Discussion:
phos hilaron recording
(too old to reply)
r***@yahoo.com
2008-02-18 02:40:05 UTC
Permalink
not sure if any of you would know, but if i were guessing, Matthew
might....

Where can I either find or buy a recording of the ancient Greek hymn,
phos hilaron?

there are versions easily available online in english, and i found one
in latin and one in either russian or ukrainian, but the greek version
doesn't seem to be available.

I don't know if this is done in Greek in the Orthodox churches or
not....

thanks for any info

dave
Matthew Johnson
2008-02-19 01:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
not sure if any of you would know, but if i were guessing, Matthew
might....
Your guess is pretty good. In fact, I have the text bookmakred, since it is at
http://www.analogion.net/glt/texts/Synek/Synek_Vespers.uni.htm.

But I don't have a recording bookmarked.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Where can I either find or buy a recording of the ancient Greek hymn,
phos hilaron?
Of course, I could find the Slavonic much more easily, at
ftp://ftp.predanie.ru/music/Danilov_monastyr/Dnes_Zemlja_Russkaja_predstoit_Bogu_Hor_Danilova_monastyrja/04_svete_tihij_grebenschikov.mp3.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
there are versions easily available online in english, and i found one
in latin and one in either russian or ukrainian, but the greek version
doesn't seem to be available.
Well, I found it, but you have to pay 16 eurocents for it; I haven t figured out
how to even do that at this site. It is at:
http://www.music-bazaar.com/main.php?page=album&id=1608&lfs=ru. It is #2.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
I don't know if this is done in Greek in the Orthodox churches or
not....
In Greek Churches, of course it is. Some Greek churches do some things in
English, but often it is only the Litanies that are in English; major hymns like
this are almost always in Greek.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
thanks for any info
You are welcome.
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)

----

[magnatune.com (in the classical section) has a number of recordings
of Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox music, but not Greek. --clh]
r***@yahoo.com
2008-02-20 01:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Your guess is pretty good. In fact, I have the text bookmakred, since it i=
s athttp://www.analogion.net/glt/texts/Synek/Synek_Vespers.uni.htm.
But I don't have a recording bookmarked.
...

thanks for all the help.
you know, i knew that some day me learning the cyrillic alphabet was
gonna come in handy..... ; D
i didn't notice you had said which number it was on the music-bazaar
site but i was able to identify it by reading it....

however in the meantime i had done some more research and found what i
was looking for. oddly enough at the exact site you had marked for the
text.
it dawned on me to try putting the name of the song using the greek
into google and the analogion site popped up, where they have an
entire page dedicated to mp3 recordings of the song.
http://www.analogion.com/PhosHilaron.html

one of the questions that i had about this, was that the chants seem
rather technical.... maybe they aren't, but the music seems beyond the
capabilities of the average worshipper. But I am thinking in terms of
my own worship experiences....
were songs like phos hilaron sung in unison by the early church? or
were they chanted by leaders and listened to by the congegration?
it just seems like the kind of renditions found on the analogion site
may have evolved beyond what an early church would have sung together.

I want to take another listen to some of the versions but i am having
a hard time finding the common ground between the english versions i
have heard and the greek.... i'm assuming there have been many
recompositions of the music set to the english translation. But do we
have english versions that are reasonably close to the more ancient
melody? [granting that we don't know for sure what the ancient melody
was...]

i have also downloaded 2 versions of the Oxyrynchus hymn in Greek.

I am extremely interested right now in these ancient hymns... i have
been studying to teach a class on the history of worship. But as a
musician, i don't want to merely talk about it, i wanted to bring
samples of the ancient songs for the students to listen to.
I am doing some research into this and am amazed at how much there is
out there that i was so oblivious to.

probably many of you are aware of these things already, but it is a
huge blessing for me to connect with the generations that were
faithful before in this way.

While I'm at it, I have discovered some of the recordings made based
on Suzanne Haik-Ventoura's work, where she alledges to have discovered
the key to the cantilation marks in the Masoretic text. and based on
this, believed she could reconstruct the ancient melodies in the
Tanakh.
They are interesting, even if i'm not wholly convinced they are
correct. If any one doesn't know what i'm talking about but is
interested in reading more or hearing the songs, here is the website:
http://www.rakkav.com/biblemusic/pages/mp3s.htm
Matthew Johnson
2008-02-21 03:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Your guess is pretty good. In fact, I have the text bookmakred, since it i=
s athttp://www.analogion.net/glt/texts/Synek/Synek_Vespers.uni.htm.
But I don't have a recording bookmarked.
...
thanks for all the help.
You are welcome!
Post by r***@yahoo.com
you know, i knew that some day me learning the cyrillic alphabet was
gonna come in handy..... ; D
i didn't notice you had said which number it was on the music-bazaar
site but i was able to identify it by reading it....
however in the meantime i had done some more research and found what i
was looking for. oddly enough at the exact site you had marked for the
text.
it dawned on me to try putting the name of the song using the greek
into google and the analogion site popped up, where they have an
entire page dedicated to mp3 recordings of the song.
http://www.analogion.com/PhosHilaron.html
Trying this didn't occur to me. I am glad you found it w/o paying 16 Eurocents;)
Post by r***@yahoo.com
one of the questions that i had about this, was that the chants seem
rather technical.... maybe they aren't, but the music seems beyond the
capabilities of the average worshipper.
True. They were and are sung by choirs, not by congregations. And the Greek
tonal system is somewhat different from the modern scale. They teach how to sing
this in seminaries.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
But I am thinking in terms of
my own worship experiences....
were songs like phos hilaron sung in unison by the early church?
It is a 6th century hymn. Of course, the original 6th century melody and harmony
has not survived.

or
Post by r***@yahoo.com
were they chanted by leaders and listened to by the congegration?
That is what is done today, too.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
it just seems like the kind of renditions found on the analogion site
may have evolved beyond what an early church would have sung together.
By the 4th century, we already have references in St. Cyril of Jerusalem's
Catechetical lectures to the way these were sung: by soloists.

BTW: why _do_ you assume that the early church would have had the whole
congregation singing these? They didn't have Xerox machines to hand out sheet
music.
Post by r***@yahoo.com
I want to take another listen to some of the versions but i am having
a hard time finding the common ground between the english versions i
have heard and the greek.... i'm assuming there have been many
recompositions of the music set to the english translation. But do we
have english versions that are reasonably close to the more ancient
melody? [granting that we don't know for sure what the ancient melody
was...]
We probably do, but you might not find that on the Net. Music publishers want to
get some money for these new versions;)
Post by r***@yahoo.com
i have also downloaded 2 versions of the Oxyrynchus hymn in Greek.
I am extremely interested right now in these ancient hymns... i have
been studying to teach a class on the history of worship. But as a
musician, i don't want to merely talk about it, i wanted to bring
samples of the ancient songs for the students to listen to.
I am doing some research into this and am amazed at how much there is
out there that i was so oblivious to.
There is also a lot we still do not know about how these were originally sung.
And a lot of conjecture passed off as solid conclusions:(

[snip]
--
-----------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
r***@yahoo.com
2008-02-22 01:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by r***@yahoo.com
one of the questions that i had about this, was that the chants seem
rather technical.... maybe they aren't, but the music seems beyond the
capabilities of the average worshipper.
True. They were and are sung by choirs, not by congregations. And the Greek
tonal system is somewhat different from the modern scale. They teach how to sing
this in seminaries.
I was doing a little research into this subject the other day, having
found some sights documenting the 8 greek modes.
But honestly, I didn't get it just reading the info.
I am a musician, but not trained... I simply play by ear. I learned some
theory after I started playing, but I think that to understand the
concept of the modes, I would need someone to play examples, then I'd
likely grasp it. But just reading, nah.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by r***@yahoo.com
But I am thinking in terms of
my own worship experiences....
were songs like phos hilaron sung in unison by the early church?
It is a 6th century hymn. Of course, the original 6th century melody and harmony
has not survived.
From my reading, I believe the hymn must be older than that.
The orthodoxwiki article on it states that Basil the Great [330-379]
mentions the singing of the phos hilaron as a cherished tradition of
the church, already being considered old in his day.
Post by Matthew Johnson
By the 4th century, we already have references in St. Cyril of Jerusalem's
Catechetical lectures to the way these were sung: by soloists.
BTW: why _do_ you assume that the early church would have had the whole
congregation singing these? They didn't have Xerox machines to hand out sheet
music.
Well, actually I was asking about how it was done, hopefully not
making assumptions.
My own background in evangelical protestant churches is of
congregational singing, so I immediately think in those terms. But
listening to the liturgies and chants, I noted that perhaps it was a
different scenario altogether.

However, there are a couple of things that make me think that the
early church did indeed sing congregationally:
Jesus and the disciples sang a hymn before they left the last supper
Paul and Silas sang hymns while they were in jail
Paul encourages singing in Col. 3 and Eph. 5
So the average believer was encouraged to sing and apparently knew
hymns themselves.

Origen in his letter against celsus mentions of the believers
"everyone prays and sings praises to God as he best can in his mother
tongue"

Pauls writing in Romans 15:6 was "so that with one heart and mouth you
may glorify..." seems to have been taken by Ignatius as singing all in
unison: "in unison you may sing with one voice".

One other thing as well... the oxyrhynchus hymn was unique in that it
was found with the musical notation intact, so the ancient melody
could be reconstructed. Listening to it, one understands it as an
actual hymn, not a chant. It has a recognizable melody and it is easy
to imagine early Christians singing it congregationally. It is not
adorned with technically difficult musical passages.

So given that the Lord and the apostles knew and sang hymns together,
songs they had most likely heard and sang in their worship services,
biblical injunctions to sing, and the witness of the fathers to
widespread singing of praises, it seems reasonable to accept that
there was congregational singing.

However I also found Eusebius had said in his Ecclesiastical History
18.1 that the ancient practice was "while one man sings in regular
rhythm the others listen silently and join in the refrains of the
hymn".

Most likely then chanting, responsorial singing and congregational
praise were all present in the church.
Post by Matthew Johnson
There is also a lot we still do not know about how these were originally sung.
And a lot of conjecture passed off as solid conclusions:(
True. It is unfortunate, but other than the cantillation marks in the
masoretic text and the oxyryhnchus hymn, we have no clue as to what
the melodies might have been.
And if HaikVentouras theory turns out to be true, even then we can
only get the melody of the Hebrew psalms, we can't know what kind of
musical accompaniment or score existed in the ancient Hebrew worship.
If we take the Bible for what it says, The Lord, through the Holy
Spirit to David, ordained 4000 for playing musical instruments [1
Chronicles 23:5] which is a staggering number of musicians in an
orchestra in any age.
To what degree there was instrumentation, it's impossible to know now,
but there was apparently an awe inspiring spectacle of worship.

But again thanks for your input.
One of the things I am more and more interested and to be honest I
have to admire, is the Orthodox connection to the past... I really
appreciate the recognition that our faith is built on generations of
faithful adherence to the bible and the faithful work of God in the
saints before us.

Take care,

dave

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