Discussion:
The Incarnation of Satan Part III - An influx of Sodomites
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Remnant
2006-11-27 01:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Like a Lamb

"If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall
go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the
sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld
another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb,
and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast
before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship
the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13:9-12
Here we see the emergence of false religion turning the affections of the
people towards the dragon by engendering them to worship the first beast.
This is why Jesus said that they would deliver you up to the councils and
scourge you in their synagogues (Matthew 10:17). Even now we have reached a
time where men will not endure sound doctrine - not in the world, in the
churches!

I recently went to Elizabeth Baptist Church in Atlanta to hear visiting
minister G. Craige Lewis teach a 2-day message about the evils of Hip Hop.
In what could only be described as the church's opening act to this message,
there was a "holy" hip hop artist who performed. The performer invited the
people to come down to the "dance floor" (the church altar) and led them
through every kind of worldly, lascivious, club-style dance while he rapped.
When it came time for Bro. Lewis to speak, he revealed the true spirit that
was in operation during that performance. He led a thorough examination of
the Scriptures and imparted knowledge about the religious, anti-christ
nature of hip hop. Calling for repentance and renewal, he encouraged the
people to bring their hip hop paraphernalia to the altar the next day when
he would conclude his message and offer prayers of cleansing for those
affected.
Unfortunately, that day would not come as the church pastor refused to let
Min. Lewis return. Although he could not dispute the Scriptural evidence
provided, the pastor stated that the message had caused too much confusion.
He told the people to take the cursed items back home and indicated that he
was keeping his hip hop wear as well. This is the type of environment God is
describing in Revelation. A religious system more conformed to the image of
the world than to the image of God; which purports to be a lamb
(representing Jesus), but speaks as a dragon. Just as in the days of
Nebuchadnezzar, when the music plays the people are expected to fall down in
worship of the anti-christ image. Those who do not will be seen as the
problem and will be reported by the false religious system just as the
Chaldeans accused the Jews in that day. What awaits those who refuse to bow?
A fiery furnace. Yet, think it not strange concerning this fiery trial which
will try us. Christ is with us through it all.

In a recent Good Morning America interview touching on the best way to raise
Christian children, Diane Sawyer and Chris Cuomo pondered, "Talking about
dying for God, can this be good for kids? As somebody who has raised
Christians, you always think that the message to the kids is about love.
Jesus' message is love. Part of the message of course in Christianity is
tolerance." What were the two anchors questioning? The idea that children
should be raised with the understanding that we are in a spiritual war; that
they should be taught to pray and intercede about the sin in our country.
Are these concepts unbiblical? No, but people are so drunk with the wine of
the fornication of this harlot with the world, that a new Christianity
having nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ has been defined. In fact,
it is based on another Jesus altogether; one who accepts all beliefs and
ignores all sin. Haven't you noticed how many of today's professing
Christians are not even familiar with what is in Scripture? Further, to many
proclaiming Christians, what the Bible says simply does not matter.

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on
the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by
the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the
beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an
image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had
power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast
should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of
the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich
and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their
foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or
the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him
that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number
of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." Revelation
13:13-18

How does this beast deceive the people? By the lying signs and wonders it
performs. It caters to a churchworld in search of a circus act, a show, a
miracle, a blessing, a megafest, etc. Instead of being prepared in these end
times to represent Christ at the expense of themselves, they are still
seeking something for "me". Again, this religious beast causes those who
will not submit to this system to be killed. The number of the beast (666)
is a reference to the Adamic nature (fallen man). In Scripture, the number 6
often refers to the number of man since he was created on the 6th day. The
number of the beast then indicates a man whose entire being (his soul,
spirit, and body) is focused on and in love with himself. This is the nature
that is going to take over the human race and drive them to worship the
beast. These will be a colony of selfish people as illustrated by greed,
lust, fatherlessness, pleasure-seeking, pride, and a tendency for fantasy.
The perfect description for such individuals: they will be a colony of
sodomites.

A Colony of Sodomites

The one prerequisite for becoming a homosexual is to be in love with one's
self. Sodomites are so consumed by self-love, they can only relate to those
who are like themselves.

The very nature we are born with is the nature of a sodomite and it will
work itself out in you over the course of your life until you are fully
manifested as one. If you had sex outside of marriage, then you were on the
road to becoming a full-blown sodomite. People don't fornicate because they
are attracted to someone else; they fornicate because they are sodomites.
Illicit sex is evidence of that fallen nature vying for control, trying to
express itself, to feed itself, to grow. Left unchecked, your behavior
becomes more perverse as the sodomite nature takes hold.

One of the biggest misconceptions in the church today is that only
homosexuals are sodomites. Anyone who participates in oral or anal sex is a
sodomite by definition. You are catering to that same spirit, even if the
act is with a member of the opposite sex. Why? Because you are conditioning
your mind to adopt a genderless view of sex. For example, everyone has a
mouth. Once the mouth becomes your source of sexual satisfaction, the body
appended to the mouth becomes insignificant. This is the process of
reprobation outlined in Romans Chapter 1. We have a world of masquerading
churchfolk who are actually living as sodomites while the younger
generations openly revel in this lifestyle.

When the Bible says "Even the women.." in Romans 1:26, God is letting us
know how extreme such a lifestyle is for women. Yet, we have never seen so
many women turned over to lesbianism. Girls as young as 11 years old turning
to this perversion by the thousands. This is not just a random occurrence.
It is a plague. It is one of the evidences that this current age is wrapping
up, for even the women have succumbed to this reprobation. It is nothing
these days for young people to "hook-up" with each other in casual sexual
interactions, regardless of gender. Any type of distinction in genders is
being completely eroded away.

We are dealing with the incarnation of the king of the sodomites. Satan is
going to get into a sodomite so that he may be enthroned as king and
worshipped by sodomites. A sodomite is the physical manifestation of Satan's
character. Why do you think there are so many sissy preachers in the
churches? They rob the people of their money so they can ride around in
Bentleys, buy thousand dollar suits, etc. They are conditioning the people
to get used to an effeminate presentation of a man so that the congregations
will gladly receive their king when he comes. If we understand Satan's plan
to disempower the church through an influx of sodomites, then when we will
not be surprised when we hear of situations like that of Ted Haggard (former
pastor of New Life Church). Believe me, he is not the only one living this
double life. Yet, the people are unable to see the sodomite in the pulpit
because they are operating in the same spirit themselves. As God continues
to expose this spirit in the churches, it will become clear that the day of
preachers being in a pulpit - squalling, acting a fool while saying nothing,
espousing philosophies of how to be successful in life, and trying to head
up mega churches - is ending.

Our Only Hope

Our only answer is to get to the Lord. The last days will be driven by
individual witnesses reaching people through personal interaction out in the
streets just as in Acts. There will be evidence of the truth of your words
so that their faith will stand in the power of God. The end of the age is
approaching rapidly and things are changing daily. The Bible says that men's
hearts will fail them looking after all the things coming to the earth.

This is why I am fasting. This is why I am praying. No one can prepare you
for this, you have to spend the arduous time before the Lord to be
transformed. Shake off any drag that may be on you so that you can hear
directly from God and stand in these austere conditions. This is not a group
affair; you must be fortified to stand as an individual for you never know
when you may be culled off by yourself. What if God calls you to say
something on your job that gets you arrested? Will you be able to go through
this alone?

You must be prepared in the inner man to represent Christ no matter who else
does. The battle is in the inner man, gaining possession of our souls,
having our minds renewed, and being transformed to the image of Christ. This
is an internal, spiritual work. So what does the devil do? Try to get you to
focus on the physical. He has the church running around trying to unify. You
hear people saying all the time, "The church just needs to get together."
The church doesn't need to get together, YOU need to get together. YOU need
to be made whole. If you start merging these churches together you will wind
up with the worse mess in your life. There is no unity in people pretending
that the differences which separate them do not exist. God has never said in
His Word that the churches should get together. He says that the believers
will come together in the unity of the faith. Once individuals have been
transformed, the faith of God imparted within will unify His Body all by
itself. That is true fellowship, not some ecumenical movement trying to
unify religious organizations, which is the filthy plan of the anti-christ.
Being on one accord is not something we can "try" to do, but it is a natural
manifestation of the organic life of Christ being birthed in us.

A fallen angel has been working all these eons towards a climax of settling
down inside of a man. What will be the catalyst? A global church body which
has entered into a warfare of fasting, praying and seeking God. This will
empower Michael the archangel to take cast Satan down to the earth. The
Bible says Satan will come to earth as a madman knowing that his time is
short. He will become incarnate in a vessel and set-up a kingdom to make his
last stand against God by attempting to exterminate the Jews. One of the
first things Satan told Hitler to do was to exterminate the Jews. Satan
knows that the Jews must be engrafted in for the church to be complete. So
he believes that if he can eradicate the Jews, God's word becomes null and
void. This is why Jesus' last visitation is not to North America or
Antarctica; He returns to Israel to stop the extermination of the Jews.

What is it about this one little nation that engenders so much hatred from
the world? It is all about getting rid of the people who actually brought
forth Jesus Christ. This is the same venom that will be unleashed against
Christians who represent Christ in the end.

The anti-christ will have charisma, masterful intellect, and an ability to
resolve seemingly unsolvable world situations. The fourth reich will not be
like the others. It will be a global harlot church crowning a global leader
of the world. We are not talking about something that is far off down the
road; it is already happening. The only question you need to answer is,
"When my number comes up, what will my response be?" It is not enough to try
and make it through these times. You must know what spirit you are of. It is
time to wake-up and be prepared to deal with Satan incarnate.
B.G. Kent
2006-11-28 05:39:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
Like a Lamb
"If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall
go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the
sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld
another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb,
and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast
before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship
B - and Jesus supposedly talked about a man who built his home on poor
soil...

what was this man's name and where is the proof of his existance? Oh...it
was only a teaching story? well why then do you believe the rest of the
Bible is to be taken literally?
Gosh...it sure couldn't be perhaps one faith trying to put down another
faith like Mithracism which worshipped a bull-like God now could it....
Competing faiths....I can see it.

I.M.O
Bren
Remnant
2006-11-30 02:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Remnant
Like a Lamb
"If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall
go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the
sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld
another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb,
and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast
before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship
B - and Jesus supposedly talked about a man who built his home on poor
soil...
what was this man's name and where is the proof of his existance? Oh...it
was only a teaching story? well why then do you believe the rest of the
Bible is to be taken literally?
Gosh...it sure couldn't be perhaps one faith trying to put down another
faith like Mithracism which worshipped a bull-like God now could it....
Competing faiths....I can see it.
I.M.O
Bren
I am glad that these comments were posted in your opinion (IMO). That is a
good basis from which to answer your questions.

There is a difference between opinion and fact...there is even a difference
between fact and Truth.

There is also a difference between analogies and lies as well as a
difference between metaphors and stories.

Having a good understanding about how to differentiate these things would do
one well in basic conversation during the course of life, let alone in
understanding Scripture.

You are free, of course to reject God; but if your issue rely lies in a poor
understanding of grammar and sentence structure, there is help available.
B.G. Kent
2006-12-01 03:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
I am glad that these comments were posted in your opinion (IMO). That is a
good basis from which to answer your questions.
There is a difference between opinion and fact...there is even a difference
between fact and Truth.
You are free, of course to reject God; but if your issue rely lies in a poor
understanding of grammar and sentence structure, there is help available.
B - You also are free to reject God...why that was brought up I have no
idea. As far as grammar and sentence structure...this too..has nothing to
do with what I have asked. You have not answered my questions....and we
are all free to do that.

Blessings
Bren
Remnant
2006-12-05 02:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Remnant
I am glad that these comments were posted in your opinion (IMO). That is
a
good basis from which to answer your questions.
There is a difference between opinion and fact...there is even a
difference
between fact and Truth.
You are free, of course to reject God; but if your issue rely lies in a
poor
understanding of grammar and sentence structure, there is help available.
B - You also are free to reject God...
You are correct. God has given each man and the woman the free will to
choose Him or reject Him.
Post by B.G. Kent
why that was brought up I have no
idea.
It was brought up because if you reject Jesus, or rejct His words, then you
reject God.
Post by B.G. Kent
As far as grammar and sentence structure...this too..has nothing to
do with what I have asked.
Yes, it does. The implication that one cannot use analogies or parables at
any time without becoming suspect in everything you say either stems from a
root of sarcasm or ignorance about grammar.

Who is better able to tell you what was meant by something said? The person
who heard it? The person who heard about it? The person who read about it?
Or the person who said it?

Similarly, one cannot understand what Scripture means without the Holy
Spirit to reveal it. You might be able to see what it says, but you will
never know what was meant. The only thing left is darkness.

2Co:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth
life.
Post by B.G. Kent
You have not answered my questions....and we
are all free to do that.
Blessings
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-12-06 04:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
It was brought up because if you reject Jesus, or rejct His words, then you
reject God.
B - Hey Remmy..Please Prove this. Also how do you know if I reject Jesus
or
Jesus's
words?
Post by Remnant
Post by B.G. Kent
As far as grammar and sentence structure...this too..has nothing to
do with what I have asked.
Yes, it does. The implication that one cannot use analogies or parables at
any time without becoming suspect in everything you say either stems from a
root of sarcasm or ignorance about grammar.
B - ........s (dots) are my way to show timing and space between words. I
do it because I do. Some folks never use capitalization or grammar...that
does not at all bespeak their character.
I tend to pay more attention to the spirit of the letter than every jot
and tittle that gets written.
Post by Remnant
Similarly, one cannot understand what Scripture means without the Holy
Spirit to reveal it. You might be able to see what it says, but you will
never know what was meant. The only thing left is darkness.
B - Prove again.

Bren
Remnant
2006-12-08 01:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Remnant
It was brought up because if you reject Jesus, or rejct His words, then
you
reject God.
B - Hey Remmy..Please Prove this. Also how do you know if I reject Jesus
or
Jesus's
words?
One must read carefuuly, or at least try to understand what the other is
saying for dialogue to occur.

I said "If" you reject Jesus. Further, I did not say "you - B.G." so you
are reading into my post something that is not there.

If I say you should look both ways before crossing the street, do you think
I am implying that you "B.G." is currently crossing the street? It was a
general comment.

Further, in terms of identifying who rejects Christ, there are a few
indicators: spiritual discernment, fruit of the flesh in predominant
manifestation, and words communicated.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Remnant
Post by B.G. Kent
As far as grammar and sentence structure...this too..has nothing to
do with what I have asked.
Yes, it does. The implication that one cannot use analogies or parables
at
any time without becoming suspect in everything you say either stems from
a
root of sarcasm or ignorance about grammar.
B - ........s (dots) are my way to show timing and space between words. I
do it because I do. Some folks never use capitalization or grammar...
LOL, I had not even noticed that you use dots. Guess I could read more
carefully as well. LOL

I was not speaking about the appearance of your text but the context of your
comments.
Post by B.G. Kent
that
does not at all bespeak their character.
I tend to pay more attention to the spirit of the letter than every jot
and tittle that gets written.
Post by Remnant
Similarly, one cannot understand what Scripture means without the Holy
Spirit to reveal it. You might be able to see what it says, but you will
never know what was meant. The only thing left is darkness.
B - Prove again.
Point proven actually by your words above.
Post by B.G. Kent
Bren
B.G. Kent
2006-12-09 02:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
One must read carefuuly, or at least try to understand what the other is
saying for dialogue to occur.
I said "If" you reject Jesus. Further, I did not say "you - B.G." so you
are reading into my post something that is not there.
B - So the collective "you" and not the personal? thankyou then...and I
apologize for jumping to such conclusions.
Post by Remnant
I was not speaking about the appearance of your text but the context of your
comments.
B - Well you try and understand me..and I will try to understand you okay?

:) is it a deal?

Blessings
Bren
Remnant
2006-12-11 02:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Remnant
One must read carefuuly, or at least try to understand what the other is
saying for dialogue to occur.
I said "If" you reject Jesus. Further, I did not say "you - B.G." so you
are reading into my post something that is not there.
B - So the collective "you" and not the personal? thankyou then...and I
apologize for jumping to such conclusions.
No problem. :-) I don't even know you so it would be downright
presumptuous for me to assume anything about you.
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Remnant
I was not speaking about the appearance of your text but the context of
your
comments.
B - Well you try and understand me..and I will try to understand you okay?
:) is it a deal?
That is a deal! I would shake your hand, but of course I cannot. LOL
B.G. Kent
2006-12-12 04:14:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Well you try and understand me..and I will try to understand you okay?
:) is it a deal?
That is a deal! I would shake your hand, but of course I cannot. LOL
B - We do it the cyber way...*shakes Rems hand,smiles and looks into eyes*
Nice to meet you friend.

Bren



*************************************************
Let love guide you in all you do.

*************************************************
Remnant
2006-12-13 04:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Remnant
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Well you try and understand me..and I will try to understand you
okay?
:) is it a deal?
That is a deal! I would shake your hand, but of course I cannot. LOL
B - We do it the cyber way...*shakes Rems hand,smiles and looks into eyes*
Nice to meet you friend.
Wow, that was really nice. My first cyperspace handshake. Thank You!!
:-)
B.G. Kent
2006-12-14 04:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
Post by B.G. Kent
Post by Remnant
Post by B.G. Kent
B - Well you try and understand me..and I will try to understand you
okay?
:) is it a deal?
That is a deal! I would shake your hand, but of course I cannot. LOL
B - We do it the cyber way...*shakes Rems hand,smiles and looks into eyes*
Nice to meet you friend.
Wow, that was really nice. My first cyperspace handshake. Thank You!!
:-)
B - Very welcome my friend. We may confuse each other but we both believe
in God and that is a good starting point I'd say.

Blessings
Bren



*************************************************
Let love guide you in all you do.

*************************************************
Bob
2006-12-05 02:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
The one prerequisite for becoming a homosexual is to be in love with one's
self. Sodomites are so consumed by self-love, they can only relate to those
who are like themselves.
Jesus gave us two COMMANDMENTS - (1) love God (2) love your neighbor
as yourself.
That leaves very little arguing space that Jesus wants us to love
ourselves. The more we love ourselves, the more love we should have
for our neighbor. Your statement is pure garbage!

(Why does this post remind me of Ted Haggard??)

Bob
Remnant
2006-12-06 04:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Remnant
The one prerequisite for becoming a homosexual is to be in love with one's
self. Sodomites are so consumed by self-love, they can only relate to those
who are like themselves.
Jesus gave us two COMMANDMENTS - (1) love God (2) love your neighbor
as yourself.
That leaves very little arguing space that Jesus wants us to love
ourselves.
Well, proper reading would help. The quote above defines self-love as being
"in love with one's self." That is not one of the commandments of God. In
fact, the message of Christ is to deny yourself.

Second, the Scripture says:

M't:22:37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
M't:22:38: This is the first and great commandment.
M't:22:39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
M't:22:40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This again talks about self-denial. If we love others as ourselves, then we
do not place ourselves, our desires, our wants above that of any one else.
In fact, in such a condition, we are more likely to deny ourselves because
we do nto have an elevated or exalted opinion of ourselves.

Love God - which means obedience to God's word - and do not exalt your self
over others so that you can follow God (self-denial).
Post by Bob
The more we love ourselves, the more love we should have
for our neighbor.
Now that is a convoluted and bakwards misrepresentation of Scripture. It
does not say to love yourself so you can love your neighbor. It says love
your neighbor as yourself. The neighbor is put before yourself, again
pointing to self-denial.

What you describe here is consistent with the posted text about self-love,
which is anti-christ. Not the message of Christ at all.
Bob
2006-12-08 01:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
This again talks about self-denial. If we love others as ourselves, then we
do not place ourselves, our desires, our wants above that of any one else.
In fact, in such a condition, we are more likely to deny ourselves because
we do nto have an elevated or exalted opinion of ourselves.
Post by Bob
The more we love ourselves, the more love we should have
for our neighbor.
Now that is a convoluted and bakwards misrepresentation of Scripture. It
does not say to love yourself so you can love your neighbor. It says love
your neighbor as yourself. The neighbor is put before yourself, again
pointing to self-denial.
What you describe here is consistent with the posted text about self-love,
which is anti-christ. Not the message of Christ at all.
No. I don't agree at all. The word "as" is meant to be "equal to". It
does not mean to love your neighbor more than you any more than it
means to love yourself more than your neighbor.

I believe that the bible was given to us as a message on how to conduct
our lives in order to avoid problems that may conflict with Gods will
for us as a populace. Therefore, what "love your neighbor AS yourself"
means is that if if you love yourself more than your neighbor, you may
begin to feel superior to your neighbor and act accordingly. If you
love your neighbor more than yourself, you may feel your neighbor is
better than you. Which could lead to resentment or low self esteem.
If you feel you and your neighbor are equals, problems for both are
avoided. And the quantity of love for each other dictates what our
interface with each other will be like. You use the term "self love"
as if it were a sin. I see no difference in "loving one's self" and
"self love".
Therefore the statement in my previous post still stands.

Bob
Remnant
2006-12-09 02:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Remnant
Post by Bob
The more we love ourselves, the more love we should have
for our neighbor.
Now that is a convoluted and bakwards misrepresentation of Scripture. It
does not say to love yourself so you can love your neighbor. It says
love your neighbor as yourself. The neighbor is put before yourself, again
pointing to self-denial.
What you describe here is consistent with the posted text about
self-love, which is anti-christ. Not the message of Christ at all.
No. I don't agree at all. The word "as" is meant to be "equal to". It
does not mean to love your neighbor more than you any more than it
means to love yourself more than your neighbor.
I believe that the bible was given to us as a message on how to conduct
our lives in order to avoid problems that may conflict with Gods will
for us as a populace.
I believe that the Scriptures are God's words telling us how to have a
relationship with Him.
Post by Bob
Therefore, what "love your neighbor AS yourself"
means is that if if you love yourself more than your neighbor, you may
begin to feel superior to your neighbor and act accordingly. If you
love your neighbor more than yourself, you may feel your neighbor is
better than you. Which could lead to resentment or low self esteem.
...

Self-love is a sin. The ultimate illustration of love if selflessness not
love of self. No greater love than this, that man would lay his life down
for his friends. In order to make that kind of sacrifice, man must think
more of his friends than of himself. For God so loved the world that He
gave Hi sonly begotten Son. Again, love will cause you to give your life
for others, not just treat them nicely or as you would like to be treated.
Post by Bob
Therefore the statement in my previous post still stands.
LOL. Your statement can stand. I was not trying to knock your statement at
all, only share what Scripture has to say on the subject.

Have a good evening.
Matthew Johnson
2006-12-09 02:29:50 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Bob
Post by Remnant
What you describe here is consistent with the posted text about
self-love, which is anti-christ. Not the message of Christ at all.
No. I don't agree at all. The word "as" is meant to be "equal
to".
But WHY do you believe this? The word in the text has a MUCH wider
range of possible meaning than that. If He had really meant to say
'equal to', He could have said WSPER instead of WS. But He did not
(Mat 22:39).
Post by Bob
It does not mean to love your neighbor more than you any more
than it means to love yourself more than your neighbor.
Oh, but it does. For if you read it in context, you will notice that
you are not to love yourself very much at all. How could you, while
you are obeying the command to _deny_ yourself (Mat 16:24)?
Post by Bob
I believe that the bible was given to us as a message on how to conduct
our lives in order to avoid problems that may conflict with Gods will
for us as a populace.
And is that _all_ it is given for, according to your belief?
Post by Bob
Therefore, what "love your neighbor AS yourself"
means is that if if you love yourself more than your neighbor, you may
begin to feel superior to your neighbor and act accordingly.
I don't know why you started that sentence with 'therefore'; it does
NOT follow logically as a consequence of what you just said before it.
Post by Bob
If you
love your neighbor more than yourself, you may feel your neighbor is
better than you.
That could be a good thing.
Post by Bob
Which could lead to resentment or low self esteem.
Not if you have your faith in God. Resentment, or "low self-esteem (in
the relevant sense)" result ONLY if you are relying on yourself, in
which case feeling your neighbor better than you fills you with
hopelessness.
Post by Bob
If you feel you and your neighbor are equals, problems for both are
avoided.
But this is not the only wya to avoid it. The FAR better way is to
heed the wisdom of St. Augustine as expressed in my sig file.
Post by Bob
And the quantity of love for each other dictates what our
interface with each other will be like.
Not by itself it does not. The _quality_ is even more important than
the quality. That IS the point of the distinction Augustine described
between the good 'self love' and the evil 'self love'.
Post by Bob
You use the term "self love"
as if it were a sin.
And unless it is a very special kind, it _is_ evil. It is even the
breeding ground for all the evil passions.
Post by Bob
I see no difference in "loving one's self" and
"self love".
And that is the problem. Your failure to see.
Post by Bob
Therefore the statement in my previous post still stands.
No, it does not. You can say nothing good about 'self-love' until you
learn the distinction between the good and the evil self-love. That
difference was described at length in Augustine's Sermon 96, but in
summary form in this one classic line of his:

Subducat se sibi
(he steals himself away from himself -- for himself)
ut haereat Deo
(in order to cling to God)
quidquid bonum habet (habeat?)
(whatever good he has)
tribuat Deo a quo factus est
(he attributes to God who made him)

This is the vital difference between the good self-love and the evil!
Renouncing self, ultimately _for_ self, to cling to God, who gives your
self back to you, having benefited it FAR better than all your own
self-love could ever do.
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Bob
2006-12-11 02:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Bob
No. I don't agree at all. The word "as" is meant to be "equal
to".
But WHY do you believe this? The word in the text has a MUCH wider
range of possible meaning than that. If He had really meant to say
'equal to', He could have said WSPER instead of WS. But He did not
(Mat 22:39).
Spoken as a true Literalist. Why do I believe this? Perhaps it's
because the Holy Spirit told me that's what it means. If the bible is
man's words inspired by the Holy Spirit, WHY would not the Holy Spirit
inspire those who read those words? You believe there is only one
meaning for the bible - the words taken literally. I believe the
individual words are not as important as the message those words bring
to the reader. If the reader is truly trying to understand the message,
the Holy Spirit will inspire the reader. I do not believe that God
would make the words of the bible decipherable only to the most
scholarly of this earth.
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Bob
I believe that the bible was given to us as a message on how to conduct
our lives in order to avoid problems that may conflict with Gods will
for us as a populace.
And is that _all_ it is given for, according to your belief?
All? No. Primary? Yes
Post by Matthew Johnson
I don't know why you started that sentence with 'therefore'; it does
NOT follow logically as a consequence of what you just said before it.
Spoken like a true Literalist.
Matthew Johnson
2006-12-12 04:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Matthew Johnson
Post by Bob
No. I don't agree at all. The word "as" is meant to be "equal
to".
But WHY do you believe this? The word in the text has a MUCH wider
range of possible meaning than that. If He had really meant to say
'equal to', He could have said WSPER instead of WS. But He did not
(Mat 22:39).
Spoken as a true Literalist.
And yet if you do your homework, you would know that I am no 'Literalist'.
Post by Bob
Why do I believe this? Perhaps it's
because the Holy Spirit told me that's what it means.
Well, that is not very convincing. I have heard too many people claim that the
Holy Spriit told them this, that or the next thing -- yet they all disagreed.

The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. But the plethora of people
making claims like yours _are_ teaching confusion. You are no exception,
unfortunately.
Post by Bob
If the bible is
man's words inspired by the Holy Spirit,
Who calls it this?
Post by Bob
WHY would not the Holy Spirit
inspire those who read those words?
You miss the point. Belief that hte Holy Spirit inspired the authors does NOT
confer any similar inspiration of the readers. The readers have no such claim to
infallibility.
Post by Bob
You believe there is only one
meaning for the bible - the words taken literally.
This is not true. Your error in jumping to this conclusion shows we cannot trust
your other conclusions either.

[snip]
--
-------------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
Quidquid boni habet tribuat illi a quo factus est
(Sanctus Aurelius Augustinus, Ser. 96)
Bob
2006-12-18 03:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Remnant
Self-love is a sin. The ultimate illustration of love if selflessness not
love of self. No greater love than this, that man would lay his life down
for his friends. In order to make that kind of sacrifice, man must think
more of his friends than of himself. For God so loved the world that He
gave Hi sonly begotten Son. Again, love will cause you to give your life
for others, not just treat them nicely or as you would like to be treated.
If one lays down his life for a friend out of love for that friend,
your example is certainly true. But quite often one will lay down his
life, or at least put his life in danger, for a complete stranger, with
no sense of love involved. I think that is a part of human nature -
possibly preservation of the species.
I still see no problem with self-love, unless it becomes an obsession.
The same can be said of eating vs gluttony, rest vs sloth, desire vs
envy, and all the other 7 deadly sins. They only become sins when they
are carried to excess. We are taught that God loves us. We are taught
that love is to be shared. So why shouldn't we love ourselves also?

Bob
Remnant
2006-12-19 03:46:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Remnant
Self-love is a sin. The ultimate illustration of love if selflessness
not
love of self. No greater love than this, that man would lay his life
down
for his friends. In order to make that kind of sacrifice, man must think
more of his friends than of himself. For God so loved the world that He
gave Hi sonly begotten Son. Again, love will cause you to give your life
for others, not just treat them nicely or as you would like to be
treated.
If one lays down his life for a friend out of love for that friend,
your example is certainly true. But quite often one will lay down his
life, or at least put his life in danger, for a complete stranger, with
no sense of love involved. I think that is a part of human nature -
possibly preservation of the species.
I still see no problem with self-love, unless it becomes an obsession.
The same can be said of eating vs gluttony, rest vs sloth, desire vs
envy, and all the other 7 deadly sins. They only become sins when they
are carried to excess. We are taught that God loves us. We are taught
that love is to be shared. So why shouldn't we love ourselves also?
Bob
I understand your point and your logic. However, it is still against
Scripture. Man is born selfish, seeking interests of one's self and trying
to fulfill one's desires. This is man at his worse. It doesn't take much
love to love yourself. It takes more sacrifice to love others.

Lastly, it is God alone who defines love and He has; it is selflessness.
B.G. Kent
2006-12-19 03:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Remnant
Self-love is a sin. The ultimate illustration of love if selflessness not
love of self. No greater love than this, that man would lay his life down
for his friends. In order to make that kind of sacrifice, man must think
more of his friends than of himself. For God so loved the world that He
gave Hi sonly begotten Son. Again, love will cause you to give your life
for others, not just treat them nicely or as you would like to be treated.
If one lays down his life for a friend out of love for that friend,
your example is certainly true. But quite often one will lay down his
life, or at least put his life in danger, for a complete stranger, with
no sense of love involved. I think that is a part of human nature -
possibly preservation of the species.
I still see no problem with self-love, unless it becomes an obsession.
The same can be said of eating vs gluttony, rest vs sloth, desire vs
envy, and all the other 7 deadly sins. They only become sins when they
are carried to excess. We are taught that God loves us. We are taught
that love is to be shared. So why shouldn't we love ourselves also?
Bob
B - Loving oneself is seeing the beauty in Gods creation I
figure....loving oneself to excess...as you say....is loving beyond God
because you tend to love yourself more than others almost saying you are
better. There is no better or worse in God...we are all ONE.

I.M.O
Bren



****************************************

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not
believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in
your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the
authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions
because they have been handed down for many generations. But after
observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with
reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then
accept it and live up to it"
- Siddhartha Gautama -

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