Some serious holes in Atheism

[b***@juno.com]

Okay, I will now proceed to point out some serious holes in atheism.

According to atheism:

1. Originally, there was nothing but atom-based matter. (And Einstein
showed that energy is just another form of matter. E=mc2.) Nothing
existed at the origin of the universe except random atomic motion. All
the atoms throughout the entire universe were dead and non-living.

2. Then magically, on Planet Earth, some of these dead chemicals sprang
to life without any help from any God. Some dead chemicals on earth
sloshed around, and magically constructed the first DNA strand, which
consists of over 3 billion base-pairs. Not only that, but these same
dead chemicals also magically constructed all the cellular structures
needed to READ those 3 billion base-pairs. According to atheists, this
entire process was completely random and unguided.

3. Although number 2 is utterly absurd, let us pause. Atheists MUST
believe that life came from non-life. They simply cannot get around it.
If they say life arrived on earth from outer space, I simply ask, "then
what is the origin of THAT extra-terrestrial life?" It is inescapable.
Atheists MUST believe that dead matter sprang to life. Life from
non-life is a fundamental belief of atheism.

4. And guess what? If Atheists believe that life came from non-life,
they can raise no objection to Christ rising from the dead. After all,
when Christ rose from the dead, it was just life coming from non-life,
which Atheism MUST believe no matter what.

5. Let us accept the absurity that dead matter magically sprang to life
without God. Well, after a few billlion years of evolution, we arrive
at another absurdity. According to atheism, the very same dead atoms
that magically sprang to life, later on magically BECAME AWARE OF THEIR
OWN EXISTENCE! These very same dead atoms, which atheists tell us are
all that exists anywhere in the universe, suddenly became self-aware
with the appearance of the first human brain. Ha ha! Dead atoms
suddenly realized, after being arranged in a complicated enough
structure (a human brain) that they exist!

6. Remember, accroding to hard-core atheism, a human being is just a
complicated arrangement of dead atoms. Nothing more. Atoms are ALL THAT
EXISTS. There is no spiritual "life force" or "mind/soul/spirit." That
is why what I am saying is a correct way to describe the utter
laughable absuridy of hard core materialistic atheism.

7. But the fun doesn't stop there. Oh no. According to extreme
hard-core atheism, absolutely everything in the entire universe is
nothing but atoms, and everything that ever happens is caused
ultimately by random atomic motion. Including absolutely everything
that happens in a human brain. Thus, free will does not actually exist.
Every thought in your brain and mine is caused by some random atomic
motion. Thus, the very fact that I am typing this, and you are reading
this, is being caused by dead atoms in our brains, which happen to be
vibrating a certain way.

8. Had a good laugh? I sure have. And now I bow down before my Infinite
Creator, who loves me and you with an everlasting love. May God bless
you. And He will.

[c***@gmail.com]

Wow,

Are you really that threatened by athiests? Aren't "hard-core"
Christians equally laughable?

Trying pointing out serious holes in agnosticism instead.

Post by b***@juno.com
Okay, I will now proceed to point out some serious holes in atheism.
1. Originally, there was nothing but atom-based matter. (And Einstein

...

Post by b***@juno.com
2. Then magically, on Planet Earth, some of these dead chemicals sprang
to life without any help from any God. Some dead chemicals on earth

...

Post by b***@juno.com
3. Although number 2 is utterly absurd, let us pause. Atheists MUST
believe that life came from non-life. They simply cannot get around it.

...

Post by b***@juno.com
4. And guess what? If Atheists believe that life came from non-life,
they can raise no objection to Christ rising from the dead. After all,

...

[b***@juno.com]

It's not that I'm threatened by atheists. Rather, I feel sorry for
them, since they will spend a certain length of time in hell.

Even though the Bible clearly states in Romans 11:32 that God will have
mercy on all men, (which means God will also show mercy and kindness to
atheists)..... still, the Bible is equally clear that atheists will
spend an unknown length of time in hell. Hopefully not too long.

Also, although I don't have children now, if I ever do have children, I
want them to grow up in a world where God's love is widely known. One
way to make this more likely is to point out the absurdities in atheist
beliefs.

By the way, my original posting amounts to a demonstration that
"Infinite Disembodied Intelligence" (commonly called "God") is
required for the origin of life, the origin of human consciousness, and
the origin of human freewill.

Because of the demonstrative nature of the argument, this means that
the arguments apply to both atheism and agnosticism in precisely the
same way.

Post by c***@gmail.com
Wow,
Are you really that threatened by athiests? Aren't "hard-core"
Christians equally laughable?
Trying pointing out serious holes in agnosticism instead.

Post by b***@juno.com
Okay, I will now proceed to point out some serious holes in atheism.
1. Originally, there was nothing but atom-based matter. (And Einstein

...

Post by b***@juno.com
2. Then magically, on Planet Earth, some of these dead chemicals sprang
to life without any help from any God. Some dead chemicals on earth

...

Post by b***@juno.com
3. Although number 2 is utterly absurd, let us pause. Atheists MUST
believe that life came from non-life. They simply cannot get around it.

...

Post by b***@juno.com
4. And guess what? If Atheists believe that life came from non-life,
they can raise no objection to Christ rising from the dead. After all,

...

[B.G. Kent]

Post by c***@gmail.com
Wow,
Are you really that threatened by athiests? Aren't "hard-core"
Christians equally laughable?
Trying pointing out serious holes in agnosticism instead.

B - any kind of bigotry for example "it is because I say it is" or "It is
because I believe it to be" is rather sadly laughable.

I.M.O
Bren

[Peritas]

Post by b***@juno.com
It's not that I'm threatened by atheists. Rather, I feel sorry for
them, since they will spend a certain length of time in hell.
Even though the Bible clearly states in Romans 11:32 that God will have
mercy on all men, (which means God will also show mercy and kindness to
atheists)..... still, the Bible is equally clear that atheists will
spend an unknown length of time in hell. Hopefully not too long.

I must admit that it's been awhile since I've read the Bible. In what
chapter:verse does the Bible state that atheists will spend some time
in Hell? Does it clearly distinguish between atheists and followers of
religions not based on the Bible? (I'm not doubting your claim
mentioned above, I just like to read these things for myself before
proceeding with further comment/discussion/debate.)

A related thought... I'd like to compare Biblical passages regarding
atheists from the Old Testament and the New Testament. If any such New
Testament passage exists, I wonder if it is more "forgiving"? Anyway,
do you have a couple passages to quote? Thanks in advance.

Here's a hypothetical for you. What if there exists someone whose
heart is filled with love. They do nothing but kind and caring acts.
However, this particular person doesn't believe in God. Does this
person fall into a "grey" area, or is he/she still an atheist? (For
the sake of argument, let's avoid the counter-point that says something
like "Such a person couldn't exist without believing in God.)


[ --snip-- ]

Post by b***@juno.com

Post by b***@juno.com
Okay, I will now proceed to point out some serious holes in atheism.
1. Originally, there was nothing but atom-based matter. (And Einstein

...

Technically, this is false. Matter can be broken down past the atom.
But I guess that doesn't help or hurt your point...

Post by b***@juno.com

Post by b***@juno.com
2. Then magically, on Planet Earth, some of these dead chemicals sprang
to life without any help from any God. Some dead chemicals on earth

...

By "dead", do you mean "unconscious"? By "help" do you mean helping
every step of the way, or everything fell into place b/c God setup the
initial conditions to do just that?

Post by b***@juno.com

Post by b***@juno.com
3. Although number 2 is utterly absurd, let us pause. Atheists MUST
believe that life came from non-life. They simply cannot get around it.

...

Well, living beings are made up billions upon billions of tiny
*inanimate* particles. In fact, everything you see if made up of the
same particles...just in different combinations. Amazing if you thing
about it. What's more amazing is that you and I can talk where the
chair I'm sitting on can't. But we're all made from the same building
blocks.

Post by b***@juno.com

Post by b***@juno.com
4. And guess what? If Atheists believe that life came from non-life,
they can raise no objection to Christ rising from the dead. After all,

...

I was raised Catholic. One question I had as a boy was why is it
important that Christ rose from the dead? Isn't everything he did up
until his death enough to inspire and give people blueprint for life?

Regards

[Matthew Johnson]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by c***@gmail.com
Wow,
Are you really that threatened by athiests? Aren't "hard-core"
Christians equally laughable?
Trying pointing out serious holes in agnosticism instead.

B - any kind of bigotry for example "it is because I say it is" or "It is
because I believe it to be" is rather sadly laughable.

You really don't get it, do you? Saying "it is because I say it is" is NOT
'bigotry. Neither is saying "it is because I believe it to be".

Learn the meanings of the words you use before you fling accusations at people.

[b***@juno.com]

Post by Peritas
I must admit that it's been awhile since I've read the Bible. In what
chapter:verse does the Bible state that atheists will spend some time
in Hell? Does it clearly distinguish between atheists and followers of
religions not based on the Bible? (I'm not doubting your claim
mentioned above, I just like to read these things for myself before
proceeding with further comment/discussion/debate.)

No, it doesn't clearly distinguish between atheists and non-christian
religions. Instead, it says in many places that you must believe in the
Son to have eternal life: Here is one example:

1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this
life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have
the Son of God does not have life."

Thus, both atheists and non-Christian religions would seem to NOT have
eternal life.

HOWEVER, there appears to be a loophole. If you read through Romans 5,
you realize that there is a serious possibility that God will be much
more merciful than we ever thought. Here is something I posted awhile
back, that you can read if you want to. It is a rather longish
discussion of Romans 5, in which I argue that God's mercy is the only
thing that matters at the end of all things:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.christian/browse_thread/thread/4fdf7756181d3c29/7f3bdb02d52406df?lnk=st&q=romans+5&rnum=11#7f3bdb02d52406df

Post by Peritas
A related thought... I'd like to compare Biblical passages regarding
atheists from the Old Testament and the New Testament. If any such New
Testament passage exists, I wonder if it is more "forgiving"? Anyway,
do you have a couple passages to quote? Thanks in advance.

See above. I am fairly convinced because of both Romans chapter 5, and
Romans chapter 11, that God plans to eventually save everyone.

Now, this does not sit well with certain people. They say things like,
"why not just party all your life, and never worry about God, since we
will all get saved in the end?"

To which I reply, TEMPORARY HELL is still very real. Some believe that
non-Chrisitans spend as much as 50,000 years there! No life of partying
is worth spending even ONE year in hell.... let alone fifty thousand!!!

The main point, however, is that God's love really does triumph in the
end.

Post by Peritas
Here's a hypothetical for you. What if there exists someone whose
heart is filled with love. They do nothing but kind and caring acts.
However, this particular person doesn't believe in God. Does this
person fall into a "grey" area, or is he/she still an atheist? (For
the sake of argument, let's avoid the counter-point that says something
like "Such a person couldn't exist without believing in God.)

Somebody has brought this type of idea up in the past. Let us take
Ghandi for example, I think Ghandi is a clear example of a
non-Christian who seems like they maybe deserved to go to heaven.

Well, if you read through Romans 5, it says "sin is not taken into
account when there is no law." Now, I personally take this to literally
mean, "sin is LITERALLY not taken into account when there is no law."

Which would mean that God holds people accountable only for what they
KNOW. I will now paraphrase something I heard from Ghandi:

"Even if Christianity is false, still the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew
5) is true for me."

In other words, the Sermon that Jesus preached on the Mountain, was
"true" for Ghandi, EVEN THOUGH GHANDI REFUSED TO OFFICIALLY BECOME A
CHRISTIAN.

Becuase of this, I believe that Ghandi very likely has already entered
heaven. I doubt he spent a lengthy time in hell, and perhaps he spend
NO TIME in hell at all.

In my opinion, the only reason why Ghandi refused to become a
Christian, was because Christianity was associated with the British
oppressors, and Ghandi was trying to maintain solidarity with the
oppressed Hindus of India.

We have to remember that not only is God just, (which is shocking
enough) but God goes way beyond justice, he shatters justice in order
to pour out his mercy and love into our hearts.

And what is more, Romans 11:32 tells us that this mercy will be given
to ALL MEN. So we certainly have good reason to hope, and to love Him.

Post by Peritas
By "dead", do you mean "unconscious"? By "help" do you mean helping
every step of the way, or everything fell into place b/c God setup the
initial conditions to do just that?

By "dead" I mean both non-living and non-conscious. Atheism has to
believe that non-living, non-conscious atoms became both living and
self-conscious WITHOUT any help from God. And according to them, this
whole process was totally random and non-guided.

Atheists attribute all the scientific order of the universe, to forces
that do not know what they are doing or even that they exist.

Theists attribute all the scientific order of the universe, to a Force
that knows exactly what He is doing, and is very much aware that He
exists.

Post by Peritas
Well, living beings are made up billions upon billions of tiny
*inanimate* particles. In fact, everything you see if made up of the
same particles...just in different combinations. Amazing if you thing
about it. What's more amazing is that you and I can talk where the
chair I'm sitting on can't. But we're all made from the same building
blocks.

Aha. I agree that the PHYSICAL PART of both humans and the chair are
made from the same building blocks. However, my claim is that IN
ADDITION to mere atoms, humans also have a few extra things....... some
sort of "life force" that enables them to be alive, and a "mind" that
enables them to be self-aware, and a "spirit" that enables them to have
freewill.

The whole point of my original post was to bring out sharply the
absurdity of claiming that humans are nothing but a complicated
arrangement of dead atoms. They are much, much more than that.
Therefore, atheism fails on its own terms.

Post by Peritas
I was raised Catholic. One question I had as a boy was why is it
important that Christ rose from the dead? Isn't everything he did up
until his death enough to inspire and give people blueprint for life?

He rose from the dead, in order to prove that we also will rise from
the dead. Although you are correct that Christ can "inspire" us and
give us a "blueprint" for life..... this was only the SECONDARY purpose
of Him coming to earth.

What was the main point, you ask? To triumph over sin (by dying on the
cross) and the triumph over death (by rising from the dead).

Sin and death are the two man problems that humans face. And Jesus
Christ conquered them both for all time and eternity.

[Peritas]

Post by b***@juno.com
No, it doesn't clearly distinguish between atheists and non-christian
religions. Instead, it says in many places that you must believe in
1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this
life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have
the Son of God does not have life."
Thus, both atheists and non-Christian religions would seem to NOT
have eternal life.

One issue that has always bothered me regarding various books in the
New Testament is that they were written down many years after Christ's
time on Earth. So, in the case of the verse you quoted above, why
should one believe it? Especially if it is at least partially
contradicted in other books as you pointed out regarding Romans 5 and
11. This seems to suggest that these books were written by different
people, in which case who does one believe?

{Sidebar: I mention this counter-point in reference to events, sequence
of events, and statements as the one you quoted above. The teachings
mentioned in the New Testament, however, are good ways to live one's
life even if one does not believe in Christ. I think most atheists
would agree.}


[--snip--]

Post by b***@juno.com
See above. I am fairly convinced because of both Romans chapter 5, and
Romans chapter 11, that God plans to eventually save everyone.
Now, this does not sit well with certain people. They say things like,
"why not just party all your life, and never worry about God, since we
will all get saved in the end?"
To which I reply, TEMPORARY HELL is still very real. Some believe that
non-Chrisitans spend as much as 50,000 years there! No life of partying
is worth spending even ONE year in hell.... let alone fifty thousand!!!

Out of curiosity, where does one come up with 50000 years? How do
those that quote this number even know if *time* exists in Hell?


[--snip--]

Post by b***@juno.com
Which would mean that God holds people accountable only for what they
"Even if Christianity is false, still the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew
5) is true for me."
In other words, the Sermon that Jesus preached on the Mountain, was
"true" for Ghandi, EVEN THOUGH GHANDI REFUSED TO OFFICIALLY BECOME A
CHRISTIAN.
Becuase of this, I believe that Ghandi very likely has already entered
heaven. I doubt he spent a lengthy time in hell, and perhaps he spend
NO TIME in hell at all.

Why should God "care" if Ghandi was Christian or not? Shouldn't
Ghandi's love for his people be enough? A cynical view of this
situation would be that God is "needy", which doesn't seem very
god-like.


[--snip--]

Post by b***@juno.com
Atheists attribute all the scientific order of the universe, to forces
that do not know what they are doing or even that they exist.
Theists attribute all the scientific order of the universe, to a Force
that knows exactly what He is doing, and is very much aware that He
exists.

As difficult as it is to wrap one's mind around it, why must there be
an explanation as to why all of the universe's particles formed in the
way they did to give us conscious humans as well as all of Nature's
unconscious wonders?


[--snip--]

Post by b***@juno.com
The whole point of my original post was to bring out sharply the
absurdity of claiming that humans are nothing but a complicated
arrangement of dead atoms. They are much, much more than that.
Therefore, atheism fails on its own terms.

I think the argument you pose needs further development before making
the claim that atheism fails. I'm not necessarily trying to be the
defender of atheism. It's just that your approach seems a little thin
as presented here. Perhaps you've posted something longer on this
topic previously?