Sumerian culture,faith,history.

[B.G. Kent]

Does anyone else here know of the Genesis story being taken from an
earlier Sumerian story? I'm always amazed at how the Sumerian contribution
to the bible and history is glossed over. Then again Historians in the old
days (many) were forced to take the dogma as truth and leave behind
facts by the church's pressure. Sad really.

"Among some 20,000 preserved clay tablets,excavated from the world's most
famous ancient library at Nineveh (old Ninua) in Mesopotamian Assyria, are
twelve which tell of the story of the Flood. According to these texts,the
hero of the epic, who was commanded by the gods to 'build a ship', was
King Uta-napishtim of Shuruppak,who reigned around 4000 BC. HIs story even
states that when the waters had abated,'All mankind had turned to clay;
the ground was flat like a roof.'
Before looking at the Mesopotamian flood saga in greater detail, we
should first consider how it was that the original Hebrew compilers of
Genesis,nearly 3500 years after the Flood,grafted Uta-napishtim's story
into the lifetime of the much later Noah. Once we know the truth of this,
we shall be in a far better position to identify the historical Adam."

--Genesis of the Grail Kings by Laurence Gardner.

----

[Sure. This is referred to in any commentary or college Bible course.
However you might want to read both versions. While there are clear
similarities, there are also great differences. It's almost as if
the Bible's version was created as an answer: no, creation didn't come
as a result of lots of gods playing around. It was the creation of the
One God, who created us in his image. --clh]

[B.G. Kent]

Post by B.G. Kent
[Sure. This is referred to in any commentary or college Bible course.
However you might want to read both versions. While there are clear
similarities, there are also great differences. It's almost as if
the Bible's version was created as an answer: no, creation didn't come
as a result of lots of gods playing around. It was the creation of the
One God, who created us in his image. --clh]

B - I have read both versions. Men and women he created them in our
image...this is another version of that saying. You have your opinion and
I have mine...thanks

Bren
ps. who said anything about gods playing around???

---

[I just took a look again at the creation story from the Enuma Elish.
Claims of dependence such as
http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geba.htm work if you just look
at their summary. But if you actually look at the texts, it's hard to
see much similiarity. In the Enuma Elish the main content is creation
of the gods, their battles and other relations between them. The world
manages to get created in the process. But to make the accounts look
similar requires one to very carefully choose a few isolated features
of the account, and to describe them in very abstract terms. If you
want to check it out for yourself, here's an online translation:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm

I should note that my original comment somewhat carelessly read
"Genesis story" as referring to creation. In fact the posting referred
primarily to the flood. There are closer similarities between the OT
flood story and Gilgamesh than to the creation story. However even
there the religious context is different. In Gilgamesh it appears that
the original intent was to kill all of mankind, but the gods disagreed
whether this was appropriate. I think there's still a sense that the
story is more a consequence of goings on among the gods, rather than
in the OT where it is a judgement on mankind. (However in Gilgamesh,
Ea seems to suggest that they should be dealing with mankind in a
manner closer to the OT.)

Again, I do not disagree that there may be some dependence. However
the OT version of the story has been redone in such a way that while
there are some similarities in the events, the religious context and
the picture one gets of God vs. the gods are very different.

--clh]

[B.G. Kent]

Post by B.G. Kent
[I just took a look again at the creation story from the Enuma Elish.
Claims of dependence such as
http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geba.htm work if you just look
at their summary. But if you actually look at the texts, it's hard to
see much similiarity. In the Enuma Elish the main content is creation
I should note that my original comment somewhat carelessly read
"Genesis story" as referring to creation. In fact the posting referred
primarily to the flood. There are closer similarities between the OT
flood story and Gilgamesh than to the creation story. However even

...

Post by B.G. Kent
Again, I do not disagree that there may be some dependence. However
the OT version of the story has been redone in such a way that while
there are some similarities in the events, the religious context and
the picture one gets of God vs. the gods are very different.

B - Oh no doubt that there are different outcomes. The point I was making
is that the Old Testament story has been taken from an earlier text via
the Sumerians and for the longest time this has been swept under the rug.
What was called history is now called by some mythology....as if one is
any more believeable than the other. It is as if the whole of Sumerian
culture and wisdom was disregarded for fear of not being able to control
the masses. I just believe in studying ALL..not just some approved texts
as well as gaining insight from that still small voice within. I am not
saying one is more correct but that one followed the other.


Bren

[jani]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by B.G. Kent
[I just took a look again at the creation story from the Enuma Elish.
Claims of dependence such as
http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geba.htm work if you just look
at their summary. But if you actually look at the texts, it's hard to
see much similiarity. In the Enuma Elish the main content is creation
I should note that my original comment somewhat carelessly read
"Genesis story" as referring to creation. In fact the posting referred
primarily to the flood. There are closer similarities between the OT
flood story and Gilgamesh than to the creation story. However even

...

Post by B.G. Kent
Again, I do not disagree that there may be some dependence. However
the OT version of the story has been redone in such a way that while
there are some similarities in the events, the religious context and
the picture one gets of God vs. the gods are very different.

B - Oh no doubt that there are different outcomes. The point I was making
is that the Old Testament story has been taken from an earlier text via
the Sumerians and for the longest time this has been swept under the rug.

I'm not sure what you mean by "swept under the rug" and "glossed over" (in
your earlier post). As clh mentioned, the relationship between the Sumerian
and Genesis narratives has been the subject of considerable discussion,
and - as I understand it - the Genesis version is considered to be more a
rebuttal of the Sumerian than a "steal" from it.

Post by B.G. Kent
What was called history is now called by some mythology....as if one is
any more believeable than the other. It is as if the whole of Sumerian
culture and wisdom was disregarded for fear of not being able to control
the masses.

I'm not sure who you're accusing of disregarding "the whole of Sumerian
culture and wisdom", here? The writers of the Jewish scriptures? The
Christian church, at some point in its history?


I just believe in studying ALL..not just some approved texts

Post by B.G. Kent
as well as gaining insight from that still small voice within. I am not
saying one is more correct but that one followed the other.

Well, yes, but how would you interpret a primary source, such as the Enuma
Elish, without also using secondary sources? Even a modern translation, in
isolation, gives no information about how the text might be interpreted in
its original cultural context.

Jani

[o***@my-deja.com]

Post by B.G. Kent
The point I was making
is that the Old Testament story has been taken from an earlier text via
the Sumerians and for the longest time this has been swept under the rug.

Only if by "swept under the rug" you mean "publicized widely as soon
as it was discovered in the 19th century and integrated into
mainstream scholarship, religious studies, and secondary-school
textbooks".

Post by B.G. Kent
It is as if the whole of Sumerian
culture and wisdom was disregarded for fear of not being able to control
the masses.

Do you have any clue about Mesopotamian history? Who actually
"disregarded" the Sumerian texts? (hint: it's not your favorite
bogiemen).

-Ben

[B.G. Kent]

Post by o***@my-deja.com

Post by B.G. Kent
The point I was making
is that the Old Testament story has been taken from an earlier text via
the Sumerians and for the longest time this has been swept under the rug.

Only if by "swept under the rug" you mean "publicized widely as soon
as it was discovered in the 19th century and integrated into
mainstream scholarship, religious studies, and secondary-school
textbooks".

B - You believe it was just discovered in the 19th century?

Post by o***@my-deja.com

Post by B.G. Kent
It is as if the whole of Sumerian
culture and wisdom was disregarded for fear of not being able to control
the masses.

Do you have any clue about Mesopotamian history? Who actually
"disregarded" the Sumerian texts? (hint: it's not your favorite
bogiemen).

B - I have no favourite "bogiemen". I'm not fond of fundamentalism and
literalism and control by fear...but I have no fave bogiemen actually.

Post by o***@my-deja.com
-Ben

Bren

---

[Columbia Encylopedia says for Gilgamesh (the flood story)

The epic was lost when the the library of the Assyrian king
Ashurbanipal was destroyed in 612 B.C. The library's remains were
excavated by British archaeologists in the mid-19th cent., the tablets
were discovered, and the epic's cuneiform text was translated by
British scholars.

Wikipedia says for Enuma Elish (creation)

The Enûma Eliš is the Babylonian or Mesopotamian creation epic. It was
first discovered by modern scholars (in fragmentary form) in the
ruined library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh (Mosul, Iraq), recovered by
Henry Layard in 1849 and published by George Smith in 1876.[1]

--clh]

[AJA]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - I have no favourite "bogiemen". I'm not fond of fundamentalism and
literalism and control by fear...but I have no fave bogiemen actually.

Not to open the fundamentalism can of squid, but there is no equating
fundamentalism and literalism with "control by fear" - a phrase you place
hard after the former two terms. That observed, I would say the the Noah
story, be it myth or fact, has _much_ to say to Christians beyond animals
led into a big boat two by two. You must know that. The Noah 'myth' speaks
of the rebirth of the entire cosmos by the agency of the one true personal
God worshipped by Christians- a foreshadow of the death and resurrection of
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Flip your coin and read, no _study_, the
Christian side.
You know it is said that Christianity can only be interpreted from the
inside.
I've been reading you here for a long time. I find it difficult to determine
what it is you seek to do.

Blessings,
Ann

[B.G. Kent]

Post by AJA

Post by B.G. Kent
B - I have no favourite "bogiemen". I'm not fond of fundamentalism and
literalism and control by fear...but I have no fave bogiemen actually.

Not to open the fundamentalism can of squid, but there is no equating
fundamentalism and literalism with "control by fear" - a phrase you place
hard after the former two terms.

B - to tell others that if they do not take the Bible literally..be born
again with Christ as one's saviour or die in Hell...that is fear mongering
at its finest.

Post by AJA
of the rebirth of the entire cosmos by the agency of the one true personal
God worshipped by Christians- a foreshadow of the death and resurrection of
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Flip your coin and read, no _study_, the
Christian side.

B - "one true personal God" please prove.

Post by AJA
You know it is said that Christianity can only be interpreted from the
inside.
I've been reading you here for a long time. I find it difficult to determine
what it is you seek to do.

B - I wonder who said that Christianity can only be interpreted from the
inside...
What I "seek to do"? what do you seek to do? I come to talk about
Christ...just not your idea of it obviously.

Post by AJA
Blessings,
Ann

Bren

[AJA]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - to tell others that if they do not take the Bible literally..be born
again with Christ as one's saviour or die in Hell...that is fear mongering
at its finest.

Really Bren, not all fundamentalists are saying this. I wish you could know
some so-called fundamentalists who are not of the fear mongering variety.
I may be one of them. :) I really have no idea how exactly how or when God
will choose to save you, or me for that matter.

Post by B.G. Kent
B - "one true personal God" please prove.

Your "please prove" is like mentioning Hitler in the room- aimed at ending
conversation.

Post by B.G. Kent
B - I wonder who said that Christianity can only be interpreted from the
inside...

Are you asking me a question?

Post by B.G. Kent
What I "seek to do"? what do you seek to do? I come to talk about
Christ...just not your idea of it obviously.

I feel your burn, Brenda. Are you certain you know what my idea of Christ
is?
Every time I meet Him I myself don't think I know Him.
Interesting that you come here to talk about Christ and post long articles
about how Sumerian culture, faith, etc. predates the Biblical worldview and
thus is somehow the arbiter of how one should understand parts of the
Christian Canon. That's what I can't figure out. Someone here said it
better than I but the Biblical understanding of God was a revelation _very_
much different and opposed to Sumerian understanding for instance, and that
understanding endures to this day.
Just a question: Do you know of anyone still a practicing believer of
ancient Sumerian faith? It might be interesting to know. If not, why not?

Blessings,
Ann

[B.G. Kent]

Post by AJA

Post by B.G. Kent
B - to tell others that if they do not take the Bible literally..be born
again with Christ as one's saviour or die in Hell...that is fear mongering
at its finest.

Really Bren, not all fundamentalists are saying this. I wish you could know
some so-called fundamentalists who are not of the fear mongering variety.
I may be one of them. :) I really have no idea how exactly how or when God
will choose to save you, or me for that matter.

Bren- Nice to know you don't fear monger. I've yet to see a fundamentalist
that doesn't..but time will tell. thankyou.

Post by AJA

Post by B.G. Kent
B - "one true personal God" please prove.

Your "please prove" is like mentioning Hitler in the room- aimed at ending
conversation.

Bren-well I suppose when people stop making objective statements which are
really subjective ones...I will also stop saying "please prove". I just
tend to get irritated at people who deem to speak for all on Christianity.

Post by AJA

Post by B.G. Kent
B - I wonder who said that Christianity can only be interpreted from the
inside...

Are you asking me a question?

Bren - you said that to me...so I just responded that "I wondered".

Post by AJA

Post by B.G. Kent
What I "seek to do"? what do you seek to do? I come to talk about
Christ...just not your idea of it obviously.

I feel your burn, Brenda. Are you certain you know what my idea of Christ
is?

B - No...but I am certain you said "the one true faith or religion or God"
so since that is not my idea of Christianity...we obviously differ. Do you
know what my idea of it is?

Post by AJA
Every time I meet Him I myself don't think I know Him.
Interesting that you come here to talk about Christ and post long articles
about how Sumerian culture, faith, etc. predates the Biblical worldview and
thus is somehow the arbiter of how one should understand parts of the
Christian Canon. That's what I can't figure out. Someone here said it
better than I but the Biblical understanding of God was a revelation _very_
much different and opposed to Sumerian understanding for instance, and that
understanding endures to this day.

B - Yet much of the same things in the Bible of today use old Sumerian
mythos and understandings...adam and eve and the snake etc. I feel it is
good to know the roots of whence things came.

Post by AJA
Just a question: Do you know of anyone still a practicing believer of
ancient Sumerian faith? It might be interesting to know. If not, why not?

B - Yes I do.

Post by AJA
Blessings,
Ann

Blessings back,
Bren

[c***@flapper.net]

Post by AJA

Post by B.G. Kent
B - to tell others that if they do not take the Bible literally..be born
again with Christ as one's saviour or die in Hell...that is fear mongering
at its finest.

Really Bren, not all fundamentalists are saying this. I wish you could know
some so-called fundamentalists who are not of the fear mongering variety.
I may be one of them. :) I really have no idea how exactly how or when God
will choose to save you, or me for that matter.

However, if the Bible IS the "Word of God," then it is not "fear
mongering," but is simply the TRUTH.

Post by AJA

Post by B.G. Kent
B - "one true personal God" please prove.

Your "please prove" is like mentioning Hitler in the room- aimed at ending
conversation.

Post by B.G. Kent
B - I wonder who said that Christianity can only be interpreted from the
inside...

Are you asking me a question?

Post by B.G. Kent
What I "seek to do"? what do you seek to do? I come to talk about
Christ...just not your idea of it obviously.

I come here to talk about Jesus too, but not just for the purpose of
talk. . .for the purpose of examining TRUTH. If the Bible is True,
then there are SPECIFIC things it says about Jesus, about sin, and
about eternal life.

Checker

[Matthew Johnson]

In article <SJ7%i.14785$***@trndny02>, AJA says...
[snip]

Post by AJA
Just a question: Do you know of anyone still a practicing believer of
ancient Sumerian faith?

Ah, but this question is not as straightforward as you seem to think. After all,
if you take a strictly accurate scholarly view of what the ancient Sumerian
religion was, then no, there is no one still practicing that religion (which
could not be called a 'faith' anyway).

But alas, there are a great many pretenders practicing various "New Age"
abominations, often _claiming_ to be practicing ancient practices. No doubt this
includes some aspects of Sumerian religion. But do they really have the right to
make this claim? No. Has that ever stopped them from making the claim? Again,
no.

[snip]

[B.G. Kent]

Post by c***@flapper.net
I come here to talk about Jesus too, but not just for the purpose of
talk. . .for the purpose of examining TRUTH. If the Bible is True,
then there are SPECIFIC things it says about Jesus, about sin, and
about eternal life.
Checker

B - yes..."IF" the Bible is true.
There are more parts to Christianity than the literalness of the
Bible..there is comparative texts...comparative religions...the history of
the times that Jesus and Moses lived...the interpretations of texts..the
backing of Constantine...the power of the bishops..and the collation of
this bible as well as the Nag Hammadi..Gnostic beliefs etc. If I came to a
Christian group that had within the subject line "we are Bible
literalists"...then I would not join them out of respect. This newsgroup
is about Christianity period and not just one side to it but all that it
encompasses..contrary to what some people want it to be "straight
jacketed".
Christianity has so much diversity in it and each Christian who considers
himself Christian should be able to discuss...ask others not to speak for
all (as I do)...and treat each other kindly. Each Christian should be
confident that people can discuss Christianity..that Christ furnishes us
with a mind and soul and that we can all search (seek and ye shall find is
an active statement..not a passive one) and share.
I find too much of a gestapo mentality here in "some" folks that one has
to squeeze Christianity into a book..rather than the other way around.
I worship Christ..not a book.

This is my opinion.
Blessings
Bren

[Jani]

Post by Matthew Johnson
[snip]

Post by AJA
Just a question: Do you know of anyone still a practicing believer of
ancient Sumerian faith?

Ah, but this question is not as straightforward as you seem to think.
After all,
if you take a strictly accurate scholarly view of what the ancient
Sumerian
religion was, then no, there is no one still practicing that religion
(which
could not be called a 'faith' anyway).

It seems very unlikely that there would have been an "underground survival"
which had lasted that long, true.

Post by Matthew Johnson
But alas, there are a great many pretenders practicing various "New Age"
abominations, often _claiming_ to be practicing ancient practices. No
doubt this
includes some aspects of Sumerian religion. But do they really have the
right to
make this claim? No. Has that ever stopped them from making the claim?
Again,
no.

There's a difference between serious reconstructionists and newagers,
though. The former acknowledge that original practices can never be
replicated, partly because of lost information and partly because of
cultural differences, and they place a strong emphasis on verifiable
historical sources and a critical analysis of folklore. The latter skim off
whatever is cuddly and appealing out of a variety of belief systems, and
ignore the rest.

Jani

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by B.G. Kent
Does anyone else here know of the Genesis story being taken from an
earlier Sumerian story?

Who told you this was "glossed over"? It is standard fare in 'liberal'
seminaries.

[snip]

[George]

Post by B.G. Kent
Does anyone else here know of the Genesis story being taken from an
earlier Sumerian story? I'm always amazed at how the Sumerian
contribution

...

Post by B.G. Kent
"Among some 20,000 preserved clay tablets,excavated from the world's most
famous ancient library at Nineveh (old Ninua) in Mesopotamian Assyria, are
twelve which tell of the story of the Flood. According to these texts,the

...

The Tigris/Euprhates River valleys have long been recognized geologically
as very broad/flat valleys susceptible to periodic massive flooding. That
flood myths would originate from there should surprise no one.

George

[Steve Hayes]

Post by B.G. Kent
Does anyone else here know of the Genesis story being taken from an
earlier Sumerian story? I'm always amazed at how the Sumerian contribution
to the bible and history is glossed over. Then again Historians in the old
days (many) were forced to take the dogma as truth and leave behind
facts by the church's pressure. Sad really.

He built an ark like Noah
Bigger far but slower
So I really do not go a
bundle on Enkidu

(from "Enkidu I love you", sung to the 1960s pop tune "Peek-a-boo I love you")

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by B.G. Kent
Does anyone else here know of the Genesis story being taken from an
earlier Sumerian story? I'm always amazed at how the Sumerian contribution
to the bible and history is glossed over. Then again Historians in the old
days (many) were forced to take the dogma as truth and leave behind
facts by the church's pressure. Sad really.

He built an ark like Noah
Bigger far but slower
So I really do not go a
bundle on Enkidu
(from "Enkidu I love you", sung to the 1960s pop tune "Peek-a-boo I love you")

B - and he did it first.

;)

Bren