Discussion:
Investigating Virtue and Desire
(too old to reply)
m***@gmail.com
2008-03-09 20:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Hello, everyone.

I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.

I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)

Thanks,
Matthew Lowe
Kent Johnson
2008-03-11 10:38:18 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joubin Houshyar" <***@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
soc.religion.bahai,soc.religion.christian,soc.religion.hindu,soc.religion.islam,soc.religion.mormon
To: <soc-religion-***@moderators.isc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: Investigating Virtue and Desire
Salaam Matthew,
Desire, timely and true, is a Virtue. & Virtue Is Desiring the
Timely_and_True.
Desiring 'that_which_Is_not' is a deadly sin; know it as lust (which
is not True Desire).
There IS only ONE; of that you should be certain. Knowing this, then,
Desire Union with The ONE with all your heart, all your might and all
your Being.
/& Salaam
Post by m***@gmail.com
Hello, everyone.
I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.
I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)
Thanks,
Matthew Lowe
Kent Johnson
2008-03-11 10:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matthew,

My faith tradition says that the fundamental purpose God has for us to exist
on this earth is to develop virtues and learn to resist the irrational
callings of desire. We are told that our purpose is to know and love God
and detach ourselves from all else. God is the source of all virtue, and
detachment from worldly desire is a first step toward Him.

A paragraph about virtue:
Briefly; the Blessed Perfection bore all these ordeals and calamities in
order that our hearts might become enkindled and radiant, our spirits be
glorified, our faults become virtues, our ignorance transformed into
knowledge; in order that we might attain the real fruits of humanity and
acquire heavenly graces; although pilgrims upon earth we should travel the
road of the heavenly kingdom; although needy and poor we might receive the
treasures of life eternal. For this has He borne these difficulties and
sorrows. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 224)

More than a paragraph about desire:
The soil is inferior to the tree; the tree is nevertheless dependent upon it
for its existence. In spite of this dependence, the tree grows in the
opposite direction, away from the soil. As if disliking the soil, it raises
up its branches high towards the sky. This is similar to man and his state
of detachment from the material world when his soul aspires to spiritual
things and renounces earthly desires.

By growing upwards, away from the soil, the tree becomes the recipient of
the rays of the sun, the most precious thing in this physical world. As a
result of the outpouring of energies released by the sun, the tree becomes
verdant and produces beautiful blossoms and fruit. Of course, the growth of
the tree is involuntary. But let us suppose that it had a choice and,
because it loves the earth and is dependent on the soil, inclined its
branches downwards and buried itself in the ground. Then it could no longer
receive the rays of the sun; in the end, it would rot away.

The same principles apply to a human being who has to live in this world and
work to earn a living, and who depends upon material things for his
existence. God, however, has destined in His Covenant with man that the soul
of man should become detached from the things of this world and aspire
towards spiritual realms. But unlike the tree, which has no choice, man has
free will. If he chooses to disregard the provisions of the Covenant and to
fall in love with the world, its vanities and its material attractions, then
he becomes a bondslave of earthly things and his soul, deprived of the power
of faith, becomes impoverished.

On the other hand, when the individual aspires to spiritual things, turns to
the Manifestation of God, and does not direct all his affections towards
this mortal world, then his soul becomes illumined with the rays of the Sun
of Truth and will fulfil the purpose for which it has been created. The
above example showing the similarity between tree and man demonstrates that
the physical and the spiritual worlds of God are related to each other by
similar laws. It is therefore possible to discover some spiritual principles
by examining physical laws. Similarly, the basic laws and teachings of a
religion can be seen as the laws of nature in a higher realm. The difference
is that as the laws of a lower kingdom are applied to a higher kingdom,
certain features are added which are absent in the lower one. This fact was
noted in the above example; the added feature is that man exercises his free
will to decide his own destiny, while the tree grows involuntarily, the
element of choice being absent in the vegetable kingdom. (Adib Taherzadeh,
The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)

Our faith tradition is insistent upon independent investigation of truth,
that each of us are responsible to find our own path to God using the
guidance we constantly receive from reading the Writings and our efforts on
behalf of our fellow humanity.

Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.

--Kent
Post by m***@gmail.com
Hello, everyone.
I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.
I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)
Thanks,
Matthew Lowe
m***@gmail.com
2008-03-11 14:07:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Johnson
Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.
--Kent
Thanks, Kent.

This is somewhat off topic, but it was brought up in one of the
sections you quoted: how much do you think the Baha'i Faith hinges on
the assumption that human beings have free will?

Matthew
Kent Johnson
2008-03-12 00:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matthew,

My faith tradition says that the fundamental purpose God has for us to exist
on this earth is to develop virtues and learn to resist the irrational
callings of desire. We are told that our purpose is to know and love God
and detach ourselves from all else. God is the source of all virtue, and
detachment from worldly desire is a first step toward Him.

A paragraph about virtue:
Briefly; the Blessed Perfection bore all these ordeals and calamities in
order that our hearts might become enkindled and radiant, our spirits be
glorified, our faults become virtues, our ignorance transformed into
knowledge; in order that we might attain the real fruits of humanity and
acquire heavenly graces; although pilgrims upon earth we should travel the
road of the heavenly kingdom; although needy and poor we might receive the
treasures of life eternal. For this has He borne these difficulties and
sorrows. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 224)

More than a paragraph about desire:
The soil is inferior to the tree; the tree is nevertheless dependent upon it
for its existence. In spite of this dependence, the tree grows in the
opposite direction, away from the soil. As if disliking the soil, it raises
up its branches high towards the sky. This is similar to man and his state
of detachment from the material world when his soul aspires to spiritual
things and renounces earthly desires.

By growing upwards, away from the soil, the tree becomes the recipient of
the rays of the sun, the most precious thing in this physical world. As a
result of the outpouring of energies released by the sun, the tree becomes
verdant and produces beautiful blossoms and fruit. Of course, the growth of
the tree is involuntary. But let us suppose that it had a choice and,
because it loves the earth and is dependent on the soil, inclined its
branches downwards and buried itself in the ground. Then it could no longer
receive the rays of the sun; in the end, it would rot away.

The same principles apply to a human being who has to live in this world and
work to earn a living, and who depends upon material things for his
existence. God, however, has destined in His Covenant with man that the soul
of man should become detached from the things of this world and aspire
towards spiritual realms. But unlike the tree, which has no choice, man has
free will. If he chooses to disregard the provisions of the Covenant and to
fall in love with the world, its vanities and its material attractions, then
he becomes a bondslave of earthly things and his soul, deprived of the power
of faith, becomes impoverished.

On the other hand, when the individual aspires to spiritual things, turns to
the Manifestation of God, and does not direct all his affections towards
this mortal world, then his soul becomes illumined with the rays of the Sun
of Truth and will fulfil the purpose for which it has been created. The
above example showing the similarity between tree and man demonstrates that
the physical and the spiritual worlds of God are related to each other by
similar laws. It is therefore possible to discover some spiritual principles
by examining physical laws. Similarly, the basic laws and teachings of a
religion can be seen as the laws of nature in a higher realm. The difference
is that as the laws of a lower kingdom are applied to a higher kingdom,
certain features are added which are absent in the lower one. This fact was
noted in the above example; the added feature is that man exercises his free
will to decide his own destiny, while the tree grows involuntarily, the
element of choice being absent in the vegetable kingdom. (Adib Taherzadeh,
The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)

Our faith tradition is insistent upon independent investigation of truth,
that each of us are responsible to find our own path to God using the
guidance we constantly receive from reading the Writings and our efforts on
behalf of our fellow humanity.

Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.

--Kent
Post by m***@gmail.com
Hello, everyone.
I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.
I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)
Thanks,
Matthew Lowe
Joubin Houshyar
2008-03-12 00:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Salaam Matthew,

1:
Desire, timely and true, is a Virtue. & Virtue Is Desiring the
Timely_and_True.

2:
Desiring 'that_which_Is_not' is a deadly sin; know it as lust (which
is not True Desire).

3:
There IS only ONE; of that you should be certain. Knowing this, then,
Desire Union with The ONE with all your heart, all your might and all
your Being.

/& Salaam
Post by m***@gmail.com
Hello, everyone.
I am interested in the ideas of virtue and desire, and am curious to
hear what you think your faith tradition has to say about these ideas.
I'm trying to get the bird's-eye view, so it would be helpful to me if
you could summarize, limiting yourself to three paragraphs: a
paragraph about virtue, a paragraph about desire, and perhaps another
paragraph on how these ideas fit into the larger framework of your
tradition. I know you won't be able to say everything in three
paragraphs, but if you mention something in your summary that I find
intriguing, I promise I'll ask for details. =)
Thanks,
Matthew Lowe
Matthew Johnson
2008-03-12 00:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Johnson
Hi Matthew,
Matthew, Johnson, meet Matthew Johnson;)
Post by Kent Johnson
My faith tradition
Well, that's all very nice, but what _is_ your "faith tradition"? For all we
know, it could be something not related at all to Christianity. But in that
case, we have the right to wonder: what _are_ you doing in SRC?
Post by Kent Johnson
says that the fundamental purpose God has for us to exist
on this earth is to develop virtues and learn to resist the irrational
callings of desire.
Epictetus or Chryssipus (both Stoics) could have said the same.
Post by Kent Johnson
We are told that our purpose is to know and love God
and detach ourselves from all else.
But if we are to "detach ourselves from all else", why _were_ all these other
things created, and why do we have to "run the obstacle course"?
Post by Kent Johnson
God is the source of all virtue, and
detachment from worldly desire is a first step toward Him.
Briefly; the Blessed Perfection
And who is this? This would be odd language for referring to Christ, yet if you
intend it for anyone else, we would have to deny that title to him.
Post by Kent Johnson
bore all these ordeals and calamities in
order that our hearts might become enkindled and radiant, our spirits be
glorified, our faults become virtues,
"Faults become virtues"? Now why should we believe this is even possible for all
faults? This is one of the points where your ideas sound dangerously different
from Christianity.
Post by Kent Johnson
our ignorance transformed into
knowledge;
Speaking of "transforming into knowledge", try transforming your own ignorance
of Christ into knowledge of Him.
Post by Kent Johnson
in order that we might attain the real fruits of humanity and
acquire heavenly graces;
And those "real fruits" are? How could they be anything _other_ than union with
Christ?
Post by Kent Johnson
although pilgrims upon earth we should travel the
road of the heavenly kingdom; although needy and poor we might receive the
treasures of life eternal. For this has He borne these difficulties and
sorrows. (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 224)
Aha! Is _this_ who you titled "Blessed Perfection"?
Post by Kent Johnson
The soil is inferior to the tree; the tree is nevertheless dependent upon it
for its existence. In spite of this dependence, the tree grows in the
opposite direction, away from the soil. As if disliking the soil, it raises
up its branches high towards the sky. This is similar to man and his state
of detachment from the material world when his soul aspires to spiritual
things and renounces earthly desires.
But this 'paragraph about desire' also needs quite a bit of transformation
before we could call it 'knowledge';) After all, you have completely failed to
observe the _necessary_ distinction between bare desire, which is common to all
the animals, and rational willing, which is common to Man and the angels. But
without this distinction, how can you even _begin_ to talk about how God draws
all things to Himself through Man's natural will for union with God?
Post by Kent Johnson
By growing upwards, away from the soil, the tree becomes the recipient of
the rays of the sun, the most precious thing in this physical world. As a
result of the outpouring of energies released by the sun, the tree becomes
verdant and produces beautiful blossoms and fruit. Of course, the growth of
the tree is involuntary. But let us suppose that it had a choice and,
because it loves the earth and is dependent on the soil, inclined its
branches downwards and buried itself in the ground. Then it could no longer
receive the rays of the sun; in the end, it would rot away.
The same principles apply to a human being who has to live in this world and
work to earn a living, and who depends upon material things for his
existence.
Again, the belief that the _same_ principle applies is not Christian. But this
time, it is not Stoic either. It is Gnostic. And yet it is tantalizingly close.
Close, but not close enough.
Post by Kent Johnson
God, however, has destined in His Covenant with man that the soul
of man should become detached from the things of this world and aspire
towards spiritual realms. But unlike the tree, which has no choice, man has
free will.
It is unfortunate that there is a large strand of Western Christianity which
insists on denying the existence of free will.
Post by Kent Johnson
If he chooses to disregard the provisions of the Covenant and to
fall in love with the world, its vanities and its material attractions, then
he becomes a bondslave of earthly things and his soul, deprived of the power
of faith, becomes impoverished.
And if he chooses to deny Christ, or even to merely distance himself from Him,
then such slavery is inevitable, even if he fools himself into thinking he has
detached himself from the world.

[snip]
Post by Kent Johnson
Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.
The obvious question is, what are you doing in a newsgroup that is about
Christianity?

[snip]
--
------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Kent Johnson
2008-03-12 00:40:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Kent Johnson
Thanks for reading, and looking forward to questions.
--Kent
Thanks, Kent.
This is somewhat off topic, but it was brought up in one of the
sections you quoted: how much do you think the Baha'i Faith hinges on
the assumption that human beings have free will?
Matthew
Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity,
tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident
and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of
man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such
as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these
are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for
he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he
is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can
be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the
fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be
a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or
cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will
of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 247)


Hi Matthew. Above was the short answer. An even shorter answer to your
question is "not very much".

Let me know if I can answer a slightly more specific question.

--Kent

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