.com
2008-02-04 01:22:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Brown
When Jesus walked among us, he seemed to be motivated by love...in it's pure
form.
Absolutely, That's the fulfillment of the law, and it works a lot
better than trying to
remember the 613 commandments.

Nils K. Hammer

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