Styles of Worship

[DKleinecke]

Like most people in the United States the inauguration of Barack Obama
as the 44th President was an event that made me think. Not so much
about Obama, whom I have enthusiastically supported since long before
the election, but about Rick Warren.

I cannot see why, given we are going to have a public prayer, that
Rick Warren is not well qualified to give it. I don't agree with
homophobic pronouncements, but I see no reason why that should
disqualify him from leading public prayer.

It is public prayer that bothers me.

Once upon a time, when I was quite young, I read Matthew 6:5-6: "And
when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they
love to pray standing in the Synagogues, and in the corners of the
streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they
have their reward. But thou when thou prayest, enter into thy closet,
and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy father which is in
secret, and thy father which seeth in secret, shall reward thee
openly." (KJV).

I compared what I read there with the practices of the humble
Protestant church I then attended and I found my church wanting. It
took years of consideration, but in the end I left that church and
became unchurched. And unchurched I have remained all my life.

Public prayer makes me nervous and I avoid occasions where I am forced
to take part. I feel about public prayer approximately like a good
Christian would feel if he were asked to recite the Quran along with
the rest of the congregation. When forced I go along - I am not trying
to start a fight, merely to address God properly.

To me the amazing thing is that people who claim to read and follow
the Bible never seem to read this passage. Or if they do read it they
cannot hear what it says.

I think it is obvious that Jesus did not approve of public prayer. Why
can't he be heard?

[d***@aol.com]

Post by DKleinecke
I think it is obvious that Jesus did not approve of public prayer. Why
can't he be heard?

I think you will find the weight of scripture directly contrary to
that, many times, especially in the OT God responds to just that type
of prayer, Jesus is talking about self aggrandizing prayer here,
something said to show one's piety before men, not all public prayer.

CF. 2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves,
and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will
I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their
land.

No one is required, or usually even asked to recite these prayers. I
have never been offended by listening to a rabbi or moslem pray, and
it seems a sure sign that a person is rather insecure in their own
convictions if such a thing offends them

Daryl

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by DKleinecke
To me the amazing thing is that people who claim to read and follow
the Bible never seem to read this passage. Or if they do read it they
cannot hear what it says.
I think it is obvious that Jesus did not approve of public prayer. Why
can't he be heard?

John 11:41-42
"So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father,
I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me,
but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they
may believe that you sent me"

Jesus not only prays publicly, but states he said the prayer for the
benefit of those standing and listening.
So it would be the WRONG lesson to draw that Jesus did not approve of
public prayer.
The passage you quoted obviously deals with hypocrisy. Jesus states it
clearly.
Perhaps you need to get back into church and sit under some good
teaching.

[Gospel Man]

I agree with the other's that, Jesus is not against public prayer. If
you are a Christian, you really do need to get back into a Bible
teaching church.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by Gospel Man
I agree with the other's that, Jesus is not against public prayer. If
you are a Christian, you really do need to get back into a Bible
teaching church.

B - curious..why so? Why squeeze ourselves into one mode of expression
time
and time again?
I see that, personally, as idolatry.

Bren

[d***@aol.com]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by Gospel Man
I agree with the other's that, Jesus is not against public prayer. If
you are a Christian, you really do need to get back into a Bible
teaching church.

B - curious..why so? Why squeeze ourselves into one mode of expression
time
and time again?
I see that, personally, as idolatry.
Bren

Sorry Bren, I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean prayer? You find
communicating with God to be idolatry? I don't mean to misinterpret
your remarks but I am not sure what you are saying.

Daryl

[B.G. Kent]

Post by d***@aol.com

Post by B.G. Kent
I see that, personally, as idolatry.
Bren

Sorry Bren, I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean prayer? You find
communicating with God to be idolatry? I don't mean to misinterpret
your remarks but I am not sure what you are saying.
Daryl

B - I find the dependance on the Bible as the soul voice of God
as "idolatry". For me, it places more importance on a book that can be
destroyed and scattered to the winds than on the inner voice of God
himself.

This however is my belief and I don't ask anyone to agree with me.

Blessings
Bren

[DKleinecke]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - I find the dependance on the Bible as the soul voice of God
as "idolatry". For me, it places more importance on a book that can be
destroyed and scattered to the winds than on the inner voice of God
himself.
This however is my belief and I don't ask anyone to agree with me.

Have no concern about me. I am not about to attend a Bible-worshiping
church. If I do ever feel the need for a church I will go to the
Quakers (which is my ancestral church though I was not raised as a
Quaker there being no meeting for miles in every direction) or the
Unitarians (who will tolerate anything).

I remain astounded that people cannot see Jesus' absolutely clear
rejection of public prayer. To me it demonstrates the human capacity
for self-deception. If bible-readers can see such a passage in plain
print and repeat it and never once hear what it says they are capable
of believing anything.

I have speculated that if Jesus had said anything like "Women are just
as good as men and should be given all the rights and respect that men
get" it would not be in the Bible. His disciple, all men, would hear
the words and say "oh, he can't possibly have meant that" and would
have forgotten instantly. More like the "Life of Brian" than the
"Life of Jesus". This exchange seems to me to justify me in my belief.

I wonder how much (more?) of Jesus' teachings were lost because what
they said were too hard for the listeners to hear.

[B.G. Kent]

Post by DKleinecke
church. If I do ever feel the need for a church I will go to the
Quakers (which is my ancestral church though I was not raised as a
Quaker there being no meeting for miles in every direction) or the
Unitarians (who will tolerate anything).

B - My father's people (some) were Quakers as well!
What I like about them as they see that God speaks to all of us and that
there is no heirarchy as far as God is concerned. I admire that about
them. I also like that many Quakers had no problem in attending an open
pagan ceremony here once. They went because one of my Wiccan friends is also a
Quaker and they were curious. They came,got involved and had a nice time
and were very respectful. It was so lovely to see two different faiths get
along so well with genuine love and no need to try and convert one
another. I agree with what you said about Jesus and women as well.

Blessings
Bren

[d***@aol.com]

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by d***@aol.com

Post by B.G. Kent
I see that, personally, as idolatry.
Bren

Sorry Bren, I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean prayer? You find
communicating with God to be idolatry? I don't mean to misinterpret
your remarks but I am not sure what you are saying.
Daryl

B - I find the dependance on the Bible as the soul voice of God
as "idolatry". For me, it places more importance on a book that can be
destroyed and scattered to the winds than on the inner voice of God
himself.
This however is my belief and I don't ask anyone to agree with me.
Blessings
Bren

I wouldn't disagree, some people carry dependence on the Bible to the
point of worship, but I wouldn't think hearing someone express
religious ideas in public would harm anyone. God is always speaking to
us and that voice should be the central focus, but He spoke to Paul
and John and the rest as well. I think it is just as bad to ignore
those who were around at the pivotal time of human history as it is to
deify what they have written.
Do not think though that there are not people who don't want anyone to
be exposed to Christ, so insecure and selfish that they will not
tolerate the comfort and unity that we get from coming together as a
community to speak with God. Those expressions may be imperfect, and
often express doctrine that I, personally may not agree with, but
there is a greater good here than just expounding a particular point
of view, there is a belonging, knowing that we can stand before the
same Master as our neighbor. Why should that offend?

Daryl

[B.G. Kent]

Post by d***@aol.com
often express doctrine that I, personally may not agree with, but
there is a greater good here than just expounding a particular point
of view, there is a belonging, knowing that we can stand before the
same Master as our neighbor. Why should that offend?
Daryl

B - doesn't offend me at all. It is more the dogma that is slung at others
that they will writhe in a firey pit when they go because they don't
belong to their church/club/what have you...the disrespect thrown at
others who think differently..the adherence that they are right because
they say so! The labeling all others not of their "way" as doomed and evil
that offends me. There is a real ignorance and lack of humility in people
that say "It is because I say it is" instead of "in my opinion..I think it
is..." Even if you have the strongest belief that you are correct...you
will offend others if you run roughshod over their own beliefs and this
does not unify but tears us apart. We had a week go by on Christan Unity
and I did not hear anyone (myself included) speak on it. It is as if we
all would rather live in our own little exclusionary cliques rather than
come together under Christ. I apologize for my part in not speaking about
it.

Blessings
Bren

[d***@aol.com]

Post by B.G. Kent
B - doesn't offend me at all. It is more the dogma that is slung at others
that they will writhe in a firey pit when they go because they don't
belong to their church/club/what have you...the disrespect thrown at
others who think differently..the adherence that they are right because
they say so!

You have heard this often in public prayer ??? Would you put Christ in
that category cf. Matthew 25? Don't they believe they are right
because they believe that is what God says? If you had a friend that
you thought was going to burn up in a building that was on fire
wouldn't it be prudent to alert him even if he didn't see the flames?
I confess I don't recall this sort of thing being mentioned in any
public prayer though, perhaps you have an instance?


The labeling all others not of their "way" as doomed and evil

Post by B.G. Kent
that offends me. There is a real ignorance and lack of humility in people
that say "It is because I say it is" instead of "in my opinion..I think it
is..." Even if you have the strongest belief that you are correct...you
will offend others if you run roughshod over their own beliefs and this
does not unify but tears us apart.

What if one of their beliefs is that you must accept their way or be
put to death? Is it running roughshod if you tell them that is not
right?
I, again, don't know anyone who says "because I say it is," but
everything, even contradictions cannot be true, someone must be wrong.

We had a week go by on Christan Unity

Post by B.G. Kent
and I did not hear anyone (myself included) speak on it. It is as if we
all would rather live in our own little exclusionary cliques rather than
come together under Christ. I apologize for my part in not speaking about
it.

The only way all the beliefs can be equal is if they are all equally
wrong. I don't know how much emphasis God puts on correct doctrine, I
have my own behavior to account for, but there are those who would
deny us all the solace of community prayer, I think they are simply
petty, insecure, obnoxious, and bitter and it bothers me that our
courts seem to want to appease that sort of behavior.

Daryl

[B.G. Kent]

Post by d***@aol.com

Post by B.G. Kent
B - doesn't offend me at all. It is more the dogma that is slung at others
that they will writhe in a firey pit when they go because they don't

You have heard this often in public prayer ??? Would you put Christ in

B - Yes I have. I think I would be upset if a person was yelling fire!
fire! to save my life when there was no fire but just a book about a fire
that may have happenned or may happen. I would find it rather annoying.

Post by d***@aol.com
What if one of their beliefs is that you must accept their way or be
put to death? Is it running roughshod if you tell them that is not

B - Yes it is. However I don't tell them this. I question where their
proof is and how I am supposed to believe them if they cannot offer proof.
I also would nod and say "that's your opinion" but it's not mine. If they
followed me and screamed in my ear I would suspect I'd get a police to
control them because they would be harassing me.
I believe in respect shared by all.

Post by d***@aol.com
everything, even contradictions cannot be true, someone must be wrong.

B - in your opinion.

Post by d***@aol.com
have my own behavior to account for, but there are those who would
deny us all the solace of community prayer, I think they are simply
petty, insecure, obnoxious, and bitter and it bothers me that our
courts seem to want to appease that sort of behavior.

B - I would never do this. I have no problem with community prayer as long
as all agree on praying. I'm a fan of democracy.

Post by d***@aol.com
Daryl

Bren

[d***@aol.com]

Post by B.G. Kent

B - doesn't offend me at all. It is more the dogma that is slung at o=

thers

Post by B.G. Kent

that they will writhe in a firey pit when they go because they don't

You have heard this often in public prayer ??? Would you put Christ in>

B - Yes I have. I think I would be upset if a person was yelling fire!
fire! to save my life when there was no fire but just a book about a fire
that may have happenned or may happen. I would find it rather annoying.

You are going to have to argue with the author of the book then.
I haven't heard anything but blessing in public prayer, asking for God
to guide and protect. Of course there are those who are threatened by
this, they don't want any moral authority to be respected, it might
make their behavior unpopular.

Post by B.G. Kent

What if one of their beliefs is that you must accept their way or be
put to death? Is it running roughshod if you tell them that is not

B - Yes it is. However I don't tell them this. I question where their
proof is and how I am supposed to believe them if they cannot offer proof=

.

Post by B.G. Kent
I also would nod and say "that's your opinion" but it's not mine. If they
followed me and screamed in my ear I would suspect I'd get a police to
control them because they would be harassing me.
I believe in respect shared by all.

Very nice, and when they kidnap someone you love, put them on a video
and chop off their head? To general approval of one third of the
population of the world?

Post by B.G. Kent

everything, even contradictions cannot be true, someone must be wrong.

B - in your opinion.

Yes, and in logic and reason, one of the basic tenets of logic is the
law of the excluded middle, not both A and notA.

Post by B.G. Kent

have my own behavior to account for, but there are those who would
deny us all the solace of community prayer, I think they are simply
petty, insecure, obnoxious, and bitter and it bothers me that our
courts seem to want to appease that sort of behavior.

B - I would never do this. I have no problem with community prayer as lon=

g

Post by B.G. Kent
as all agree on praying. I'm a fan of democracy.

If you have a million people who want to pray and one who would rather
not,(that is not required to, btw), and you tell them they can't,
where is the democracy?

Daryl

Post by B.G. Kent
Bren

[B.G. Kent]

Post by d***@aol.com
Very nice, and when they kidnap someone you love, put them on a video
and chop off their head? To general approval of one third of the
population of the world?

B - I use the guidance of God to show me to what is right. I don't need to
whip out a book and go looking up answers everytime something happens to
me. God infuses us with instincts and knowledge of what is right. The
Bible does help but our inner guidance (given by God) is far superior I
would opine. If I just went with whatever someone said to me because they
waved a book in my face I could believe anything. We all use our own
guidance within to decide if we are to follow the Bible, whether
literally, reading inbetween the lines, or a meshing of the two, and we
use it for many other things as well. If we read the Bible and follow it
because we are being given after-death threats and paranoided into it..it
is not a true belief but one borne of fear..and love casts out all fear. I
choose to belief how I believe as you do. Fear mongerers do nothing to me
but annoy to a small degree.

Post by d***@aol.com

Post by B.G. Kent

Post by d***@aol.com
everything, even contradictions cannot be true, someone must be wrong.

B - in your opinion.

Yes, and in logic and reason, one of the basic tenets of logic is the
law of the excluded middle, not both A and notA.

B - Sorry..but if is always subjective. Take two people..one living on
earth and one living on a planet above earth...ask them both where heaven
is
and if one person above us is living with our earth above his head...when
they both point up...they are pointing at each other's worlds. Both are
right (if we see the mythological concept of heaven being "up") and both
wrong perhaps..it always has to do with subjectivity.
Scratch "logic" and using quantum physics you will always find
inconsistancies that seem illogical..I embrace both.

Post by d***@aol.com
If you have a million people who want to pray and one who would rather
not,(that is not required to, btw), and you tell them they can't,
where is the democracy?

B - why would I tell them they can't? That is where tolerance for each
other (and respect) comes in.

Post by d***@aol.com
Daryl

Post by B.G. Kent
Bren

Bren

[d***@aol.com]

B - I use the guidance of God to show me to what is right. I don't need t=

o

whip out a book and go looking up answers everytime something happens to
me. God infuses us with instincts and knowledge of what is right. The
Bible does help but our inner guidance (given by God) is far superior I
would opine.

Not always, people make really bad choices based on their own
feelings, you need some sort of standard. I too rely on God's
guidance, but it is not inner at all, sometimes He has to straighten
me out rather harshly, but always with love. The book of Judges was
written to show what happens when people "do what is right in their
own eyes"

=A0If I just went with whatever someone said to me because they

waved a book in my face I could believe anything. We all use our own
guidance within to decide if we are to follow the Bible, whether
literally, reading inbetween the lines, or a meshing of the two, and we
use it for many other things as well. =A0If we read the Bible and follow =

it

because we are being given after-death threats and paranoided into it..it
is not a true belief but one borne of fear..and love casts out all fear. =

I

choose to belief how I believe as you do. Fear mongerers do nothing to me
but annoy to a small degree.

(too many er's there I think :-) ) Oh, I don't think they are very
effective anyway, do you? But I am required to love them as well, and
sometimes they really intend to do good. I would try to turn them to a
more fruitful course, some more effective way of bringing people to
Christ.

Post by d***@aol.com

Post by B.G. Kent

everything, even contradictions cannot be true, someone must be wro=

ng.

Post by d***@aol.com

Post by B.G. Kent
B - in your opinion.

Yes, and in logic and reason, one of the basic tenets of logic is the
law of the excluded middle, not both =A0A and notA.

B - Sorry..but if is always subjective. Take two people..one living on
earth and one living on a planet above earth...ask them both where heaven
is
and if one person above us is living with our earth above his head...when
they both point up...they are pointing at each other's worlds. =A0Both ar=

e

right (if we see the mythological concept of heaven being "up") and both
wrong perhaps..it always has to do with subjectivity.

Sorry, the mythological concept is just that, a mythological concept,
meant to metaphorically convey a principle not to provide a concrete
referent, we know heaven is not really "up" (which is why the
cosmonauts observations were so silly.) Its actual existance is not
subjective at all, either it is, wherever it is, or it is not.

Scratch "logic" and using quantum physics you will always find
inconsistancies that seem illogical..I embrace both.

They seem inconsistant because they do not operate like the
macroscopic world, our understanding is incomplete, they are, no
doubt, behaving just as they should. Besides, it is not really
relevent how we feel about these things, what is relevent is how God
feels about them. We may not be comfortable with His positions, but, I
agree with the title of the play "Your arms too short to box with
God."

Post by d***@aol.com
If you have a million people who want to pray and one who would rather
not,(that is not required to, btw), and you tell them they can't,
where is the democracy?

B - why would I tell them they can't? That is where tolerance for each
other (and respect) comes in.

Curious... I thought you were against public prayer? Perhaps I mistook
your position. I apologize.

Daryl

[DKleinecke]

Post by d***@aol.com
but there are those who would
deny us all the solace of community prayer, I think they are simply
petty, insecure, obnoxious, and bitter

I loop back to where I started.

It seems to me that you have just described Jesus as "petty, insecure,
obnoxious, and bitter". I cannot believe that is what you meant. But
neither can I guess what you meant instead.

Post by d***@aol.com
and it bothers me that our courts seem to want to appease that sort of be=

havior.

And that implies that you want our courts, even though they are sworn
to rule against the establishment of any church, to allow people in
positions of authority to force their underlings to take part in
public prayer.

It is not necessary for me to argue that forcing people to pray is
unfair. Prayer that is a solace to one can be poison to another. All
I need to point out is that forced prayer is not prayer at all - in
the intended meaning of prayer.

[d***@aol.com]

Post by DKleinecke

Post by d***@aol.com
but there are those who would
deny us all the solace of community prayer, I think they are simply
petty, insecure, obnoxious, and bitter

I loop back to where I started.
It seems to me that you have just described Jesus as "petty, insecure,
obnoxious, and bitter". =A0I cannot believe that is what you meant. But
neither can I guess what you meant instead.

Sure you can, I think you simply missed the point of what Jesus was
talking about.

Post by DKleinecke

Post by d***@aol.com
and it bothers me that our courts seem to want to appease that sort of =

be=3D

Post by DKleinecke
havior.
And that implies that you want our courts, even though they are sworn
to rule against the establishment of any church, to allow people in
positions of authority to force their underlings to take part in
public prayer.

Of course, no one has to "take part" they can just ignore the whole
thing if they choose. I would suggest you look into the history of the
"establishment of religion" clause, and what sort of tyranny people
were avoiding when they came to this country. We do not have a
national church, nor a national religion precisely because no one
wanted to be denied the right to express themslves publicly for fear
of government interference. I think you will find that the only people
whose public expression is suppressed these days are people of faith.

Post by DKleinecke
It is not necessary for me to argue that forcing people to pray is
unfair. =A0Prayer that is a solace to one can be poison to another. All
I need to point out is that forced prayer is not prayer at all - in
the intended meaning of prayer.

I agree, and if someone forces you to pray I would object just as much
as if they forbid it. Were you threatened if you did not pray? Tell me
who did it and I will certainly join you in condemning the practice.

Daryl

[B.G. Kent]

Post by d***@aol.com
of government interference. I think you will find that the only people
whose public expression is suppressed these days are people of faith.

B - Sometimes the suppressors consider themselves "Christian" as well.

Post by d***@aol.com
Daryl

Bren
(before we point out the mote in another's eye it is best to note the
log in our own eye)